Where do rights come from government or god?

[Stoner710]

If god exist they come from god

if god doesn’t exist they come from government and governments can do what ever they want to there people they can give rights to its citizens or take them away.

[Anonymous]

Neither. We decide how we want to live our lives and we dislike others telling us what to do. That's part of the chaotic nature of being a human being. You can read up on moral philosophy if you'd like. It's a fascinating topic.

Also it doesn't matter if god exists when it comes to rights. Governments can and do take away people's rights but that doesn't mean you should just accept it. We all gotta fight for what we believe in. Regardless of whether or not a god or gods exists, humans will always try to subjugate each other especially minority groups. That's another reason we have to fight to make our voices heard. Don't let anybody silence you.

[Stoner710]

So do rights exist or are they just things humans like to do and agree we should do? Example just cuz it’s the topic on concern lately. Half of the United States believe women have the right to an abortion the other half thinks women do have the right to an abortion. Who Desides? Is it 51% of the population that decides do you need more to not start a civil war?

[Opinion Owner]

That's why we all gotta fight for what we believe in. I'm pro-choice so that's something I'll help fight for. I expect the other side to fight for their beliefs as well.

[Stoner710]

That’s fair (not turning this into an abortion argument because we’re gonna disagree on that one).
Now if we decide our right are we going for our extreme individualism much like the Marquis de Sade subjected Basically he believed that since there is no God intense of rights are giving out by the individual he has the right to torture in rape women which he did a lot you got beheaded during the French revolution because of what he did was doing. Is that the level rights goes Marquis de Sade believe he had the right to rape women so did he have that right? He even explained that humans should pursue what they want to do and hang the consequences if one suffers because of my pleasure why should I as an individual care?

Or is it a collective agreement of right much like what Ayn Rand in her followers believe more of a cultural Marxist idea

[Opinion Owner]

Regardless of whether or not a rapist has the right to rape they still rape. The issue is people will have problems and will take retaliatory actions against the rapist. That's why we have a justice system. If we didn't everyone would take vigilante justice against everyone else who wronged them or those they care about. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. People are interconnected whether we like it or not. Every action someone takes especially harmful actions, would have a direct or indirect effect on someone else. In your example, it's a presupposition that all acts both nefarious or benevolent exist in a vacuum where there's no connection or consequences for their actions whether legally or otherwise.

[jshm2]

You need to lay off the crack.

God makes laws, but it's the judiciary that interprets those into usable rules and legislation. So called "rights" are a relative term that change and reinterpret from generation to generation.

American's wanted to save segregation rights in the past.

[Stoner710]

That’s the United States government high end government official in China can force women like Lexie Liu (Chinese pop artist) to have sex with them and the women can’t refuse or there executed or sent to prison camps. The people never voted or agreed to this type of treatment. Does government have the right to rape women if they say it’s ok?

[purplepoppy]

In the UK we have the legal phrase Time immemorial meaning a right that's existed since before 1189ad. (In practice it usually means we believe we've the right but can't find the paperwork). Most of these rights have been updated over the centuries by governments but at their base is a fundamental right. Given the religious nature of our ancestors no doubt the Bible played a role in establishing them

[Tamera952]

Certainly not from god. That asshole is asleep at the wheel.

[Stoner710]

So government has the power to take away rights and give rights as it so chooses?

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Individual rights comes from government and the constitution they specifically wrote on how to govern their specific country and citizens.

God had no say in no country's government and constitution except for the ancient Hebrews under His covenant laws as He was the head of that nation for that specific time period.

[lightbulb27]

government. without that setup right, your lucky to be alive becuase the other humans will kill you.

[Stoner710]

Ok so government can give and take away rights as they see fit. In China women don’t have a right to refuse sex from a major high end official. Does she not have a right to not be raped by a high government official or it’s not high end government official right to have sex with any girl he wants regardless if she wants it or not

[lightbulb27]

I never heard that. it comes from the govt in that case, but she should have the right to her own body. That's the basis of all laws... so that's why USA says it comes from God.
Chinese need to rise up and change their rulers...

[Stoner710]

Exactly www.npr.org/.../china-tennis-peng-shuai-sexual-assault

Peng Shuai was sexually assaulted by Chinese Vice Premier Zhang Gaoli she came out on social media about it. Now she has disappeared. Her names has been erased by the Chinese government like she never existed. She is very likely dead or in a concentration camp starving to death being beaten and raped by the guards. That what happens when rights come form government.

So yes this is why we in the United States say rights come from god so government if the violent our right we have the god given right to kill the government. Also why Americans have guns, it prevents government form taking rights away otherwise there gonna get killed and they know it

[lightbulb27]

I see what you are saying. By viewing it from "god", it gives the person their rights. There is a problem in China... they erased god, doesn't exist. They are the god... the self, the government and is the power.
This why I don't support them. Any person in power can abuse that power, but should be held to account by society.
Very unfortunate for that woman, I hope she finds her way out of that mess. There's a reason why there are a lot of chinese all over the world who got out. I hope they learn to appreciate the freedoms others paid for and the values inspired. But in general, some do... but I suspect the fear imposed by Mao is still dominant in the culture... they are very passive people... beaten into submission, trained to respect the govt, not god. there is no god concept in most I've met.

[Stoner710]

This is true and honestly I fear the worst for Peng Shuai she’s probably dead.

But yea without God there really isn’t anything the government can’t do to you. Without god government has absolute power an absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is the contrast between a god fearing society and a government fearing society.

[lightbulb27]

Chinese are more like a colony of ants... slaves to the "queen". that's the concept. Individuality doesn't exist.
If she was pakistani/muslim and raped, she would have been stoned to death. these old societies are not about individual freedoms or love, they are about honor. The cultural clash. Pride... is the driving force...

I hadn't heard of her, organize a mass march and protest against China, only thing that will tilt their hand...

[Stoner710]

China aka a socialist government is a newer idea then Islam but a lot of the same concepts, even under confusionisn china wasn’t like that.

Unfortunately a mass protest won’t work. The Chinese government would just suppress the news or kill everyone protesting if we protested in China. World leaders unfortunately doesn’t care about women getting raped and murdered in China there more concerned with economic growth and not pissing off the Chinese who make most of our goods

[genericname85]

from the society you live in which votes for the government, which then representatively for the voters decides on your rights.

[genericname85]

it doesn't matter if god exists or not. if you violate the law, you'll be send to jail. no matter what some god says about that.

[Stoner710]

So when you have a dictator or a government that literally forced women to have high end officials children women don’t have a right to refuse correct? (Think China)

[genericname85]

yeah. that's how law works. whatever law a society agrees on is what you'll be forced upon if you want that or not.

[Stoner710]

Ah then it seems to me government should no longer exist. Xing jing ping has the right to force someone like Lexie Liu to have sex with him that tells me that governments should exist any more. Think what if joe Biden came in and said I want to have sex with your girlfriend until I’m dead and that’s the law of the land would you be willing to give up your wife or girlfriend to joe Biden?

[genericname85]

well you can't just generalize "government" like this. there's huge differences between governance system

[genericname85]

the point is that people need rules to live together or else it's gonna be murders and thieves everywhere. so in order to make the rules, there has to be an instance that can come up with the rules and an instance that enforces the rules. and then there needs to be a mechanism with which to prevent those instances to gain more power.

[Stoner710]

The mechanism to prevent instructions from gaining more power typically fail it’s been failing in our country since Woodrow Wilson. It started majorly failing in FDRs terms humans can’t be trusted to have a government it would be better to have individual stealing getting fought and beaten by the person they stole from then trust government to do anything but become corrupted

[genericname85]

well humans can be less trusted ungoverned.

[Stoner710]

Well then we better hope there either a god or aliens out there to come down and rule the human race. Individual have knifes and guns sure a few people will die, government has nuke and the ability to kill pillage and rape. “If men were angles we wouldn’t need government” since men are men you can’t trust them with government least not on a large scale level

[genericname85]

Well God doesn't exist and aliens are either out of reach or not interested in us xD

[Guy13]

Much of that is found in the Old Testament Jewish law. Part of that is the 10 commandments.

[Juxtapose]

"Rights" are an abstract concept that you have fo kill to keep.

[Juxtapose]

*to kill

[Juxtapose]

As in, kill others.

[NNWSSEnew]

Rights are government.
Rites is gods.

[Stoner710]

So government has power to give an take away right as it chooses?

[OddBeMe]

Prove god exists.

[Stoner710]

I can’t but prove he doesn’t exist.

Think “we were endowed by our creator with unalienable right” or “Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other"

This means that unless we believe our right do come from our constitution is trash for atheist and makes no sense what’s do ever. If god doesn’t exist and our people believe god doesn’t exist then the constitution is wholly inadequate for people in the United States today basically we must abandon the constitution if there is no god because our constitution makes no sense without the existence or at very least belief god exists.

Of course you know me I’m agnostic there’s no many possibilities out there for me to go atheist. And frankly if I was an atheist the only one that makes complete sense to me as the Marquis de Sade who is where we get the word sadism from.

[OddBeMe]

“Proving something doesn't exist” …. Not how logic works.

[Stoner710]

Ok so basically your saying rights come from government. So I ask you this question if a high end government official can order a women to have sex with them the women I guess doesn’t have the right to refuse on punishment of death or consecration camps. This is what happened to Peng Shuai she tried #metoo Chinese Vice Premier Zhang Gaoli of sexual assault. She has now disappeared and will never be seen again. Did Chinese Vice Premier Zhang Gaoli have the right to sexually assault Peng Shuai? If government if the one who controls peoples right seems to be that she had no right to refuse sex form Zhang Gaoli and we will never see her alive again.

[OddBeMe]

No. But thanks for trying ti strawman me, my govt in America has clear boundaries of separation of church and state.

[Stoner710]

For the federal government it does it’s actually a gray area when it comes to the states, it hasn’t been tested but given the originalist we have in scotus I’m sure Utah could make Mormonism it’s state religion. Remember Massachusetts has on state religion I’ve been till 1838

[OddBeMe]

I did not know that about Massachusetts. But like my state of texas there are old “unused” laws that are crazy. In TX, you can’t run for elected office if you're not christian.

Neither Massachusetts or TX enforces those laws. Because that’d be illegal af.

[Stoner710]

Yea we have laws here in Washington that are stupid and not enforced at all like I guess lollipops are illegal in Washington state. As far as Texas saying you can’t run for elected office if you're not christian. If it went to scotus right now because of the originalist they would probably say hat law in legal the constitution was suppose to curb the power of the federal government and let the states do pretty much what they want. Of course after the civil war that changed. The idea of states right was hurt by the south claiming it was there state right to own slaves and the federal government couldn’t do anything about it. Technically they were right about how the relationship was suppose to work between the feds and the states. I don’t support slavery in anyway but the relationship between the states and the feds was suppose to be the feds had very very little power vs states who have all the power. Think of it like a strong man compaction them states are the 6,8 300 pound guys who can lift 2000 pounds without an issue vs federal government an 8 year old girl excepted to lift the same amount of weight.

[OddBeMe]

Its funny that you dont support slavery in any way but you're for “states rights” no matter what. Lots of americans went to war on that principle.

[Stoner710]

I can hold a both views, slavery is an evil and states should have power over themselves why should taxis want to do what California wants to do? Every single state has its home culture much like the EU Germany has his own culture Frances on culture Great Bren what used to be in the EU has his own culture it’s not like the EU can make laws for any of the other countries which is pretty much like states as far as EU is concerned

[OddBeMe]

Because Cali has to finance red states like Alabama.

[Stoner710]

California should be fun in California Alabama to be a funding Alabama. I don’t see why this is so difficult to understand. This is why the articles of Federation was way better than constitution. The federal government wasn’t allowed to collect taxes at all So they wouldn’t The state redistributionism. If Alabama cannot take care of it since they move. If California cannot provide the ideological stemless for assistance they move so basically you would have Florida Texas California New York. Move to the states that benefit you financially and ideologically. Those who can’t move your screwed

[OddBeMe]

Because alabama can’t fund alabama. It would be a smoking crater without federal funding.

[Stoner710]

Ok let it be a smoking Crater then state should take care of themselves federal government shouldn’t have a nothing to with states who can’t pay for themselves It would just make taxes in Florida bigger bigger

[OddBeMe]

that is a political and economic position. The other side is that its better to help people.

[Stoner710]

It’s better for people on the local level to help their fellow citizens I agree with that one if you live in King County you should be helping the people in King County not Pierce County not get a Tatch county you help people in King County same with people in Washington state help people in Washington state the people in Alabama should be helping the people in Alabama it should be up to the federal government isn’t way way too much power remember they’re supposed to be limited very limited almost to the point where they can’t do anything that’s how the federal government was originally supposed to be run at least