Some People Need to Brush up on the Necessity and Definition of Feminism

[RedMasta]

It seems that over the past few years especially, as feminism becomes more and more focused on in the limelight, that the true definition of it is demonized and distorted.

At a core, feminism is simply the fight to have women equal to men in every way; professionally, socially, economically, and politically. While everybody who identifies as a feminist shares the same core belief, there are those who take it to an extreme level. With any sort of ideal or belief, there is always a radical side; hence where the term "feminazis" come from.

These radical feminists give the ideal as a whole a poor, toxic image to the rest of the world. While feminism is about equality, the radical view is that females are superior to males. This is false, of course, as is the opposite. While there are certainly those who believe this wholeheartedly, the majority of people who identify as feminists want nothing more than true equality between the sexes.

However, this is difficult to truly achieve due to the constant backlash that feminism unfairly receives. In order for this to be realized, there must be more of an understanding of what this ideal is at its true level.

I encourage everybody to take some time to read and research what feminism actually is all about with as little preconceived ideas as possible. Make your own choice and thoughts on this issue. There is nothing wrong with feminism at its core, and is in fact a good thing. Equality is what is fought for, and in order for it to be successful, it needs to be understood and discussed.

Naturally, this will get flak from some, but please, keep the conversation civil. I'm curious what people's stances on this are.

[ZhiHana]

There are countries who need feminism MUCH MUCH MORE than lets say the US, where there are a lot of what I like to call extreme feminists. I guess those people make a bad name for feminism in general. I absolutely despise the extreme ones. Not only do they think they're better than men, they also believe (insert first world country) is the worst place to be female. I've also seen women say that they wish all men would die or that all men are rapists. That kind of thinking is problematic.

[FatherJack]

Sadly you are right , I have had the misfortune of ( briefly ) having to deal with these misandrist nutters at a former workplace... I walked out , straight into another employment. They wanted a human male free world !

[MlleCake]

Nice to know you see it too. No movement is entirely defined by extremists.

I don't define all men by their extremists either.

[Eternal_Blizzard]

No movement is entirely defined by extremists.

But it is highlighted by them... sadly

[BrianMerritt]

But it's not just the extremists that people disagree with; a LOT of feminism is ridiculous, not just the extremists.

[CoffeeWC]

Women and men are not always meant to be equal in everything because there are biological aspects that cannot be controlled by each gender. For example, men are generally physically stronger than women. Women are generally more in tune with their emotions. These differences make certain roles more suited to a specific gender. As always, there are exceptions, but gender equality doesn't make society the most efficient it can be.

[UncleJessieRabbit]

Biologically, I think that's correct. But "equality" in the context here only refers to the legal meaning.

[ChurchOfIron]

That's called the No True Scotsman logical fallacy.

"All true Scotsman wear kilts."
"Well, my uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't wear a kilt."
"Well, he's not a *True* Scotsman."

Feminists use this idea of "feminazis" as a scapegoat for any venom that comes out of feminism. So Feminism always remains pure, even if it keeps producing feminazis. That way no one can ever ask "Why do feminazis keep coming out of feminism?"

I have taken the time to research what feminism is all about. I've read feminist literature and feminist theory. I called myself a feminist until I was 22. A long-ass time.

But, do you think that a short definition encapsulates a 100 year old social movement? Equality sounds amazing. That's great. We should all be equal, yeah? I totally agree. The thing is, you have to *define* equality. And the way in which feminist *defines* equality. That is not included in the bland dictionary definition, which is misleading, as it sets people up.

In other words, feminists can say "all it means is equality. If you're not for feminism, you're not for equality." Which is incorrect and an intimidation tactic.

You have to note some tenets of feminism.

"Men created society in such a way so as to benefit men at the expense of women."

"Marriage was slavery and female oppression."

These are not included in the simplistic definition, but they are profoundly important cornerstones to the feminist movement. Men are the oppressors. Women are the victims.

I happen to disagree with these premises, as I think they look down on men and women alike. Men oppressed women for thousands of years, so men are domineering, violent, douchebags who never did anything but look down on women and make them suffer.

What about the millions of men who died working in coal mines, fighting, farming to support their families? Feminism would have us believe they came home every day to beat their wives, as the norm. No, that the loving husband working hard to support his wife, he was the exception.

These are the subtext underneath those claims. I do not agree with that. I think women liked the way things were until they didn't. And when they didn't like the way things were anymore, society changed. As it continues to change. Quite easily, in contrast to other truly oppressed peoples.

[MementoMori_]

"Feminism" has been a part of the human code for at least all of recorded modern history and probably since the dawn of modern man 200,000 years ago. Women have been pissed off at men probably since they were first appointed the sole biological birthers of the babies at the dawn of mankind.

The real question seems to me, not why aren't women considered "equal" but why, after so many millennia of making an issue out of this is it still an issue (if it is an issue at all, I am not necessarily agreeing that it is). If feminism hasn't been successful after all of this time, doesn't that suggest there is some kind of flaw in the goal?

I think the flaw is that women who are obsessed with this topic have either the conscious or subconscious delusional belief that they are somehow the *same* as men. And of course "equal" and "same" are not the same concept.

Women are already "equal" to men in terms of their rights, at least in America that is. There is no nation in the history of mankind that has granted more equality or opportunity to women than the America. Yet, somehow the ancient pursuit of "feminism" still survives as if this isn't true. So you have to ask yourself, since women already have equality, what the heck is this all about?

The answer is that women who are obsessed with "feminism" want something that is never going to happen. They want a denial of their biological function and role. They resent that they are the ones who bear the children and are naturally equipped to perform the lion's share of their day to day care and upbringing. They resent the fact that when they make the choice to have children, they are making a choice to sacrifice things that men don't have to sacrifice.

I get that. To state is succinctly, it's penis envy. You are not happy with equality, you want sameness.

But in spite of those who make their political living telling you that if you vote for them you can -- you can't wish away reality. Women are not the same as men. They are physically, psychologically and emotionally different from men and their roles in the continuation of the species always were and always will be different because of that.

[AlexanderBrunnrgaard]

Once again this desperation to cling to a doctrine which since long forfeited what it at one point in history stood for. What's curious is that you're only painting a picture of what you *want* feminism to be, with little evidence to substantiate your claims. If it's true the majority of those calling themselves feminists stand for nothing more than fairness between sexes, where are they? Because all we ever hear from this movement are the crazy pants. The icons of feminism who appear in debates, tv etc. espouses very harmful principles, which rather than seeking fairness aims to erase any sort of difference between the sexes whilst simultaneously blaming men for being the root of all evil due to their sex.

Feminism is hardly what it was once upon a time, let's look at a historic context. The first wave feminism committed acts of terrorism in Paris in the nineteenth century against people and property. The second wave was the only time they actually did fight for women's suffrage and equal rights. But mind you, this was helped along by many, many men in politics, conservatives. In fact, a great deal of women opposed themselves gaining the right to vote.

Third wave feminism is abhorrent. Riddled with man-hatred, biology-denial, and an overall femicentric worldview that has nothing to do with equality, which, in case you've all forgotten, must include Men.

You don't have to go by the name feminist to stand for equality. Countless of people do not and condemn feminist movements across the world for exclusion of males in debate, made up structures, denial of well established scientific facts, and this "we against them" mentality. This is heavily prevalent among feminists in my country. Feminism today paints a culture of victim hood as if women alone suffers in this world, victims of a supposed patriarchy which still lingers behind the scenes keeping women down. It's conspiracy theories fundamentally. Thing is, all facts tell a different tale.

We don't. need. feminism. We need is the realization that we have a fair society, by and large already in the West with equal opportunities for all. As well as the fact that equality isn't always the answer. Men and women are different in many ways, we're supposed to be, it's a good thing. And that differences in society pertaining to work/wages are due to choices, not patriarchy.

[AlexanderBrunnrgaard]

And just in case anyone considers belittling me for being a man on this subject, countless women I know are just as adamantly opposed to feminism, seeing as the movement patronizes their ability to be intelligent and make their own choices in life and achieve what they strive for on their on. Feminists here advocate a system which strives to create a 50/50% statistics on the market, i. e. if you're a woman, the state nudges you into a position on a board or workplace etc.

[Anonymous]

People mostly don't have a problem with feminism because of radical feminists who are obvious man-haters. Those people are mostly just nobodies who rant against men on the internet and are harmless.

People have a problem with what feminist organisations do, and policies pushed for and put in place by feminists. The political actions in the name of feminism that make a real impact. This is where anti-feminists get the idea that feminism = female superiority.

Things such as gender quotas and affirmative action that give women a leg-up when it comes to employment sometimes involving the lowering of standards for women to get more of them in. Free university courses offered to women only to increase their numbers despite women being the majority of college students. The push for women to receive less or even no jail time for their crimes despite already being given lesser sentences for the same crimes as men, a gap which feminists don't like to talk about. The denial of male domestic violence victims, with such a high number of female only domestic violence shelters and so much more help for women than for men, often feminists do all they can to block men's domestic violence shelters from opening because they want the funding to go mostly to women.

It's things like that which give feminism a bad name, that feminists like yourself don't understand. Many feminists on the internet talk about the dictionary definition, what "true" feminism is, and maybe you and others believe in true equality, although the majority tend to argue in favour of all of the things I mentioned above. But even if you're a really reasonable feminist, just like those radical feminists, you're just a person on the internet with an opinion, with no real political power. Defending feminism while those things I mentioned are done by those feminists with real political power.

[AD240pCharlie]

"Feminism is about equality". Alright, I'll accept that. But what does that mean? Most people, feminist or not, will agree that equality is a good thing, but what they WILL disagree on is what that term actually means.
If saying that men and women are equal means that we are ACTUALLY "equal" in the literal meaning of the word - as in exactly the same - then I disagree. There are physical, mental and behavioral differences caused by our biology and evolutionary history. If you mean that men and women should be treated as if they ARE exactly equal under the law, then I'd support that.
Also, what kind of equality are we talking about? Equality of outcome or equality of opportunity? They're mutually exclusive. If you want equality of opportunity, then you'll never have equality of outcome, and if you want equality of outcome, then you'll never have equality of opportunity as you'd have to implement quotas.
Mostly, I just hate the entire debate climate. People only care about labels. "That guy is bad because he doesn't called himself a feminist, that girl is good because she DOES call herself a feminist." - "That guy is bad because he calls himself a feminist, but that guy is good because he doesn't call himself a feminist." It doesn't matter that they might actually agree on a lot of issues, it only matters that they don't use the same word.

[passinby]

Stalin was a feminist and feminists are Stalinists. Feminism at the top is the deployment of Stalinism and feminism at the bottom where the useful-idiots are, is a mental illness and cancerous in nature. Feminists at the top, the 3rdwavers and feminist-Nazis are the ones in charge and control the weak minds of their followers to such a degree that some shave their heads dye their hair green, walk around naked, scream at the wind, curse all men for being born, and just hate. Pure mass hysteria and psychosis are eminent in this weak-minded group. So there is your brush-up on feminism pansy as...

[TheyCallMeTayTay]

Depends on what type of feminist you are, If you whine and complain about manspreading, mansplaining, or anything of that, then you're not a feminist, you're just a whiney bitch. If you stand up for the belief that men and women should find a middle ground where there are no specific problems, then you're an actual feminist, a feminist who doesn't deserve the backlash for the women who have dirtied the term and ruined it for you.

But to add my opinion, feminism isn't really needed in the u. s, there are plenty of other states and countries that actually have to have the feminism that they're not getting

[evm987]

I'm very happy to see a male on this site who actually understands what feminism is supposed to be and the idea that feminism at it's core is not bad! I often don't like calling myself a feminist on here because of all the people who will immediately assume I hate men and think women are superior.

There's only one place I can think of where equality is not necessarily... necessary? And it maybe sounds like I'm saying women are superior, but that's not my opinion. Maternity leave versus paternity leave: yes, I get that fathers may want time off work just after a child is born to take care of them and that is definitely a legitimate thing. But for mothers... they literally just went through a huge physical event that requires recovery time. So paternity leave and maternity leave are NOT the same thing. But both are good things

[VIVANT]

Well said. Composed reasonable and I agree with your points 😊😊

[AD240pCharlie]

Here in Sweden, quite a lot of the bigger political parties agree with the proposal to make it compulsory for parents to split the parental leave 50/50 between them. Why the heck should the government determine who should be home with the baby? It should be up to the parents to decide how they want to share it. Also, what if the Dad makes a lot more money than the Mom, or vice versa? Then it makes a lot more sense for the other one to stay at home.

[BrittBratt2416]

You got it! I just said this on another post about feminism. the extreme ones are usually the loudest in the group and get the most attention in the media cause it's controversial.

The media knows whats gets viewed and what doesn't, so they push and highlight the crazies within the movement to probably maybe make it look bad but to also get views.

If there was a group of extremely sexist men shouting how women were inferior that got media attention, other men would say that those men don't define them but some are quick to define all feminist as evil. I look at both sides of feminism and see the good and the bad, but some people are only stuck at looking at the bad cause that way they have a reason to stick with what they already believe about feminist or feminism.

[Jager66]

There is a political term for this, it is called "useful idiot". They are the people who believe in the lies and propaganda of the power hungry corrupt leaders of a political movement.

Feminism is a perfect, text book case of this.

[LogicBomber]

You need to look less at the definition and more at the actions.
The CORE of feminism has always been misandry.

The most famous voices (greer, solanas, dworkin, steinem, etc) have ALL been man-hating.

The biggest organizations (NOW, WAR, Women’s UN) have ALL pushed common feminist lies and false victimhood.
NOW has on multiple occasions stopped the equal rights of men and fathers.

I encourage you to actually research feminism outside it’s echo chamber. It isn’t hard to show the truth of their actions and lies. (Which is why they often use shit 3rd world countries as their scapegoat when they need actual female issues).

Western women are the most privileged group of humans to ever exist.

The backlash feminism gets is warranted.

[Anonymous]

I agree that some feminists take it too far but that is a very small minority of people and I’ve been called ‘feminazi’ for saying stuff in support for the me too movement for example. I don’t know anyone who thinks women is superior to men. Yet men use feminazi as a way to denounce any feminist movement that challenges the starus quo. Women were called feminazis for reporting sexual abuse, because men were angry that they could no longer get away with sexual misconduct that they’ve been doing for centuries. Instead of screaming ‘feminazi’ - which is a disgusting word because no feminist should be called a Nazi, maybe listen to what the other person is saying. Let’s stop using that demeaning word and stop using the excuse of the 2% feminists that are radical as a reason to demote the ENTIRE movement. Nowadays if you’re not a feminist I am judging

[Lightning8]

I have identified as femenist and held the same disbelief at how people have skewed the definition of feminism away from something as obvious as equality. This was especially so during the 2016 election.

Where I find confusion/uncertainty for my own stance at this time is in how things like economics, careers, wealth, power and rights are not the only things I feel should be equal, if inherently different sexes are going to be equal. (I do feel women should have the same opportunities.) Women have massive social privelage and given all legal and economic issues are equal or close, there is a collossal social and romantic imbalance in the woman's favor that law can't do anything about. And this isn't a minority, it's half the population so the consequenses on society are greater. I just question whether feminism in reality actually leads to equality.

[Aynsof]

Feminism is about furthering the cause of females
Now that cause has historically been to achieve equality because in many ways females didn't have it
The more equality is approached other goals appear
The stance that is inherently about equality is egalitarianism not feminism
To have a single gender based stance claim the cause of equality is in itself inherently inequal
That said feminism is mostly not like the radical misandrist outliers they are just very vocal like the radical fanatics in most any group are

[BluesheepOwl]

I mean we aren't equal biologically, obviously. If anyone wants to protest me that be prepared to get into anatomy. I studied that shit and parts of the brain are different between men and women. It's a fact. But if you want equality socially then that's where feminism originally came from.

[VIVANT]

😑EQUALITY refers to the LAW not each individual trait. Human beings are not equal- regardless if they are the same sex or different sex. Laws are made to attempt to equalize what is not equal. So that society may run as smoothly as possible and political participation cam at its maximum potential.

No one means ‘people are the same’ when they talk about equality. It means to have equal rights. Not equal bodies.

[VIVANT]

Sorry! This was not meant to be put here 😐

[Gavyn]

@VIVANT Lies. It JUST SO HAPPENS that your reply to the "wrong person" replies talking about what the OP touched on? Yeah, I'm not buying it.

[BluesheepOwl]

I'm confused. I don't know what happened here..

[Pink2000]

I don’t think feminism is relevant in first world countries. In my opinion, American feminist only fight for themselves.

[Anonymous]

You are mistaken about what feminism really is. It has nothing to do with equality, and it never has. It has always been about advancing the interests of women without regard for men or their needs. That is not equality. It is purely self-interest. Equality, by definition, must consider both sides of an equation.

The bottom line is that feminism is as feminism does, and what feminism does in the western world is deplorable. It accomplishes very little of value but it does succeed in generating a lot of sexism, hatred and resentment and driving a wedge between men and women. It is a very divisive force that fosters an us-versus-them mentality that does so much more harm than good.

That is the REALITY of feminism, and it is the yardstick by which it should be judged.

[ThisAndThat]

Under your definition of feminism feminism is a past thing and should have ended when things were equal. Women by far have the advantage over men now and that's fact reflected by the statistics. So to declare feminism now goes to the category of 3rd wave feminazism as you mentioned. There can be no other reason for it to exist anymore.

[ThisAndThat]

And I'd like to add that less than 10% of men are awarded custody of their children even in a divorce where a woman cheats on a man. She has and still will take his children and he'll be lucky if he gets to see them at all. And they'll label him a deadbeat dad if he fails to pay child support while living in his car because all his money goes to child support. And when it comes to things like accountability criminal or civil 22% of the entire worlds prison population is right here in the USA and nearly all are men. Women aren't required to fight in wars and they aren't even required to register for the draft. That's because women aren't held to the same standards as men that's fact and that's not quality.

[Ellie-V]

If I hit you, you have every right to beat the breaks off of me. That is feminism, and feminism is awesome.
Black eyes for all 😘💕

[AD240pCharlie]

That's racist!

[Ellie-V]

@AD240pCharlie it’s not.

[AuroraHorizon]

Sounds like someone is pissed that they can't just hit people and not have the same done to them in return.
If you seriously expect people to have the self control not to hit back, you should all the more have the self control not to hit FIRST.