A Historical Look at Women's Roles in the Military

[Catholicgirl22]

In ancient times among some peoples such as so call barbarian tribes and nations women fought alongside the men.

Some rose to great fame and commanded nations, armies and navies like Boudica, Joan of Arc, Artemisia, Grace O'Malley and others.

Boudicia

Grace O'Malley

Joan Of Arc

World War 1

It was during the first world war that women were mobilized in unprecedented numbers mostly to replace the men in industrial and agricultural work who were conscripted to fight. Tens of Thousands of women served as nurses in the military behind the lines in every theatre.

Russia was the only country to use female soldiers. Its few "Women's Battalions" fought well, In the later Russian Civil War, the Bolsheviks would also employ women infantry.

Individual women would fight in various revolutions and conflicts between ww1&ww2.

World War 2

More women were mobilised than ever during WW2 espicially in factories and agricultural. Women played ever more important roles in the military freeing up more men for combat duties these roles included administration, nurses, truck drivers, mechanics, electricians, and auxiliary pilots but also 700,000 served in combat roles mostly as Anti-aircraft gunners. In Britain women had important roles such as aircraft controllers which was so important during the Battle of Britain, as spies and radio operators for SOE parachuting into nazi occupied Europe, or as decoders, decripting the German enigma code and interpreting aerial photographs.

Even future Queen Elizabeth served as a driver/mechanic in the British Army.

United States.

In all, 350,000 American women served in the U.S. military during World War II. Women didn't have some of the roles in the military that women had in Britain but they greatly helped the war effort. But language speicialists did help intelligence agencies greatly. Women also were greatly involved as decoders with MAGIC and were parachuted into occupied Europe as OSS spies like their British counterparts. A large number of American women served as Nurses all over the world in the US military during WW2.

Russia.

More than 800,000 women served in the Soviet Armed Forces during the war, which is roughly 3 percent of total military personnel, mostly as medics. About 300,000 served in anti-aircraft units and performed all functions in the batteries—including firing the guns. Some Russian women also served as bomber pilots the most famous of these were called the Night Witches.

Famously the Soviet Union also deployed women as snipers on the brutal eastern front. One of these was Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko credited with 309 kills. She is regarded as one of the top military snipers of all time and the most successful female sniper in history.

Other countries.

Other countries employed women in various roles which I won't go into but Britain, America and the Soviet union were the major users of women in the military.

Post WW2.

Israel

Israel has been a big user of women in the military since its birth. Current women are conscripted into the military just like the men and combat roles have long been open to women.

Vietnam

In Vietnam thousands of women fought french and American troops in the Vietcong.

Cold war and post cold war US military.

During the cold war women gained more roles in the military for instance In 1974, the first six women aviators earned their wings as Navy pilots, On December 20, 1989, Captain Linda L. Bray, 29, became the first woman to command American soldiers in battle, during the invasion of Panama. Over 40,000 women served in almost every role the armed forces had to offer in the 1991 Gulf War which was a pivotal time for women in the US armed forces.

Afganistan and Iraq.

Women's roles in the military have changed dramatically since 2001 with more roles open to women.

During the Iraq War and the Afghanistan War, more than two hundred thousand women served, of which 152 were killed; of those 84 were killed by enemy action. During the Afghanistan War, American soldier Monica Lin Brown, was presented the Silver Star for shielding wounded soldiers with her body, and then treating life-threatening injuries.

In 2008, Ann Dunwoody became a four-stargeneral in the Army, making her the first woman in U.S. military and uniformed service history to achieve a four-star officer rank. In 2011, Major General Margaret H. Woodward commanded Operation Odyssey Dawn's air component in Libya, making her the first woman to command a U.S. combat air campaign. In 2012, Janet C. Wolfenbarger became the first female four-star general in the Air Force.

Michelle J. Howard began her assignment as the U.S. Navy's first female (and first African-American female) four-star admiral on July 1, 2014. In December 2015, Defense Secretary Ash Carter stated that starting in 2016 all combat jobs would open to women. In March 2016, Ash Carter approved final plans from military service branches and the U.S. Special Operations Command to open all combat jobs to women, and authorized the military to begin integrating female combat soldiers "right away."

Women have been in combat since 2001 in both Iraq and afganistan not as frontline infantry soldiers but as drivers in convoys and other non infantry roles but combat is not just on the frontlines. Now that combat roles in the infantry are open to women the real question is can they be as effective as men. A big hinderance is the weight of the gear an infantry soldier must carry which includes a rifle, body armor, ammo and pack etc which weighs between between 60 and 100 pounds and the average woman at 5.3ft weighs 168.5 pounds. Male infantry soldiers are currently having trouble with injuries to their backs, feet, ankles and knees from humping that gear for miles while training and on deployment so it must be worse for women as we are biologically weaker physically. I'm all for women in the infantry provided the bar is not lowered for us due to our gender.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.military.com/daily-news/2017/05/17/army-marine-corps-look-lighten-load-combat-troops.html/amp

[Anonymous]

It’s great to have women in the military but there are jobs that women cannot do because of bilological differences especially in the frontlines

[Catholicgirl22]

At the moment yes

[Opinion Owner]

Unless you put steroids in them or manipulate their genome, it’s best to have women in certain military jobs but not all

[Catholicgirl22]

No they are talking about finding ways to lighten the combat load of an infantry soldier as the men are having trouble with it in the field and injuries are common. Like 60-120kg weighs as much as a knight's suit of armour while the likes of ISIS or the Taliban are just carrying their weapon and bullets.

[Opinion Owner]

Okay... and this relates to women in combat?

[Catholicgirl22]

It's the weight of the gear that's holding women back. There are plenty of women in combat against ISIS.

[Opinion Owner]

Not exactly, it’s also carrying injured men and just working together as a cohesive squad. The United States Marine Corps did a study and found overall male squads did better than integrated squads. Combat is not only just shooting a gun and carrying heavy things.

[Catholicgirl22]

I agree. The point is they are not lowering the bar I dont think for female personnel in the infantry.

[Opinion Owner]

The problem is they are

[Hydra6544]

Most soldiers were 2 metal plates on their back and chest the back would fit fine but the front one would be a little difficult and it would feel good getting hit.

[CubsterShura]

There were female freedom fighters in 1971 Liberation War of Bangladesh as well.

[CubsterShura]

I love how they were just your everyday ordinary women and after the war was announced they became warriors.

[Catholicgirl22]

Oh thankyou.

[madhatters4]

great take. it's so important to realize that women in combat roles is not new. obviously a person's fitness for combat should always be considered; however, that consideration should be made regardless of sex. if a person is fit and wants to serve there is absolutely no reason why they sex should stand in the way

[Catholicgirl22]

Well said.

[OlderAndWiser]

Ir is a mistake to categorically claim that women are physically inferior to men and, therefore, should not be allowed in combat. There are many women who are at least as big and strong as the lower rung males who are combat qualified.

I am not in favor of drafting women into the military but, if they want to enlist and they can compete physically, I would not prevent them from being placed in combat roles.

[IconAura]

Same here as long as they can meet the same physical requirements, but in a time of crisis the option to draft women may be needed so it's debatable

[ThatPersonOverThere]

And if they meet the same physical standards as men, I would happily welcome them aboard. That said, women are literally held to a lower physical standard in the military, and that needs to be done away with.

[Catholicgirl22]

@ThatPersonOverThere it's not deemed important in the military roles woman hold in the military which are mostly administration or in medical fields. I think only 15% of the military are actually in infantry roles.

[ThatPersonOverThere]

I agree that in *most* roles, generally the non combat ones, that it's not as important.

But it still doesn't explain why the men in those same roles have to hit a higher physical standard.

The standards should be divided by combat vs non combat roles, rather than men vs women as it is now.

[Catholicgirl22]

@ThatPersonOverThere I suppose they want each gender healthy and fit. They also may have lowered the bar to be sure they gain the extra manpower from female recruits, remember the military doesn't conscript or even want conscripts.

[IconAura]

I don't think it's the non-combative roles that is the issue, it is the combat roles which is specifically the problem when giving lower physical standards

[Catholicgirl22]

@IconAura combat infantry role sure, like they did tests which proved that.

[ArgonYsellian]

Women are just not made for combat, that has been proven over and over again, there are some that make it but most of them won't, it's simple biology. The ones to fit the pattern are really rare and probably most won't chose to join the military.

[Catholicgirl22]

@ArgonYsellian maybe but most military roles aren't combat infantry at least that's the case in most modern armies that don't rely on poorly trained conscripts.

[castratedwhiteguy]

Bullshit!

[Catholicgirl22]

@castratedwhiteguy look it up. Only about 15% of the US military are infantry roles.

[ladsin]

Yes, woman have done great feats of battle and should be treated equally.

There is an issue about sexual assault and rape within our military communities, that needs to be worked out.

[Catholicgirl22]

True but it seems that it needs addressed in all walks of life as well.

[ladsin]

Certainly true.

[ADFSDF1996]

There were also Onna Bugeisha who would assist Samurai in battles. Another group of women that almost nobody knows about are the Japanese-American women that served in the Women’s army corps (WAC) during WWII. The WAC wasn’t a combat role though, the combat roles were given to the Japanese-American males (442nd RCT and MIS).

[JimRSmith]

Interesting. I'm still not in favour of having women on the front line, though.

[englisc]

With guns, women can do as much damage as men. Otherwise no, they can't. In combat sports they have separate divisions for men and women for good reason - the women would get destroyed. They're nowhere near as strong as men.

These ideas are mostly encouraged by people who want this to be true, feminists especially. But in order to do so they have to ignore biology and other historical evidence. The fact that so many people are so easily fooled by this is mind-boggling.

For example, Lagertha. A woman from a fictional TV series representing the idea of "shield maidens". There's no way a 120lb woman is gonna win a sword fight with a man twice her size. That's not what shieldmaidens were. In his book Germania, written about Germanic tribes, Tacitus wrote that the women would accompany their men to battle to cheer them on. One of the biggest motivations for those men was to protect their women for fear of them being taken by the rival tribe if they lost. The women would also have spare weapons and shields should their men lose theirs - that's a shieldmaiden. Not a fighter, that would be ridiculous.

[Catholicgirl22]

Women certainly did fight with the men that's not in doubt mostly to lend numbers. Winning a sword battle is not dependant on size or strength but on skill.

[englisc]

It is dependent on strength. If a man can swing a sword twice as hard as you can he's gonna knock it out of your hand, there's no way you can block his swing. Those swords were heavy too.

[Catholicgirl22]

That's what shields are for and most warriors in history did not fight with a sword espicially Vikings.

[englisc]

Shields, axes, spears... It doesn't matter. If someone with much more strength and much bigger than yourself swings one at you you'll struggle to defend it even with a shield.

[Catholicgirl22]

That's why it pays to be a better warrior. The Japanese samurai understood this as did most warriors.

[englisc]

You can have amazing skills but if someone is much larger than you and they have such a huge strength difference then they'll over power you. A woman vs a guy twice her size is like a woman vs a child. Studies show that even the strongest women have less sttength than the average man, scoring in the bottom 20%, and thats an untrained unfit man - the difference between them and a trained man is much higher. Skill can't make up for such a difference in strength.

[Catholicgirl22]

Studies have shown that a well trained woman in martial arts can defeat a man with less training.

[englisc]

Sometimes, but those are rare exceptions. Check this out, this is Lucia Rikjer, who many believe to be the best female boxer/kickboxer of all time. Undefeated against women, world champion. Here she fights a man with less experience, with losses, relatively unknown, not a champion, of the same weight - and she doesn't make it past the second round:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X2QgDWSfQik&t=36s

[englisc]

This is the difference between a woman and a man of same experience, but the man is bigger this time:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rRfCpQx_FDE

[Catholicgirl22]

https://youtu.be/Q1i1xBt9QKY
Most soldiers in history had little training and were basically handed a spear or an axe. Historically women have been warriors, if they couldn't be useful in a fight they wouldn't be there

[englisc]

Yeah, the examples you're giving are well trained women vs not so well trained men, of the same size. Most men are bigger than most women. But the average woman vs the average man of the same size and she'll lose most of the time. Put her against the average guy who is bigger than her, which most are, then she'll lose even quicker. Out those trained women against guys twice her size, the strength difference will be too big for her to win unless she's lucky. If she does win she's not gonna repeat that again and again. It's a biological fact that men are much stronger, we're build for combat whereas women are build to carry and nurture children. Female warriors especially back then make no sense. Like I said, to think thats true you have to deny biological reality and have little experienve in actual combat. As I mentioned before they were there to encourage the men to win and to give them spare weapons.

[Catholicgirl22]

True but it's not a contest of physical strength, it doesn't matter how strong you are a blade ends the fight.

[SixFootSexy]

ladyimperium.wordpress.com/.../

One of the problems with women in combat is they are going against nature to do so. (Sure, there are some exceptions you showed, especially WWII Russia where nearly all the men were wiped out.) But they're exceptions and not the rule. There's a reason why there hasn't been any well-known female special forces, because there aren't enough women wanting to do that kind of dangerous work. Men and women have wildly different goals in life and how they view power is one example of why women are terrible in positions of power is they are typically short-sighted or solipsistic in their use of power. Angela Merkel of Germany being an example of a terrible modern leader.

Again, there are exceptions, but if women were better at running the world or fighting, they could've been doing so for thousands of years at least in some tribe or nation like the fantasy of Wonder Woman, but no such nation exists.

[Catholicgirl22]

You realise women are basically running Europe

[SixFootSexy]

And you see how that's working out... Muslims are coming in and taking over everything. It will be a different continent in 20 years.

[Phoenix98]

Personally I am not for women in the military at least not in combat roles to be quite frank females are physically inferior and not mentally not suited for combat or the horrors of war.

Now obviously that will not be the case with every single woman but that is the case for the vast majority. In my opinion that standards need to be higher then what they are and not lowered.

Women are better suited for roles that cater to their more maternal mental state and better multitasking abilities, such as medical and communications. If a woman can prove that she can properly fight in combat and pass at the same standard as a man.

But you also forgetting parts of history as well like the fact that women weren't allowed to fight in the Russian military because of equality but more because Stalin saw all of his people has nothing more then expendable tools to be used and discarded, men, women and children.

O and shield maidens didn't actually exist, they only show up in folklore and mythology not in actual history.

[Catholicgirl22]

Sheild maidens existed simply out of necessity as their men were away fighting and they had to defend their village. Doesn't matter what Stalin used his people for women in the Red Army existed. You overlook the main reason there have been so many women in the military past and present-day to free up men from non-combat roles. In a modern military like the US military only 15% are combat infantry roles.

[Phoenix98]

Ok then give me a historically proven example of them existing outside of fables and mythology.

It matters a lot actually, if you were familiar with Soviet Tactics during the war you'd agree.

Hahah omg you actually believe that? Darlin when you join the military you are first and foremost a rifleman they even tell you that when you join, doesn't matter what field or branch you joined, you are first and foremost a rifleman.

And when you deploy you very rarely ever do what you went to school for or trained to do. My father for instance is an IT guy in the army, his first deployment he never did anything IT related they put him in charge of a squad and sent him out on guard duty and patrols as well as terrorist hunting in the caves. And he went to school to just be an IT guy.

They do that for literally everyone and if fighting ever happens you will be thrust into combat and expected to fight.

No one really ever does what they're trained to do.

[Phoenix98]

And what you think is and isn't a combat position isn't necessarily the case.

Don't listen to stupid statistics they're very rarely ever accurate regardless of what your looking at compared to the actual reality of things.

[Catholicgirl22]

Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko 309 kills during ww2 shows that women can be capable shooters.
Women are in the military and therefore are first and foremost riflemen, though I think it's the marines that say that.
My sister and mother were in the navy and marines. My sister was deployed on convoy duty in Iraq, she saw combat despite only being a cook.

[mistixs]

Yeah there have been some women in the military historically. There have also been some women with beards; that doesn't mean they're not exceptions.

Studies show that female soldiers get injured more frequently than male soldiers[1] and mixed-gender troops perform more poorly than male-only units[2].
[1] www.washingtonpost.com/.../
[2] www.npr.org/.../marine-corps-study-finds-all-male-combat-units-faster-than-mixed-units

Men and women are complementary in their strengths. Men are better at engaging in combat; women are better at peacemaking. Studies show that when there are more women in government, less war breaks out, & when women's groups influence peace processes, agreements are far more likely to be reached and implemented.
www.inclusivesecurity.org/.../...rief-10.12.15.pdf

It's not necessary for women to get involved in war. They should use their abilities to make it so that no wars break out in the first place.

Before anyone asks... I don't believe in equality.

[Oram52]

"Before anyone asks... I don't believe in equality. "
So what do you believe in?

[mistixs]

@Oram52 Equity. Complementarianism. Whatever. It's hard to put into words.

[Prankster13]

Great take. This was really interesting.
I'd say I agree I'm all for allowing ladies in the military-- for the most part.

The only thing I have a problem with is active combat roles. Not like piloting or driving machinery. But on the field fighting. Because like you said they are generally weaker than men. And that not only disadvantages them against their many times male opponents. But it also gives their side just a little less power.

In the case of active combat. I don't think it's fair to the men to make them fight with or against women. Because that's an unfair fight in their favor. Men should never have to fight women.
And I don't think it's fair to the women to let them fight with or against men. Because that's an unfair fight against them. Women should never have to fight men.
It's just not on equal turf. Sorry. But it's better I think to keep combat against men as a man's position. Otherwise it's not fair to either gender.

[Catholicgirl22]

I get where your coming from but I think your wrong. Warfare is not a fair occupation and a bullet shot from a female soldiers gun does as much damage as one from a males.

[Prankster13]

True. But the equipment they have to carry. And the physical wear of an active battleground. Makes it much much harder than sniping as far as strength goes. Sniping is fine though. I just think that when men are able to go to the battle. It's never fair to send women instead. Because even though they can shoot and take a bullet just as well as a man. There's more to it than that. And their troops depend on their abilities being on par with a man's.

Plus. If a soldier is injured. And it's a girl. That's not much different than when a man gets injured. A man carries her back.
But if a man in injured. And a woman has to carry him back. That could much more easily end with both being shot down. Because of the gender strength and weight difference.

It's just not a level playing field when it's like that. If no men are able then sending a woman in is the best bet. But if it's man or woman on this kind of battleground. I always want to go with the man. It just makes more sense.

[Catholicgirl22]

Your right about the weight of the gear but not all soldiers wear such heavy armor and women have been in quite a few firefights. Like is any fairer when say the us army calls in an airstrip against say the Taliban. Nothing fair in war.

[Prankster13]

Ya I guess. But I still think it's in their best interests to let men do that part.
But I suppose. All's fair in love and war. As they say.

[Aynsof]

One way or another women are always a part of anyway as much as men even when they fulfil vastly different roles
Nowadays with the type of weaponry in play there is little to prevent them from active combat roles which is something that has been entirely common historically even though there are examples of it
If we must have military and if they wish to serve in it then let them by all means

[MarketData]

Women should be able to choose their own role. I wouldn't force them to serve on the front line but I wouldn't prohibit it either. What women lack in physical strength they frequently make up for in determination and common sense.

[ArgonYsellian]

Wait a minute, man would be 'forced' to serve on frontlines why wouldn't women? She chose to join the military, where is the equality in that? Death is death regardless of gender.

[Catholicgirl22]

@ArgonYsellian no one has been conscripted in most modern armies for a long time.

[Jjpayne]

Empowering! Thanks for sharing! It's pretty cool to see women's roles in history and who knew the queen was a mechanic! lol
I am posting that on my car post! Great mytake and good work!

[HeyThere94]

I love when the socially conservatives said that the women should not belong in the military but they failed to look at history

[Catholicgirl22]

The ones that say women shouldn't work instead stay at home like pre 1950's housewives and not work failing to realise that historically women have been part of the work force since the industrial revolution and back before that even.

[HeyThere94]

Well they have a much lower IQ, so anything that they would say is stupid lol

[HeyThere94]

I must have triggered three of them lol

[Tideo568]

My since teacher said men and women shouldn’t fight in the military TOGETHER. It’s obvious men will try to protect the women or get distracted. I think that we should have a separate women military that fights against another women military. Also women in the military should be strelized to biology didn’t get in the way.

[Catholicgirl22]

Women in the military have access to contraception, how will sterlizatiosterilisation stop biology. Also women have been side by side in the military for a long time. Women in the us military have been in combat since the Iraq war. History and the present doesn't agree with your teacher's opinions I'm afraid.

[Anonymous]

Great take! I believe that all females in the US of the same age as guys should be required to register for the Selective Service... and be denied Financial Aid for college if they don't... just like guys.

[Catholicgirl22]

Personally I think the best thing the US military ever did was stop drafting people choosing a well trained proffessional volunteer military.

[didigo182]

I consider these women the 'true Feminists'. Very different from the hysterical mental hysterical that we see today on the Internet.

Such equality few want (or do not have the physical intellectual ability) to have.

[ArgonYsellian]

First comment I agree with, too many so-called feminists that only want equality as long as it benefits them. as soon as a war would break none of those feminist would have a problem that the only man should be drafted.

[Logorithim]

Good Take. There is always a need for people, regardless of gender, who can do military jobs.

[Anonymous]

If a society allows women to join the military then women should be able to join without judgement, be treated equally, and given equal opportunity to see combat.

[umay96]

Sabiha Gökçen

She is recognized as the first female combat pilot by The Guinness Book of World Records and was selected as the only female pilot for the poster of "The 20 Greatest Aviators in History" published by the United States Air Force in 1996.