6 Problems with Christianity, v1

[PeterB1517]

I am a reform Jew. I was Bar Mitzvahed, went to Hebrew School after Bar Mitzvah, but don't say I know about Judaism at all. Nor do I know a lot about Christianity, but from what I do know, these are among its problems, though that is not to say that these same theological problems don't exist with Judaism. And it is very likely I am misunderstanding the theology and reasoning behind these things, but this is based on my current knowledge, and this is myTake.

Original Sin

1. Original sin doesn't make sense

It may be true to say that we are all sinners, but the fact that the mythological first humans ate an apple from a tree God forbade them to eat does not make all future generations sinners for that. It just makes no sense. It is so foreign to our morality today, that I can't accept it. Therefore, for this specifically, Jesus could not have died and suffered for our sins. If he suffered for all previous and future sin of all kinds, ok, but for someone eating an apple or even disobeying God thousands of years previous, just can't accept it.

The Supposed Trinity

2. Jesus is not God

There are many prophets and people with special abilities in the Bible. The whole point of monotheism is that there is one God. Jesus obviously died from physical wounds. I like the way that the show/movie/music of "Jesus Christ Superstar" depicts the story. It really gets into his uncertainty. Some say that Jesus may have never existed. I don't believe that without great proof. I think Jesus' purpose was to spread a better religion/belief system to more people. But he is not one and the same with God. He is not God in human form. It is quite possible that God endowed him with special abilities, but he is separate from God. And the fact that he came from a virgin birth may have been a mistranslation built upon. Remember there is Moses, Elijah, and many other special people listed in the Bible.

My doubt explained

3. You don't need to pray to God through Jesus

I listen to Joel Osteen a lot. I like his messages. And for most of the content of his messages, he does not talk about Jesus. He talks about God. I'm also familiar with recovery programs. In these programs, you are supposed to get down on your hands and knees twice a day, and basically pray to God. I don't need to pray to Jesus for him (though dead) to transmit my message to God.

My question

4. God does not forgive your sins for just believing in Jesus or accepting or anyway you want to put it.

When you sins, you do acts that harm another. These are actions. Should you later accept Jesus, if you macheted 15 people previously, not all that horrific sin will be taken away because you accept Jesus. Just like the legal system, if you want to try to make up for your sins, you need punishment, genuine feeling of wrongdoing, and making amends as best as possible. Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish year when Jews fast is the "Day of Attonement".

5. Christianity overemphasizes God's love, goodness, and all the positive things

Christianity, especially Christians today in very accepting churches seem to think that everything about God is good and positive and light. God believes in punishment too. He makes horrible things happen for reasons unknown to us. He allows evil. There are so many Bible stories where God was angry. In Sodom and Gomorrah, he was ready to destroy those cities for sin, and kill everyone in it. He was angry with the Jews countless times. It's like hippyish, feel good, only positive enforcement has become accepted as the dogma. This is not so.

6. I mentioned this elsewhere

This is not deep religious theology or scriptural reading. This is not Jews arguing over the Talmud. Please read the first words of the Bible. Let's just go with the King James Version though you can change it to whichever version you like:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=KJV

I'm going to edit here for the applicable phrase:

"

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

...

4 And God saw the light, that it was good

...

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

...

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

...

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

...

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

...

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

...

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

Now, what does the expression "SAW it was good" mean to you? Is this a mistranslation? Did the writers/God choose the wrong words for this beginning section? Here is a page claiming like most do that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

http://www.thebridgeonline.net/sermons/the-god-of-the-bible-is-omnipresent-omnipotent-and-omniscient/

I guess the one I object to is omniscient. Because the expression "God saw it was good" clearly means that he did not know beforehand whether it would be good or not. One blending of science and religion is to believe that God created a million/billion universes before ours. He was experiment, crafting, adjusting. Here is a fascinating article about 26 constants that allow our universe with very specific numbers:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ethansiegel/2015/08/22/it-takes-26-fundamental-constants-to-give-us-our-universe-but-they-still-dont-give-everything/#6b918a644b86

Seven words that change how you see the world:

http://www.bloggingtheologically.com/2016/01/04/seven-words-that-change-how-you-see-the-world/

--------------------------------------------

I know I am going to think of more objections, and I don't know edit capability of myTake based on my level and this functionality, so I added v (version) 1 to title, as I may need to repost this, and correct it or change it. I'm not trying to upset people. I may regret this. However, perhaps really questioning things can get you to a deeper and truer belief.

[Anonymous]

Jew Power mothafuckas ^^ Sorry, but after seeing plenty of christian this and that on this site, nice to see this a bit. Not to say Judaism doesn't have it's own loooong list of issues, oooooh it does!! Every religion has it's BS. Every single one. In reality, nobody knows the actual god or what any religion fully wants as it's legit impossible to see in the mind of some god, any rabbi, writers of a torah scroll or holy book, so really, religion has this situation where people think of this concept of religion is the same as others, but it's not, it's in reflection of themselves and god is going to cater to oneself the most, because that's how humans work. Nobody has an exact same view of god. Nobody. None. Nada. We see a god how each wants to. The definitions for what is just, right, wrong, etc is going to vary for everyone, and so too, it will in their billions of versions of "a single god." Despite this, kudos to Judaism for sticking to that one god ONLY and encouragement of questions thing. It's created atheists, skeptics, and flat out super smart people because it allowed it unlike other religions so I do have a bit of favortism for Judaism. That and Buddhism, which just seems so nice, tranquil and peaceful. Even Jesus himself seems like a cool, just, hippie figure I'd love to chill with. He is technically a super distant family member after all >v<

[PeterB1517]

Sorry, I'm confused. This feedback was cool. I don't fully understand Judaism. It rings a little more true to me. But Christianity is more inspirational and that's why more people believe in it. Listen to Joel Osteen sometime.

[Opinion Owner]

Well, it's the fact of being a reform Jew like most American Jews. Often, Jews in America if not in LA or NYC in specific areas, they never actually get to see hard pressed Judaism for what it is. You've never been to crown heights? Or to Jerusalem to what I think is the biggest yeshiva (Jewish men's seminary thing) in the world? You even know what kosher means? If not, then you haven't seen what Judaism truly is made of. It's often too cause most areas lack the resources to show any of it and Christianity rules the world of religious influence outside Israel. Christianity I can see why people like it. In many cases, you go to church, wearing what you want, sermons can be interesting and waaay more fun to listen to then in a synaguage (depends), hell, they have rock concerts and stuff sometimes in churches. Many things that are more fun aren't allowed in Judaism so yah, it's no wonder Christianity can get selected. Real freedom though? Atheism. Skepticism. Deism. My faves

[Opinion Owner]

Also, Joel Osteen... sounds better than Kenneth Copeland, but the goals seem quite similar. Megachurches saying basically to pay for blessings to come true. It actually inspired me to join the Church, Our Lady Of Perpetual Exemption. Pastor John Oliver explains it quite well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

[PeterB1517]

I listen to Joel Osteen on Sirius. He's never asked me for a dollar. I get his email where he does along with daily measage. Everybody wants donations.

[PeterB1517]

I'll watch video. Hear he is funny.

[Opinion Owner]

Awesome. Of course he's funny! He's a Jew like you and me after all! Just look at that nose, face and the way he asks for money xD

[Reach500]

Ok, I'm responding to your issues as I understand them (sorry if I misconstrued anything you said).

1. The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil may or may not be a literal fruit. How is hereditary sin foreign to today's morality?
People aren't necessarily innately pure.
2. Why can't Jesus be God?
3. You say that we don't need to pray to God through Jesus. Do you think we are acceptable to God as is?
4 You say "Just like the legal system, if you want to try to make up for your sins, you need punishment, genuine feeling of wrongdoing, and making amends as best as possible." I do agree that we need to own and renounce our sins and make amends, but I think the full payment for sin is more "expensive" than people think. There is a temporal punishment for sins, but it doesn't fully pay for them or make them go away.
5. You say that Christianity overemphasizes God's love, goodness, and positive attributes. I think a lot of Christians conveniently ignore the more terrible sides of God, but I don't think Christianity itself does. Severe punishments and Hell are mentioned in the New Testament. Have you read the book of Revelation?

[PeterB1517]

Thanks for comments. I'll reply later. But "How is hereditary sin foreign to today's morality?" How can you say it is not foreign? Do we hold Germans today responsible for NAZI past? What do you mean?

[PeterB1517]

Do we say you are sinful because your mother cheated on your father? No!

[PeterB1517]

I should've said a person's mother on father. I chose a woman parent because you're a woman. I don't know you or your family. Just being figurative. We don't believe in hereditary sin today. Even a mass murder's child, we may have doubts, but any fair person would say try to be objectibe about them. It is innately unfair, holding person B responsible for person A's crimes and failures. Got to practice clarinet.

[PeterB1517]

Perhaps the true Jewish/Christian concept is not Original Sin but Sinful Nature, all humans have it. Or moralities have so changed from when written that it is foreign today.

[PeterB1517]

So again, thank you for commenting. I've addressed your point #1 in my multiple comments. Yes hereditary sin is foreign. We don't believe in that anymore.
2. Jesus could be God. If any part of the true, he certainly had God in him. But first, God is not human. Humanizing him downgrades him. (I actually believe in saying "It" for God, but it is awkward). The strongest point of Judaism, and of course Jesus was a Jew though he disagreed with its priests (what happened with those priests, when did they become rabbis?), was that God was one. There were not multiple Gods with one for the sea, and one for the rain, and one for the sun, and one for the mountains, and one for sex, and one for love, and so on. Of course there were the Greeks around that time with their polytheism, and the Romans later I believe. But what does most Christianity say? God is 3. Look at the confusing diagram I posted. God is basically this creature in the sky, or outside the creation.

[PeterB1517]

We were formed in his image, but it is unclear what is meant by that. Whether his physical image or similar in personality/attributes/conduct/whatever. Perhaps from your religious education you can clarify. Then for whatever reasons, God decided to come down in human form, and teach the people and do miracles like raising from the dead. He allowed himself to be tortured and killed to somehow suck up all the sin. Well, now God in human form is #2. Then there is this Holy Spirit (I thought there was another common name for it). Just looking it up now, I see it is in the Old Testament (of course, Jews do not refer to the TaNaKh as the Old Testament). Now, some say God in his 3 forms is like water in 3 forms: gas, water, and ice. I'm sure Judaism talks about multiple manifestations of God, or way he acts.

[PeterB1517]

But I'm sorry, I deal with this world as I've seen it. Now a thing is itself. It is either male or female say. Your name is John or Bob. I don't understand how we pray both to God in his human form, and this unclear God in the sky. Now, I personify God. I see him not as a cloud, but as probably a man with a beard (as I saw when looking for images for this post). I think he has a personality, and likes and dislikes. He gets angry and then cools off. I don't know. It makes God more conceivable for me. Many mock this, like a guy in the sky. I don't know, it is advantageous to believe, and I seem to have a natural belief and reliance, though resist praying.

[PeterB1517]

So suppose that God did come down, and take human form. And performed miracles and taught because the world had gone astray, and people needed to see miracles to believe. What is that literary expression, I'm willing to "suspend my disbelief". But it is possible. The evidence that it is possible is how Christianity spread like wildfire across the world, unlike Judaism or many other religions (perhaps excepting Islam later). Because God did that in his history, it still doesn't mean that I need to pray to that human form of God. Why not pray to the original form, the one in the sky that the Jews of the Old Testament dealt with? I don't know if I really answered the question of why Jesus Can't be God. I guess it is possible that he is. But I think it is more likely to me, that he was a prophet type, perhaps endowed with even more skills and abilities than say Moses or Isaiah (not even knowing what Isaiah did). I'm not claiming to be an expert.

[PeterB1517]

I think that CS Lewis in one of his book refutes this notion that Jesus was a prophet, maybe in "Mere Christianity" but I don't buy that his logic and proof is as strong as he represents it. Let's move. #3. Yes, I definitely believe that we don't need to pray to God through Jesus. It offends me. I don't care what John or other said. We are absolutely acceptable to God as we are. If you have a religious viewpoint, you believe something like God formed your soul, or created you individually, or knows your character, or knows what will happen to you and what you will do. I can't judge whether or not I agree with all that. I'd like to believe in that. So, I don't acknowledge Jesus as God, I most certainly do not need to pray through him, and yes, even flawed, blasphemous, arrogant, angry, lustful, am acceptable to deal with God. Didn't God interact with the people throughout the Old Testament?

[PeterB1517]

With your comment #4, you seem to be talking about hell. Well, isn't Christian belief that through some mechanisms, you can remove the sin so that you can go heaven? In Catholicism (and by the way, I really like the overall idea of Confession, though perhaps how practiced with 5 Hail Mary's is not great, and I feel that the Pope is a real religious leader of all people. I was very into his U. S. visit, and watched all those masses they had), in catholicism, there is a thought that a priest can remove the sin before you die, I guess increasing the chance of you going to Heaven. As I said, I don't know a lot about Judaism, but I don't think Heaven and Hell are anywhere near as emphasized as in Christianity. If Heaven and Hell existed, it would be for your soul, as your body and brain are dead. Your soul attributes and experience (if you go through the world as your soul instead of you complete) would be very different, because you're missing the brain and body.

[PeterB1517]

I don't understand the concept of soul, what it means. What is my soul? Is my soul how I interact with my cat? Is my soul that I'm curious? Is my soul some vague outline of my persona/personality? No idea. But, there is something off about the whole concept of Heaven and Hell to me. I'm sorry. This is our existence while alive. But I will tell you this, you watch these shows about ghosts and such, and they seem so real. The physics is so out of this world in its craziness, and who knows what goes in the spiritual realm. "Ancient Aliens" is convincing. Anything is possible. I will tell you that I do see my grandmother, or Bubby, in jewish culture, in my dreams sometimes. And the often dream is that she is somehow alive, though it is after the year 2000 when she died. But overall, I believe that punishment and repentance needs to occur in this lifetime. I don't know how you repent for truly horrible things, like raping, torturing, and murdering kids. I don't know if possible.

[PeterB1517]

But if you're a Christian, and buy into the whole theology, then I think that your belief that you can't get rid of your sin is a contradiction to that theology, though you are certainly entitled to have your own belief. And again, I'm uneducated on theology.
5. I think I read the Book of Revelation long ago. There are things in the "Torah Code" that line up with that. End days, major war in syria and such. A major conflagration between all nations in Israel and that area. I could understand how say the first Jewish American President could deal harshly with Israel, as the abused have become the abusers. But you encounter this expression "God is Love", and people think they are deep with it. I'm not going to say that I fully understand concept of Love, and I think it is quite possible that God formed the universe to give and receive love, but the falseness of the expression that "God is Love" offends me. Now, I've put a lot of time in responding to you, so respond to me.

[PeterB1517]

Treating me how I treat you (anybody else) seems like genuine morality to me. I can't seem to do an update to the whole thing outside this conversation. So I will just say that many people dismiss God because they think in our smart, brilliant age, we have science and evolution. Well, the more you know about physics, it seems to show that these brilliants physicists have no fucking idea of what is real and what is false. The physics idea are so crazy and outlandish, and religious like (the whole universe in a pinpoint, the singularity), regular matter, anti-matter, dark energy, everything with a reversal. They don't know if the big bang is true, whether we came from another universe, whether there is other universe, what is the shape of the universe, what is outside the universe, whether the universe is going to keep expanding/stretching or collapse, what truly goes inside an atom. They don't know shit, and the theories are insane and contradictory.

[PeterB1517]

And it is in our evolutionary developed brain to believe in God, or at least spiritual concepts. When your life collapses, or you're about to die, that's who you need to turn to. People who believe are happier. It is hard to justify morality without God. The arguments go in circles. I feel that I'm being watched. Many people have experienced the strangest of coincidences in their lives that seem so unlikely from pure chance. People when talking about spiritual things and wisdom get this feeling in them, goosebumps is a manifestation of it. Evil people turn good. Complete disaster drug addicts transform their lives through belief in God. So it is better to believe. And the last thing (for now), the most important question in religion/spirituality is: no matter what you believe in, do you believe that God intervenes in events and your life? Does he make events turn out different than pure cause and effect would lead to? Because if God does not intervene, he is irrelevant.

[Reach500]

I tried to respond to your main points, but I might have missed a few.
About hereditary sin being foreign to today's morality, I get what you're saying, but I believe we are tainted in a way and that the impurity was passed down. I don't really fully understand how it works though. I think it is possible to inherit guilt in a way.

I also don't fully understand how the trinity works.
I do believe that Jesus is God, though. But in a large part, it's because of my personal experiences and those of other people, but I can't necessarily expect you to take my experiences as proof.

As for praying to Jesus instead of God. I do believe that Jesus made it possible for us to be clean enough to be accepted by God, but when modeling prayer, Jesus said to pray to "Our Father..."

I'm not Catholic, but I don't think the bible supports the idea that there are mechanisms to get someone out of hell. Just that it's avoided by accepting the provision God made for us in regard to sin, through Jesus.

[Reach500]

My understanding of the soul is that it's the essential you.

[Reach500]

Interesting questions. I have to go, but I will return back to answer your other comments.

[Reach500]

I do agree that people who make it sound like God is only love are being dishonest.

As for the fact that a lot of people dismiss God because they think science is above it all, after studying science to the degree that I have (which isn't a lot, I'm not a scholar, but I have a somewhat decent understanding of biology), I think it actually supports a belief in God. There's so much purpose, order and beauty in the detailed and delicate design of things that I don't see how it could have just happened on it's own. I don't know much about physics, but I feel like biology points to there being a God. But it is amazing how much human beings don't know about the world.
I agree that treating people how we would like to be treated is a pretty good brand of morality. I just don't think it makes us as pure as we need to become.

I absolutely believe that God has answered prayers and intervened in events in my life. There are a lot of things that couldn't possibly have all been coincidences.

[ladsin]

Eh. I was hoping to actually get to talk to a Jew about some of their theology but whatever.
1) Isn't solely in Christianity. It's also in Judaism and Islam to my knowledge as they all come from the same story.
2-4) Are just a rejection of their holy texts. If you accept them you'd have a different conclusion.
5) Not really. The Jews didn't really have a hell concept, Jesus came up with that. Not very lovey-dovey. Matthew's Jesus also informs us "34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

6) Meh, pointless. It could easily be a figure of speech. A better thing to point out here would be the issues between day 3 and 4. I'll let you read it yourself and see if you can catch it. It's a pretty big one XD

[Bluemax]

"He makes horrible things happen for reasons unknown to us. He allows evil."

If that's the case, why on earth would you or anyone, Jew, Christian, or Muslim, call him "good?"

If you do not know his reasons, how can you know he's not doing it because he's just a sadistic dick?

[PeterB1517]

Kind of addressing @Wild_Bill comment too, I'm not sure. First God, if real and like what is imagined, created world and gave us birth, led events to our birth. Assuming life is better then nothing essential, that is good. Second, while he does make some people suffer tremendously, and everybody a little at least (loneliness, poverty, disease/illness/pain), mostly our lives are as stable as we make them. We can choose to have boring, mostly positive lives, or go crazy with addictions and our emotions. Sometimes when the suffering is to great, he allows us to escape life. Perhaps he delivers what we truly need. And while God may get angry and vengeful at you for a day, week, month, or year, generally, your luck changes, and things go back to normal and you stop feeling cursed even if you don't want to get everything you want. Ok... I don't want to talk about myself, but to illustrate point. God through a trial has allowed me to change job for the better. I don't have a girlfriend but

[PeterB1517]

That's partly due to me still smoking and lack of persistent effort and courage by me. I go to various doctors, and though health isn't perfect, I'm not cursed by any major illnesses as of now. I will be if I don't quit smoking. Why are you both so angry at God? What has he done to you? What has he not delivered? You just gotta keep up the hope and try to take some positive action.

[PeterB1517]

Of course, I know nothing about you. I can't do thorough research, but,:
1st, you're a guru on here. You achieved success. First, somebody or more people were inspired to create website, and it succeeded giving you pleasure, instruction, chance to shine, all good things.
2nd, you made it to age 50.
3rd, you seem focused in dating. That means you're not working about your basic needs. If you were more generous, lowered standards, spent more money, or tried harder, you could have a girlfriend.
Perhaps you're a parent. What if your kid wasn't appreciative for house you gave him and food you fed him while he got Cs in school, and then when you kicked him out, he called you a fucking asshole? I'm not the most positive or grateful person either, and I do get angry easily and often, but God is not to blame for most of our problems and often keeps us out of our worst scrapes, what we deserve like DUIs all the times driving drunk, or in trouble at work for cutting off time, or in horrible l

[PeterB1517]

Health for how we eat. Hopefully, in time, we will all find love when the time is right.

[Bluemax]

I'm not angry at God since I don't believe in him. Furthermore, my life admittedly has been very blessed.

However, I've known plenty of people whose lives, through absolutely no fault of their own, were horrible, from the moment they breathed their first until the moment they breathed their last. I've known some who welcomed an early death.

So to use your fatherhood analogy, if I were a father and I mangled my daughter's body, making her unable to walk, or even scratch an itch, making her whole life confined to a bed or wheelchair, thus ensuring that she lived under constant care of the state because her parents died (and until very recently in human history, she wouldn't have gotten that far... she would have died in childhood) and she told me to fuck off, I would say, "Gee. Maybe she's right to feel that way. Maybe I shouldn't have mangled her body. Maybe I *am* an asshole and I should change."

[Bluemax]

Now getting back to your original premise of how "He makes horrible things happen for reasons unknown to us. He allows evil."

If you don't know his reasons, as you explicitly stated, how do you know his reasons are "good?" How do you know he is good?

[Kaneki05]

Not like it matters anyway it is just a book full of story's and if it was all true it all contridicts it self and don't make sense so... But guess we will find out when where dead so no need to think about it now.

[Wild_Bill]

My long standing issue is the following: God created everything and takes credit for everything but yet takes no accountability or responsibility for the problems he created. Further, he passes the buck onto the devil who is again, a superior being to us, of which we have no control over. So what, shit rolls down hill and humanity incurs eternal punishment for the fuck ups of omnipotent beings.

I have a very hard time with that

[Bluemax]

Yep. Me too.

[yesnomaybeone985]

I think you are overlooking the fact on point one that this wasn't just an apple but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil this may have genetically opened something in the human mind that was transferable to there offspring.

[Anonymous]

shut up you sound stupid GOD is above the dome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAcp3BFBYw4

[Anonymous]

you are an idiot

GOD is above the dome
so yeah

you are kinda screwed
either Christ or Hell pick one

(rocket hits dome)

[abundantlyrich]

The Vatican changed some things in there

[Kingkennys]

or the hindu vedas were changed too.

[Anonymous]

YOU! Need Jesus

[errorgoodnameunfound]

Sorry, I already have the flying spaghetti monster and he loves me A LOT as he BOILED for my sins!

[Opinion Owner]

@errorgoodnameunfound Why do you comment on a comment that wasn't meant for you?

[errorgoodnameunfound]

Because like him, I am a Jew and his response will likely be the same as mine, no we don't. We Jews have a thing called satire which we are quite good at and there's few things funnier than using it to make Christians look like fools. In defense of my fellow Jew in more "simple" words: FUCK OFF, we don't need your Jesus. Plenty of Jews have lived quite well without believing in him and no doubt will continue to.

[Opinion Owner]

@errorgoodnameunfound Okay then... suit yourself lol

[Anonymous]

Thanks

[PeterB1517]

Why thanks? What did you like/dislike?

[PeterB1517]

I didn't see your original reply above this. I thought on my phone you just said thanks. Cool for your feedback.