Half of my life gone just to think about it if it's safe or not n after half of my life I'm thinking in this dying society what good my child would brought by coming in this earth.
Your child can experience riding a bike, watching TV, falling in love, learning to drive. You don't have to have one although I believe it is better for a child to experience these things regardless of the suffering. Because if there were no suffering, there would be no joy to register. Life is worth it
@nuffsaid Bro, if there was no suffering, then joy won't even matter at all. You'd have no need for anything to enjoy at all if you weren't able to suffer at all in the first place.
@nuffsaid My point was an example if one was not feeling anything bad then they would have no need to feel anything "good" at all. But that is the state of nonexistence and not being born, one has no need for "joy" or "good" things since one isn't existing and experiencing any of the "bad" things. The "bad" things we feel and experience generate a demand and desire to seek "joy", "comfort" and "good" things. Otherwise, then those "good" things would just be completely redundant and have no purpose or meaning at all.
@opurba Exactly! There are no guarantees that there would be a good outcome for your child if you were to bring them here into this world. No guarantee that they themselves would actually bring something or anything good all for coming here into this world.
Being 100% infertile and not wanting kids would meant you hit the jackpot bro! You won't even need a vasectomy, but that's only necessary ti be considered if you want to live a very sexually active lifestyle where you frequently pick up ladies and hook up with them, etc. But if you are celibate, the it won't even matter at all! LOL
@Spacebears Everything eventually becomes boring over time and when one does it too much. Some are hopelessly addicted to all kinds of shit because whatever it is that they are addicted to is what they want to feel, because it makes them feel "good" or feel "comfy".
Nope, I get pain still due to multiple surgeries from testicular cancer, I think sex is for those that are in a serious relationship or those who are married, there are people that just, have, sex to have sex, its pointless and stupid. Not many gentlemen left like myself
Call me a pessimist but I don't think we as world going in the right direction. So I don't want to bring children into this world. However I love to care for kids that are already born and have no choice
I want kids. I think you have to be so utterly filled with self loathing and pessimism to have the views that you do (not an insult, just an observation). Life is wonderful, I've had a lot of hard times but I've had good times too. Your argument hinges on ignoring all the good things and only focusing on the bad. That's a poor argument in my opinion, not unlike some one who only acknowledges good things and pretends like bad things never happen (its unbalanced and in my opinion disfunctional). I don't think people who don't want kids shouldn't have them, but to wish for all life to cease to exist because their happens to be pain as well as pleasure, sorrow as well as joy is just a bit extreme in my opinion.
I think too many people have the mindset of nothing's ever gonna go wrong, everything is just gonna always be fine and then the unexpected and worst things did eventually happen in their lifetime, including their own kid (s). They're completely unprepared and ignore all of the bad completely.
But if they want to gamble with their emotions and somebody else's existence then so be it. I just don't see why not even test the waters first and adopt somebody else first and see if being a parent is really something they absolutely want and then later on somehow, let's say within 3 to 5 years as an example, if things just didn't work out, they can then at least they're still able to undo, rewind, reverse, and take back their action and decision, such as send the kid back to the place they got them from, compared to biological as that's a one time decision and action and one can not simply taken back, reversed and undone if they simply aren't satisfied or happened with their results.
There is simply no warranty and no "satisfaction guaranteed" that comes with bringing another person into existence. You are taking chances and just hoping it all turns out to be fine and hoping nothing would ever possibly go wrong. The only thing somebody might be able to do is just buy some life insurance should anything serious ever go wrong, but that is about all that they can possibly do.
I merely look at is as does another person absolutely have to be born and brought into existence and put at risk of harm, suffering, miseries and even further unhappiness? Or can it simply just be left as it already is where they're never conceived, and since there's already plenty of other kids that are already here in world, already existing or in existence that are in need of somebody to take care of them and adopt them.
As for "never conceived", I do not count abortion for this as to me "technically" somebody is still brought into existence even though they are inside somebody else's body.
Also if somebody is never conceived nor born, the so called "good" things wouldn't exactly nor possibly ever matter at all to them, as there really is no them at all, unless you count reproductive cells like sperm and egg cells as "them". It simply does not apply to them. They completely unaffected by BOTH "good" and "bad". Unlike for somebody that is already in existence and existing here in this world currently.
Not at all, its just realizing that something going wrong isn't the end of the world. I got a skinned knee as a child, does that mean I should kill myself to avoid such pain in the future? That's essentially what your arguing for and I think that's rather absurd. As I said, if you don't want kids that's fine but the rational behind it is what I think is an issue. Life is not that bad, I've experienced probably worse things then you and I still prefer being alive over being dead. So the issue I think isn't that they ignore the bad, we all know about the bad its pretty obvious that bad things happen, the issue is your ignoring all the good, you have created a world view where their is absolutely no joy, no pleasure of any kind. I think that's more of an issue here rather then people realizing that their are bad things but still appreciating life. As for your argument about it not mattering if they don't exist, by that rational it doesn't matter now. Why bother living? Why haven't you gone and killed yourself, after all it doesn't matter to you. You'll not exist so you won't care that your missing out on good things and you get to avoid all the bad things that the future holds for you. So why bother continuing living if that is the case?
Then you missed the point, it's not that they had existed and cease to exist, rather they had never existed at all in the very first place. Thus neither good nor bad would apply to them. That's what I meant by the good and bad wouldn't apply nor matter to somebody that is not ever conceived. If somebody already exist and currently exist, then good or bad applies since they're able to feel, think, etc. Then things would "matter" to them.
I look at is this way the next person born is also gonna die, suffer from pain, become ill, might become a victim of something horrible all simply for being in the wrong place in the wrong time over the course of their lifetime, all of the bad, etc.
So if you're somebody okay with those risks and possibilities of another person having to go through any and all of that, then so be it.
I look at it as why involve somebody else new? They have no need to be added into this world. They have no need to be involved into something they can't possibly volunteer willingly and sign up for. The catch and consequences, yea, if one is the last child in their family line and blah blah, then that would be the very end of one's own bloodline or whatever, but that's only if one believes continuation of that is of so much importance or any importance at all to them. Depends on what they believe or see is most important to them.
You didn't get the point when you said "you'll not exist", that does not apply to somebody that's already alive and here and then have to die some day and "not exist", because that's not exist anymore RATHER than NEVER EXISTED OR CONCEIVED AT ALL in the very first place.
I didn't miss the point, I'm saying your point is incorrect. If nothing matters then existing or not existing doesn't matter. If pain is so unbearable that life is a burden then it must be a burden. What your arguing is that its such a burden that we shouldn't bring any new life into the world BUT its not such a burden that you personally would want to give it up. So which one is it? Is it a burden that we need to rid ourselves of OR is it not? Its one or the other, currently your trying to argue both even though they are mutually exclusive.
To not give that burden onto somebody new that didn't consent to it, asked for it, nor need it. You're free to have kids if you want, that's none of my business nor what I can control either way. But by doing so you've enabled the risks for somebody else newly added into the world, stuff beyond your control can and will happen, INCLUDING the bad and horrible things that can happen over the entire course of your own child (ren)'s lifetime.
I hope you understand that part clearly and know what you are getting yourself into. I'm sure all those that only focus, or focus mainly on the good things and how they would eventually turn out to be ignored pretty much all of the possible bad things that could happen. And then when it finally happens, they're completely caught off guard and unprepared for it. Please consider buying life insurance, as that's about all one can really do should anything ever do go wrong unexpectedly. At least I'd give them credit for being aware of risks involved and took some measures but that's about all they could do. Losing one's own child (ren) is not the same as losing something that is tangible and replaceable, which is why I find it to be a very huge gamble.
And having biological children is something you cannot simply rewind, undo, take back if the outcome and results are not favorable or desirable. It's not like a product one bought and then is unsatisfied with the results one can then simply return it for a refund, or exchange it, etc. You're also making it possible to be disappointed and dissatisfied with whatever the results or outcome will be eventually. And that's also outside of your control. Compared to as where someone could try and adopt first. To test the waters and see if things would actually even work out, and whether parenting is even something they'll absolutely enjoy and like, whether it would work out for them and if it didn't I suppose they can send the adopted kid back to wherever they got them from.
Obviously bad things will happen. But then so will good things. Either life matters or it doesn't. So either it doesn't matter in which case every person should just kill themselves or it does matter in which case we should appreciate the good and learn to grow from the bad. If you look bad things are actually what have created the society we have. People become better and stronger because of the bad things, not because of the good. What your arguing is basically that because you can lose you should never play the game. That to me is a rather absurd argument, of course you can lose, you can also win and if you don't you learn from it so you can win next time. What your arguing is that because your life is so awful, so horribly unbearable and is such a burden that you would never wish it upon any one else. I think that's completely wrong. I can't stop you from hating your existence nor can I understand it, but its your life to despise if you want. That's the crux of this matter you seem to think that you have it really bad, otherwise you wouldn't be arguing (several times (this is not the first time you have posted this question nor the first time we have had this discussion)) to spare people the burden of existing. I personally don't find it to be a burden at all, you clearly do, and that's the reason why you cannot understand my view point and I cannot understand yours.
But not "playing the game" isn't wrong either, somebody else is free to play if they want to, not every has to play the game nor need to play the game. Each to their own.
I'm not suggesting that they do have to play the game, you are. You are saying its immoral to bring a life into this world, you have made a judgment you have demanded that others not do what you think they should not do. What I am saying is your ARGUMENT is (horribly) flawed, not your actions. If you said you simply have no desire for children, fair enough. If you said you didn't want kids because you don't want to give up your personal freedoms, again, fair enough. But you didn't. You argued that its immoral to do so, that life is a burden and that by extension its wrong to bring life into the world. THAT is what I am arguing against. By that reasoning, again, you have no reason to live and in fact by that rational, that life is to much of a burden that existence is pain etc., killing some one is in fact the most benevolent act you can perform because you have relieved them of their burden. So if that is your rational then this is the inevitable logical conclusion. However I highly doubt you believe that so you are being dishonest with yourself. You also cannot prove that life is a burden as that is subjective as you point to murders for instance, yes they occur. However in the US your chances of being murdered is.005% i. e. negligible. Chances of being raped for a woman over her life time and assuming (wrongly) that its equivalent across the board i. e. their are not certain regions or groups that are more or less likely to be raped, her life time chances of being raped is less then 3%, again, negligible. Your chances of starving to death if we assume (wrongly) that all people have equal chances of doing so is.1%, negligible. If we look at the data we live in a time that is better, objectively, then any other time period in history with fewer wars, fewer murders, fewer deaths by disease, fewer deaths due to starvation, fewer infant deaths etc. and not by a small margin either, it is substantial.
So as I said, I'm not arguing that you have to have children, far from it, you are arguing that the rest of us shouldn't. That's what is being debated, you demanding that its a moral imperative that we stop producing life, which as I said, is incorrect, and you arguing that its because life is so unbearable, which again, I believe personally is incorrect and the data shows as much (we live better now then kings did even 100 years ago).
Those that do "play the game" are at a huger risk of an unacceptable, unfavorable, undesirable outcome that they cannot possibly control. Things might go well at first but it won't always go well later on. But I don't see why not just go all in then? Better buy life insurance and have all those things set up just in case, because that's about all one can really do.
One would be at risk of disappointments and unhappiness with those bad outcomes, and you can't change it, reverse it or take it back since it's a one time and done deal.
But people are gonna have what they desire to have and insist on it and overlook those things.
Those that refuse to play the game would have less to lose in the end. I look it at 'Add Zero Minus Zero Equals Zero'; nobody newly added into the game, nobody additionally added would eventually and inevitably subtracted from the game either.
And for those that do play it's 'Add One Minus One Equals Zero'; somebody newly added into the game, but inevitably and eventually they'll also be subtracted from the game. And in between there's all the undesirable things that they'll possibly have to go through, and depending upon how it goes, one has more at risk of losing and more to lose because one can't possible ensure a "good", "favorable", nor "desirable" outcome.
And then this same Add One Minus One equation repeats itself, perpetually over and over again at least until something cataclysmic happens and everything perishes. But only for those that want to keep playing this game over and over again. Even at some point a last member of a family may have a health condition or illness and they're infertile, and thus the first equation would apply involuntarily to them. Or some could be their last family member but decide to follow the crowd of childfree, get sterilized, or follow anti-natalism and decide to go in the same direction and crowd that refuses to play this kind of a game anymore.
Yes you have repeated that argument over and over and over again and it doesn't stop being wrong. Yes bad things could happen, so can good things and statistically good things are more common then bad things as I have already pointed out. Again, your argument is flawed, its claiming that since their are two equal possibilities and one of them is bad then we need to not try at all. By that rational we should absolutely try because of the equal possibility of good. So your argument contradicts itself before you even get into the fact that the bad things are insanely rare (single percentage point or less, rare). So you are wrong. Again, if you said you didn't want to give up your freedom that is a perfectly reasonable argument to make, if you said you don't particularly like kids that's a perfectly reasonable argument to make, arguing that you shouldn't have kids because something bad might happen, but so will a lot more good but where going to ignore that because I don't want to admit to that part, is not a valid argument. As for the lose one gain one, we have 7.5 billion people on the planet (and before you try to argue that point, no that is not over population, in fact we can fit all humans in an area the size of LA), we didn't get that number by "gain one lose one". Again, yes bad things happen, but they are rare and the family line doesn't die out that's not how genetics works. Family names die, but genetically we are intermingled so their is no real die off in the sense your suggesting. As for this happening, again it ignores the happiness that person experiences in their life so its invalid to begin with. As I have pointed out numerous times, by your rational you have absolutely zero reasons not to just kill yourself right now.
Life is misery life is pain life is an unbearable burden in your eyes so you have no reason to keep living, no reason to the point where your advocating for the genocide of our entire species and of life itself, so why if its all that terrible do you bother continuing on? Clearly their has never been a point in your life where you felt happy so why do you bother unless you believe their is value to your life and life itself? Also you never answered my other question, what pain have you experienced in your life that has brought you to this conclusion?
The difference is that there are more subtractions if there are going to be more additions. Fewer new people added, fewer additional people would otherwise have to endure and go through suffering and then die some day. But whatever each to their own. Since we're on opposite ends, you do you. And you don't have to agree with me, I'm merely saying that's how I look at it and feel about it.
The other things you said about freedom partially would count, but I look at it is we're all stuck here until our time is up one way or another. It wasn't an easy or comfy entrance nor would it be an easy nor comfy exit for any of us. It does sure help save money and even more frustrations and headaches if and when the outcome one's offspring (s) turned out to be unfavorable, undesirable and unacceptable.
I merely prevented the possibility for the next person through me, but I can't for anybody else unless they feel and think and agree with anti-natalism.
You're also being ridiculous about "advocating for the genocide of our entire species and of life itself".
How exactly is choosing to not add more people into this world genocide?
I feel it would have been best if the Earth simply stayed and remained in the same state like all of the other planets void of a biosphere throughout, which at one point the Earth was like them. Would have been best had it been left the way it was altogether instead, thus nothing "bad" ever could possibly have ever happened. Instead the final outcome is inevitably everything that breathes and live would die and cease to exist one way or another, and that is just absurd.
Because in those cases, no life had ever began at all on any of those planets without biospheres, and thus there won't be any kind or sort of annihilation event (s) in the future for those planets without a biosphere as they simply had nothing alive ever on them, nothing indigenous and alive nor suffers.
Of course its genocide, its the destruction of an entire species. Do you think we can live forever? If we stop having children we will eventually die out thus the removal of an entire generation (the definition of genocide) and thus the removal of an entire people as we need children to grow up and have more children in order for our species to survive. If we all do what you say (obviously that will NEVER happen, but lets say it does) then our species dies within a few generations. So yes you are advocating for the complete removal and destruction of our species and since your arguing that life is pain and the only good thing we can do is stop existing that also applies to all life thus you are advocating for the removal of all life (for its "benefit"). So their is nothing hyperbolic with my statement. Why do you refuse to answer my question though? This is the second time you have avoided it. What have you gone through that is so terrible that makes you feel like non existence is preferable then risk, even slightly, the pain that you have apparently experienced?
The inevitable result is we're all going to be gone one way or another eventually. Although that would only be increased exponentially because of how we humans are, we're better at destroying ourselves than any other species on the planet. The sun isn't gonna last forever either, and then there's all the pollution and destruction on this planet that came primarily from us humans that would only make things more miserable over time for all that is currently here and all that will be added into here. Not that I don't give them any credit for trying and trying to fix the damage being done, but the damage and harm is constant and ever growing, especially if our own numbers continue to increase exponentially. More resources are going to be drained exponentially, how far is it going to go? 9 billion people? 10 billion people? 15 billion people? 20 Billion people?
And if we went by how the universe itself would eventually come to a conclusion too, then everything that breathes and lives will inevitably die out one way or another eventually, doesn't even matter where you are and where you go.
I find that t's irrational to fear and think that adding more and new people into this world is actually going to somehow prevent us all from ever dying out completely, there are enough, maybe more than enough existential risks that could result in us being wiped out. It's my existential nihilism on all of this.
That's the final results for everything, nothing is going to last forever, not you, not me, not anybody or anything else. Although I kept repeating that the more you have and the more you have gained, tangible or otherwise in particular, then the more you'll have to lose. The less one has, the less one has to lose. Thus the whole additions and subtractions. If I add nobody else new into this, that means nobody else would have to suffer and die someday also, I won't have to deal with or worry about whatever the outcome would be for them. Perhaps you want to have more to lose?
You have avoided my question yet again so I can only imagine the answer is you have not actually suffered all that much. As such I can say that this is almost certainly your problem, the less you suffer the more you fear it, its like riding a bike you fear falling but once you do you learn from it and stop fearing it. You've never really suffered and so you are doomed to fear failure, fear pain and fear loss. I don't have that issue. As I said, you have plenty to gain, you refuse to acknowledge half the equation so of course your always going to be wrong (its inevitable). If their is no inherent meaning to existence that means their is meaning, because nothing exists to say otherwise, what we feel matters, does. Just like how life is meaningful to you hence you refusing to kill yourself even as you opine about the misery of existence, it matters to you deep down inside and you know it so you will never be able to truly argue the point your trying to make because your continued existence proves your point wrong (and to be perfectly clear I am not endorsing you killing yourself, merely stating that since you value your own life enough not to in order to escape this supposed suffering that it must therefore mean more to live then it does to escape pain). That is also why you keep repeating your same statement over and over again, because you have no real argument, you cannot argue against the truth so you just keep repeating that everything is terrible when its not. This will not change.
If your definition of "plenty to gain" is that I would end up saving more money by never dating, marrying, having kids, then I suppose you would be right. Things are gonna get more and more expensive over time either way.
I still see it all as absurdity, nothing last, the sun's gonna go red giant one day, maybe go supernova, thus the earth's not gonna last forever, nor would any of earth's indigenous inhabitant. And I am assuming the human species is even around by that time and haven't destroyed and annihilated themselves with overpopulation, massive and severe pollution, wars, etc. by then. And even if we somehow did manage to overcome all of that, then there's the universe itself coming to an end eventually, so good luck with trying to escape into outer space with space colonization, ships, stations, etc. Seems like a very desperate attempt of avoiding to die out and accept it for what it is, and that is if that ever became a reality.
Although it's been debated that the universe won't come to an end, I don't know, multiple theories of how the entire universe would come to an end eventually and inevitably are there.
And as I said before everybody and everything dies eventually one way or another, that is just the reality of it. Adding more and more people is merely postponing the inevitably result, and we are already at more than 7 billion pushing to 8 or 9 billion soon.
Not saying that nobody should try anymore, it's just that I feel it's all but futile attempts and irrational to believe and think that's actually going to prevent and stop the final result of where everything ceases to exists.
Pretty sure dinosaurs themselves had thought at one point we just gotta keep making more dinosaurs and add more dinosaurs into this world to ensure that there wouldn't be a world without any more dinosaurs. And we all know what happened to them.
why would saving money matter if everything is terrible? Overpopulation is not a thing (in fact we have negative population growth in every industrialized nation and the only continent where we are seeing growth is Africa which will plateu as all others did within the next twenty to thirty years or so). Pollution isn't an issue either, their is some bad ones (but that is mostly due to chemicals in water, the claim that global warming is catastrophic (despite having occurred hundreds of times before and at least five separate occasions just within the five million years humans (or human ancestors) have been around) is false and the claim that its man made is laughable (as scientifically speaking their is no evidence to back that at all. Also warming is a very good thing, its the ice ages that kill off life, the warming spreads it which should be a no brainer (80% of biodiversity exists within the equatorial region i. e. the hottest part of our planet)). Wars are less common now then ever before so that isn't even an issue either. As for the universe coming to an end, we actually don't know that (and if you look at many so called theories of our universe they are all pretty flawed). As for the "futility", that may be the case but then that only applies if your end goal is avoiding the finish line, its entirely possible that goal isn't to out last the game but to play it. But again, if nothing matters then anything you want matters because their is nothing to tell you otherwise. But again, you will never change your mind even though you know your wrong because again, if that was the case you would have ended your life, you wouldn't argue that saving your money would matter or saving your time (all of which are utterly devoid of any meaning to you and thus saving them would serve no purpose what so ever).
If I knew I was wrong I would have married, dated and had kids long time ago. Which I won't ever bother to do as I know for certain I would regret those things more later with how I am. Thus I would be in the right. If you had done those things and they all turned out unfavorable and desirable you'd probably regret them much later and think back about all of this one day, imagine you married the wrong person and they screwed you over, and because with how the system currently is. And if you already had a kid with them, well good luck with that one too, hope you enjoy paying child support. And even if things turned out favorable at first, it may not always be that way forever either. In the video I've attached to this came from True Detective, and Rust Cohle is lamenting and regretting that maybe he really should have had a kid to begin with, as his own two year old daughter died in an accident. Pretty sure at first he thought everything is just gonna be fine, nothing would or could ever go wrong and by the time it finally happens and hits him, it's already too late, he can't go back and undo or reverse what he had already done. One would have more to regret when things just don't turn out to be favorable or desirable and that it is something one has no way of reversing or changing or undoing. Once somebody is brought into existence they are put at risk for harm and suffering one way or another. Those that choose never to bring anybody new into this had taken all measures to prevent such. Can't say the same for those that pursue sex and sleep around frequently or whatever. I'm in a forever celibate and abstinent state as I see no point in pursuing anybody.
And there are a limited number of resources on this planet, say what you want about climate change or whatever, those resources are gonna drained exponentially as the total number of people on the planet continue to increase, we are over 7 billion and heading towards 8 billion. It's not sustainable forever.
I don't like children. The population of this world is growing fast. And pollution, the future does not look bright, and I wouldn't want any child of mine to live in it.
Or perhaps you were born too soon. Maybe if you had been born in the 25th or 30th century and perhaps even on a space colony or in space at that time period.
Whatever you want to do to fill the void and emptiness in your life bro. Did you read through what I said above? Or watched any of the videos above? Quotes too? All we can do is lie to ourselves again and again, ultimately NOTHING is ever fulfilled, and ultimately this is a world in which NOTHING is solved. All we can really do is figure out what we want to do to pass the time here with whatever time that we got left as it really ain't a whole lot, and then inevitably our time will be up.
Yeah, I read it, and I also watched a fuck tonne of videos after that. NOTHING we do matters. I might as well go out and rape a baby, and choke myself on my own dick, because it won't matter in the end... but I'm not going to do that, because I have somthing of a conscience.
We can all just wait here, raise a glass of beer, wait a while and just see what happens. We're probably gonna be all tired of it all to tired to give a fuck to try anymore anyhow and anyway.
I was not happy as a kid, I was not happy as a teen, I'm barely happy as an adult so I don't see the point of bringing someone into this world for him to go through what I went through.
I'm surprised how many people in this thread don't want kids just because of selfishness though (even though they hide it behind different "reasons" that just scream the same thing : "I don't want my life or body to change for taking care of someone else")
@Shoenron I always find the selfishness arguments redundant and irrelevant. It's all entirely subjective. Ultimately, nobody needs to be born or needs to exist. Somebody else made that decision and thus some people realized that they did not asked to come here into this world and did not ask to be born and isn't wholly happy about it find themselves stuck here until their time is up. Thus we refuse to repeat the process and risk that possibility for someone new.
I'm too selfish for all of that. I have my goals and having kids would crush those goals. I don't dislike kids its just that my priorities lie elsewhere.
They take so much time away from you and as well as a huge drain on your own financial resources, as if it isn't hard enough to provide for one person and take care of yourself already. Everything's going up, up, up, and further up. Everything from bills, rent, and pretty much all necessities. It's not like way back in the days of when things were more affordable and a world that is less populated too.
I hate having people forced and pressured to have children. It defeats the purpose of wanting children plus why do we need more children if the world is populated enough already?
@BraveHeart97 Just because people pressure others, it doesn't mean everyone has to (nor will they) conform and "fit in", one can always choose to not conform and just do what everybody else is doing or has done all just to "fit in".
Because from first hand experience you can never protect a child, no matter what. And if anyone ever hurt mine, I would kill a bitch. This world is messed up. I enjoy my financial freedom way too much. Being a teenager , worrying about drugs, bullying, etc. No thanks, I would not do well. To each their own, people who do have balls. I'll remain selfish.
Although as dumb as this souds.. I can say If I loved someone deeply, got pregnant, and they died or some shi, I'd keep the child.
@BraveHeart97 Why would that be sad? More people born only equals to more people exposed to harm and suffering and then die eventually, especially with the way how our world is now: overpopulated and greatly polluted, economic problems, people struggling to support themselves, etc. Less births would only equal less deaths, since everyone ever born has to die.
Yes, the world is overpopulated but that doesn’t mean I don’t wish to have children. I just find it unfair I won’t be able to just because of other people’s mistakes. Plus, the world is both evil and good. It is human nature that is flawed. Children must learn to be strong so that maybe one day they can change the world for the better.
@BraveHeart97 I think it would get better if the number of people choosing to either remain celibate and abstinent indefinitely INCREASES or the number of people that got a procedure done, such as getting a vasectomy and tying tubes INCREASES.
Less people added into this kind of a world altogether. There's already a big divide between the genders, etc. nowadays. Like some whole new gender war going on. Sometimes it makes me wonder if this would drastically help reduce the birth rate and help slow down overpopulation. We're over 7.5 billion the last we've checked, the more of us added here, the more pollution there will be. If you wish to have children, then help yourself, it's not my decision to make for you. I'm just telling my perception how I feel that it's better to save someone the troubles and miseries that they otherwise have to face and go through.
I have no one. I don't seek anyone at all. Don't see a point. I doubt there are many if any antinatalist couples in this world at all. I even asked a question here one time in regards to has anyone ever dated an anti-natalist before and whether they'd be willing to date someone that is an antinatalist. I think none of them would want to, probably because kids are such a deal breaker. Won't matter either way since I've long called it quits on all things in regards to dating, relationships, sex, etc. I reject all those things and find them all to be redundant to me as I know they CAN'T and WON'T make me feel "happy" or different about how my outlook on life, existence and reality altogether really is.
The priority changes... And I would have to concentrate more on the child. My life would become null (that's what I have seen...) I'm not ready to lose my freedom, my extra time and my career options.
@Angelina25 I was trying to find those that have the similar perspectives and perceptions about this matter and ARE STRICTLY against it for the same reasons and beliefs as I have.
Taking care of myself takes more than enough time, effort and money from me. Why would I have a kid? What's in it for me? Nothing!
Also, if I could choose to be born, I'D BE BORN! Why? Because despite all the negatives of life, I *exist* and can experience a lot of enjoyment. Getting a new video game I've been looking forward to, smoking weed, eating a good meal, having good sex, maybe actually finding love, etc all make the whole of life worth it.
I'd live forever if I could, or at least until I ended up trapped floating in space or something. There's so much to experience and enjoy!
Hedonism is the key to finding meaning in life for me. Look for yours, for if you spend your whole life being jaded then you've wasted your one shot at existence!
@Juxtapose You can only enjoy those things for as long as it lasts, and for as long as you are in good health and still able to. The way I see it any or all of those "pleasurable" or "good" things ONLY have that importance or matter and have any meaning solely because of all the negatives in the first place. Imagine if you had never experienced hunger, thirst, boredom, fatigue, sexual desires etc. then would any of those things you do or enjoy doing even mattered at all? Probably not. Because the state of never being born would meant never knowing and experiencing those negatives at all in the first place; never had experienced thirst, hunger, fatigue, boredom, being horny, then all those things wouldn't have their meaning, purpose, etc. Boredom is the biggest one, if you weren't bored first, then would you had bothered to do anything at all in the first place? It's a "cause and effect" thing. Or "reaction then action".
i dont like kids. but i hope that one day ill be able to leave somebody behind that will live a better life and will make more out of it than i did.
i never asked to be born but im grateful for such a big opportunity and ill do what i can to make the most out of it because life is dark but it is just as bright.
@CarpetDenim No. I rather never impose life upon someone else. Do you understand what Anti-Natalism is? I can't pick and choose to have never been born into this kind of a world filled with miseries and suffering, but I CAN choose to not put someone else through what I had gone through and experienced already, and most if it wasn't good things I had gone through. Or are you still confused about why I don't ever want kids of my own?
While I agree that nobody made a choice to be born or not, as such a thing is impossible, and yes the world is full of pain and injustice, I disagree that it be enough of a reason for me to not consider having children if I otherwise wanted them nor do I agree with the sentiment that it is regressive to not mourn a birth and I can't say I know anyone who agrees with those sentiments.
At least you are aware and made assessments as to what would make you suitable or right for the role of being someone's parents. I wonder if some people that had kids but then lost their own kid (s) to something horrible can fall into this kind of mental state and feel much regret that maybe it would have been better off if they had never taken chances with something they have very little to no control over what the outcome could be or may be? The video is from a TV show that the character that talks about how he feels about maybe we should have reconsidered about procreating because he was in that situation, his own daughter died in a horrible and tragic accident and he's filled with much grief and regrets over his own choice and decision to have brought her into the world.
@Alessus I mean does it ever make you wonder what goes through the minds of those that had tragically lost their own child completely and unexpectedly? Does seeing or recognizing things like that ever make you think about it and re-consider on whether it's something you would be able to handle and face if you were in the same situation as they are some day?
Not really no. That entire line of thinking is completely futile anyway, as it is both impossible to turn back time and their thoughts are more than likely to be considerably affected by grief, so whatever conclusion they come to is both entirely subjective and biased by their particular happenstance. As for how well I'd be able to take it is difficult to estimate at this point, but considering I'm a soldier by profession, so I'm both willing to die and kill others and having passed the psychological examinations which give some indication of how well I handle stressful situations required to become a soldier in the first place, I'd say I would be more resilient to such a thing happening than just your average person.
@JadeRavenheart See, now that is what I call being accountable and responsible, if you know for certain that it ain't going to be good, then why bother to risk it?
I am against all the hate and wars, I would want my kids to have a free and safe life and I guess that's not possible In this world. We had a paradies and made it into a hell :(
It just does not make sense to continue to add more people into this kind of a world. Optimists are deluded.
And as I've said earlier, NOBODY NEEDS TO BE BORN, and yet, some people insist that we need to or must create more people and add more people into this kind of a fucking absurd reality and world, overfuckingreacting like if some of us choose to not procreate will cause all of humankind to disappear and become extinct. And even if that were to ever fucking happen, then so what? Why does it matter if we're gonna die out or not?
The human species is a fucking disaster. Our species is chaotic, divided, destructive, selfish, greedy, need I go on?, etc. Our species had caused way more damage and harm compared to all of the "good" our species had done in the long run.
We may need our planet, but our planet do not need us and the earth probably would have been fine throughout had our "ancestors" died out instead of "evolved" to what we are now and how our species had became.
@moonpie89 Typical, but look on the bright side, if you have no kids of your own, nothing horrible and tragic can ever happen to them, you will never have to constantly worry that you might face such a reality or future some day.
Home > Society & Politics > Questions > How come you don't want kids? How do you know that having children is not for you? (ChildFree or Anti-Natalist)?
What Girls & Guys Said
Opinion
53Opinion
Half of my life gone just to think about it if it's safe or not n after half of my life I'm thinking in this dying society what good my child would brought by coming in this earth.
Your child can experience riding a bike, watching TV, falling in love, learning to drive. You don't have to have one although I believe it is better for a child to experience these things regardless of the suffering. Because if there were no suffering, there would be no joy to register. Life is worth it
@nuffsaid Bro, if there was no suffering, then joy won't even matter at all. You'd have no need for anything to enjoy at all if you weren't able to suffer at all in the first place.
Sorry. That was my point, I think I worded it wrong
@nuffsaid My point was an example if one was not feeling anything bad then they would have no need to feel anything "good" at all. But that is the state of nonexistence and not being born, one has no need for "joy" or "good" things since one isn't existing and experiencing any of the "bad" things. The "bad" things we feel and experience generate a demand and desire to seek "joy", "comfort" and "good" things. Otherwise, then those "good" things would just be completely redundant and have no purpose or meaning at all.
@opurba Exactly! There are no guarantees that there would be a good outcome for your child if you were to bring them here into this world. No guarantee that they themselves would actually bring something or anything good all for coming here into this world.
i can't have kids :p 100% infertile and no adoption either :p
GIVE ME A HIGH 5 FOR THAT BRO!
Being 100% infertile and not wanting kids would meant you hit the jackpot bro! You won't even need a vasectomy, but that's only necessary ti be considered if you want to live a very sexually active lifestyle where you frequently pick up ladies and hook up with them, etc. But if you are celibate, the it won't even matter at all! LOL
I don't do sex , waste of time. Boring.
@Spacebears Everything eventually becomes boring over time and when one does it too much. Some are hopelessly addicted to all kinds of shit because whatever it is that they are addicted to is what they want to feel, because it makes them feel "good" or feel "comfy".
Nope, I get pain still due to multiple surgeries from testicular cancer, I think sex is for those that are in a serious relationship or those who are married, there are people that just, have, sex to have sex, its pointless and stupid. Not many gentlemen left like myself
Call me a pessimist but I don't think we as world going in the right direction. So I don't want to bring children into this world. However I love to care for kids that are already born and have no choice
"However I love to care for kids that are already born and have no choice"
ABOUT TIME SOMEBODY SAYS THIS!
There's plenty of people already here. Why add more when one can just choose to adopt one instead.
Spot on.
I want kids. I think you have to be so utterly filled with self loathing and pessimism to have the views that you do (not an insult, just an observation). Life is wonderful, I've had a lot of hard times but I've had good times too. Your argument hinges on ignoring all the good things and only focusing on the bad. That's a poor argument in my opinion, not unlike some one who only acknowledges good things and pretends like bad things never happen (its unbalanced and in my opinion disfunctional). I don't think people who don't want kids shouldn't have them, but to wish for all life to cease to exist because their happens to be pain as well as pleasure, sorrow as well as joy is just a bit extreme in my opinion.
I think too many people have the mindset of nothing's ever gonna go wrong, everything is just gonna always be fine and then the unexpected and worst things did eventually happen in their lifetime, including their own kid (s). They're completely unprepared and ignore all of the bad completely.
But if they want to gamble with their emotions and somebody else's existence then so be it. I just don't see why not even test the waters first and adopt somebody else first and see if being a parent is really something they absolutely want and then later on somehow, let's say within 3 to 5 years as an example, if things just didn't work out, they can then at least they're still able to undo, rewind, reverse, and take back their action and decision, such as send the kid back to the place they got them from, compared to biological as that's a one time decision and action and one can not simply taken back, reversed and undone if they simply aren't satisfied or happened with their results.
There is simply no warranty and no "satisfaction guaranteed" that comes with bringing another person into existence. You are taking chances and just hoping it all turns out to be fine and hoping nothing would ever possibly go wrong. The only thing somebody might be able to do is just buy some life insurance should anything serious ever go wrong, but that is about all that they can possibly do.
I merely look at is as does another person absolutely have to be born and brought into existence and put at risk of harm, suffering, miseries and even further unhappiness? Or can it simply just be left as it already is where they're never conceived, and since there's already plenty of other kids that are already here in world, already existing or in existence that are in need of somebody to take care of them and adopt them.
As for "never conceived", I do not count abortion for this as to me "technically" somebody is still brought into existence even though they are inside somebody else's body.
Also if somebody is never conceived nor born, the so called "good" things wouldn't exactly nor possibly ever matter at all to them, as there really is no them at all, unless you count reproductive cells like sperm and egg cells as "them". It simply does not apply to them. They completely unaffected by BOTH "good" and "bad". Unlike for somebody that is already in existence and existing here in this world currently.
Not at all, its just realizing that something going wrong isn't the end of the world. I got a skinned knee as a child, does that mean I should kill myself to avoid such pain in the future? That's essentially what your arguing for and I think that's rather absurd. As I said, if you don't want kids that's fine but the rational behind it is what I think is an issue. Life is not that bad, I've experienced probably worse things then you and I still prefer being alive over being dead. So the issue I think isn't that they ignore the bad, we all know about the bad its pretty obvious that bad things happen, the issue is your ignoring all the good, you have created a world view where their is absolutely no joy, no pleasure of any kind. I think that's more of an issue here rather then people realizing that their are bad things but still appreciating life. As for your argument about it not mattering if they don't exist, by that rational it doesn't matter now. Why bother living? Why haven't you gone and killed yourself, after all it doesn't matter to you. You'll not exist so you won't care that your missing out on good things and you get to avoid all the bad things that the future holds for you. So why bother continuing living if that is the case?
Then you missed the point, it's not that they had existed and cease to exist, rather they had never existed at all in the very first place. Thus neither good nor bad would apply to them. That's what I meant by the good and bad wouldn't apply nor matter to somebody that is not ever conceived. If somebody already exist and currently exist, then good or bad applies since they're able to feel, think, etc. Then things would "matter" to them.
I look at is this way the next person born is also gonna die, suffer from pain, become ill, might become a victim of something horrible all simply for being in the wrong place in the wrong time over the course of their lifetime, all of the bad, etc.
So if you're somebody okay with those risks and possibilities of another person having to go through any and all of that, then so be it.
I look at it as why involve somebody else new? They have no need to be added into this world. They have no need to be involved into something they can't possibly volunteer willingly and sign up for. The catch and consequences, yea, if one is the last child in their family line and blah blah, then that would be the very end of one's own bloodline or whatever, but that's only if one believes continuation of that is of so much importance or any importance at all to them. Depends on what they believe or see is most important to them.
You didn't get the point when you said "you'll not exist", that does not apply to somebody that's already alive and here and then have to die some day and "not exist", because that's not exist anymore RATHER than NEVER EXISTED OR CONCEIVED AT ALL in the very first place.
I didn't miss the point, I'm saying your point is incorrect. If nothing matters then existing or not existing doesn't matter. If pain is so unbearable that life is a burden then it must be a burden. What your arguing is that its such a burden that we shouldn't bring any new life into the world BUT its not such a burden that you personally would want to give it up. So which one is it? Is it a burden that we need to rid ourselves of OR is it not? Its one or the other, currently your trying to argue both even though they are mutually exclusive.
To not give that burden onto somebody new that didn't consent to it, asked for it, nor need it. You're free to have kids if you want, that's none of my business nor what I can control either way. But by doing so you've enabled the risks for somebody else newly added into the world, stuff beyond your control can and will happen, INCLUDING the bad and horrible things that can happen over the entire course of your own child (ren)'s lifetime.
I hope you understand that part clearly and know what you are getting yourself into. I'm sure all those that only focus, or focus mainly on the good things and how they would eventually turn out to be ignored pretty much all of the possible bad things that could happen. And then when it finally happens, they're completely caught off guard and unprepared for it. Please consider buying life insurance, as that's about all one can really do should anything ever do go wrong unexpectedly. At least I'd give them credit for being aware of risks involved and took some measures but that's about all they could do. Losing one's own child (ren) is not the same as losing something that is tangible and replaceable, which is why I find it to be a very huge gamble.
And having biological children is something you cannot simply rewind, undo, take back if the outcome and results are not favorable or desirable. It's not like a product one bought and then is unsatisfied with the results one can then simply return it for a refund, or exchange it, etc. You're also making it possible to be disappointed and dissatisfied with whatever the results or outcome will be eventually. And that's also outside of your control. Compared to as where someone could try and adopt first. To test the waters and see if things would actually even work out, and whether parenting is even something they'll absolutely enjoy and like, whether it would work out for them and if it didn't I suppose they can send the adopted kid back to wherever they got them from.
Obviously bad things will happen. But then so will good things. Either life matters or it doesn't. So either it doesn't matter in which case every person should just kill themselves or it does matter in which case we should appreciate the good and learn to grow from the bad. If you look bad things are actually what have created the society we have. People become better and stronger because of the bad things, not because of the good. What your arguing is basically that because you can lose you should never play the game. That to me is a rather absurd argument, of course you can lose, you can also win and if you don't you learn from it so you can win next time. What your arguing is that because your life is so awful, so horribly unbearable and is such a burden that you would never wish it upon any one else. I think that's completely wrong. I can't stop you from hating your existence nor can I understand it, but its your life to despise if you want. That's the crux of this matter you seem to think that you have it really bad, otherwise you wouldn't be arguing (several times (this is not the first time you have posted this question nor the first time we have had this discussion)) to spare people the burden of existing. I personally don't find it to be a burden at all, you clearly do, and that's the reason why you cannot understand my view point and I cannot understand yours.
But not "playing the game" isn't wrong either, somebody else is free to play if they want to, not every has to play the game nor need to play the game. Each to their own.
I'm not suggesting that they do have to play the game, you are. You are saying its immoral to bring a life into this world, you have made a judgment you have demanded that others not do what you think they should not do. What I am saying is your ARGUMENT is (horribly) flawed, not your actions. If you said you simply have no desire for children, fair enough. If you said you didn't want kids because you don't want to give up your personal freedoms, again, fair enough. But you didn't. You argued that its immoral to do so, that life is a burden and that by extension its wrong to bring life into the world. THAT is what I am arguing against. By that reasoning, again, you have no reason to live and in fact by that rational, that life is to much of a burden that existence is pain etc., killing some one is in fact the most benevolent act you can perform because you have relieved them of their burden. So if that is your rational then this is the inevitable logical conclusion. However I highly doubt you believe that so you are being dishonest with yourself. You also cannot prove that life is a burden as that is subjective as you point to murders for instance, yes they occur. However in the US your chances of being murdered is.005% i. e. negligible. Chances of being raped for a woman over her life time and assuming (wrongly) that its equivalent across the board i. e. their are not certain regions or groups that are more or less likely to be raped, her life time chances of being raped is less then 3%, again, negligible. Your chances of starving to death if we assume (wrongly) that all people have equal chances of doing so is.1%, negligible. If we look at the data we live in a time that is better, objectively, then any other time period in history with fewer wars, fewer murders, fewer deaths by disease, fewer deaths due to starvation, fewer infant deaths etc. and not by a small margin either, it is substantial.
So as I said, I'm not arguing that you have to have children, far from it, you are arguing that the rest of us shouldn't. That's what is being debated, you demanding that its a moral imperative that we stop producing life, which as I said, is incorrect, and you arguing that its because life is so unbearable, which again, I believe personally is incorrect and the data shows as much (we live better now then kings did even 100 years ago).
Those that do "play the game" are at a huger risk of an unacceptable, unfavorable, undesirable outcome that they cannot possibly control. Things might go well at first but it won't always go well later on. But I don't see why not just go all in then? Better buy life insurance and have all those things set up just in case, because that's about all one can really do.
One would be at risk of disappointments and unhappiness with those bad outcomes, and you can't change it, reverse it or take it back since it's a one time and done deal.
But people are gonna have what they desire to have and insist on it and overlook those things.
Those that refuse to play the game would have less to lose in the end. I look it at 'Add Zero Minus Zero Equals Zero'; nobody newly added into the game, nobody additionally added would eventually and inevitably subtracted from the game either.
And for those that do play it's 'Add One Minus One Equals Zero'; somebody newly added into the game, but inevitably and eventually they'll also be subtracted from the game. And in between there's all the undesirable things that they'll possibly have to go through, and depending upon how it goes, one has more at risk of losing and more to lose because one can't possible ensure a "good", "favorable", nor "desirable" outcome.
And then this same Add One Minus One equation repeats itself, perpetually over and over again at least until something cataclysmic happens and everything perishes. But only for those that want to keep playing this game over and over again. Even at some point a last member of a family may have a health condition or illness and they're infertile, and thus the first equation would apply involuntarily to them. Or some could be their last family member but decide to follow the crowd of childfree, get sterilized, or follow anti-natalism and decide to go in the same direction and crowd that refuses to play this kind of a game anymore.
Yes you have repeated that argument over and over and over again and it doesn't stop being wrong. Yes bad things could happen, so can good things and statistically good things are more common then bad things as I have already pointed out. Again, your argument is flawed, its claiming that since their are two equal possibilities and one of them is bad then we need to not try at all. By that rational we should absolutely try because of the equal possibility of good. So your argument contradicts itself before you even get into the fact that the bad things are insanely rare (single percentage point or less, rare). So you are wrong. Again, if you said you didn't want to give up your freedom that is a perfectly reasonable argument to make, if you said you don't particularly like kids that's a perfectly reasonable argument to make, arguing that you shouldn't have kids because something bad might happen, but so will a lot more good but where going to ignore that because I don't want to admit to that part, is not a valid argument. As for the lose one gain one, we have 7.5 billion people on the planet (and before you try to argue that point, no that is not over population, in fact we can fit all humans in an area the size of LA), we didn't get that number by "gain one lose one". Again, yes bad things happen, but they are rare and the family line doesn't die out that's not how genetics works. Family names die, but genetically we are intermingled so their is no real die off in the sense your suggesting. As for this happening, again it ignores the happiness that person experiences in their life so its invalid to begin with. As I have pointed out numerous times, by your rational you have absolutely zero reasons not to just kill yourself right now.
Life is misery life is pain life is an unbearable burden in your eyes so you have no reason to keep living, no reason to the point where your advocating for the genocide of our entire species and of life itself, so why if its all that terrible do you bother continuing on? Clearly their has never been a point in your life where you felt happy so why do you bother unless you believe their is value to your life and life itself? Also you never answered my other question, what pain have you experienced in your life that has brought you to this conclusion?
The difference is that there are more subtractions if there are going to be more additions. Fewer new people added, fewer additional people would otherwise have to endure and go through suffering and then die some day. But whatever each to their own. Since we're on opposite ends, you do you. And you don't have to agree with me, I'm merely saying that's how I look at it and feel about it.
The other things you said about freedom partially would count, but I look at it is we're all stuck here until our time is up one way or another. It wasn't an easy or comfy entrance nor would it be an easy nor comfy exit for any of us. It does sure help save money and even more frustrations and headaches if and when the outcome one's offspring (s) turned out to be unfavorable, undesirable and unacceptable.
I merely prevented the possibility for the next person through me, but I can't for anybody else unless they feel and think and agree with anti-natalism.
You're also being ridiculous about "advocating for the genocide of our entire species and of life itself".
How exactly is choosing to not add more people into this world genocide?
I feel it would have been best if the Earth simply stayed and remained in the same state like all of the other planets void of a biosphere throughout, which at one point the Earth was like them. Would have been best had it been left the way it was altogether instead, thus nothing "bad" ever could possibly have ever happened. Instead the final outcome is inevitably everything that breathes and live would die and cease to exist one way or another, and that is just absurd.
Because in those cases, no life had ever began at all on any of those planets without biospheres, and thus there won't be any kind or sort of annihilation event (s) in the future for those planets without a biosphere as they simply had nothing alive ever on them, nothing indigenous and alive nor suffers.
Of course its genocide, its the destruction of an entire species. Do you think we can live forever? If we stop having children we will eventually die out thus the removal of an entire generation (the definition of genocide) and thus the removal of an entire people as we need children to grow up and have more children in order for our species to survive. If we all do what you say (obviously that will NEVER happen, but lets say it does) then our species dies within a few generations. So yes you are advocating for the complete removal and destruction of our species and since your arguing that life is pain and the only good thing we can do is stop existing that also applies to all life thus you are advocating for the removal of all life (for its "benefit"). So their is nothing hyperbolic with my statement. Why do you refuse to answer my question though? This is the second time you have avoided it. What have you gone through that is so terrible that makes you feel like non existence is preferable then risk, even slightly, the pain that you have apparently experienced?
The inevitable result is we're all going to be gone one way or another eventually. Although that would only be increased exponentially because of how we humans are, we're better at destroying ourselves than any other species on the planet. The sun isn't gonna last forever either, and then there's all the pollution and destruction on this planet that came primarily from us humans that would only make things more miserable over time for all that is currently here and all that will be added into here. Not that I don't give them any credit for trying and trying to fix the damage being done, but the damage and harm is constant and ever growing, especially if our own numbers continue to increase exponentially. More resources are going to be drained exponentially, how far is it going to go? 9 billion people? 10 billion people? 15 billion people? 20 Billion people?
And if we went by how the universe itself would eventually come to a conclusion too, then everything that breathes and lives will inevitably die out one way or another eventually, doesn't even matter where you are and where you go.
I find that t's irrational to fear and think that adding more and new people into this world is actually going to somehow prevent us all from ever dying out completely, there are enough, maybe more than enough existential risks that could result in us being wiped out. It's my existential nihilism on all of this.
That's the final results for everything, nothing is going to last forever, not you, not me, not anybody or anything else. Although I kept repeating that the more you have and the more you have gained, tangible or otherwise in particular, then the more you'll have to lose. The less one has, the less one has to lose. Thus the whole additions and subtractions. If I add nobody else new into this, that means nobody else would have to suffer and die someday also, I won't have to deal with or worry about whatever the outcome would be for them. Perhaps you want to have more to lose?
You have avoided my question yet again so I can only imagine the answer is you have not actually suffered all that much. As such I can say that this is almost certainly your problem, the less you suffer the more you fear it, its like riding a bike you fear falling but once you do you learn from it and stop fearing it. You've never really suffered and so you are doomed to fear failure, fear pain and fear loss. I don't have that issue. As I said, you have plenty to gain, you refuse to acknowledge half the equation so of course your always going to be wrong (its inevitable). If their is no inherent meaning to existence that means their is meaning, because nothing exists to say otherwise, what we feel matters, does. Just like how life is meaningful to you hence you refusing to kill yourself even as you opine about the misery of existence, it matters to you deep down inside and you know it so you will never be able to truly argue the point your trying to make because your continued existence proves your point wrong (and to be perfectly clear I am not endorsing you killing yourself, merely stating that since you value your own life enough not to in order to escape this supposed suffering that it must therefore mean more to live then it does to escape pain). That is also why you keep repeating your same statement over and over again, because you have no real argument, you cannot argue against the truth so you just keep repeating that everything is terrible when its not. This will not change.
If your definition of "plenty to gain" is that I would end up saving more money by never dating, marrying, having kids, then I suppose you would be right. Things are gonna get more and more expensive over time either way.
I still see it all as absurdity, nothing last, the sun's gonna go red giant one day, maybe go supernova, thus the earth's not gonna last forever, nor would any of earth's indigenous inhabitant. And I am assuming the human species is even around by that time and haven't destroyed and annihilated themselves with overpopulation, massive and severe pollution, wars, etc. by then. And even if we somehow did manage to overcome all of that, then there's the universe itself coming to an end eventually, so good luck with trying to escape into outer space with space colonization, ships, stations, etc. Seems like a very desperate attempt of avoiding to die out and accept it for what it is, and that is if that ever became a reality.
Although it's been debated that the universe won't come to an end, I don't know, multiple theories of how the entire universe would come to an end eventually and inevitably are there.
And as I said before everybody and everything dies eventually one way or another, that is just the reality of it. Adding more and more people is merely postponing the inevitably result, and we are already at more than 7 billion pushing to 8 or 9 billion soon.
Not saying that nobody should try anymore, it's just that I feel it's all but futile attempts and irrational to believe and think that's actually going to prevent and stop the final result of where everything ceases to exists.
Pretty sure dinosaurs themselves had thought at one point we just gotta keep making more dinosaurs and add more dinosaurs into this world to ensure that there wouldn't be a world without any more dinosaurs. And we all know what happened to them.
why would saving money matter if everything is terrible? Overpopulation is not a thing (in fact we have negative population growth in every industrialized nation and the only continent where we are seeing growth is Africa which will plateu as all others did within the next twenty to thirty years or so). Pollution isn't an issue either, their is some bad ones (but that is mostly due to chemicals in water, the claim that global warming is catastrophic (despite having occurred hundreds of times before and at least five separate occasions just within the five million years humans (or human ancestors) have been around) is false and the claim that its man made is laughable (as scientifically speaking their is no evidence to back that at all. Also warming is a very good thing, its the ice ages that kill off life, the warming spreads it which should be a no brainer (80% of biodiversity exists within the equatorial region i. e. the hottest part of our planet)). Wars are less common now then ever before so that isn't even an issue either. As for the universe coming to an end, we actually don't know that (and if you look at many so called theories of our universe they are all pretty flawed). As for the "futility", that may be the case but then that only applies if your end goal is avoiding the finish line, its entirely possible that goal isn't to out last the game but to play it. But again, if nothing matters then anything you want matters because their is nothing to tell you otherwise. But again, you will never change your mind even though you know your wrong because again, if that was the case you would have ended your life, you wouldn't argue that saving your money would matter or saving your time (all of which are utterly devoid of any meaning to you and thus saving them would serve no purpose what so ever).
If I knew I was wrong I would have married, dated and had kids long time ago. Which I won't ever bother to do as I know for certain I would regret those things more later with how I am. Thus I would be in the right. If you had done those things and they all turned out unfavorable and desirable you'd probably regret them much later and think back about all of this one day, imagine you married the wrong person and they screwed you over, and because with how the system currently is. And if you already had a kid with them, well good luck with that one too, hope you enjoy paying child support. And even if things turned out favorable at first, it may not always be that way forever either. In the video I've attached to this came from True Detective, and Rust Cohle is lamenting and regretting that maybe he really should have had a kid to begin with, as his own two year old daughter died in an accident. Pretty sure at first he thought everything is just gonna be fine, nothing would or could ever go wrong and by the time it finally happens and hits him, it's already too late, he can't go back and undo or reverse what he had already done. One would have more to regret when things just don't turn out to be favorable or desirable and that it is something one has no way of reversing or changing or undoing. Once somebody is brought into existence they are put at risk for harm and suffering one way or another. Those that choose never to bring anybody new into this had taken all measures to prevent such. Can't say the same for those that pursue sex and sleep around frequently or whatever. I'm in a forever celibate and abstinent state as I see no point in pursuing anybody.
And there are a limited number of resources on this planet, say what you want about climate change or whatever, those resources are gonna drained exponentially as the total number of people on the planet continue to increase, we are over 7 billion and heading towards 8 billion. It's not sustainable forever.
I don't like children. The population of this world is growing fast. And pollution, the future does not look bright, and I wouldn't want any child of mine to live in it.
There are simply no guarantees of any "good", "favorable", or even an "acceptable" outcomes for them.
Excatly. I was born too late, if I was born further back in the past, I might have wanted a child
Or perhaps you were born too soon. Maybe if you had been born in the 25th or 30th century and perhaps even on a space colony or in space at that time period.
That would be awesome
Too bad it just didn't happen we didn't get to pick and choose.
Yeah... but no use in being sad about that. I'm here to die, so it's about time I do some insane shit.
Like what exactly?
Wait until the weekend, get piss drunk and fuck two girls and a guy, or something like that. I don't know.
Whatever you want to do to fill the void and emptiness in your life bro. Did you read through what I said above? Or watched any of the videos above? Quotes too? All we can do is lie to ourselves again and again, ultimately NOTHING is ever fulfilled, and ultimately this is a world in which NOTHING is solved. All we can really do is figure out what we want to do to pass the time here with whatever time that we got left as it really ain't a whole lot, and then inevitably our time will be up.
Yeah, I read it, and I also watched a fuck tonne of videos after that. NOTHING we do matters. I might as well go out and rape a baby, and choke myself on my own dick, because it won't matter in the end... but I'm not going to do that, because I have somthing of a conscience.
We can all just wait here, raise a glass of beer, wait a while and just see what happens. We're probably gonna be all tired of it all to tired to give a fuck to try anymore anyhow and anyway.
I was not happy as a kid, I was not happy as a teen, I'm barely happy as an adult so I don't see the point of bringing someone into this world for him to go through what I went through.
@Shoenron Welcome to the club buddy!
I'm surprised how many people in this thread don't want kids just because of selfishness though (even though they hide it behind different "reasons" that just scream the same thing : "I don't want my life or body to change for taking care of someone else")
@Shoenron I always find the selfishness arguments redundant and irrelevant. It's all entirely subjective. Ultimately, nobody needs to be born or needs to exist. Somebody else made that decision and thus some people realized that they did not asked to come here into this world and did not ask to be born and isn't wholly happy about it find themselves stuck here until their time is up. Thus we refuse to repeat the process and risk that possibility for someone new.
If you find it irrelevant you probably did not read what I wrote carefully enough, because it's totally compatible with what you said after.
I'm too selfish for all of that. I have my goals and having kids would crush those goals. I don't dislike kids its just that my priorities lie elsewhere.
They take so much time away from you and as well as a huge drain on your own financial resources, as if it isn't hard enough to provide for one person and take care of yourself already. Everything's going up, up, up, and further up. Everything from bills, rent, and pretty much all necessities. It's not like way back in the days of when things were more affordable and a world that is less populated too.
I hate having people forced and pressured to have children. It defeats the purpose of wanting children plus why do we need more children if the world is populated enough already?
@BraveHeart97 Just because people pressure others, it doesn't mean everyone has to (nor will they) conform and "fit in", one can always choose to not conform and just do what everybody else is doing or has done all just to "fit in".
Because from first hand experience you can never protect a child, no matter what. And if anyone ever hurt mine, I would kill a bitch. This world is messed up. I enjoy my financial freedom way too much. Being a teenager , worrying about drugs, bullying, etc. No thanks, I would not do well. To each their own, people who do have balls. I'll remain selfish.
Although as dumb as this souds.. I can say If I loved someone deeply, got pregnant, and they died or some shi, I'd keep the child.
That’s sad to hear, I think with your experience, you would’ve been a great mother.
@BraveHeart97 Why would that be sad? More people born only equals to more people exposed to harm and suffering and then die eventually, especially with the way how our world is now: overpopulated and greatly polluted, economic problems, people struggling to support themselves, etc. Less births would only equal less deaths, since everyone ever born has to die.
Yes, the world is overpopulated but that doesn’t mean I don’t wish to have children. I just find it unfair I won’t be able to just because of other people’s mistakes. Plus, the world is both evil and good. It is human nature that is flawed. Children must learn to be strong so that maybe one day they can change the world for the better.
@BraveHeart97 I think it would get better if the number of people choosing to either remain celibate and abstinent indefinitely INCREASES or the number of people that got a procedure done, such as getting a vasectomy and tying tubes INCREASES.
Less people added into this kind of a world altogether. There's already a big divide between the genders, etc. nowadays. Like some whole new gender war going on. Sometimes it makes me wonder if this would drastically help reduce the birth rate and help slow down overpopulation. We're over 7.5 billion the last we've checked, the more of us added here, the more pollution there will be. If you wish to have children, then help yourself, it's not my decision to make for you. I'm just telling my perception how I feel that it's better to save someone the troubles and miseries that they otherwise have to face and go through.
I wonder if you'll feel the same in ten years time. Maybe you will, maybe not.
Yup, age displayed isn't my real age.
Got a woman who shares your lifestyle?
I have no one. I don't seek anyone at all. Don't see a point. I doubt there are many if any antinatalist couples in this world at all. I even asked a question here one time in regards to has anyone ever dated an anti-natalist before and whether they'd be willing to date someone that is an antinatalist. I think none of them would want to, probably because kids are such a deal breaker. Won't matter either way since I've long called it quits on all things in regards to dating, relationships, sex, etc. I reject all those things and find them all to be redundant to me as I know they CAN'T and WON'T make me feel "happy" or different about how my outlook on life, existence and reality altogether really is.
Well, if that truly works for you, you may just have found the perfect lifestyle.
At least I'll have my own peace and quiet, or at least I hope so.
The priority changes... And I would have to concentrate more on the child. My life would become null (that's what I have seen...)
I'm not ready to lose my freedom, my extra time and my career options.
But yes, I'm not strictly against it. Maybe when I'm well settled in life.
@Angelina25 I was trying to find those that have the similar perspectives and perceptions about this matter and ARE STRICTLY against it for the same reasons and beliefs as I have.
Taking care of myself takes more than enough time, effort and money from me. Why would I have a kid? What's in it for me? Nothing!
Also, if I could choose to be born, I'D BE BORN! Why? Because despite all the negatives of life, I *exist* and can experience a lot of enjoyment. Getting a new video game I've been looking forward to, smoking weed, eating a good meal, having good sex, maybe actually finding love, etc all make the whole of life worth it.
I'd live forever if I could, or at least until I ended up trapped floating in space or something. There's so much to experience and enjoy!
Hedonism is the key to finding meaning in life for me. Look for yours, for if you spend your whole life being jaded then you've wasted your one shot at existence!
@Juxtapose You can only enjoy those things for as long as it lasts, and for as long as you are in good health and still able to. The way I see it any or all of those "pleasurable" or "good" things ONLY have that importance or matter and have any meaning solely because of all the negatives in the first place. Imagine if you had never experienced hunger, thirst, boredom, fatigue, sexual desires etc. then would any of those things you do or enjoy doing even mattered at all? Probably not. Because the state of never being born would meant never knowing and experiencing those negatives at all in the first place; never had experienced thirst, hunger, fatigue, boredom, being horny, then all those things wouldn't have their meaning, purpose, etc. Boredom is the biggest one, if you weren't bored first, then would you had bothered to do anything at all in the first place? It's a "cause and effect" thing. Or "reaction then action".
Might as well enjoy it while we can then, right?
i dont like kids.
but i hope that one day ill be able to leave somebody behind that will live a better life and will make more out of it than i did.
i never asked to be born but im grateful for such a big opportunity and ill do what i can to make the most out of it because life is dark but it is just as bright.
I don't have the strength to raise a child/children like I the way I believe they should. I'm talking about the guidelines.
So you want to take the potential for life away from all the people that are content with being alive?
@CarpetDenim No. I rather never impose life upon someone else. Do you understand what Anti-Natalism is? I can't pick and choose to have never been born into this kind of a world filled with miseries and suffering, but I CAN choose to not put someone else through what I had gone through and experienced already, and most if it wasn't good things I had gone through. Or are you still confused about why I don't ever want kids of my own?
@carpetdenim?
@carpetdenim Does that make things more clearer to understand?
While I have many reasons, I think the main one is that I do not consider myself to be suitable enough as a father.
What about the reasons I had explained, can you relate to any of those? Or do you know anybody else that sees things that way @Alessus?
While I agree that nobody made a choice to be born or not, as such a thing is impossible, and yes the world is full of pain and injustice, I disagree that it be enough of a reason for me to not consider having children if I otherwise wanted them nor do I agree with the sentiment that it is regressive to not mourn a birth and I can't say I know anyone who agrees with those sentiments.
At least you are aware and made assessments as to what would make you suitable or right for the role of being someone's parents. I wonder if some people that had kids but then lost their own kid (s) to something horrible can fall into this kind of mental state and feel much regret that maybe it would have been better off if they had never taken chances with something they have very little to no control over what the outcome could be or may be? The video is from a TV show that the character that talks about how he feels about maybe we should have reconsidered about procreating because he was in that situation, his own daughter died in a horrible and tragic accident and he's filled with much grief and regrets over his own choice and decision to have brought her into the world.
@Alessus I mean does it ever make you wonder what goes through the minds of those that had tragically lost their own child completely and unexpectedly? Does seeing or recognizing things like that ever make you think about it and re-consider on whether it's something you would be able to handle and face if you were in the same situation as they are some day?
Not really no. That entire line of thinking is completely futile anyway, as it is both impossible to turn back time and their thoughts are more than likely to be considerably affected by grief, so whatever conclusion they come to is both entirely subjective and biased by their particular happenstance. As for how well I'd be able to take it is difficult to estimate at this point, but considering I'm a soldier by profession, so I'm both willing to die and kill others and having passed the psychological examinations which give some indication of how well I handle stressful situations required to become a soldier in the first place, I'd say I would be more resilient to such a thing happening than just your average person.
I've seen too many failed parenting strategies, and I don't want to mess up a child for life
@JadeRavenheart See, now that is what I call being accountable and responsible, if you know for certain that it ain't going to be good, then why bother to risk it?
This lady really gets it! :D
@Unit1 EXACTLY BRO!
I simply don't like kids and I don't like this world. I think we are already too much people
Indeed. Last I've checked we're over 7.5 Billion people on this planet.
@Seppelson So what exactly is it that you don't like about this world? Do you agree on how fucking absurd it all really is?
I am against all the hate and wars, I would want my kids to have a free and safe life and I guess that's not possible In this world. We had a paradies and made it into a hell :(
Yes I agree. It's all realy absurd
I guess 60 millions are enough
It just does not make sense to continue to add more people into this kind of a world. Optimists are deluded.
And as I've said earlier, NOBODY NEEDS TO BE BORN, and yet, some people insist that we need to or must create more people and add more people into this kind of a fucking absurd reality and world, overfuckingreacting like if some of us choose to not procreate will cause all of humankind to disappear and become extinct. And even if that were to ever fucking happen, then so what? Why does it matter if we're gonna die out or not?
The human species is a fucking disaster. Our species is chaotic, divided, destructive, selfish, greedy, need I go on?, etc. Our species had caused way more damage and harm compared to all of the "good" our species had done in the long run.
We may need our planet, but our planet do not need us and the earth probably would have been fine throughout had our "ancestors" died out instead of "evolved" to what we are now and how our species had became.
Kids are annoying little creatures. Why would I willingly sign up for a constant headache.
@moonpie89 Typical, but look on the bright side, if you have no kids of your own, nothing horrible and tragic can ever happen to them, you will never have to constantly worry that you might face such a reality or future some day.
I think you are the smartest girl on the planet because I think the exact same thing lol.
Wait till your hormones make it seem worthwhile
@moonpie89 Would you ever consider tying your tubes? Or would you rather biy and use regular birth control on a constant and regular basis?
I don't have the urge to pass on my genes. The pressure to live is very demanding.