Black Panther Double Standard, Black People In Thor?

[Anonymous]

I just saw black pather and I thought it was an excellent movie. And I can also appreciate the pro-black message and culture. Black panther would have felt out of place if there were white people among the african-tribe. There were white people but none of them were part of the tribe.

However, there seems to be a double standard for things when regarding pro-black diversity. One example is Thor. Thor is supposed to be based on European-Norse Mythology (aka white people) and yet they include blacks and Asian in Asgard.

Also heimdall (the black guy) was a white man in the comics originally and there were no black people in the Asgard mythology. And the new Movie Thor: Ragnarok, the character Valkyrie who supposed to be an Asgardian Female Warrior (originally white in the comics) based, again on European Norse mythology is played by an African-Mexican Black-Latina actress.

If they made a marvel movie based on an African god and his kingdom I wound't expect them to put a bunch of white people in there right? So from an original content standpoint there were never black people in Thor Comics, from a mythology stand point Thor is based in white-european mythology where black people/asians and anything else were not part of. The thing that is annoying is the double standard. If there is going to be diversity then put diversity everywhere. Throw mexicans and whites and Asians in the black panther African tribes. If you are going to allow certain cultures to retain a pure ethnic group (because obviosuly many times it does make sense) then make the allowances fair and allow whites to have that also, such as thor which is based on European mythology.

I didn't see any Asians or white people in the movie Coco. I thought diversity makes people stronger.

[Anonymous]

I'm all for diversity, but only if it doesn't feel forced. In Thor, (fictitious superheroes) they had room to throw in diversity, and it was great. In the Black Panther, it still fits the narrative to have less diversity which is still okay. However, in The Last Jedi, it was terribly forced (talking about gender here). Yes it makes sense in the narrative, and I prefer women to have prominent roles in Sci-Fi/Fantasy--I love it, and I love women. But when every woman was in a high command, and only died when making a noble sacrifice (while just about every guy was expendable) felt really artificial. Going back to diversity, they did the same thing in Beauty and the Beast. You either have to go more fantasy or more history and they tried to jam it in the middle, and judging by the current events, I'd say it was intentional. Disney is going that route a lot, and they also did it in Zootopia. Movies have a lot of political under/over tones, but most are subtly placed, and fit the narrative. If I'm brought out of fantasy movie fun into the real world, it destroyed my invesment in the story, and ruins the film a bit. The narrative doesn't have to conform to history, it just has to stay true to its self without changing have way through, and breaking its own rules--especially when it doesn't even subvert expectations. That's just bad writing

[Benedek38]

"In Thor, (fictitious superheroes) they had room to throw in diversity, and it was great."
It is based on ancient Nordic mythology ffs. What do you think, how common were sub-Saharan blacks in Scandinavia? Hint: not really. And Asgard (essentially the Nordic version of Heaven) was supposed to be populated with Nordic gods and the spirits of dead Nordic warriors (Valhalla).
I could understand Asians, because Vikings mingled with Asians when raiding present day Russia. But there were no black people far and wide. Meanwhile in Thor every second person had olive brown skin, indicating they were at least mediterranean.

It is not that diversity works here or there. It is just that you are using double standards. You don't like forced diversity of sexes, but like forced diversity of races.
by the way yes, I hated TLJ.

OH, by the way BTW: If you think Thor wasn't male bashing - remember the segment where Thor admits he wanted to be a crossdresser? Yeah.

[ADFSDF1996]

The Asian guy in Thor is actually “Hogun the grim” which is a supporting character. In the comics he is depicted as a character that appears to be based on the Mongolian tribesmen hence his Asian appearance. vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/.../latest In the comics he comes from a unnamed homeland.

[ADFSDF1996]

As for why heimdall was not Caucasian in the movie, I’m not sure.

[Asker]

I see, I search him up and he's not Asgardian technically but from another land. So him being Asian appearance make sense, but they never explained this in the movie. They present him as an asgardian. In the comic books though they are clear that he is different.

[Asker]

SO yes you're right, thanks for correcting me

[ADFSDF1996]

No problem, movies usually leave out a few details.

[dissolute_dog]

Yes good point about Hogun not being from Asgard, but just spending his time there with friends. And actually they do show that he is from another world in the second Thor movie ("The Dark World"). He goes to spend some time on his home world, and Thor helps him there at the beginning of the movie. And Hogun doesn't actually return to Asgard until the 3rd movie ("Ragnarok").

[Anonymous]

I have to say there may be a point to this. If it's going based on comics and stuff, the movie needs to do it's best to match it. Liek you said, great to see black people as part of the black tribes. However, making other people not how they are supposed to be is a bit of a double standard and really, it then puts into question how much the movie REALLY values diversity... if it is purposely mismatching white people that are supposed to have certain roles for other minorities, then I have a feeling there is pandering involved. It's like a trap. They did the black tribes right and KNOWING people would like it that way, they TOOK ADVANTAGE and messed up another part to service a target audience probably to make more money. If they truly wanted diversity they'd do it right for the right reasons and not just to make money off of certain target audience. Wow. Talk about political economic theory. Wish my communications theories prof would grade this as part of the final. Definaelty can make a reference to what she taught.

[Duke1985]

All these discussions are stupid. And no: talking more about it won't suddenly made the topic sn intelligent one. Neo from the matrix could have been black (will smith) but then he wasn't. Would they chsnge him now into a black character, that would be weird. James bond is fucking white. But heck, if they really go for it and make him a black, i'll buy a ticket no matter what. Coco is in mexico and animated. I guess the voices are NOT 100% spoken by real mexicans. Also the director is not a mexican. Black panther is a kind of an African tribe. Of course there's no white people in it. I mean averybody and his mother would find that ridiculous! I have to say though, it was a great opportunity to get an almost complete blacm cast together. Nice job for all the snowflakes out there. But i bet they still find some racism in that movie.
You see, you can't force that. If a production company feels like people will buy tickets even if the fickin airbemder-dude is an albine then so be it. They were wrong, ok. But so what! That scarlet johannson ghost in a shell movie had good reactions from all the japanese folks. They thought it's a nice change that a character doesn't have those squinched eyes like all the japenes, chinese etc. actors. Just like their favourite manga characters. But still some people thought that casting her was a mistake.

Whatever man. People will rant, and producers will NOT change in order to be "more inclusive" .. they will change in order to sell tickets, that's all.

So it's not a double standard. It's a multible fucking standard, and also: not relevant.

[ksoma]

I good point. In fact, in the actual mythology, Heimdall was known as "the whitest of the Gods," if I remember correctly.

Look, Idris Elba was fantastic in Thor, and Ragnarok. And I liked Valkyries character a lot. Nothing against either actor... or even their portrayal of their roles. They both added a LOT to the film.

But you are entirely correct. In a film with a largely white cast, even based off of comics that stem from northern European mythology, characters are re-imagined as being of other races, to be "inclusive," and people rarely bat an eye at it.
But in Black Panther, if they had tried to incorporate other races (something I am not suggesting they should have done- it wouldn't have fit!), there would have been outrage.

Yeah. The double standard pisses me off.

[Asker]

Exactly, Idris Elba and The Valkyries were excellent actors. I like them a lot. They played their roll wery well, but it doesn't make sense when you look at the culture and it's not original to the comic.

Obviously, if you base a character off modern day new york, it's probably going to be normal he as a diverse group of friends.

But diversity won't make sense in certain situations.

Take the movie Alladin (based on arabs) and Mulan (based on chinese) , would it make sense to see Mexicans in those movies?

[ksoma]

That's why when some people tried to make an issue about Spiderman having "forced diversity," I just looked at them like they were total idiots.
Set in New York and DC primarily. Of course it is diverse!
That was people crying foul over nothing, seeing things that weren't there (mostly. There is the whole MJ thing, but that's all hypothetical still...)

But one reason they push diversity, supposedly, is that people don't want to see movies they aren't represented in. No black people in Thor? It must mean that they ostracize their potential black audience!
And that's a stupid mind set. No (or VERY few) white people in Black Panther... and we all still want to see it.
I don't need to see people who "look like me" to enjoy a movie.

Mulan? Aladdin? Hugely successful, and very loved, by most everyone. When I watch them with my niece, she just loves them, she never asks "where are the people who are white like me?"

[hellionthesagereborn]

Yep, their is absolutely a double standard. Personally I have no problem with a movie based in Africa to be almost entirely (or entirely) cast with black people, but as you pointed out why is it wrong when the reverse happens? People complained that game of thrones was racist because their where no black people in it completely ignoring that it was a fantasy version of middle age Europe which was entirely white at that time frame. Its a bullshit double standard that needs to go. I mean I perfectly fine if some want to bend the rule because they like the actor and he fits the role (for instance when they did the first daredevil movie they got Michael Clark Duncan for the role of king pin and he did fit, their wasn't exactly a lot of huge towering men that where a bit bulky but also muscular at the same time so some times you need to adapt) but its the mandate that we do this with white characters and movies ONLY that makes it so insufferable.

[msmissydc]

If it would be a movie about norse mythology I would kind of agree even though as the vikings where quite a seefaring folk it wouldn't even be that far stretched to have a non white guy between them. BUT this is about marvel Thor and he is literally an alien from a different planet. In the comics it is even explained why its mostly the skandinavian region that knows about the Asgardians because teenage thor wanted parties battles and alkohol which he got from the vikings the best. Although loki mixed with literally everyone, he just used different names wherever he went.

On the other hand wakanda is about a secret country in afrika that only recently opened to the world so why would white people life there?

[JamesDiaz11]

No- minorities want to have their cake and eat it too (ours too). They want to have their own spaces, but also to occupy a (prominent) place among our places. Most historical media, including myth, is being repainted as multicultural to give mostly blacks the idea that they were a part of building western civilization, instead of just those who did some of the farm work.

[Caaarl]

Yeah there will always be this kind of double standard. The thing is that people will portray the story closest to themselves. Part of the reason why minorties are so under-represented is the lack of minority stories being told.

Eventually we'll get to the point where everyone can tell their story the way they want and it won't be about gender quotas but it won't be any time soon.

[Caaarl]

I found video that goes along with it.[ https://youtu.be/fUE7k5cUjbY?t=58]Denzel Washington has the same thing to say.

[Caaarl]

0:58

[BlackMaleYou]

There has always been black people in the Norse regions. Ask Chedderman, he'll give u the gist.
You know I watch lord of the Rings and it was so racially diverse.
you probably did not grow up watching TV that is almost all white.

[Asker]

But not in norse mythology. Most of the time it was because of slavery. But the origins of norse mythology has no blacks, no Asians, no indigenous native americans or mexicans etc etc.

[BlackMaleYou]

The were no black slaves then, bro lol. There were noblemen from Africa that settled in Ancient European cities. There is even proof that ancient Greece was founded by ancient black Lybian tribes. The Hellenisation of Greece happened only 400bc ago. That means zeus and most Greece gods were black. Hector and the Trojans were black.
If u really do worry about historical accuracy maybe you should instead focus on why even the newest Jesus movies, painting, he is depicted as white.

[Asker]

If u really do worry about historical accuracy maybe you should instead focus on why even the newest Jesus movies, painting, he is depicted as white.

Yeah I agree about Jesus should be depicted as what he is, not a white man, not a black man, but a brown midddle eastern jew. Euro-centrist and Afro-Centrist like to look at the world as white and black when many times it's just something else.
i2.wp.com/.../Remodeled-Jesus-Facebook.jpg?w=618

[BlackMaleYou]

Well we can both agree he was middle eastern with most likely a brown skin.

[Patrickjv]

I don't really care. All of you Americans, whether white or black, shit on our European folklore with your degenerate Hollywood movies.

[Asker]

and you Europeans shit on yourselves by replacing your traditional European custom with Jewish culture and forgetting your roots.

[Patrickjv]

Lel what are you even talking about. You're just mad cuz you saw some black people in a movie. Norse mythology is not your cultural legacy unless you live in Scandinavia and I'm betting you don't.

[Asker]

Norse mythology is not your cultural legacy unless you live in Scandinavia and I'm betting you don't.

No but I have ancestors from there. And based on that logic african-americans and black people in Europe don't have a cultural legacy unless they were born in africa, and Africans don't have cultural legacy unless they are from the specific African country where the inspiration of wakanda came from and language and culture, therefore the only opinion that is valid is the African people from the specific Wakanda inspired country.

[Patrickjv]

No you're American. You cunts are no kin of ours. I really don't give a shit about some savage African tribes.

[Asker]

"No you're American"

When did I say I was something other than American. I made it clear I'm not from scandanavia but have ancestors there so why repeat why I just said?

"You cunts are no kin of ours. I really don't give a shit about some savage African tribes"
European-Nationalist would say otherwise, and good for yoy don't give a crap about African tribes. Your comment leads nowhere.

[Patrickjv]

Lel are you 1/64 Cherokee too? Americans have no claim to any cultural heritage over people who have lived on the European continent for thousands of years. That's what happens when you mix cultures together in your melting pot.

[Asker]

No I have no native American ancestry at all so I don't understand your point of bringing that up. Are you 1/16 black? You see how stupid that question was.

"Americans have no claim to any cultural heritage over people who have lived on the European continent for thousands of years"

According to who, your arbitrary rules? You do realize many cultures practice this right? Jews in Israel recognize the importance of ancestry. Many of the 566 tribes of Native Americans and First nations from Canada recognize ancestry. Many african-americans, despite living int he usa, still claim their ancestral continent.

So again you fall under fallacious logic.

[Patrickjv]

Yes according to our arbitrary cultural rules, we who live here, are the true heirs of that culture. You have that mass shooting, antidepressant eating, commercialized culture so how about you embrace that.

[hellionthesagereborn]

wow, bit racist aren't you. Where exactly are you from? I'd like to know so I can point out that your not actually "pure" and then explain why you can't lay claim to your "culture" because of it. Also I find it funny how your insulting america, but I can guarentee beyond any doubt that your benefiting from the things that sprung from that "non culture". I don't generally reduce my self to this but I feel like intellectual debate would be pointless with you as it would require you to have some kind of, I don't know, intellect? So to paraphrase, your stupid and you should feel bad.

[Patrickjv]

I would but you can't even use "you're" and "your" properly so there goes that intellectual powerhouse of yours.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Ha ha ha! Oh no, I didn't spell things right, clearly I'm stupid! No, I'm being sarcastic that a stupid comment you made for a couple of reasons one being that spelling is arbitrary and as long as the message is conveyed then that's all that matters (in fact we didn't have a set way of spelling until the 1700s or so) and two its a fallacious argument, the "I can't actually argue against anything that you said because I'm stupid so I'm going to call out some inane bullshit as an excuse not to engage the actual argument so I don't let on just how stupid I am" fallacy. Technically its just a red herring argument. I'm guessing German, germans seem to love hating on Americans while claiming a superior culture. Is that about right?

[Patrickjv]

I'm not actually claiming anything about a superior culture. We have our own culture and you have yours.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Strange because you stated we are not allowed to claim any culture because we are not fully one ethnic group or another, you also ridiculed americans for even making mention of other cultures folklore implying heavily that you have an extreme bias and you seem to think that your culture is superior. You also didn't answer my question. So we know its Scandinavia, Finland maybe? But then your not really finnish because Sweden colonized parts of Finland (and some data suggests a small percentage of finnish peoples genes are related to Asian) and thus made you inevitably only part finnish. But then I'm sure that's some kind of an acception to your own rule isn't it? Because "close enough" right? If your german then your not really german your german, Italian, hun etc.. So again, your reasoning is crap in that regard. So as far as I can tell you have decided to be an ass simply because you have decided to be an ass. Don't be an elitist asshole, no one likes those.

[Kingjester88]

Idris elba is one of my favorite actors. He could play harry potter, hitler, or Aragorn and I will still watch the movie.

[Asker]

Of corse he's an excellent actor. My problem isn't with idris, it's the people that have double standards for both.

If Tom Hanks played an important character in black panther that is supposed to be based on an African culture/tribe and also originally black in the comics, black people would be flipping out, despite Tom Hanks being one of the best actors in hollywood.

[Agamogenesis]

I agree that Thor didn’t need a diverse cast. Norse mythology was probably 100 percent Caucasian people.

[NoFcks2Give]

Vikings were multicultural. They often took slaves wherever they raided. These slaves raided for them. Know your shit,

[Benedek38]

"They often took slaves wherever they raided."
No they didn't. That's bullshit.
"These slaves raided for them."
Even bigger bullshit.
"Vikings were multicultural."
Multi-religious doesn't imply multicultural. And "viking" isn't a noun. It means "going on a raid". So technically, slaves wouldn't be vikings anyway, even if vikings took slaves (which they didn't, again.)

So yeah. "Know your shit"

[Breeeeeeeeeeeee]

Yea I also geared there were black Vikings as well. He’s is telling the truth. You do need to know your sh**

[SportsBrah]

Heimdall is a ridicule of Norse mythology because Heimdall is said to be the palest of pale of the Asir pantheon of gods. They made him black as some sort of joke.

[ozzmanzig]

I don't know it kinda seemed white washed. Like they took the Lion King and put black actors with crappy African accents. It still portrays people who live in small tribes as savages. And disney does own the marvel movies

[AynonOMouse]

Because Hollywood is pushing their anti White liberal agenda as usual.

[Dtegesd123]

yep, its weird that there was an Asian and Black guy in Asgard

[Guanfei]

That's simple, diversity is only required if there are white people.
Diversity in the US is just "less white people". If there are no white people, it's not an issue, as diversity only apply to them.

[HereIbe]

Oh, good Lord, you're a real whiny little baby, aren't you? Man up, snowflake.

[Asker]

You're a child trapped in a mans body, 45 years old and commenting like a edge lord

[TallGuy96]

You are saying some true shit, either treat all the same or don't do movies like these at all.

[HappyWheels]

Yup good old double standards.

[thatoneinabillion]

It's fiction.

[Asker]

So what?

[thatoneinabillion]

So whatever people would do in real life does not matter.

[ksoma]

That isn't the point. The point is, if JUST ONE character (say... Forest Whitaker's character for example. Support, not lead, like Heimdall), who should have been black, was white in Black Panther, there would have been something of an uproar.

The point is, why is it OK to change white characters to other race/ethnic groups, and any outcry of being true to the source is seen as racism, but changing a non-white character to white would almost certainly create outcry?

[thatoneinabillion]

@ksoma that isn't for anyone to change but the author.

[Anonymous]

Yes,.