i know most christians see us atheists as condescending "know it all" douchebags who always seem to have an answer for anything. some even see us as worshipers of the devil or as "hostile" towards christians.
actually we are none of that. we are in the same boat with you christians. just like you, we don´t know where we came from and what our purpose is. that´s basically all we do. we say we don´t know. now we are interested in what there is to know so we usually have some theories or are quite informed as to what new scientific findings are which is why would sometimes seem like a know at all.
however we just don´t know either. for us god is one of many possible "ideas" that can explain why we exist but for us that explanation just doesn´t seem as the most likely and we don´t acknowledge it as the one to believe as our brains are seeking for evidence and can´t be satisfied with "assuming".
we actually just don´t know if god exists or not, you may say "well then you´re an agnostic not an atheist", which is not quite right, cause agnostics do believe that it can´t be known if a god exits or not. atheists don´t know. they just don´t think it is the case and that´s all she wrote.
for you believers out there: if you want a non "agressive" discussion of your spirituality with a atheist: just don´t try to prove the existance of god or ask for explanations of things that "can´t be explained otherwise". you can´t. you will lose this battle. you should always express that this is something you believe. and you will maybe have to open your eyes a bit and go back a little from what your believe, cause i´ve experienced that some believe directly contradicts with reality. there is a place for your believe in god and that specific spirituality. but this can´t be discussed inside logic. just be aware of this tiny little fact. you have to discuss outside of logic. only then you can have a respectfull conversation with atheists, cause atheists do understand sentimentality and irrationality but if you try to make it logical and rational, you will fail.
just wanted to get that out of my mind. peace.
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Don't forget that atheism isn't a religion. And that the only thing we have in common is the lack of belief in a god.
Well I thought that one was not actually a misconception XD are there people who actually think that?
A-theos - atheism A being a negative prefix 'without', theos = god in Greek.
And no, atheists didn't pick that name for themselves: it was given to them by Christians in the 16th century
www.etymonline.com/index.php
Yes. It's crazy.
@jacquesvol i mean it doesn´t really matter what name you give it. heathen, atheist, infidel, nonbeliever. all the same. but it´s funny cause specially christians are only 1% less "atheistic" than "atheists" are. since they only believe in one god and not in all the 99% of other gods xD (obviously arbitrary number cause i don´t know how many gods there are).
well apparently i can´t amend my take xD so much for that... don´t wanna write a new one.
How many gods? Start here:
http://i.imgur.com/7czUHfp.jpg
@jacquesvol me stating i don´t know how many there are doesn´t imply i want to know xD
but that list is cool to show christians their hypocrisy
@genericname85 Those are only gods of people who knew writing and whose writings have been decyphered (or were in contact with other people who knew)
The way you describe yourself is agnostic, rather than atheist?
I described the difference between an agnostic and an atheist in my take. There is a clear distinction. Both atheists and agnostics do not know if there is a God or not. The difference is that agnostics believe it can't be known if there's a God or not and atheists just don't believe there is a God.
You did; but to me the key distinction is your statement "we just don´t know".
To me, the sine qua non of atheism is hostility to any religion (and that hostility seems directed almost entirely at Christianity while giving far more strict and dogmatic religions like Islam a pass).
we are not hostile against religion. we just don´t believe in god. and we are aesily aggravated by stupid questions like "if there was no god, then why bla bla bla" xD cause we don´t believe in god. we may or may not know the answer to the question but we don´t believe the answer is god so if a religious person then commences to brag about winning the discussion about "existence of god" cause we atheists didn´t know the answer to their stupid arbitrary question, it makes us very angry xD cause we know that those religious people don´t know the answer either. they just accept god as an answer and by that they think they are intellectual superior, which they aren´t.
like it´s ok to believe in god. i have no issues if anybody believes in god. but i have an issue when somebody uses their "god" as legitimation for some morally questionable stuff or as scapegoat to mask their own disapproval (the infamous "you´re going to hell for this") or if someone tries explaining scientific shit with god, which is just not compatible at all.
OK, that's fair, I get that. I could see atheists who roll their eyes with disgust at the histronic militant anti-religious atheists, just at there are Christian believers who roll their eyes at the ones who start handling rattlesnakes and babbling while believing they are "speaking in tongues".
There are far worse creeds to live by than Live And Let Live.
i personally just live by the categorical imperative. i find that to be the easiest yet most perfect moral for living peacefully together.
you see atheists and religious people do have dumb people among them. that´s just a fact. but if a christian says some dumb shit, he can be associated to "christians". if a muslim killed himself for his believe, he can be associated to muslims. but if an atheist does something stupid, you can´t reflect that on atheism. they were just s dumb individual XD that´s it.
I'm atheit and I would need PROOF to believe a god exists.
*atheist
(Typo)
Yeah but the existence of a good is a "theoretical" possibly. Not a very likely one which is why we atheists don't believe it but it still is a possibility. We can only discuss why we believe it or not, not if it is a possibility or not.
God*
*possible... My phone just fucks it up every time.
Possibility... XD
Of course , by changing definitions it's possible to create a god: Knowing that Earth get's an immense benefit from the Sun, naming the Sun a god can be considered. The ancient Egyptians did it: Atum/Aten/Ra.
yeah i know. it´s just a mystified label for the unknown that people love to believe in instead of just accepting their lack of knowledge. it wouldn´t be such a problem if people didn't prefer to keep the "spaceholder" for not knowing, when actually we get to know new knowledge.
its not very likely for anything to exist in the first place, with or without a god. Life is basically one big paradox and our existence seems to be something that defied all odds. Whats important is we are here, but these questions are FAR from our understanding. The more we learn about our universe and its laws, the stranger things get. I like the curiosity that builds up though, which is why I am going into the field of quantum mechanics
@imbored2252 in infinity, odds are kind of irrelevant XD also I love Neil DeGrasse Tysons analogy of knowledge. The more the volume of things we know grows, the more grows the circumference of stuff we don't know.
the odds may be irreverent, but they are still staggering also, thats a great analogy
@imbored2252 I mean some odds are higher than certain other odds. For example I do think that the odds for other intelligent life in the universe are reasonably high to assume it exists.
but those odds are contradicted by the fermi paradox
@imbored2252 it's not actually a perfect paradox. There are multiple logic assumptions that disable the paradox.
1 intelligent life is just way more rare than the paradox assumes as the parameters for existing life are way more complex than it assumes.
2. What if we are actually among the top evolved life forms? In that case other life forms would merely be out of reach.
3 if another life form was so advanced that they could travel the universe, they would probably not have the slightest interest in us and just by coincidence have not yet crossed our way.
4. We actually met them before as some ancient societies artworks do have some hints for that.
@genericname85 https://i.imgur.com/ieYk1BM.jpg
the problem with the concept of god in the abrahamic religion i that it doesn´t explain anything. it jut create more questions that woudln´t have been there without the stupid meme xD
'God' or 'devil' are the primitive answers to replace all "I don't know" answers.
ancient Greeks considered Earth a godess: Gaya.
well ancient vikings believed the sun was hauled accross the sky by some dude and his horse xD and the 4 edges of the world were held by dwarfs.
Some Ancient Greeks believed Helios carried the Sun across the sky, using a chariot of fire.
yeah ancient greek mythology is super close to norse mytholigy, which i find quite fascinating :D
Those polytheists had a god for everything they saw happen without understanding it. Thus the parallels aren't illogical.
yeah i know. which i find actually quite a bit more intelligent than monotheism. cause this implies that you differenciate and don´t just see one cause for everything.
no, the odds of the drake equation state that in our galaxy alone there are 60 billion habitable planets. 60 billion is a HUGE number, and to assume out of the 60 billion (not including All the other galaxies) that we are the most advanced goes against all odds and defies logic. yes, it is possible, but its not plausible nor is there any reason to think that what you are saying is most likely the case. the drake equation is staggering for stating how likely the odds are and the numbers of plausible life on other planets defies what you are telling me right now. This is where the fermi paradox comes in, which oversteps all these assumptions that were just made. there is no proof of aliens, and paintings on a wall is is not proof.
and cross contamination in our orbit, or from the mars rover is not proof either. Also, those paintings on the wall a lot of the time, have to do with art depictions of people taking DMT as it this substance goes back to the beginning of recorded history. dont believe me? look at people describing their ''trips'' on Ayahuasca and in retreats and people smoking dmt. They describe the same entities. Ant people, weird humanoids with animal heads etc.. people claiming to see aliens etc.. Im not saying its fake, but back then civilizations such as the mayans, egyptians etc.. used drugs for spiritual reasons which is where groups like shammas come from in the first place in our modern world. This did not stop once the ancient people died out, its just not that known anymore
@imbored2252 we don´t have a perfectly accurate cataloque yet as to what parameters are neccessary to actually form life, thos those guesstimates are still quite vague.
i´m not saying those paintings are proof we don´t have proof but we have way more reason to see this as a possibility... i´m just saying the possibility is there and much more likely than god.
i mean we are the only one example we know of life forming xD isn´t it a bit hubristic to assume we can accurately tell where life should exist? i mean sure we do have found some planets that have big similarities to ours but that doesn´t mean that all of the criteria for life to exist are met there. since we don´t even know what it takes.
The math has already been worked out countless times and im not even a theoretical astrophysicists but I know if the the fundamental forces of this universe such as nuclear forces electromagnetic forces etc.. were off by something as low as 0.000000001 or the timing missed a millisecond, we wouldn't exist EF, S, W ( the four main forces) theoretically all took place place in less than 1 nanosecond, try tossing a coin and having it come up heads 10 Quintilian times in a row. that is the actual odd of the universe existing by chance. the drake equation does not even hold a candle to this probability at all. and the drake equation may not be 100% accurate, as nothing is, BUT it is a well thought out probability and has had lots of trial and error
also, paintings does not suggest that aliens. we do not give ancient humans enough credit for their creativity. if humans from 3000 years disconnected from our way of living saw us from today and they see art of things like the ancients drew (which we still do) then they would think it was aliens too
genericname, we have a strong hunch of how life begins through testings of abiogenisis. theoretically, for life to begin there are simple building blocks necessary and if what you are saying holds true, and we are some kind of special exception then that would probably favor the fermi paradox which asks the simple question ''"Where is everybody?'' if the odds are so high. What is stopping this universe from being so crowded? what you are saying actually makes fermis philosophy stronger
@imbored2252 you´re way too hung up on the painting bullshit. i just mentioned it cause it is a theoretical way around the paradox not cause i think it's a factual truth xD
yeah it is "possible" that the odds are so freaking low that we actually are alone in the universe. but maybe not. i think it´s not paradox that life exists in the vast space out there and we didn´t ever and will never meet. it´s also possible that we´re just the only life form in this plane of time. that doesn´t mean that nothing else will ever exist after us or has ever existed before us.
all i´m doing right now is pointing out a possibility. not a fact. we don´t need to discuss this in depth xD i just personally think it´s not unreasonable to believe there is another species out there in the universe. i´m just comparing the possibility of another species with a different origin with the possibility of a god having created everything.
tl;dr existance of god is less likely than existence of species with a completely different origin.
no the assumption that the odds are lower than the phermi paradox assumes don´t strengthen the paradox xD it´s probably just a coincidence just like our very own existence.
'' i just mentioned it cause it is a theoretical way around the paradox '' I just fail to see the connection between paintings of aliens and the fermi paradox. No need to get angry at that. Im happy to listen to your reasoning.
''i think it´s not paradox that life exists in the vast space out there ''
its paradox for anything to exist. Something always existed, meaning that there was never a point of time where there was ''nothing'' nothing in this universe is new, and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This actually means that we are as old as the universe, which is as old as existence. this alone makes everything else one big confusing paradox that is far from our understanding. how can something always exist? its mind boggling, and also goes against cause and effect which we base everything around.
''also possible that we´re just the only life form in this plane of time''
that would suck in a way
coincidences with probabilities that are in the hundreds of billions? Sorry, well have to disagree there lol
@imbored2252 just to clear up what we refer to as the "fermi paradox": i refer to it meaning that there are loads of habitable places for life to exist yet there is no other life we knew of.
if the paintings of aliens were proof of aliens having visited in the past, which of course is highly improbable, that would solve the fermi paradox. cause in that case there would be proof for other species, which would directly solve the "paradox" as there is proven life in this example.
to me existence in general isn´t "paradox". just infinite. which for humans (me included) is a concept impossible to grasp. it´s entirely possible that in fact there are a lot of different species out there but it just so happens that none of them is close enough for us to ever take notice of (considering that the edges of the observable universe move away from us at light speed, making the for us unobservable parts unreachable). cause what if the universe is actually infinite.
lets just assume the observable part of the universe is part of an infinite universe. in that case the unfathomable space of the observable universe is just a tiny dust spec compared to everything there is xD and in that case it´s extremely possible that we never come in contact with other species.
i think of it as an ant in the untouched jungle. it wonders why it has never seen a human. and it will never see one. nor will it´s colony ever see one. it´s a sad uncertainty but an intriguing possibility. yet nothing to assume as a fact :D
Proof like these paintings? www.google.com/search
more like this www.google.de/search
but it doesn´t matter. it´s just an example. we don´t assume it´s true. just theory.
I've seen someof these photos already. I don't assume they tell true stories: I guess several old civilizations too invented their kind of Spiderman.
''i refer to it meaning that there are loads of habitable places for life to exist yet there is no other life we knew of.'' thats the point. in theory of the drake equation of the abundance of supposed life, the universe is extremely quiet and not only from our field of view but also lack of signals too. there is literally no proof of any living alien out there dude.
''if the paintings of aliens were proof of aliens having visited in the past, which of course is highly improbable''
so you are talking about the ancient alien theory. there was never anything to suggest that whatever those paintings were just aliens. for all we know, they could have been a different species on earth. remember, before 30,000 years ago, there were at least 12 different species of humans and others that haven't been found. most likely, they have a lot to do with our history.
''to me existence in general isn´t "paradox".'' anything that defies cause and effect is a paradox. also, infinity..
is one of the most famous paradoxes out there. its a worth that can't be measured, its never ending. there is even a book on it lol ''Paradoxes of infinity" now, in my opinion, I tend to find different dimensional beings more likely than life in this universe. I won't really get into that. Also, I have seen the paintings before.
@imbored2252 that´s what i´m saying all the time xD i just brought that up cause this "would" solve the fermi paradox. i know it didn´t actually happen.
yeah well that´s your preference. i think "infinity" paired with "utter randomnes" can create same outcomes multiple times. just or wrong sense of scale tells up that the random occurence of life should exist a second time within our reach, which is not a given. of course if you think that´s not enough for you to actually think it´s plausible, that´s perfectly logical and i won´t try and argue that. it´s of course a valid assumption.
@genericname285 Concerning the the Fermi paradox, there are some probabilities that are often overlooked:
Once a civilization goes far into nuclear development there's a probability of self destruction.
Thus some alien civilizations may have disappeared before reaching us.
An alien civilization which didn't self destruct might avoid contacting a civilization likely to do it.
if aliens existed we would not be able to fathom their thought process or what technological advancements they value as we have never dealt with something other worldly. our opinions, reasoning and culture revolves around ourselves, not theirs (if there is any).
@genericname85 oh sorry for misunderstanding lol
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