Why I think so many men (and women) have an issue with the word Feminist!

Why I think so many men (and women) have an issue with the word Feminist.

As someone who actually does believe in gender equality and (tries) to treat people equally and examine any subconscious biases I may have, I'm curious about why the feminist movement seems to get so much bad press and why it hasn't been able to change that.
The easy answer for feminists is to believe that those who dislike it are sexist/misogynists and are threatened and offended by equality. However, despite racism being as big a topic and issue in modern culture as sexism, groups promoting racial equality are not half as controversial or as frequently debated as feminism.

Why is that?

I'm writing this Take to help put my issues with feminism into words and perhaps explain to feminists some rational reasons why some people still find the tag controversial.

Here are what I believe are reasons why many avoid the Feminist tag:

Some of the people criticisng feminism are actually sexist (and sometimes, stupid)

Why I think so many men (and women) have an issue with the word Feminist!

This is called hyperbole. It's also called insanity.

This is certainly true. A lot of people are sexist and would obviously take issue with feminism in every form. There's not much more I can say about this as it is pretty self-explanatory but this isn't the only issue. People who believe in gender equality do still have issues with the Feminist tag.

It doesn't represent men

Whether feminism has indirectly helped men or not is debatable but it doesn't change the fact that it’s main priority is to help women, often by taking power from men. Sometimes this is justified but another issue is that feminism generally claims that men hold power in society and that women don't, which seems foolish to guys who have little real power (like me). You cannot consistently demand a group surrender power while also maintaining that they are responsible for your problems and they are the enemy ('fighting the patriarchy') without them becoming somewhat resentful and confrontational.

The end goal(s) are debatable

Obviously equality is a principle fairly basic in modern society. But one difference between gender equality and racial equality is that there are no real differences between black people and white people, beyond the superficial. You can observe a white person's experiences and compare it like-for-like with a black person's experiences and observe the differences. Men and women, however, are different. Our bodies are different (different sizes), our lives are different (pregnancy, periods etc.) and our goals are different in ways that never applied to different races and colours. How can you seek equality in areas like abortion when both genders experiences are entirely different?

Also, many of the differences between men and women, on some level, make us happy. Feminists may lament the lack of female power but women consistently and overwhelmingly say that they would prefer confident, successful (and powerful) men. Also, sexually they are generally submissive. Feminism examines every kind of media and criticises it for any form of sexism and then 50 Shades, despite being by all accounts an awful book, sells 125 million copies in over 50 languages. The film version, also poor by all standards, made over $500 million. There are no parallels between this and other civil rights movements. Gay people don't buy books and fantasise about being denied the right to marry. I know that seems like a silly comparisons but it shows how both genders are different regardless of what feminism says.

Feminists are often petty when dealing with those who don't join

When Shailene Woodley declined to accept the tag, this was the response:

"Were you fooled into thinking that barefoot Shailene Woodley was a breath of fresh air as a celebrity? Think again." - https://jezebel.com/shailene-woodley-has-some-thoughts-on-feminism-and-the-1571997758

Another (actually quite good) article is this one: https://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/07/why-millennials-think-they-hate-feminism.html However, even the title is condescending. Is the author really the authority on the thinkings of an entire generation? She basically implies that the whole generation don't know what they hate, they only think they do. This level of arrogance and detachment is not uncommon among feminists who have grown accustomed to thinking they have the right to modify of all society to change how we think and that article is actually very good by the standards of feminist articles in terms of how reasonable it is.

In another article, Katy Perry is criticised for rejecting the tag and the author concludes that she would have been a crap feminist anyway (https://jezebel.com/5964727/katy-perry-billboards-woman-of-the-year-is-not-a-feminist). Here Taylor Swift gets similar treatment: https://jezebel.com/5953879/dont-go-calling-taylor-swift-a-feminist-says-taylor-swift.

So why does the movement which claims to only be after equality so often get 'confused' with man-hating?

The group excludes men

Firstly, many forums and groups as seen as forums where women must be listened to (i.e. men's opinions are secondary).

"The thing is, a feminist space — unless the topic is specifically men’s issues — is not the place to have that discussion and neither are spaces (feminist or otherwise) in which the topic is specifically focused on women’s issues."

The issue is that feminism generally sees itself as the only answer to the issue of gender inequality and, regardless of how often they claim otherwise, has men as a second priority at best. Feminism is a group set up by women, ran by women and for women. It neither cares for nor has interest in men's issues beyond what affects them. This is why so men many wind up going to the weird MRA sites. The only alternative is feminism which has little care for them.

Secondaly, many male feminists are called 'allies' which is a condescending term used purely because the speaker doesn't believe guys can/should be feminists. Which begs the question: why not? Is it because guys are seen as secondary to feminism? Is it because guys can't be trusted to be a feminist proper because they are innately the enemy? Why get involved in a group which sees you as secondary or worse, the enemy?

Feminists don't really care about Men's issues

Why I think so many men (and women) have an issue with the word Feminist!

Now that is feminism in action.

Education:

"In 2010-11, there were more female (55%) than male fulltime undergraduates (45%) enrolled at university – a trend which shows no sign of shrinking." - https://www.theguardian.com/education/datablog/2013/jan/29/how-many-men-and-women-are-studying-at-my-university

Feminism was determined to get women better represented at College level. It still is. However when men are under represented, there is silence. The reasons for this is that when women are under represented, it is sexism. When men are under represented, it is fine. This is because feminism is dedicated to helping one gender meaning it is incapable of equality.

Suicide:

"Men have a shockingly high rate of death by suicide compared with wo­men. Across all countries reporting these data (except China and India) males show a suicide rate that is 3.0 to 7.5 times that of women. ... The silence surrounding suicide among men is also striking and warrants comment. First, there appears to be an overall lack of public awareness regarding the high rates of suicide among men"

One of the rare feminist takes on this is Julie Burchill's comment of "Let them go."

Underage Sex

"do we seriously think that a female teacher sleeping with a male pupil is on a par with a male teacher sleeping with a girl pupil? I don't. And neither, I'd wager, would most 15-year-old boys."

Divorce:

"Of the 400,000 people in the United States receiving post-divorce spousal maintenance, just 3 percent were men, according to Census figures. Yet 40 percent of households are headed by female breadwinners — suggesting that hundreds of thousands of men are eligible for alimony, yet don’t receive it"

Men generally, face less bias then women, I agree. However, feminsm's silence on these issues is noteworthy and obvious. The reason is that feminism has few men involved in it (by design) so doesn't know or really care about these issues. Why should it?

Conclusions

Many people have valid reasons for avoiding the tag of Feminist as it links them to many people, some of whom are, basically, stupid. The movement is large and it's aims and methods are vague and often debated. It's theories are complicated and it's solutions strange. It's proclaimed goal of equality is fine and rarely debated, the movement and term however is often shunned ("a new poll by Vox reveals that only 18 percent of Americans consider themselves to be feminists. In contrast, 52 percent said that they were not feminists, another 26 percent said they weren’t sure whether they were, and 4 percent refused to answer the question

...

According to the Vox poll, conducted by research and communications firm PerryUndem, a whopping 85 percent of Americans responded that they believe in equal rights for women.").

Why is this? Well, I will actually use a feminist's words to help explain: "Too many people are willfully ignorant about what the word means and what the movement aims to achieve." In her words, "There’s nothing wrong with famous women (or men) claiming the cause. But the fame-inist brand ambassadors are a gateway to feminism, not the movement itself". She's right. What many these days think is feminism (the dictionary definition and the soft version reported to us by Beyonce) is not the movement.

What is feminism in practice? Feminism is, in effect, a group that promotes the interest of women which is different from a group that promotes equality. It ignores Men's issues as they are distractions that undermine it's justifications of promoting women.

Also, if you are reading this and believe I need to 'man up' and stop bitching, I would wonder if you would respond the same to a woman's complaints. The way men's issues are shut down with the insult of men not "manning up" is proof of the way feminism has deliberately failed men and, I fear, will continue to do so.

Why I think so many men (and women) have an issue with the word Feminist!
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Most Helpful Girl

  • Maya-Vow
    I avoid feminism because of the insane shit they tend to pull.
    There was a conference about male suicide one time, and guess what the feminists did. They pulled the fire alarm so they had to cancel the talk and leave the building they were in. Isn't that wonderful?
    How about something really important, like men who spread their legs open? Now that's something that needs a lot of attention because that's just on the same level as killing women, right? Pathetic.
    Anita Sarkeesian. Do I need to say more?
    There's also the "don't tell people what they can and can't wear", but when a man wears what he wants, suddenly he's sexist. Remember #shirtgate?
    The idea of equality is a great thing, but focusing on one gender only is just moronic. Be egalitarian. That's equality for all sides.
    Is this still revelant?
    • Anonymous

      Agreed. The actions of feminism have poisoned the term and it would be best using another.

Most Helpful Guy

  • Sexualchrist
    No, I disagree. Feminism doesn't seem to have the same meaning to all feminists.

    A lot of them believe men should be excluded from their issues because they can't relate since they aren't women and to a certain degree those feminists are right.

    For some its a pipe dream of men fully empathising and rolling over even to things which are unfairly in favor of women and to others it's a one way street where men aren't even taken into consideration.

    There's no real meaning of feminism, only interpretations. Kind of like religion.
    Is this still revelant?
    • Anonymous

      I suppose so. It still makes using the word feminism to describe your beliefs as potentially confusing. These days it is almost so vague as to be meaningless.

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What Girls & Guys Said

1418
  • GirlsLie
    I think feminism is needed badly in some places, that's the reason I support it. I want equality for everyone though, both men and women. I'm not sure why people are obsessed with these labels, feminist, egalitarian etc. who the hell cares, treat everyone differently and get to know their personal views before you judge, how difficult is that.
    • I agree with the lables comment, they're pointless, but it's actually feminists the ones that give importance to it. You can say "I support women's complete equality to men" and then say you're not a feminist, and you'll get hate. For the majority of feminists it's not about what you fight for, but who you fight with, and if you're not with them, you're the enemy.

    • GirlsLie

      Well it's that way for a lot of people, with a lot of things in life lol. That could be said for very stubborn people, on almost any issue in life, so that's why I say it's better to ask someone's personal opinion, instead of immediately judging them by a label.

    • Labels like "masculine" and "feminine", eh? :P

    • Show All
  • Kirah
    Feminists do not care about men's issues. That's why I consider myself an egalitarian, rather than a feminist. Feminists have never done anything for men's issues, at all. "Toxic masculinity" is just a buzz word that doesn't mean anything.
    • Kirah

      www.reddit.com/.../

      Apparently men are also not even allowed to speak out.

    • Anonymous

      Men are allowed to speak out if we agree. Otherwise, we're misogynistic losers.

    • koko124

      "Feminists do not care about men's issues."

      I think this should be obvious. If the movement wanted equality for everyone, it wouldn't be called "feminism".

      If I see a charity called "Jewish kids' charity", I think it's a safe bet who they give their money to.

    • Show All
  • Sara413
    I think you did a decent job of laying out the reasons that people have for avoiding the label, or even being bothered by feminism, without being a dickhead or coming off as woman-hating or an anti-feminist.

    Kudos.

    I think that, as with political ideology and religion and any other type of belief system that people passionately hold, there are always going to be extremists on either side. And when you feel personally victimized by "the other side", you can always find examples of the worst offenders to point to and say "see, my criticism is valid. This is what these people say/do/believe".

    I think that, right now, feminism is at a very interesting time in history. The issues that we are left with to fight today are not the political or the economic, as they were in our mothers' and grandmothers' days - they are social. And that's always going to be trickier ground to tread, and more complicated to try to get right.

    It was easy to argue that women should be given the right to vote.
    It was easy to argue that women should be paid equal wages for equal work.
    It was easy to argue that women should be able to own property and run a business and get and education and run for political office.

    Even with those arguments, which we look back on as so basic and obvious, there were detractors. There are STILL people who think women should be seen and not heard, should stay home and tend house, and who have no place in board rooms or legislatures.

    Now, the issues that we are focusing more on are less cut and dry. We're trying to navigate the waters of gender-specific violence, including domestic violence and sexual assault. We're trying to fight for the rights and needs of women to be treated with dignity and respect, without painting women as natural victims, or men as natural aggressors. We're trying to talk about street harassment and catcalling and the culture of over-sexualization and fear that underpin rape culture, without painting men as animals and women as helpless. We're trying to talk publicly about the behaviours and attitudes that continue to hurt women and make us feel unsafe, without alienating men and making them feel like we're pointing at them and making them our enemy. We're trying to incorporate the impacts that gender roles have on males into our discussions about the impacts on females, without diluting the movement. We're trying to be inclusive without derailing our aims.

    It's so much more complex and confusing to navigate social
    • Sara413

      issues because not only are they less cut and dry, but people are much more sensitive about them.

      Men are becoming increasingly sensitive, it seems, to feeling like they're being painted as the enemy, even when that's not the intent at all. Women are so passionate about wanting to be believed when we say we've been wronged, and having felt for so long like our experiences are not validated by the wider society, that we say things like "men need to stop doing x!", when they really mean "some men".. and then the whole conversation gets derailed because men pipe up upset about being painted as bad.

      I think, what it comes down to, is that whether you want to call yourself a feminist or not, we all need to be a little more patient and a little more understanding about where the other side is coming from. So, men, don't enter every discussion about feminism under the assumption that we are blaming YOU for the problems or that we don't care about YOU. Don't derail conversations about US

    • Sara413

      because you feel it's unfair that we're not talking about YOU. Feminists - stop assuming that every man who says #notallmen or who derails a discussion is at his core a woman-hating mouth-breather. Try to engage one another in respectful dialog rather than accusation.

      Men's issues do matter, but I think that men also need to take some responsibility for working toward fixing those issues without blaming feminists for either causing the problems, or not putting our efforts into solving them. We've got enough on our plates. We don't need to start focusing on every problem that has ever existed. No one is stopping you from building safe places for male victims of domestic or sexual abuse to turn to. Currently, male victims are welcome at rape crisis centres, but they often don't want to go because they don't feel they belong there. Give them somewhere to belong - a place built by men for men. Do your part to lobby for changes to the education system to b more welcoming to boys and more

    • Sara413

      attune to their needs. These are all things that men could be doing instead of pointing the finger at feminists and saying "you don't care about men."

    • Show All
  • jacquesvol
    Those feminists made his dick shrink, according to His Eminence Rush Limbaugh!

    For whatever reason, Rush Limbaugh decided to discuss a study about male genitalia on his Friday radio show.

    According to Rush, the study, completed by researchers in Italy, found that the size of male genitalia has decreased over the past fifty years.
    "The study's leaders claim to have bonafide research that says the average size of a penis is roughly 10 percent smaller than it was 50 years ago. And the researchers say air pollution is why," Limbaugh said.
    Limbaugh said that he did not believe that air pollution and global warming could have such an impact. "I don't buy this. I think it's feminism. I think if it's tied to the last fifty years, the average size of a member is ten percent smaller... it has to be the feminazis," Limbaugh said.

    i920.photobucket.com/.../..._penis_zpsc80a61d0.jpg
    • Anonymous

      He said percent. It must be true.

    • jacquesvol

      Now we know why Rush in limbo is that angry

  • mousegrrrl
    So many assumptions here, it's mind-blowing. There are 2 that really need to be addressed, because I feel you are doing a disservice to everyone.

    1. your end about "manning up"
    30+ years I've followed changes in feminism & at no time have I read anything (outside the Comments Section) where a feminist told a man to "man up". So I find it disturbing that this is your proof that feminism has *deliberately* failed men. Not only are you suggesting atypical behavior as feminist in nature, but that the movement somehow got together & decided they needed to fail men on purpose. The entire premise just...

    You are aware that feminism prefers people to voice their emotions, not hide them behind gender roles, right?

    2. male suicide as silent epidemic
    This isn't all your fault since that link seems to be legit medical site (I think they will be receiving an angry letter from me shortly). There is not, nor has there ever been a "silent" epidemic of men committing suicide. Male suicide has quite a long, loud, historical record. Quick search of PubMed shows sources dating back to the 50s of attempting to understand the cause of, risk factors for, & preventing the occurrence of suicide. Not *female* suicide. Suicide. Gender difference as a focus of studies begins no later than 1987. How can it be a silent epidemic if we've been trying to figure it out for at least 28 years?

    Right here the more important question is, how on earth does this connect at all with feminism? Even supposing no one knew until this Canadian article dated this year, men having a higher "success" rate at suicide is some sign that feminism excludes men? In what universe?

    Also:

    The NAACP doesn't represent whites, straights don't lead pride parades, & trans groups are about trans voices. Feminism started to help women, so why would it represent men?

    Maybe men are "allies" not because they can't be feminists, but because they are not women?

    What does a pic of 2 people holding the same wad of cash have to do with feminism in action?

    A pop culture feminist site is petty to suggest that Beyonce explain to Shailene the nature of women's empowerment?

    What is more arrogant, a journalist thinking they have the right to *educate* all of society in *hopes* of changing how they think, or taking your own personal issues with feminism & attempting to use them to explain everyone else's issues with it? Neither. It's human to try explaining others' behaviors through your own personal experiences.
    • Anonymous

      1. "You are aware that feminism prefers people to voice their emotions, not hide them behind gender roles, right?" Only when they agree with feminism.
      The general stereotype of men who take issue with feminism is that they are 'losers'. There is a clear difference to how men's complaints are received to how women's complaints are received.

      2. I'm not suggesting that feminism is responsible for that, only that feminism does nothing for that. Most people agree that men face certain issues about discussing their emotions that contributes to suicide but feminists hardly ever discuss it because feminism is a group of women for women, not men.

      "The NAACP doesn't represent whites, straights don't lead pride parades, & trans groups are about trans voices. Feminism started to help women, so why would it represent men?" - I agree. But feminism is about gender equality, supposedly for both genders. Why then no men?

    • Anonymous

      "Maybe men are "allies" not because they can't be feminists, but because they are not women?"
      But that means that feminism is women's fight and women's organisation which undermines it's position as the answer to all gender inequality.

      "What does a pic of 2 people holding the same wad of cash have to do with feminism in action?"
      That was petty on my part. My issues is that feminists fought for the right to divorce and when the resulting situation clearly left men at a disadvantage (high alimony costs and little chance of getting custody, it stopped caring). This has left many men indifferent and downright resentful towards marriage with many just swearing off the issue and committing to avoiding marriage.

      "A pop culture feminist site is petty to suggest that Beyonce explain to Shailene the nature of women's empowerment?"
      I'm not sure where I said that to be honest.

    • Anonymous

      "What is more arrogant, a journalist thinking they have the right to *educate* all of society in *hopes* of changing how they think, or taking your own personal issues with feminism & attempting to use them to explain everyone else's issues with it? Neither. It's human to try explaining others' behaviors through your own personal experiences."
      True I suppose. My issue is more with how any contrary opinions to feminism are shouted down. Anytime a woman avoids the tag, they are treated like some kind of traitor to the cause rather than feminism actually evaluating why so many women still avoid their movement after all these years.

    • Show All
  • 2014raser
    Basically, this is the way I see it.

    If women want equal everything with men, then they should be called something like equalists. To me, feminism implies that they want more than what men have.
    • Dipsy

      Most women indeed want more. Equalists sound better

    • Anonymous

      Agreed. Equality is an excuse to justify them demanding more.

  • Jager66
    1. Pat Roberson is a moron.

    2. If you want to actually know why people oppose feminism then why don't you look into it? There are some VERY good reasons to oppose Feminism non of which you listed.

    Your effort here is noted and it's great to see people making an effort to understand why Feminism is viewed as having more in common with religion then with facts but you need to dig a lot deeper.
    • Anonymous

      I was trying to look more at the word and why people are reluctant to identify as feminists even though they think they fit the dictionary definition. I didn't want it to be a "why feminism is sh! t" rant.

    • Jager66

      ahh gotcha, I think the word is very fitting for what the movement actually is, even if it has nothing at all to do with the dictionary definition.

  • holyhabdasherybatman
    I currently identify as a feminist. I want you to know I appreciate your take very much... It's very eloquent and I can agree with a lot of it. However, with getting in my soapbox... I want to say that the feminism my mother and grandmother was a part of was different than what it is now... Equal pay, voting rights, etc. were things that were fought for and earned. Now, feminism is crossing social boundaries, challenging norms like it did before but more head on. Now it's about equality mostly in the social aspect. It's has changed... And I personally do not want men to feel lesser, like women have felt for centuries. But I want them to understand that women stepping up to their level shouldn't be viewed as a threat, I want them to welcome us. and understand we just want to be up on top with them, and feel equally important. As a feminist I do not seek to tear men down... I hope some people can understand that. But I want to say again, thanks for this take... I enjoyed reading it:)
    • Anonymous

      Thank you very much. :)
      I don't hate feminism so I am glad that a feminist could enjoy it. I actually agree with much of feminism, I just have a few issues with it that frustrate me so much I no longer identify as one.

      "However, with getting in my soapbox" - Nothing wrong with that. It's what I did with the Take. :P

      "As a feminist I do not seek to tear men down... I hope some people can understand that." - I actually don't believe that feminists hate men, I just believe that the movement isn't sure about how to deal with men and it shows some problems with it in my opinion. It's why so many think they're "man-haters".

    • You're welcome. And I think I could agree with you on the confusion on how to "treat" (for lack of better word) men... And this confusion reflects out.

    • But thanks for seeing things both ways... It's nice to see that for once.

  • MaiNameIsSunshine
    As a feminist, I still liked this take very much!
    You provided a great argument and solidified it with evidence. Can't argue with a strong argument and evidence.☺☺☺
    • Anonymous

      Thanks. :)

  • hellionthesage
    Then you have the fact that women where never oppressed. The complete one sided representation of history that only mentions womens "oppression" convincing everyone that men are somehow inherintly sociopathic (since according to feminist philosophy they treated women as objects which is sociopathic behavior). The fact that women couldn't vote is touted by feminist, but not the fact that men couldn't either. They got the vote a whopping 70 years before feminist, and how did they do that? By being drafted and dying in wars that women never where required to participate in, not even after they got the right to vote. Women couldn't own property when married, ignoring the fact that men had to pay the taxes on it and pay off any debt his wife accrued even if it meant going to jail if he couldn't. Women where treated like property, except that we had/have a women first policy which resulted in 100 women dying on the titanic as opposed to the 1358 men all of which died so that women who where supposedly less important then them, escape unharmed. Its lies plain and simple. jezebel.com/.../have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have
    thoughtcatalog.com/.../
    thoughtcatalog.com/.../
    thoughtcatalog.com/.../
  • AleDeEurope
    This is why I believe feminism in the West is pointless.
    Also, like I always say: there's a reason why feminism and egalitarianism aren't synonyms.
    If you support TRUE gender equality, you're an egalitarian, not a feminist, and I'm an egalitarian.
  • youknowitt
    Simply because your title had the word "men" first, before "women".
    • Anonymous

      Are you serious?

    • youknowitt

      haha yeah #GenderEquality :p

    • You're kidding right?

    • Show All
  • angelling
    I think feminism tends to lack clear goals and what they're protesting for so until that's sorted I can't join in with it. Everyone has such a different meaning of what it means and what it stands for, it's confusing.
    • Anonymous

      Agreed. It doesn't help that even they disagree with what they want. They can make their goals really vague by saying they want 'equality' but pretty much everyone does these days.

    • angelling

      The most I hear about is the wage gap and not being able to do what they want. But they can do what they want if they live in a certain country, they should focus on the women who really have issues like not being able to receive an education and being harmed/jailed for having an opinion. Not wanting to wear a short skirt or not having to shave. They seem so tiny compared to issues that actual women in the world face. Feminism is blurred, we have ladies who are a lot more privileged than they think (free education, ability to go to work, can wear what they want) 'fighting' for what they think is important but really it's not. And heaven forbid if you don't agree with them. They're all about choices until you make the choice they don't agree with!

    • Anonymous

      Exactly. I read an article yesterday about male privilege that lamented that women can't pee outside like men. lol
      Compare that with racism in the police force.

    • Show All
  • Anpu23
    I am a staunch anti-feminist, but I enjoyed your my take. Thanks for taking the time to write this.
    • Anonymous

      Thank you. :)

  • TheEpicWindmill
    Feminism has become irrelevant. It was necessary back then, but now feminists have made up lies to keep themselves going without any of these issues happening.
    • Anonymous

      Some of the issues they pick on don't help. Often they can be minor, petty issues.

    • Yes, I've spent a long time destroying feminist myths, but they still keep coming with these ridiculous claims. They even got the President of the United States saying their bullshit. It's a shame honestly...

    • Anonymous

      There's no opposition in mainstream media. Even people who say they want equality but shy from the feminist tag get criticised. They've shamed men into silently accepting whatever s#! t they come up with.

  • Kinstrome
    The problem I see is that saying feminism is about equal rights doesn't answer most of the issues that actually come up. For instance, most people with level heads think that men and women should be able to make the same amount of money, but that doesn't mean an employer by necessity must pay a certain amount beyond what he (or she) thinks that person is worth. Nor does that answer whether or not the wage gap is compiled using statistically accurate means.

    Still, I find pretty few feminists that I dislike outside of places like Jezebel. As long as they respect themselves and others and aren't bent on censorship or falsified statistics, they aren't doing any harm to me or anyone else. Most GAG feminists have been pretty reasonable.
    • Anonymous

      True. Because of the Internet, we always hear of the extreme examples.

  • ccp16
    I really liked this take, I often find myself trying to show how subtly things you have no control over are sexist... as soon as I say something pro feminism though, people just descend and call me a beta male, or allowing men to take over the power that men hold or I am betraying my own gender and I should know that feminism only hurts men.

    I disagree with all of these and hopefully your take will help other guys and even more so women, on how to realistically approach these issues with men to get us on their side as well.
    • Anonymous

      Thanks very much. :)
      I find myself in similar situations, caught between not feeling comfortable with the feminist tag and the terrible 'anti feminists'. These days, it's like people, particularly feminists, are just trying to swallow up those in the middle ground.

    • ccp16

      Yes indeed... One good example for me is male rape victims by women. A great example of how these gender roles and stereotypes are two faced and can cut both genders down... On one side, I have men saying you are either gay or weak for thinking sex with a woman is rape and I have had feminist say I am trying to take away the issue of rape from women... how how do you win when you just want to cut such problems out? lol

    • Anonymous

      Exactly. I see issues that affect men but feminists see them as threats that could derail the conversation, rather than two sides of the same coin and tackling it together with male feminists.
      Unfortunately, I think feminism in it's current form, is about female power which is good to an extent but it leaves little room for compromise or sympathy for men, which imho accounts for it's low popularity.

  • The_Empty
    Basically this, it's sites like Buzzfeed (bastion of sexism and hypocrisy) that makes me so critical of them, especially since they focus on nonsensical problems rather than real women's issues.
    • Anonymous

      Exactly. It's hard to take feminism seriously when I see headlines like "Teaching my daughter to cook doesn't make me a bad feminist" or various articles discussing the cultural impact of high heels.

    • The_Empty

      Or Buzzfeed, decrying sexual objectification, or, hell, being attracted to women with fit bodies, and then making articles about the asses and bulges on male actors, like, how hypocritical can you get?

    • Anonymous

      They completely lack any kind of self awareness. There is no genuine voice against feminism bar people complaining online.

  • Bards
    If people in the west let go of feminisn, who will uphold it? The people in the middle east?

    A lot of the funding for programs that help women in the Middle East are funded by western feminists.
    • Anonymous

      I'm not saying they should let go of feminism, I think feminism should change and realise that it can't change the world when most of the people in the West still don't agree with it after 100 years, 3 phases and countless celebrities and victories for feminism and it STILL isn't popular.

  • gotc147
    Just ask any feminist this question: what do you not have now that you expect feminist to get for you?

    Anything they come up with they already have, like equal pay, they just throw so much dung around they get gullible people to actually think they don't have these things.

    Like all left-wing movements, it's about power.
  • muspelhem_5
    Very eloquent Take.

    Ironically, Julie Burchill's son apparently offed himself this year.
    • Anonymous

      Seriously? That's tragic.
      Wonder if she's changed her mind.

    • Yeah, me too. How couldn't she? :(

  • Chromekids
    Feminism is a result of female oppression. What started off as equal rights swung violently to superior rights. Feminism now is about being a boss bitch that beats up men when it started as a fight against making women house slaves. Only 50 years ago women were taught in school that their whole goal in life was to marry and serve a successful man. My grandfathers generation was expected to have a wife and a side chick.
    • Women weren't as oppressed as they think they were. Both genders were held to gender roles, and had their own issues. There were policies back then that were unfair to both genders. Ignoring the issues men faced back then while promoting the idea that only women had it rough is what breeds this mistrust feminists have in men today.

    • Chromekids

      What issues did men face back then?

  • VampireEmpress
    I think it bothers people for the same reason gay marriage does. it changes the standards of everything!
    • Jager66

      Nah it's more like Feminists are the new Theists on the internet. There is a battle of logic going on between Feminism and the rest of the world, one which Feminism is loosing badly, just like the Theists did.

    • @Jager66 people HATE when the standards change more than anything.

    • Jager66

      it might be that simple for some people but for most anty Feminists I really doubt thats the reason. Unless you mean it in a very broad sense, like how Feminism like to change things such as shifting the burden of proof onto the accused instead of the long a well established ethical and logical standard of having it on the accuser. In that sense it is right to hate the change, didn't we learn anything from the Inquisition or witch trials?

  • Chris_Pratt
    I treat everyone equally. Okay, that's a lie. I am biased towards women. :)
    • Anonymous

      Then you're a feminist. :P

    • Anonymous

      And probably a bit like me.

    • I wouldn't say I am a feminist I just believe in chivalry and being a good man. :)

    • Show All
  • Anonymous
    I think the word feminist is a big reason why people hate it. It basically has feminine right in the word, which shows a bias towards females. Anything that is about true equality should have a gender neutral term.

    If feminists want to say they are only about focusing on issues where women have problems with today, then I think a lot of people would be more fine with it. But when all they do is focus on women's issues and claim they are about equality, then that comes off as a bit comical and harder to take seriously.
  • Anonymous
    This is exactly why I dislike feminism. It basically posits the notion that men have zero issues and women are oppressed, when the truth is men have their own share of issues and women have plenty of advantages too.
  • Anonymous
    Feminist hate men, don't shave and cry wolf on everything. In a feminist world, if you give a woman flowers, that's rape to them.
  • Anonymous
    I keep hearing 'People are ignorant to the real meaning of feminism'. This seems to be one of the mottos of feminists. The truth is, just like how everything else changes and evolves, so does feminism. It may have started as an equal right movement (which by the way has succeeded since women have many rights now), but along the way, it changed. The actions and wrong practice of feminism has overshadowed the real meaning and motive. So, people aren't ignorant, or should I say MOST people who don't want to be labeled as feminists or want anything to do with it aren't ignorant. They just accept the fact that feminism has changed and is superseded by idiots.
    • Anonymous

      I'd agree. Most people agree with the concept of gender equality but still shy away from the definition of feminism. I believe this is because most don't believe that feminism really wants gender equality or they believe that feminists are, generally, extremists.

  • Anonymous
    Feminism was created to destabilize the family unit.
  • Anonymous
    Lists like these look at numbers but not the whole picture as to why the numbers are so high. Here's why blaming feminism is wrong:
    1. Education
    According to U. S. Department of Education information, men make up only 44% of college applicants. Colleges can’t accept students who don’t apply. But why do fewer men even bother applying to college in the first place?

    Men are more likely to drop out of high school than women in nearly all states, though by varying degrees and with low-income and minority men much more likely to drop out than all other students. Even those who stay in school may not see college as an option. Male students are less likely to take AP courses and exams, which have long been used to earn college credit hours before enrolling in college.

    It should also be noted that the national male-female ratio for 18-24 year olds is actually 51-49, meaning there are more (traditionally) college-aged males than females.

    More and more older Americans are heading back to school, often part time or in the evenings, and their rate of enrollment is rising faster than students of typical college age. In 2009, students aged 25 and older accounted for roughly 40 percent of all college and graduate students, according to the National Center for Education Statistics.
    www.forbes.com/.../
    collegestats.org/.../
    www.nbcnews.com/.../back-school-older-students-rise-college-classrooms-n191246

    2. Suicide
    Why are men more likely to die by suicide, even though women have the higher percent of trying, also known as, The gender paradox in suicide? It’s principally a question of method. Women who attempt suicide tend to use nonviolent means, such as overdosing. Men often use firearms or hanging, which are more likely to result in death.
    www.theguardian.com/.../suicide-gender-men-women-mental-health-nick-clegg
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9560163

    3. Underage Sex
    That's just one opinion which most courts do not follow. Female educators who sexually abuse their students are facing tougher prosecution in part because there are more women police officers. "Law enforcement is increasingly feminized, and women are much less prone to the old attitude: 'Oh, this is just some kid who got lucky,'" said David Finkelhor, director of the Crimes Against Children Research Center. "They recognize the issues involved and they go after women who violate the statutes."
    www.reuters.com/.../us-usa-crime-teachers-idUSKBN0NC14H20150421

    THE BIG LIST: FEMALE TEACHERS WITH STUDENTS - Most comprehensive account on Internet of women predators on campus
    www.wnd.com/2014/08/39783/#epdwTGZktMXjWbe6.99
    • Anonymous

      4. Divorce:
      Divorce is handled on individual bases not as a whole. The same article that you used sited why men do not receive alimony at the rate women do:

      The reason? Die-hard gender roles, a bitter fight from breadwinning wives and macho pride, say family attorneys. And in some parts of the country, judges are flat-out sexist.

      “Gender equality is a relatively new concept in the span of history, and old stereotypes die hard,” says San Francisco Bay area divorce attorney Mark Ressa. “A successful man is considered a breadwinning man, and asking for alimony is considered emasculating.”

      “I’d love to have that money, but I’d never hit a girl and I’d never beg from a girl — and I see palimony as begging ,” says Craig, who at age 53 attributes his attitude, in part, to his generation.

      Simply Put, most men don't ask for alimony out of pride.

    • Anonymous

      Thanks for your very detailed response and I will try and read them all fully later.

      What I would say is that I'm not blaming feminism for these. My point is that feminism doesn't care. If the same circumstances apllied to women, feminism would chase these issues constantly. As it is, only men suffer so feminism is indifferent towards them.

    • anon4122

      Lol main reason I'm not a feminist they hate that people are not feminists far more than they hate people who represent them poorly. It is an ideological movement so what people see is what they will think of you every ideology faces this problem.

    • Show All
  • Anonymous
    I like this take. I'm egalitarian, and I have a veeery feminist friend who tends to just dismiss all of men's problems as, "Actually these are women's problems and if we fixed it for women it would be fixed for men." While I do get where she's coming from, I don't think she understands how that comes across as dismissive and lacking in empathy. And often, if you mention a problem that guys are having, she scoffs and starts comparing problems. Which is, again, dismissive. Comparing woes is never a good way to communicate with people, because all it communicates is, "I have more/worse problems (maybe objectively, maybe subjectively), so yours are invalid." And again, I don't think she understands that that's what she's doing.

    But she swears she supports men, too.

    Everyone's rights are important, but it's not enough to just -say- that. You have to act like it, too. And I think a lot of feminists, whether they realize it or not, are not acting like men's problems matter too. They can focus on women's rights, fine, but they shouldn't be surprised when some people are put off by the way they address other's problems, because it isn't nearly as graceful as it could or should be.

    This bothers me a lot, sorry for rambling, haha.
    • Anonymous

      Good post; thanks.

      Don't worry about rambling. That's what this whole Take is about! :P

    • evenlift

      You really have two options: support feminism or oppose it. Somewhat criticizing it and doing so anonymously will not really make any difference. As I commented on another take on this subject, men are losing trust and even interest in women (and, among the men who are still interested, many are utterly unattractive to women because of feminism's destruction of masculine charm, hence many modern men's utter inability even to approach women), and very few women acknowledge what's going on. Nothing less than huge opposition right now from women to feminism will stop this increasing disconnection between the two sexes. So, while I appreciate your sentiment, it's just not enough. By the way, feminist women don't give a damn about you. You have nothing to lose by pissing them off!

    • Anonymous

      @evenlift
      I support feminism in theory, I don't support how some people practice it. And maybe it's not effective here (this post in particular isn't really intended to change any minds), but I have been able to at least make people understand opposing opinions, such as why some people dislike feminism, by being understanding while I disagree, and I have seen friends change the way they act/think after having good discussions. I think that's a step in the right direction, even if it's not as huge as you prefer.

      I don't think feminism needs to be opposed, I think there needs to be a bigger push for balance. As much progress as has been made, there's still more needed, and so feminism is still needed (as are other interest groups). I'm not trying to avoid pissing them off, I just don't oppose the concept of women's rights.

  • Anonymous
    Good take!
    • Anonymous

      Thank you. :)

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