How imitating men is sexist towards women

[Nadim171]

Introduction:

If someone is calling for men to be more feminine it is considered an attack on masculinity and men. But if someone is calling on women to be more manly it is considered empowerment,so why is that? And is this right or wrong? Here is why

Encouraging women to be like men is sexist:

Women's natural behaviour is feminine,and femininity is a beautiful thing! But when someone says that "in order for women to be equal they need to abandon femininity you're basically saying that female nature is inferior to Male nature" which means that men are superior to women.

Is femininity something to be ashamed of?

Why do women have to hide their femininity in order to feel equal? Let's take a look at what is and isn't feminine characteristics:

Feminine characteristics:

•Soft voice

•Colorful ambient

•peace and unhostility

•beauty

•motherhood

What isn't feminine characteristics:

•Being submissive (just because women are phisically weaker and don't tend to be hostile doesn't mean anyone should take their kindness for weakness)

•being a maid (cleaning and cooking if are forced are not feminine behaviour)

•violence (women tend to be less hostile than men)

I don't see why this is something to be ashamed of

My Personal opinion:

Personally,i see femininity as a beautiful thing and a blessing given to women,i lose respect for women who behave manly,because they abandom such thing. Femininity was never inferior if anything it's superior. Without women we wouldn't exist.

[MzAsh]

The problem is within what we view as feminine and not feminine. Soft voice? Plenty of men have a soft voice and are no less of a man because of it. Plenty of women are louder naturally.

What many people view as manly really isn’t exclusive to men anyway.

[Nadim171]

Soft doesn't mean low

[esotericstory]

Men who are castrated have a soft voice and that of course makes them less of a man.

[John_Doesnt]

I am proud to say I've only had sex with women who were born a woman and have never had a penis at any point in her life.

[HeyThere94]

I dated feminine women before and they were annoying and submissive

[Nadim171]

Feminine and submissive are two different things, really different

[HeyThere94]

In my experiences, submissive and feminine are the same thing

Tomboys are dominant while girly girls are more submissive

[Anonymous]

Ridiculous. Femininity and masculinity is mainly influenced by societal nurturing, not nature.
You'd think everyone would know this by now.

If a man happens to more feminine; soft spoken, peaceful and unhostile, pacifistic, doesn't enjoy masculine sports, etc, does he deserve to lose respect?
If you don't like certain people (because people can be born and raised differently), leave them alone. There's no need for you to shame them and tell them they don't deserve your pretentious respect. They don't want you anyway.

I'm more masculine than the average girl, I still retain some feminine characteristics though, but just because I was raised with older brothers who introduced me to things they like. I had no female figure in my life till later; it's just how I was raised. Why the fuck should I lose respect just because I was raised in a different environment to some other girls & to your pretentious, righteous self?

Am I justified to lose respect for a man (a friend of mine) who was raised with 6 sisters and was nurtured more with femininity, thus embodying parts of it himself? Hell no. So back off.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"You'd think everyone would know this by now."
You'd think it would be obvious there's a biological/nature element to it, but...

"Why the fuck should I lose respect just because I was raised in a different environment"
It's not a question how people "should" react. It's a question of simply how people react. If people don't like it then they don't like it. If a guy is too feminine then he's going to be less desirable to women. That's just a general rule and you can say people should be one way or the other all you want but sexuality is real and we'd prefer people get along rather than not. People should have the opportunity to be gender-nonconforming and the permission to be so, but they shouldn't be encouraged to be so nor pedestalized.

[Opinion Owner]

@AllThatSweetJazz "You'd think it would be obvious there's a biological/nature element"
Explain this biological element & why it is relevant when masculinity in women does exist & femininity in men does exist. Further explain why it's more significant than the societal nurturing that still overcomes it.

"It's a question of simply how people react"... No it's not. I clearly questioned him about why this is the case, not of how he reacted. I can clearly see that's how he as an individual reacted to masculinity in women (+most likely femininity in men)😂 That's not the point of my post.

"If a guy is too feminine then he's going to be less desirable to women." There's a range here that you're not factoring in his which makes this statement incorrect. what's too feminine/masculine for this guy is not what's too masculine/feminine for another, thus people who are allegedly too feminine/masculine for their sex by his standards would still be in relationships because others don't think that way, nor to his extent. This guy is thinking too extremely of his standards to the point that he got on his phone/computer and blabbed about his loss of respect for such people. Proof of this would be you walking on the street and seeing a wide range of different men hand-in-hand with women. It's just like the whole "why do some ugly guys/girls get the chosen, but not me?" thought. There's different standards+ranges. No such thing as too feminine or too masculine in our current culture. Why? Because of societal nurturing, there's many people being raised in different ways, there's a larger acceptance of difference here as opposed to Eastern worlds. Men are men, women are women, we do not insult people for being masculine/feminine as we have the knowledge of the impact of upbringing. Or so we thought, because people like OP still exist.

Your last sentence is one I could agree to, but doing nothing achieves nothing, + being raised one way isn't fully the same as not conforming to gender.

[Opinion Owner]

@AllThatSweetJazz So to rephrase, if your last sentence is true in the sense that you don't believe gender non-conformity is a problem (even though I was more so talking about not choosing to become feminine or masculine due to upbringing, in my examples) and that people should have that opportunity, there is no sense in critiquing and questioning OP's reaction to it. Because as I said, not doing anything about it gives birth to such people's mindsets. Not everyone chooses, some girls wete raised with butch father's that hand them guns and take them target practice, some men were raised fatherless and with nothing but sisters. Biology doesn't overcome the way they are raised in such environments, it's just natural adaptating of your surroundings. Learning. Development. Then you have close-minded people like OP who find a need in telling them they don't deserve respect, at very least their own, and try to manipulate it with words like "sexism" in their titles to garner attention to unimportant words. At what point do we educate such people if not directly under their ignorant post?

[Opinion Owner]

OOOPS big typo/left out word:
I meant ****"there is no sense in NOT critiquing and questioning OP's reaction to it."
Sorry about this if this originally confused you when reading.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"Explain this biological element."
Natural difference in hormone ratios. This influences behaviour and growth (notably brain growth) which in turn influences more behaviour.

"societal nurturing that still overcomes it."
It's a combination of nature a nuture. Your biology doesn't rule you but neither does it have no influence.

" I clearly questioned him about why this is the case"
Not sure what you're on about here, I suspect you're interpreting my words differently to how they were meant.

"There's a range here that you're not factoring in his which makes this statement incorrect. what's too feminine/masculine for this guy is not what's too masculine/feminine for another"
I am factoring that, on average what I said is true and that's the point.

"No such thing as too feminine or too masculine in our current culture."
Relative to the average, obviously there is. Having one person out there that likes you is very different from having most people like you.

"Because of societal nurturing"
That's not necessarily good. We want permissiveness regarding atypical behaviour, but also want to encourage behaviours that promote social cohesion.

"Biology doesn't overcome the way they are raised in such environments"
But it does influence them.
More importantly, even if it didn't, the problem is that they are still generally going to be heterosexual males and females that have typical tastes in others in terms of gender performance. So regardless of the cause,8 we want people to generally react more positively to each other without shoehorning them too hard into anything.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"telling them they don't deserve respect"
Again, this goes back to what I was saying before. It's not about what they "should" have or what they "deserve", it's about how people react and what comes of it. To reiterate, so what if a guy who was raised feminine deserves respect? Life ain't fair and women generally aren't into that. He's just getting screwed over by that "societal conditioning." What happened to those guys? They are today's incels that everyone loves to shit on (seriously, it's like pointing at a depressed person and going "HA HA, you're sad!" and still people shit on them nonetheless, but I digress) or some toxic male feminist or something like that.

People who are adamant about their atypical behaviour should be permitted to be divergent and on the outside if they choose it. But what we don't want is people who are stuck on the outside when they want to be a part of the norm.

Imitating men as an individual is fine, but trying to equate to men is a common thing for feminists who claim everything is sexism and I guarantee there is an artile out there complaining about exactly this. Of course then there's going to be another article saying not liking masculine women in sexism because it's forcing women into certain behaviours. Anyway, now I'm going off on a whole other tangent.

[Opinion Owner]

@AllThatSweetJazz oh my God, I was originally writing replies to your paragraphs, but then I saw this in your last comment: "Again, this goes back to what I was saying before. It's not about what they "should" have or what they "deserve", it's about how people react and what comes of it."
You're going in circles, redundantly, and ignoring my reply to this comment you've already originally made. I made it clear what I was addressing for my initial post and you should know that since that's probably my primary purpose/argument for posting.

Until you get out of this circle, I'm sorry, I don't see any point in further discussion with you :/ I will say though, I never denied biology, rather you previously didn't acknowledge societal nurturing. I never said biology does not have influence, I said "it doesn't overcome societal nurturing" (this implies the influence exists) and you should know that by now after our prior interesting discussion.
Masculinity and feminity is NOT atypical behaviour considering both you (if you have a large social circle) and I know plenty of people with it, thus yes, societal nurturing is normal and fine, there's nothing wrong with it. As soon as you finally agree with it's role you try to turn it into an alleged bad thing.

Anyway, I don't expect you to change your opinion, we are after all different people, I respect your experiences and individual life. For the fact that we probably will not come to agree with one another, I'm going to leave this discussion now~ we've already begun to go in circles and probably will continue to, so this is my last reply (I'm not very active here anymore anyway as you can tell from my late replies).
Discussion aside, I hope you have a good day, man.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"You're going in circles, redundantly, and ignoring my reply to this comment you've already originally made. I made it clear what I was addressing for my initial post"
Clarify what you think I'm ignoring. I'm answers questions presented in your opriginal post.

"rather you previously didn't acknowledge societal nurturing"
Did I ever say there was no societal nurturing?

"it doesn't overcome societal nurturing"
I think this understates the role biology plays.

"As soon as you finally agree with it's role you try to turn it into an alleged bad thing."
It's not a good or bad thing. But you can use it in toxic ways. Encouraging people to be gender atypical behaviour is toxic. I'm trying to saying that it's not all fine and dandy to be that guy raised in a household of women. That's my point.

[Opinion Owner]

@AllThatSweetJazz "Encouraging people to be gender atypical behaviour is toxic. I'm trying to saying that it's not all fine and dandy to be that guy raised in a household of women." This whole part is just a big "nope" for me, we're the complete opposites in every way for perspectives on this topic. I've also already replied to your opinion on the atypical part. I will not repeat myself for this or the other part when you can just go back and read.

The end of this overdue, I tried telling you respectfully we'll only disagree. There's no point in continuation, I don't see the value of clarification nor repeating everything you ignore. Agree to disagree, and let's peacefully move on.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

You can say I'm ignoring you or going in circles, but that doesn't automatically mean I am. I just think you've got some things wrong.

[VIVANT]

Actually I agree! but not in the way you put it.

Attacking men for being feminine is an attack on women -especially when women being masculine is accepted

In both cases the feminine is denigrated- whether by women or by men same thing its not respected. Without feminine energy there would be only destruction.

Everyone should be proud to have peace and reason rule aggression and impulsivity. Yet it is seen as shameful and in every way mocked. Then people pretend to value freedom and dignity. .. This is a crazy world.

[debi2622]

I am not a feminist. But your ideas on what is desired it not really accurate. No one is asking men to be more feminine. And being a feminist is not about being manly. Reducing/eliminating objectification of women and workplace pay/opportunity equality are the main goals.

[Nadim171]

I specified what I was talking about, which is acting like men, and trying to look like men

[debi2622]

Yes I know. I read it. I stand by my reply. :) However the trying to look like men - are you talking gay women or straight women? As I have known some gay women that do gravitate towards more manly appearances. But you cannot push that onto straight women that are feminists.

[Nadim171]

I mainly meant straight women, I mean being politically or financially equal to men isn't related to looking like men

[debi2622]

No but there is a lot of cross over related stuff that skews interpretation of so much.

[DWD94]

I view feminism as nothing more than an all-female r/incels circlejerk.

Also, as long as men have hormones/sex drives, objectification/sexualization isn't going to go away.

[Harmseygrace]

I really really want that bed in the first picture.

[Massageman]

Thank you. Men were made masculine, women were made feminine. When WILL those other people just accept the nature of things?

[ilikeboysindresses]

I disagree. The point is choosing your own identity.

[MarketNews]

Women are sexist against themselves? Whatever, dude.

[Nadim171]

Sometimes they really are.

[Secretgardenblood]

Good mytake

[esotericstory]

I agree.