Gender Equality - Where it is and isn’t appropriate

[Jxpxtxr]

For all those of you who read the headline and immediately thought “Oh god, not a feminist ranting about how we need feminism again” - No, this is not a MyTake on feminism or egalitarianism (although they are pretty much the same thing in the aspect of women’t rights in my opinion really) - this is simply a MyTake on where we actually need Gender Equality and where we don’t/just can’t have it.

In the nineteenth century, the central moral challenge was slavery. In the twentieth century, it was the battle against totalitarianism. We believe that in this century the paramount moral challenge will be the struggle for gender equality around the world. – Nicholas D. Kristof, Half the Sky

So let’s start with the social, economical and legal issues.

I think everyone who isn’t in any way sexist will agree that women and men deserve the same pay for the same job and effort they put into it, that fathers should have the same rights and oppotunities to get guardianship for their children in case of divorce and that it should be equally socially acceptable for women to ask men out without being made fun of or being viewed as desperate as well as that men shouldn’t still be expected to pay for everything exactly as women shouldn’t still be expected to only stay home and do the housework.

There are so, so many more examples I could give you of how unacceptable the traditional gender roles have become in terms of gender equality in the social, economical and legal aspects here and there’s no point in arguing that gender equality is for women’s or men’s benefit only here since it indeed is for the benefit of both genders.

There are, however, aspects of life in which women and men will never be equal - simply because they can’t be. I’m referring to emotions, biology and physicality.

Women are just not built the same way men are, they don’t have the same preconditions to be as physically strong as men, so there are going to be certain jobs that requite physical strength hence are just naturally going to be more suitable for men (like working in construction, being a soldier, being a firefighter, etc.) as well as there are jobs that are mostly concerned with social (caring) aspects which women tend to engage with more (such as working in kindergartens, nursing homes or hospitals).

That is just one example of how our physical/biological attributes determine and differ the expectations others have when they view us and our gender based occupations in working life.

Women and men are also majorly different in the way they think and perceive their environment.

Different regions of the brain have been proven by neuroscience to be more active depending on what gender you are hence it is impossible to expect men and women to react just equally to certain situations.

(If you wanna read more regarding this you should check our this article: https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/men-women-different-brains.htm)

So there’s actually a pretty good proof being given here to why men and women simply can’t be equal in each and every single aspect of life but when it comes to legal issues and the way people still look at traditional gender roles and judge us based on our choices we certainly should be. (Some countries still value a human being based on their gender even today!)

We pledge ourselves to liberate all our people from the continuing bondage of poverty, deprivation, suffering, gender and other discrimination. – Nelson Mandela

Never let anyone tell you, you can't do something just because you're a man or a woman.

I just wrote this MyTake because I had a feeling that these, sometimes pretty significant, differences regarding our genders are something many people don’t really seem to take into account when they speak up for or against gender equality so I just hope this could give you a better insight, but of course in the end what you think is all up to you.

[Riggers]

As much as i like your take, The ''women and men deserve the same pay for the same job'' really made my blood boil.

Women DO get payed equally to men in the west, Infact, In some jobs they actually get payed more (Modelling, Stripping, Legal Prostitution etc..), But, All other jobs, Its equal, You said it yourself, Men go for more physical jobs whilst women, Generally more Mental jobs.
That is why a 'Wage Gap' exists, Because men generally take jobs which give thema harder life, You could work in construction for 50 years and have broken lots of bones, Back pains, Knee pains, Pains everywhere!, But if you work as a teacher for 50 years... well... nothing? Men get paid more on average because they work more demanding jobs.

The only places where REAL wage gaps exist is third world nations where women DO get payed less for the EXACT SAME JOB. We should be trying to change that, But here in the west (US/UK/EU/Commonwealth) Men and women DO get payed the same for the same job for the same hours. if companies could get away with paying women less for the same work, Then surely they would just shit-can all guys and hire only females right? They would save SOOOOOO much money... But they dont do that, because the wage gap in the west is a myth.
static1.squarespace.com/.../

[oracle12c]

You Sir are correct about the "wage gap".

[Kalibie]

So many insist that the pay gap isn't real , but really, even if it's just as some say , that it's just because the jobs we choose pay less...
For one who would choose a job that pays less? Why should it be so hard for woman to find a job that pays more, and secondly, why should traditionally woman jobs so to speak pay less, shouldn't we pay those we trust with our elders and children more?
Perhaps it's true that the wage is the same, but it's definitely true there are way less female bosses, especially in entertainment. And that we don't pay caretakers and teachers enough.

[OpenClose]

For one, we should start seeing more female leadership rapidly these next few decades. If you think about it, many of the current big business leaders came into power or were raised in a time when women were seen as unfit for leadership roles. Supposedly, the majority of small business owners are women now, by a small enough margin to be fairly equal. Once we start seeing these women climb the ladders, we should start seeing things balance out.

[OpenClose]

Second of all, importance doesn't dictate pay. It is mostly supply and demand, and other factors like educational requirements, physical dangers, and demand flexibility.

For instance, engineers are always in demand, but there aren't as many people willing do put up with 4-5 calculus classes and numerous physics classes before even qualifying for classes like linear control systems, semiconductors, and machine design.

On the other hand, there are tons of people wanting to be painters and other artists, and tons more who didn't go to college, yet are better than their college-educated counterparts. On top of that, there are engineers, scientists, doctors, and psychologists who can also paint, write, or play music as well as the art majors. So their demand flexibility is really high. Supply is really high. And jobs are only moderate.

Most girls I know find engineering boring, but flock towards arts and social sciences, which are already oversaturated.

[Kalibie]

@OpenClose
I agree, but I'm not saying they sould be paid like engineers, im saying they shouldn't be paid so little, teachers are the roots of society, my uncle is a teacher yet he struggles to just live, is that really someone you want to teach your children?
Also it's not as easy as you think for artists, true designers are different from people who never took classes. I may be snotty but I pay 60k each semester and there's a reason why companies want us. There are definite leagues when it comes to at school. Art takes just as much work just in a different field, and it takes guts, I'm doing all my tuition on loans so I'm not buying my degree. I spend eight hours on my work everyday. I'm honestly very offended with you dismissing my field of work. Everything needs to be designed, who do you think make cars and houses and movie character designs? Its one of the highest paying jobs and I work and went into debt knowing it's as demanding and competitive as any other profession

[Kalibie]

Little pretty paintings and idealistic painters who don't have the motivation and dedication to attend courses and learn who complain when no one wants their work is just using their hobby as an excuse.
I knew artists that didn't go to school, but at least they went to studios, still they don't get companies coming to them right after graduation.

[OpenClose]

I'm not dissing your profession. My sister and her husband are both graphic designers, and have done great things for their community, and certainly enjoy what they do. And yes, it was a lot of work for them to get there.

My point was primarily to give an example of a saturated job market. There are TONS of people going to school and coming out of school in the arts and social sciences. It was basically the majority at my school. Meanwhile, there are very few jobs in these fields in my area, so nearly all of them are now working at Wal-Mart. Meanwhile, when a position DOES open up, there is so much competition that they can really drop their compensation and still get qualified applicants. For many of the arts, this often goes down to what I think is something deeply insulting: "We won't pay you, but you'll get great exposure."

And then I followed it with the fact that women flock to these professions. These professions weren't shoved onto them.

[OpenClose]

"who do you think make cars and houses and movie character designs?"
Well there's a lot that goes into that question. Yes, you could be an art major and become an industrial designer for cars, or a concept artist for movie character designs. Yes we need these people. Yes their work is valuable.

But for every industrial designer who designs that car, there are hundreds of engineers designing just the engine alone. Electrical engineers designing the controls. Materials engineers designing the actual material that will make up the body and make the design possible. Yet more people are trying to be that one designer and not one of the dozens of engineers.

And houses are built by architects, architectural engineers, surveyors, geologists, and construction workers.

[OpenClose]

And perhaps the biggest crux of all this information is the fact that we need to acknowledge women's freedom of choice when considering the wage gap.

Yes, we find that many or most of the so-called "pink collar" professions pay less than other professions. But we shouldn't act like this is just because they are women. Rather, women seem to take interest in careers that don't often pay well.

And yes, teachers should be paid much more than they are. We need more of them, and they need better pay. That is a key issue I take with me to the voting booth every election.

[Kalibie]

@OpenClose
I suppose I see your point, but still there are much more graphic designers and fine artists then concept artists and industrial designers, there are more jobs than you think as certain modern countries don't even use concept artists yet. (Taiwan for example)
Either way there are too many people thinking art is easy and fun and enter a cheap course then realizing its tough.
As I've said at school have leagues, if you weren't talented enough to get into a world renowned institute like pratt or Rhode island school of design, both to those who did, like me and to all these companies, you are automatically considered sub par.

Personally I don't think it's saturated because God the world is still ugly, and someone is going to have to do the city planning once our population gets too much. I'm not saying we're in as high demand as engineers, but certainly in a better place than many jobs I can think of

[Kalibie]

I find designers a lot more of a profession honestly because of what you described.

Architects and industrial designers need to understand material and all that math perhaps not as well, but certainly to a degree to be able to work with the engineers.
Architects need to understand materials physics and soils to build a feasible structure.

Concept artists are like fine artists, but need to understand reading their clients and especially to appease a large crowd when fine artists can just say oh to each his own. Also to consider how the characters might go through the scene if it's a game.

These

[OpenClose]

"someone is going to have to do the city planning once our population gets too much"

That's civil engineering... just had to point that out. That is literally what some of my friends went to do. Plan cities to more efficiently handle larger populations.

"Architects need to understand materials physics and soils to build a feasible structure."
True, though this is usually the job of structural/architectural engineers. I was actually just looking this up. Architecture falls under the category of both STEM and Fine Arts.

I think there's a lesson to be learned in this whole discussion. There is a ton of overlap between many of the engineering and artistic fields.

Though there are still some that are clearly their own thing. For instance, I doubt waste management engineers need much artistic integrity, and I doubt painters gain much from calculus.

[Kalibie]

@OpenClose
Haha I guess so, in the end this just tells us how important collaboration is. The arts make the world a more pleasing place, and the engineers make it work...
Even web design and concept art have a lot of overlap with programmers.

We kind of need each other you know? I can design some pretty awesome shit but they wouldn't work well, just like if only engineers designed cars the sales would be horrible cause they'd likely end up looking butt ugly.

[nfigure]

Well I think you just about covered it!

/dust-off-hands-because-the-job's-all-done

lol I do agree that anatomical/biological differences are the reason why there shouldn't be -- and probably won't ever be -- equality between the sexes in ALL aspects of life, like having every area or field of society being shared and split 50/50 between the sexes.

Like someone else here mentioned as an easy example: in public places, it's probably more efficient to have separate bathrooms so that the men's side can include urinals, and the women's side can include extra toilets. Trying to "integrate" public bathrooms between the sexes would probably cause more problems, especially in places with large crowds of people needing to do their business, lol. xD

And like you said, men tend to be physically stronger than women are, so certain jobs that need physical strength would understandably employ more men and so not have a 50/50 workforce. HOWEVER, I feel that the hiring process for most jobs should still hold to a case-by-case evaluation. Because some women are more physically capable than some men are, and yet sometimes, a qualified woman might be overlooked in favor of a less qualified man. And sometimes, a man might be better-qualified for a "woman's" job than a woman is.

However, I have also always felt that -- unfortunately -- the very-true biological divide between men and women has also been used through history as a very strong tool against gender equality in other areas that SHOULD be 50/50, or at least equal opportunity. In my opinion, this is partly why it has taken women longer to gain certain civil rights than even some oppressed racial-minority men have taken. Look, even though modern anthropology/genetics have pretty much confirmed for some time that there is only one biological race in the human species --- and that the white/black/Asian/etc. divisions are merely social constructions --- there are still ignorant/racist people who insist that race is a biological reality, and that some races are just "naturally better" for certain jobs: everything from engineering to sports to business and even to porn. xD So since there is actually a REAL biological divide between men and women, it has long been used (and will continue to be used) as a weapon against gender equality, by claiming differences in other areas where there are none. That will be a TOUGH hill to climb, but I hope that it will be overcome someday with better education. :)

[Jxpxtxr]

I hope so, too - and I agree on your opinion on same opportunities (especially in occupations) for everybody.
I think people, and mostly men, are still lacking tolerance for gender equality as they think women being treated equally will take away their masculinity and I think some might even be afraid of the potential that many women have to actually outperform them in some areas of life so.. yeah.. it won't be easy..

[nfigure]

@Jxpxtxr Equality is also being prevented by some women too, especially in the area of personal relationships. Like you mentioned in the Take, there are still women who expect men to approach them first, expect men to be the one in the relationship with the higher income and education level, be significantly physically bigger than she is, etc. In fact, it's not just men who fear losing "masculinity" without these things; some women too even feel that a man is lacking "masculinity" unless he is able to fit these gender roles! =O Equality will have to come from both sides agreeing to cast aside such things.

I've come across some girls who have noted that they were the ones to first approach their boyfriends/husbands, or that their guys were smaller than they were, etc. -- and the girls noted that if they let traditional gender roles hold them back, they may never have gotten to be with the loves of their lives in the first place! =O So a lot is at stake here, lol.

[hellionthesage]

Gender pay gap is a myth, they have shown it to be true, it is based on what jobs and how much time they take off (women take more sick days and work slightly fewer hours on average. Men are more likely to work overtime and work holidays) If there was a gap, then why not have women work and fire the men, it would create a 30% increase in profits instantley without actually having to change anything else?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKf3W4u0jbMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpYXn1e2PHghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TR_YuDFIFI

www.google.com/url
Also it would be strange if there was a gap since women make up 70-80% of global spending. www.fastcodesign.com/.../women-dominate-the-global-market-place-here-are-5-keys-to-reaching-them
Men make up 75% of the homeless population, www.avoiceformen.com/.../
There are plenty more. The problem I have is this discussion of gender neutrality, yet seemingly no neutrality. Men are suffering in all areas of society not women. The issue isn't about empowering men and women, it should be about making sure men are not abandonde as they have been. By perpetuating lies and continued sterotypes you only exacerbate the situation. Neutralitiy starts with facts, your take has almost none and suggests others that are patently false. This serves to continue misleading the populace and thus continue to ignore real issues. Further more your take is rather sexist, it essentially states that women should be treated with traditional privlidges when you want, and men should be forced to have traditional responsibilities when you dont. Equality does not work in that capacity, either you except responsibility and privlidge, or revoke your privlidges to avoid responsibility. You don't get to choose the advantages of both and the disadvantages of none.

[Jxpxtxr]

Well, you might find this interesting
newsimg.bbc.co.uk/.../_42821623_work_hours_416.gif
www.dailymail.co.uk/.../...k-longer-hours-men.html
Please think again before calling me a 'liar' because all the so called 'evidence' you present here with unauthorized videos you took from youtube can be disproved perfectly with a lot of articles in reliable newspapers. The problem about the type of men like you is, you only see how oh-so-bad the change is for men nowadays but you never even bothered to look at how women were and are still treated. It seems like an impossible task to be objective here, and maybe I'm not either but I certainly managed to look at this issue better than you.

[hellionthesage]

Well, my videos where from doctors (the man worked on the board of the National Organization for Women, or NOW) and professors. according to your links women work 34 hours a week, despite standard being 40 hours, and "Over the same five-year period, men's average work hours fell from 45.5 hours per week to 44.8 hours, although among the hardestworking males the number putting in more than 49 hours a week has passed the three million mark." which means that men are working more hours then women even though women have increased work hours by 4 hours in the past five years. Women are also more likely to be found in relatively poorly-paid caringprofessions than men, pushing down their overall average wages."
The article itself states what I and my links have said. Also it would be more legitament if it didn't come from the "feMail" section, a section dedicated exclusively to women, where no male equivalent exists.

[hellionthesage]

I never called you a liar, in fact if you do a word search (cntrl+f) you will find the first use of the word on this page is comes from you, claiming that I called you a liar. as for your ad hominem attack (attacking me/my character in order to discredit my argument) "The problem about the type of men like you is, you only see how oh-so-bad the change is for men nowadays but you never even bothered to look at how women were and are still treated." I gave you evidence, from researchers and doctors, you gave me links that also said the exact same thing I was saying. That is ignoring the fact that you attempted to get them from a bias sorce (feMail section of the dailymail, also could be viewed as gender discrimination since they have no male equivalent) So I fail to see how you are better read (you didn't even read your own sources) then I am on the subject. Here are more links if you don't like the others: qz.com/.../
www.statcrunch.com/.../viewreport.php

[hellionthesage]

The fair pay act has existed since the 60s yet there has not been a single case where a woman whent to court over unfair pay. Then again, 30% increase in profits if women replaced men in the work force, which as we know, has not happened. Your argument has no evidence to back it, even your evidence refutes the statment as I have shown. You claiming that I am bias and your statment "I certainly managed to look at this issue better than you." does not change the facts. Please refrain from attacking a person if you cannot attack the argument, it just further proves the other persons point.

[Jxpxtxr]

I read my own sources I just didn't really bother with yours since judging from the rest of your comment all you were talking about was men and how men suffer in today's society which, quite frankly, made you seem quite ignorant. Furthermore I would like to point out that you were indeed the first one who called me a liar using the phrase "by perpetuating lies and.." regardless of the fact that no matter how much seeming evidence you find for your point I will always be able to find the exact evidence for my point so claiming that I'm a liar which is just disrespectful and quite unintelligent since you obviously also failed to understand that gende equality is a GLOBAL issue. My question therefore is: why do you feel so terribly offended and make it all about yourself?

[hellionthesage]

You where making false claims that where lies, not that you where lying only that the statments themselves where shown to be false and frequently told by people who realized they where false. So I did not call you a liar. You are claiming that women suffer more then men, I presented evidence that it was not the case, so in that respect you attempted to make it all about women wiht only the briefest mention of male suffering in the form of divorce. You did not read your sources I just gave you the quotes from them that stated what I and my sources have said. They make less money because they work less hours, because they take time off for family, because they ask for raises less frequently then men etc. Ignoring this will not change the facts. You are now ignoring the fact that you are claiming that men are oppressing women by proxy when all evidence shows otherwise. Why do you think only women suffer? That men have it good? It seems to be what your suggesting.

[hellionthesage]

Do not expect me to simply believe you and except what your presenting, especially if you yourself are unwilling to invest the time into reading my reasons why I do not believe you. The fact is women are not suffering period. male unemployment, as my links show is higher then womens, men work more then women, 80% of suicides are male, 80% of alimony/childsupport is paid by men to women, 75% of the homeless are men, nearly 80% of American spending is by women and 65-70% of global spending is by women. Men comprise 98% of combat fatalities (which according to your article is perfectly exceptable because there men and its there gender roles job) 97% of all work place accidents and deaths (again you in your take stated it is exceptable since where stronger and should be expected to work those kinds of jobs while women work the much safer ones) then you argue that women are being mistreated (again, I showed otherwise) because of gender gap. Its all about women according to your argument.

[Jxpxtxr]

Where exactly did I "claim that women suffer more than men"? Wasn't that actually you with the vice versa example?
I'm sorry but until you don't manage to actually read my take and what I say properly, please don't even attempt to reply with another weak comment on how I'm spreading so called lies, for which I actually have more than sufficient evidence, too. I know weird right? I thought lies couldn't be backed up with proof, too!! Or are there in the end really two sides of the medal? Think about that, instead of only victimising yourself please :)

[Mesonfielde]

""women and men will never be equal - simply because they can’t be. I’m referring to emotions, biology and physicality.""

""naturally going to be more suitable for men (like working in construction, being a soldier, being a firefighter, etc.) as well as there are jobs that are mostly concerned with social (caring) aspects which women tend to engage with more (such as working in kindergartens, nursing homes or hospitals).""

Sure, and that's why male kindergarteners who want to be kindergarteners despite being male actually feel like people will think they are "weird" for wanting to be kindergarteners: lookatmyhappyrainbow.blogspot.hu/.../...chers.html

Women not being suitable for construction working?
I'm pretty sure she could raise metal bars way better than I could, that's certain.
www.personalpowertraining.net/...ybuilding%202.jpg
That, and sometimes you just need to operate a crane. I doubt you need much physical strength to operate a crane. I think you just need to learn how to operate a crane.

While you claim that "yeah, certain elements of gender equality would be great", the rest of your views are extremely dangerous. True gender equality would allow anyone to pursue anything regardless of their sex (as long as they are suitable for the job). But saying someone is biologically incapable of being a soldier because they're female is a bit harsh. They might not be the best for the field due to menstruation, that doesn't mean they can't handle staring at a radar, or do tactical planning, you know?

Biological essentialism, which is your neuroscientific claim of "look, we ARE different, so EVERYTHING ELSE I say about being different is true" is VERY dangerous. Just look at the 25-29 anonymous response. That IS the implication of your take. That it is totally reasonable that sexism exists - because we are different, and women were naturally designed to be submissive towards and inferior to men. For example.

People who fight for gender equality don't take this into account because this is the very first step towards justifying sexism that people experience today.

[Jxpxtxr]

I don't think you have actually got the point of my take :( - I was talking about equality for opportunity - see last paragraph - and of course I have been generalising when I said that men are physically stronger hence its easier for them to do physical work and women have more of a caring side but these are actually facts. Men do have more muscle tissue so they do have the potential to be physically stronger than women - of course women who work out day and night can be stronger than out of shape men but a women who works out a lot will never be physically as strong as a men who works out just the same. that's why the numbers of men and women working on construction or the military aren't equal. Of course they should have equal opportunities to do any job tho. Hope you see my point now.

[Ozanne]

When I was 19 I got in to college to take on a career in broadcasting. Today, working in broadcasting is pretty even keel with the sexes, but it still wasn't in 1993, not for what I wanted to do. I wanted to work as a writer and producer, and was flat out told by male instructors that "men worked those jobs". Not even *most*, just flat out men. How manly is it to use one's ears to hear voices and music together and mix sounds and upload them to a software program? Even in training, I was still using reel-to-reel TAPE. It didn't take a man's hands to do that.

Women were expected to be announcers or write copy, that was it. In my first job I was discriminated with low pay for the first four years of my career. I did the same job, I had a good employee record, if anything better than some of the other men. I didn't take sick days, I didn't take pregnancy leave, I didn't work parttime. I was running with the guys just as fast as they were, if not faster. What was the problem? Should I have been a nurse instead? LOL Maybe, yes, looking back on it. But I think my bedside manner would have been awful. :)

Some gender-specific jobs were NOT gender specific at all - we can look back and see that now. But I know that's not what your Take is about, it's about more of the physical and emotional capabilities that we seem to be better at. But in my case, it devastated my career because I could never get what was fair and was told outright that I was in a boy's club and to get used to it. I left it behind and so did a lot of terrific women in the field that I know.

It's almost like playing poker. It doesn't take strength or a penis to play poker. You need eyes, you need fingers, you need to be able to count, and you need to know the ranks of the hands, all the while reading your opponents. Yet still, while I play poker, I get snickered at by men. Not sure why. (Once I quietly beat someone with quad twos while they had a full house as they laughed at me while I bet saying to me, "I'll just keep betting sweetheart because I want to see what you think you have." I showed my hand after we called and I swear he peed his pants. Made a lot of money just by being quiet about it and just having a game of cards.

Some things are just not gender specific, as I'm getting at, and yet to this day, some things just still *are* considered being part of a boy's club even though there is no extension of their penis in work or play with some things. :)

[Jxpxtxr]

Thank you for your input :) I agree, your experiences would be an example as to where we should still have more equality and I feel that although there are jobs where men or women are more likely to have it easier, as in due to their physical or emotional differences, should still provide the same opportunities and equal pay for either gender if people provide the same quality of work.

[abundantlyrich]

I think people who say there are no wage gaps and how women can be anything like man can do needs to think about the politics and culture that is present in companies which has blatant sexism and jealousy rearing its ugly head

[oracle12c]

@abundantlyrich
What politics are you taking about specifically?

What do you mean by blatant sexism, can you be more specific?

[Anonymous]

Im for gender equality, I'm not for entitlement. I feel we re mostly equal where we re st if not beyond (except for a few things). But a lot of what the gender equality is nowadays is female entitlement and feminism to put down men and advance women over men. That's not fair either. I feel men are kindve the dumb "pack mules" of society and women are the brains. But dumb and smart people exist in both genders. But as a man I'm automatically seen as a "pig" by some women and that's not fair. Us men have our struggles too just as much as women if not more. In relationships, we are also expected to pay for everything I'm some cases and do all the work of the relationship when women are just along for the ride in dating and relationships. Somehow we revert back to traditional gender roles here.

I do believe that women should get equally get jobs and equal pay. Pretty sure it's mostly the case now. Somebody mentioned maturnity leave. Well, that could be the same as coming down with an illness or having to have a operation. Also, physically demanding jobs. We re currently trying to put women in active combat jobs in the military and lowering the physical standards to allow them to be soldiers. The original standard didint discriminate, it's just physically only a few women could meet the standard. So, they're trying to lower it for women only. This is dangerous because if someone bigger than them is wounded and they need man power to move that person out of the line of fire, they're not going to be able to. If a woman can meet the normal physical standards, good for them. But , we shouldn't be lowering those standards to be "politically correct" basically cause of the physical demands of the job. Women are genetically not as strong as men... it's not societies fault or men's fault.

Also, what about the segregation of bathrooms? They are segregated by gender. That's not equal but is it fair? We had racially segregated bathrooms back in the 50's and 60's under "seperate but equal" doctrine.

[Jxpxtxr]

I just gave a few examples for each of those things and like you said, the standard requirements for jobs that require a certain strength like in the military should not be lowered for women - and to the separate bathrooms, that can actually be explained with the physical/biological differences of the genders - that's why I said some things should be equal but some things shouldn't and can't be. And I agree that both genders struggle with the current societal expectations, that's why we should find equality especially in this aspect.

[Opinion Owner]

Yeah I totally agree. The bathroom thing I just brought up as an example, something we might overlook but at the sametime is it a big deal? No. Does it have its reasons? Yes. I really liked your My Take here and your desire for fair and balanced. You understand a lot of things here. Your not the usual feminist that would get on here and say women have it 100x harder than men and are entitled to society giving them much more and basically that all men are "pigs". These people I feel are people will an agenda that way overstate what is going on to gain advancement and entitlement over others in society. And what many don't realize is that not all men are bad and men face a lot of struggle and responsibility themselves from personal relationships to jobs and place in society.

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately feminists have gone insane and now confuse believing in equal opportunity, with believing men and women are exactly the same. Such as the person that used one exceptionally strong female to prove women are just as strong as men. Also it isn't wrong to generalize. It is wrong to make unfair generalizations. Saying men are stronger than women is a true and fair generalization. Saying women are too weak to be given a chance is an unfair generalization.

I worked in a place where we have had several women accuse my boss of being sexist for not automatically putting women in certain positions, but every time he does, the woman gives up after less than an hour and would quit. The average guy can do the job. VERY few women can do it. He will give them a shot if they want, but chances are they won't be able to do it so he won't automatically just put women there. Instead he would assign the women to the positions where physical strength was not as big of a part of the job, unless the woman asked to be put in the harder spot.

Most women today just don't understand just how different the levels in strength are between the average men and average women really are. If they did they would understand why a long time ago humans had gender roles, and would have to accept that gender roles were created out of necessity during harder times before technology freed us from needing to rely on a man's strength. Instead feminists are taught that men were just being evil and enslaved women. No decent man alive would send his pregnant wife to go plow the fields while he cooked dinner. Thus gender roles was born. Back then women gained a lot from gender roles. Gender roles weren't a one sided deal.

[Jxpxtxr]

I agree on your point that women and men can't be equal when it comes to biology and physique - however they should still be given the equal opportunities to carry certain jobs out. And gender roles are indeed absolutely unnecessary nowadays :)

[Opinion Owner]

Depends on what you mean by equal opportunities to carry certain jobs out. Not being automatically assigned to a job they most likely can't handle makes sense. Otherwise they end up quitting and the employer doesn't want to lose good workers if they could have just assigned them to a different spot where they would have done well. If you mean being allowed to try out for the more physically demanding job if they really want to, then yes I agree.

[Opinion Owner]

If you just look at the female comments you have gotten so far, and how they clearly want to ignore the reality of our differences, then you will start to understand how insane feminism has gotten. It is stupid to think a 98 pound woman is capable of doing the same things a 160 pound man can do. No matter what her size, too many women think they can do anything men can do. This is the type of lunacy that is being taught to young girls, and that is why takes like this will be seen as sexist, instead of realistic. It is a good take, but it goes against the propaganda currently accepted as truth. Mainstream feminism is no longer about equal opportunity as it should be. Today mainstream feminism is more often about proving that men and women are the same.

[Jxpxtxr]

I agree, as an actual feminist (reflecting the initial idea of the movement) I find it nothing but say how the connotation of the word has grown into something so ugly - I'm sick of the real sexist people still labeling and judging women for their choices to be independent but I'm just as sick of those women masking their crazy ideas behind the word "feminism" while it's clearly not, but the good thing about those two extremes is; at least we know who not to associate with then.

[Watermelonoma]

hmm interesting Take. I'm not sure if i fully agree with the title of it though, as i don't think it really fits the message you're going for. For instance, you stated that men tend to be more fit for jobs that require physical strength like the armed forces, as an example of where the genders can't really be equal. But we do have female soldiers already who are held to the same screening standards that men are, and are able to pass them, plus perform just as well as the men, else they wouldn't be allowed to serve. So i would say that gender equality in the military is still appropriate when it comes to providing equal opportunity to both men and women who are already there, as well as making sure women in the military aren't treated any better or worse than the men are. I'm not an individual who believes that countries like the USA are an example of a rape culture, however I do believe that a rape subculture exists within the U. S. military where women are hugely disadvantaged. I'm also kinda iffy on the whole wage gap thing, because I've found that feminists too often get their stats wrong on that issue. Overall though, I appreciate your attempt here to not be be man-hating or overly biased. I hope to see more from you

[Jxpxtxr]

I agree that yes, women work in said jobs as in the military, just like some men work in nursing homes, too, for instance - it was just an example though of a job where the vast majority of the employees are of the same gender, simply because they're reconditionally better suitable to work in this field. Thank you for your input :)

[Watermelonoma]

Yeah, fair enough. Obviously, there shouldn't be affirmative action quotas for institutions like the military because men are naturally better conditioned for that kind of work, at least in my view. But at the same time, i don't have any problem with a woman serving in the armed forces if she's able to pass the same baseline requirements that the military asks for in order to be a soldier. So gender equality in that sense would simply mean giving women equal opportunity with men to at least try out. Anyways, im glad you decided to write something on this, finally!

[Jxpxtxr]

I agree :)
It was more thought of as an example for the physical differences actually but I guess you could make it one for equality regarding tolerance and opportunities for choices in working life, too!

[LightsOff]

I think abortion is one thing that will never be equal either. A lot of men think that when they get a woman pregnant, they have the right to determine what happens to her body because it is also their child. They think their opinion holds an equal amount of weight as the woman's due to this, and should therefore have the right to, for instance, force a woman through a pregnancy because they want to keep the child.

I agree that the man has a say up to a point. He has the right to voice his opinions and concerns, since it's his baby too. Hopefully he and his partner can come to a decision that works for them. However, that's ideal. Sometimes the woman simply wants to abort, and I think she should have the rights to regardless of what the man thinks. It's her body, her body that's going to go through all those changes and possible emotional trauma, for something she doesn't even want. Her opinion should overrule her partner's. Nobody should be forced to go through a pregnancy against their will. It's a basic human right to have bodily autonomy, no man has the right to decide what happens or doesn't happen with a woman's body.

I'm sure at some point some pro-life person will be all like "well what about the body of the child! Doesn't s/he have the right to bodily autonomy?"
In this case, nope. I think a living, breathing, thinking, feeling person who is already able to provide for herself is worth more than a tiny, unwanted fetus who isn't able to think or feel anything yet, and is completely dependent on the inside of that woman's body. As harsh as that sounds.

[Transigence]

Oh, baloney. Men know that women have the only say when it comes to gestation and birth/abortion. What we have a problem with is our ability to make decisions regarding our wallets and how we spend our lives afterward.

Women, and especially feminists (with the exception of Karen DeCrow), have this nasty habit of attaching consent to parenthood to the decision to have sex, but only for men. Had sex? You have to pay, at threat of force. But if you're a woman... Had sex? Well you can get an abortion. Or you can legally abandon your child at any time for any or no reason, for something like up to 16 years after birth. We just don't hold women responsible for the choices THEY MAKE ALONE (Only you can choose to have a baby).

So is the decision to have sex an implicit consent to enter into parenthood? For men only?

[LightsOff]

@Transigence I disagree with men having to pay if they don't want to be parents.

[oracle12c]

@LightsOff

Great then you are clearly not a feminist, since you believe in actually equality including consent parenthood for both genders.

[LightsOff]

@oracle12c I am a feminist and maybe if you opened your eyes a little you would realize that there are plenty who think like me. But your bias is what's keeping you from realizing it, it's so much easier for you to just paint all feminists with the same brush instead of realizing that there are different types of feminists with slightly different views. Extremists and fake feminists don't and shouldn't represent the group as a whole.

[oracle12c]

@LightsOff
"Extremists and fake feminists don't and shouldn't represent the group as a whole." .. nope, but it does nonetheless. You are talking about feminism as it is defines in the dictionary, I am talking about feminism as it is practised politically in 2015 in the UK, USA, continental EU, Australia and Canada.

They may all be extremists and fake, but the non extremists are silent, so the only voices heard are the extremists and 'fake feminists' but they do call themselves feminists, hence they are feminists.
But I grant you that in principal, feminism is the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities... the politically actives however, are proposing discriminatory laws all the time.

So what is the true definition, the theoretically one or the one practised in the political reality in our time?

[LightsOff]

@oracle12c the non-extremists are not at all silent. You just don't pay attention to them because of your bias and because you'd rather pay attention to the shitstorm that extremists are making. Much like thinking all muslims are like ISIS when in fact there are plenty of peaceful muslims.

[oracle12c]

@LightsOff
The non-extremists are not all silent, but they have no political voice. Whenever anyone calming to be feminist are making proposals for legislation, it's almost always discriminatory in nature.

I know most are "feminists" by the definition, hell even I am, but I don't associate that kind of theoretically feminism with the books written by those claimed feminists, nor the political measures suggested by feminist organisations, almost always in blatant violation of the fundamental principals of 'true feminism'.

Hence I associate the word feminist with those claim it and holding political influences, since the rest is without any political influence.

I don't care about 900 million Muslims who does nothing wrong, I care about those organisations that try to kill in the name of Islam and they are referred to as islam-ists (just like femin-ists).

So what is the true definition, the political reality or theoretically definition, and how do you suggests we make the distinction?

[LightsOff]

@oracle12c the true definition is the one still used in dictionaries.

[oracle12c]

@LightsOff

Then you have a challenge ahead of you, the political reality is far more dominant then a textbook definition.

If I told you, I can prove that at least 90% of all Christians are not truly Christians by the definition in the Bible, would that change you mind about who is or isn't a Christian - I think not?
In the same why is it with feminism, people see feminism as those who climes to be feminists and not for what is really should be. That is how the human mind works and to change that is rather hopeless I would think.

[LightsOff]

@oracle12c you can't really compare Christianity with feminism though since Christianity has been around for nearly a couple thousand years whereas feminism is a fairly recent thing. It's not surprising that the definition of Christianity is more fluid nowadays due to what modern societies look like. However the same can't really be said about feminism, I would say there's a pretty clear difference between extremists and those who follow the dictionary definition.

I'm a bit curious though, what discriminatory legislations are you talking about?

[oracle12c]

@LightsOff

Sorry if I was unclear, I didn't mean to compare Christianity with feminism, it was supposed to be a illustration of how we disregard the textbook definitions of well almost any aspect of political and religious groups and call then whatever they claim to be, regardless of there actions. For instance North Korea and China doesn't correspond to the definition of communism at all, and still we call them communist countries.

Discriminatory legislations is a reference to discriminatory legislations inspired by feminist lobbyist organisations. Like 40% woman on private company boards, or other kinds of affirmative actions. True feminism is not just about what to achieve, but also about how to achieve it. To fight discrimination with the introduction of more discrimination is not in consistency with the definition of feminism. Affirmative action is by definition discrimination, "positive discrimination" of women is still negative discrimination of men.

[Ladyegg67]

I was born in 1967. I have seen and experienced true sexist attitudes. I knew 2 women who hid their pregnancy so they won't lose their job. No joke we had a neighbor who gave birth Saturday went back to work Monday morning. a lot has changed in the last 40yrs. As for certain aspects I'm stronger than a lot of guys not because I'm giant it's because I have to train men in their 20s who are so out of shape. I can move 180lb corpse by myself, it took 2 men to move the same body. If a man is in decent shape then yeah he's going to stronger than me. Hell, Audy Murphy is the most decorated war hero in the US and was 5ft 7in tall. And 114lbs. He was turn down by every branch of the military twice because he was built like a woman. He's as badass as you get. I work with men mostly and never have I been told I can't do this or that. Mainly because I do my work and do it well. I own my business and women miss more work, kids get sick, can't find a babysitter etc... I belive if the wage gap is real it's because employers can't promote someone who is not a dependable employee. I own a funeral home and I need strong dependable workers. Like I said before most people men and women are completely out of shape not just fat but lazy. This generation of "feminist "have never lived in the era of true gender bias. I caught the tail end of it in the 1970s. I always like a challenge so I always gravitated to male oriented jobs. But I think that's mostly because I have 10 brothers 3 sisters and dad is a drill Sargent. I was raised tougher than most boys or girls. The last time I was told I couldn't do something because I was a girl was 1977. That's the because things have changed now. I remember when things were truly bias. Now women are just grabbing at any thing to scream sexism.

[Jxpxtxr]

I agree that there are women physically stronger than men but it is a fact that men have more muscle tissue hence, it would be easier for them to build muscle ergo they IN GENERAL are stronger than women (and have the potential). I should have mentioned that I have been relying on the 'most horrible' thing: generalization when writing this take more probably. And I agree that sexism has become more rare nowadays but it still exists - just not in the levels it used to and equality (as well as women's rights!) are still a big, big problem - think globally please.

[Ladyegg67]

Sorry, I had to go to Sweden for a wedding. I travel quite a bit and Sweden is a very matriarchal society more than most just an observation. When in Dubi I can't hold my husbands hand in public even as a tourist. So guess what I only go for business now. I am not being oppressed were I live now and I don't have time to fight other woman's battles. Thinking global sure I'll do that next time I'm flying across the ocean to my next country of interest. When you get 112 countries under your belt then I will take you seriously. I wasn't even going to answer but I needed something to do while I take my morning shit.

[Anonymous]

I agree. Keep women off construction sites. They're a hazard to themselves as well as others.

I also think women shouldn't be doctors because their emotions get the better of them when tough decisions need to be made.
For similar reasons, they shouldn't be politicians either. They're simply too irrational to make good economical as well as social decisions.

Basically any leadership roles unless it's the leadership of a women's group should be filled by men because women aren't natural leaders. They're natural servers. Only men are true leaders.

There should be more male kindergarten teachers also. It wasn't always this way but now women are almost exclusively in these roles and many boys are growing up to be pussy whipped sissies as a result.
The female kindergarten teachers should be overseen by a man at the very least.

I totally agree with this take. The two genders are just meant for different things.
Men are the builders and authority on society whereas women are the servers and nurturers of it.

Completely agree with this take.

[Mesonfielde]

I actually don't know if you're serious or not, but these are the implications of this take, yes.

[Jxpxtxr]

Then I don't think you got my point AT ALL :)

[Mesonfielde]

@Jxpxtxr actually, this is the point of your take, even if you don't see it. That women should get the same wages, but should be kept away from jobs that have to do with anything that revolves around logic or physical strength - because women are inherently "more emotional and less strong". :(

[Opinion Owner]

Yeah what mesonfielde said is pretty much what I thought this take was about

[SweetAndSassy14]

Anonymous are you a fucking idiot or a troll?

[SweetAndSassy14]

Ohhhhh... yep you were trolling

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Women do get the same pay for the same job, they don't have the same job because they don't choose the same jobs. I maintain that there is no gender pay gap.

Yes on the father thing.

IT IS socially acceptable for women to ask men out. It's almost entirely women that have this crazy notion that they look "deserate." If you drop this attitude I guarantee you'll stop seeing it in the world anywhere near as much.

I don't think men are always expected to pay for everything but the problem is that many women say "you don't have to pay BUT I like it." Which it means we do in fact HAVE TO pay because we're only hurting our chance if we don't. So basically yes, we should fix this.

The vast majority of people don't expect women to stay home and do housework anymore, so can we stop talking about it like it's a real thing?

I agree with all the brain stuff. I'm trying not to sound like too much of an ass here but many people can't really understand things outside of the box of their own perception. I believe we're naturally different but that those differences don't really need to be considered , like if women don't want to go into STEM fields then ok let's not force them but not give them special treatment in STEM either.

[Azara]

It did not look as if this was going to be sbiit feminism. It looked like it was going to be exactly what it turne out to be. Dictating what peoeple can and can not do despite supposed equal legal opportunity. which is basically pointkess if you're going to qualify everything with biological determinism.

People develop strength by their activities not by their birth. You gain what you do and lose want you don't. There is no proof that aoerson who take scare of children is going to be less nurturing than a person born a woman who has neve been around or interested in kids. Just as a guy who has no Interest in fighting fire has no aptitude for it and as no physical disposition despite him being born with a penis, is going to be imadeiate compared to a woman who has passion and training.

Scientifically none of what you soda is preen. There are recycled themes in books that sell so are written again and again bc it's what people like to hear. Bc it's familiar and fills in the blanks based on cultural prejudice. For every test that " proves" something there's another test to disprove it. You'd have to literally do years of deeply profound empirical work to be able to begin to make soeme kind of claim. Even then in a year or two there will be evidence to the contrary. Nothing is as consistent and fluid as scientific findings.

Anyhow it's not " scientific" to begin with a prejudice. You begin with a question. Starting with an answer obstructs the potential to find the right question.

Like if this post was awes toon, want would the question be. What problem are you trying to solve?

[notcreativethough]

Trained Female Firefighter vs Untrained Male: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb_WYGtZ7K4

Biological inclinations are obviously not the only significant factor, but pretending they don't have a tremendous impact is intellectually dishonest.

'Men have 80% greater arm muscle mass and 50% more lower-body muscle mass. Men have about 90% greater upper-body strength and about 65% greater lower-body strength: the average man is stronger than 99.9% of women. In terms of anaerobic power, men have over 45% higher vertical leap and over 25% faster sprint times' - www.sciencevsfeminism.com/.../

There's more info in the link and the studies are all linked.

[GamerArtNerd]

In your examples of some of the jobs that women can't do, I noticed you used "being a soldier." I'm a soldier and I can tell you right now that you are wrong. Women make up 20% of the US Army and on top of that they get more freedom than us, lower standards, and they even get paid more. If a woman has a child, she's allowed to legally separate from the Army without breaking her contract, a man can not. Every year we get a "clothing allowance" for new uniforms, boots etc, women get paid more than we do just because of a skirt in their dress uniform. (most women never evne wear the skirt and most people never have to replace their dress uniforms in their entire Army career) Men have to shave daily and cut their hair weekly yet we don't get paid extra for cream, razors, and hair cuts. Those are just a few examples so even though men are definitely "physically stronger" women still have it better even in the Army.

[Jxpxtxr]

That wasn't my point - I was talking about equal opportunity for all, not either gender having it better.. I think women should have the same opportunity to join the army but they should do just the same as men do then.

[GamerArtNerd]

No I get you trust me. I agree with 99% of your post. I'm just saying that in that segment where you were specifying the biological differences that effect jobs that we can and can't do, I was simply saying that soldier didn't belong in that category because women have it better than men even in that area.

[oracle12c]

@GamerArtNerd

She didn't actually say that, nevertheless all you are proving is we need more gender equality and how far feminism have driven it too far in women favour - at least in the US army. There is a long way to true gender equality.

[RinaJMB]

With that post you just stated that genders have their differences (well no shit) but that doesn't mean there is not equality. As you said, just like a man is more capable to take over a constitutional job, then a woman -who is more compassionate because of her mother instinct- is suitable for a caretaking position. Though that comes mainly from body and character, not from each person's gender. For example, somebody can have a successful career as a cook because he/she is talented on it. If someone doesn't have that on his/her DNA and didn't let it get developed, then this person doesn't have the capability of being successful in that field. Even though your opinion is valid and I agree with you on most part, there are still some stereotypes and generalizations. Not all women are caring and mother material and also not all men are strong and muscular. :) good point though, I agree.

[jjmarvin]

i agree. some presuppositions but mostly it was very good.

[Jxpxtxr]

Yeah, I think I might have been generalizing too much without mentioning it so unfortunately many people just read what they wanted to read (see other comments), but I agree that a lot of jobs are completely independent from gender and even those jobs who are more popular for either gender (like the ones I mentioned) should give the same opportunity to work in that field for both, women and men since they both can fulfill all requirements to work in any job really, depending on their individual strengths :)

[Transigence]

Speaking in generalities, or about entire demographics, with regards to specific tasks, is useless.

[KAZ-2Y5]

I present you why i think women are just as tough as men
this Hawaiian surfer:
Hawaiian surfer Ha’a Keaulana runs across the ocean floor with a 50 pound boulder, as training to survive the massive surf waves
https://i.imgur.com/mlJnuBz.jpg
then their is the whole labor thing:
nine months of caring a tiny human then 12 hours give or take of the tiny human trying to get out of her body through her vagina. Labor has been categorized as 2nd to worst pain imaginable after being burned alive tell me again why women are weak?

[CorruptedDocument]

Because that one woman is now the entire lot of you. That's like using one weak male and saying as a whole, men are weak.

The majority does win when it comes to generalization.

[KAZ-2Y5]

I never said men were weak and why does your username look familiar?

[CorruptedDocument]

And now you're going to throw whatever insults come to mind because my non-PC opinion offends you.

[KAZ-2Y5]

Only if its fitting for you

[Jxpxtxr]

First of all labour pain is not at all related to physical strength but more to pain endurance - I agree, that woman is a good example that there are women who are equally strong but it's a fact that men in GENERAL have more muscle tissues while women in general have more fat tissue hence men in GENERAL have it much easier to build muscle ergo they are usually stronger.

[Jxpxtxr]

And I know I shouldn't generalise etc. but physical strength IS indeed a major difference between the genders.

[Transigence]

There was some research done, I don't know where (you'll have to hunt yourself, or feel free to disregard), that men's and women's tolerance to pain is the same.

There are things that cause more pain than childbirth. In the case of this research, it was toothache.

[KAZ-2Y5]

More painful than a tiny human coming out of a body through a woman's vagina? Hmm. Weird

[TheBootyChest]

I agree with some of the things you say. And I respect it all.

My view in the dating aspect is that I would like a lady to tell me she likes me, but part of me is still a traditional romantic at heart and wants to at least as her out on the first date and pay for the meal. Afterwards I would be open to going back and forth on who asks and who pays.

In regards to physicality aspect, I still believe that some women can do manual labor work. MAYBE she can't carry a 2x4 beam on one shoulder (maybe she can) but I still think she can help a team lift something and help build things. I also believe that she can carry a heavy box from her office to her car across the lot. But I want to carry it for her so she can do something that she is better at or so she can walk more elegantly as she walks into a room.

Thank you for all the work and time that went into your myTake and for allowing me to share my opinion.

[Jxpxtxr]

I admit that I might have been generalizing a little too much - of course there should still be equality in the aspect of giving everyone the same opportunities so if a woman wants to do construction work she should be given the same opportunity to do so as men are, but then again that's rather social than physical - I was just referring to the fact that men have more muscle tissue than women, while women have more fat tissue hence it is easier for men to build muscle ergo to be stronger and do physically challenging work. Of course there are many women who work out a lot hence are stronger than many men that don't exercise their muscle at all, still men are (and have the potential to be) generally stronger than women.
And thank you for your input :)

[Logic_Hammer_Bear]

Women are weaker than man was a myth perpetuated by misogynist men to keep women "in their place", it's sickening that people still believe it. A man and woman of the same size, all other things being equal, will be equally strong.

I know some of you are going to say things about guys have more muscle mass. True, but it might as well be fat if he doesn't develop it, and muscle mass is only one factor of strength. That said, women do have twice as many pain receptors. A man gets hurt and feels pain N, a woman gets hurt in the same way and experiences pain 2N.

[NeedleInTheHay]

An average man is stronger than an average woman because an average man is larger and more robust than an average woman. Men also have more muscle tissue while women have more fat tissue. Women have 10 times less testosterone than men, meaning it's harder for them to develop muscles. Of course there are weak men and strong women, but in general, "men are stronger than women" is true.

[Logic_Hammer_Bear]

As I already mentioned, more muscle tissue doesn't mean a damn thing if it isn't developed. But continue to feed the myth if you want to continue disgracing your gender.

[Jxpxtxr]

I think what she was saying that is is actually easier for men to build muscle as opposed to women which is indeed a fact & not a "myth" as you like to call it :)

[AdenAK]

If two people a boy and girl. Where given the same food, exercised the same. Did everything the same that would impact strength. The boys is still far more likely to be sstronger. Simply because of the hormone androgen and testosterone. There is scientific evidence to support this. It's not ignorant but it's accepted because it's for the most part true. There's nothing misogynistic about this. There's a reason people say you shouldn't hurt girls.

[thatkaruguy]

If men and women were equal in strength then they would not be getting left in the dust in the Olympics

[In-sight-ful]

You completely contradict yourself here. Yes I am all for gender equality. I am going to school to be a paramedic firefighter for gods sake. Walk into a fire house and tell me how many women you see. Not many. But we CAN do it. I'm also not a radical feminist, I love when men hold the door for me, or say ladies first, or offer to carry my heavy bags, I'm not going to play the damsel in distress but I will accept the help. Gender equality is what we make of it. I want to be a paramedic where I will be working with men the majority of the time and there I will be an equal. We will have the same amount of training and will have passed the same tests to get where we're at, I'd say we're pretty equal.

[Riggers]

She said ''women tend to engage with more (such as working in kindergartens, nursing homes or hospitals).''.

You said you want to be a 'Paramedic Firefighter', (Which is a job role that dosen't exactly exist? You cannot be a Paramedic AND a frontline Firefighter). You then said later on in your post that you just wanted to be a paramedic and mentioned nothing about firefighter.

The person who wrote this take said women are more likely to go into healthcare, And guess what, As a paradmedic, That means you are going into healthcare!. There is no need to start an argument where one is not needed my friend.

[Transigence]

She's thinking strictly in terms of demographics. She isn't thinking about individuals.

[In-sight-ful]

@Riggers I was sharing an opinion not trying to start an argument. And most firefighters are paramedic firefighters most people do both. Sometimes you go in and you're riding on the squad for the day and other days your on the engine. Sorry I forgot firefighter the second time. But please dont attack me when I was sharing an opinion.

[Nuqood]

You are not doing the same thing that men have to do in your training. Sorry, but you aren't. The bar is set lower for women in the physical test; You are not equal to men.

[In-sight-ful]

@Nuqood everyone has to pass the same tests. I'm sure I'm better at what I do than a lot of men. Physically no I'm not the same as a man but I still have to pass the same skill requirements and still have to pass a written test based on knowledge. Everyone has to pass the same tests.

[Nuqood]

You have to pass the girl version. That is not the same test.

[In-sight-ful]

@Nuqood it is the same test. What makes you qualified to say otherwise? I am an EMT and I took the exact same tests as everyone else to get there

[Nuqood]

You did the girl version. That isn't the same test.

Explain how you doing a 100lbs bench press for 10 reps is the same thing as me doing 225lbs for 25 reps. Explain how me carrying 100lbs up a ladder is the same as you carrying 50 up half a ladder. Explain how you did the same thing that men did physically; Explain how you're equal.

[In-sight-ful]

@Nuqood that may be the fire test which I haven't done yet. But it also differs from state to state and women still need to be able to do the same thing as men. Were doing the same job. Same skill level required.

[Nuqood]

Hah, no. You will never be as strong as men and will never be doing the same job that men are doing. Sorry, but you're not a 'firefighter', you're a GIRL firefighter. The bar was set much lower for more women to actually pass the physical test, so don't be too proud of female firefighters. It's like when children get participation awards to make everyone feel special. You doing 10 pushups in an hour and running a mile in 10 hours isn't the same thing (or makes you as valuable) as the man who does 120 in 2 minutes and runs 10 miles in 1 hour.

[In-sight-ful]

@Nuqood no physically women aren't equal to men. I know that. I understand that. But we are all still doing the same job.

[takumii]

Good take.

About the equal pay thing, I read in another take that men and women do get paid equally. All this charade is because of a misleading statistic. Women usually opt for low paying jobs. And if women were being paid less for the same amount of work, then that institution would fire all men and hire all women to increase profits as they get work done in lesser pay.

Women and men are DIFFERENT. God made us different. So, I want to ask all those religious people, isn't it against God's will if we try to equalize them.

Feminism has been manipulated and stretched to the point it has become bullshit. They want you to call God a person, and not a 'he' They want you to call superman a superperson.. batman a batperson. which i believe is going way overboard.

[Jxpxtxr]

I think to the equal pay people are always gonna argue whether it's there or not. We definitely do not have it where I live and since I was talking on a global scale I think it is still something we have to work on a lot. In the Middle East many women aren't even allowed to work at all yet! They are literally still kept as slaves still. That is why I think we still need feminism but I agree that the motifs of third wave feminism especially in the U. S. have become pretty ugly and ridiculous.
Thanks for your input )

[Byakuyarko]

I do believe that there should be equal pay for equal work. But the sad fact is that women need maternity leave. It's a biological non negotiable need. It is cruel and exploitative to expect a woman to work during the late months of pregnancy. However, since women in these situations are having to work less hours in a year than her male colleagues, it is only fair that she should receive less pay for the duration of her absence. And childbearing women have to limit their time invested in work, because they have their duties to their children. Since, these women who choose to be mothers, experience a long leave of absence, they are unfit to be leaders in these companies.

[Jxpxtxr]

I disagree, after reading your comment I've done a little research on what gender in fact works more and I've found many statistics proving you wrong, here an example

newsimg.bbc.co.uk/.../_42821623_work_hours_416.gif

Also you're mentioned maternity leave but first of all, not every woman, especially not many very career oriented ones, do actually want children and secondly the time the maternity leave can perfectly be compared to a sickness or disease as a reason to one of their male coworkers for missing work for a longer period of time.

[Byakuyarko]

You are correct. Maternity leave can be compared to a long term sick leave. However, be it a long term sickness or a pregnancy- a long absence from work, means that the individual (male, female, anything in between) will not acquire the necessary practical experience to lead a team. There is no statistic on Earth that can refute something as obvious as this and still be considered legitimate

[Jxpxtxr]

I agree with that last statement of yours, so you will agree that women and men do actually deserve equal pay for an equal amount work :)

[Byakuyarko]

yes. absolutely. Not only women and men... but any human of any gender identity deserves equal work for equal pay