It's not about "proving" anything. I believe that nobody wins unless everybody wins. Feminism simply allows people to be judged more by their humanity than their gender.
And yet the opposite seems to be happening here in 2019, since men can be blamed for all sorts of things under the guise of "toxic masculinity". Thanks to feminism, some employers are actively hiring less men and more women because some Human Resources intern threatened to sue the executive board for "not being inclusive enough". Of course, the *ideal* is that people be judge on character, not on gender or race. But people beating their chests about "inclusivity and diversity" (usually also feminists) are focused almost ENTIRELY on race, gender, and sexual orientation. If you're not a gay black woman, or a transgender Asian demisexual, then they don't want you around the workforce. Being a straight white man is, in these people's eyes, equivalent to being a black man in 1930s America. It's segregation in reverse.
(Please note: I'm not levelling this critique at you personally, and you're right on that either everybody wins or nobody wins. But not everyone in feminist movement is as level-headed and reasonable as you are. Maybe it's just this cultural tipping point we're at, where everyone wants to be offended by everything, and nothing is ever "woke" enough to satisfy the twitter mobs.)
p. s. despite the downvotes you're getting from guys on here, I actually agree with the first two parts of your statement, so upvoting on that basis. It can't be easy to defend something you're passionate about to a room full of people who have already decided you're wrong, so I respect the position you're taking even if I don't agree with parts of it.
@SomeGuyCalledTom Thank you. I am not out to get anyone and if someone who is innocent gets hurt in the name of feminism, I am truly sorry. Can people be too "woke"? Well of course. I think, too often, we look at the most outrageous things people say or do and attribute that to everyone who labels themselves a "feminist" or what have you. People have the absolute right to disagree with me or downvote me but I feel confident in my beliefs.
that sounds perfectly logical to me, people can overgeneralise a bit too much with hot button topics like this. A little rationality from both sides can go a long way.
That's just a benefit for women with extra steps. I can't take "consideration and understanding" to the bank, it doesn't DO anything for me, besides making me... "nicer"... maybe? I'm not saying men should NOT be considerate or understanding of women's legitimate issues. But the question specifically relates to how MEN BENEFIT personally from feminism.
You can disagree with me if you like, but something tells me from how your comment got ratio'd that I'm not the only guy who sees it that way.
Feminism should be the fight for equality but it seems some use that word for domination over men and other issues. So do i think equality helps men? i think so. There's just more opportunities on both sides with equality.
"feminism helps men too" Oh yes, by totally buggering marriage feminists have made it so now men can take jobs that give us just enough to be comfortable, by having to support a family, take on debt through mortgages, pursue any hobby we wish, just by being a bachelor and interacting or not with women as the mood takes them.
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+1 y
Edit there should be a 'not' before 'having to support a family, take on debt through mortgages'
It doesn't. Its meant to silence Men its meant to demean them. Nothing good comes from feminism. It was never meant for men only women to try and define roles in society.
It doesn't. Feminism has done its job in giving women equality like voting rights etc decades ago. Modern feminism can go back to hell. It's not needed anymore.
Never have I heard a feminist talk about male depression, suicide rates, inequality in family courts, preferential treatment in the prison system or male deaths in the workplace. Feminism is not beneficial for men, it never has been.
It doesn't. Men done epic poetry, paintings, sculptures, architecture but all their emotion and logic in it and then came the feminist saying the man ought to change because he is toxic. Feminists are people who advocate slave mentality as liberation. They are barbarians.
Oh! Wait! I forgot, we can't exactly do that because we'll be belittled endlessly, have counter protests at every event, and be called "male supremicists" by the media. This all happened in Australia already.
Nah we can. But men secretly are happy with the system of employment, the entertainment industry, our political structure etc. That’s why we never created a movement for equality. Right? Feminism was started and created by women. Not men.
Because we liked the status quo.
And I have some advice for you. Try being a man. Trying having integrity and some honesty about this.
And they are wrong. Feminism was not invented to "help" men.
We have to invent a movement to help men. But the truth again, is that we did not think we needed help. Because the systems in place, were to our liking. Mostly.
I know it wasn't invented to help men, old-timer, but if the majority says they are for equality, and feminists create TED TALKS saying "men need feminism", what am I actually gaining?
I whine against feminism from a neutral standpoint and from the experience of my problems being ignored while EVERYONE ELSE gets charities, days, and even months to support them.
Look, man, I get what you're trying to say here, you got good ideas and good intentions, but I myself am fed up with stuff like the lack of abused men's shelters, not enough representation for abused men, and no voice.
And I am extremely offended that feminists would claim that "toxic masculinity" is the main problem instead of their own ignorance, and that they are for equality but have not donated anything to men.
I'm not a political man, but I want only simple things out of the bountiful resources that our countries have on hand. I am extremely sorry for the pandering.
Well young whipper snapper. . . if you know feminism was not created to help men. . . why all the whining? Oh, so you actually admit to whining.
Wow. That's amazing. Well, at least you are honest.
But yeah, stay here and whine about how women don't create men's shelters. You don't seem to understand how hilarious you sound. Well. . . there is sad too. I uncertain as to which is worse.
But if men do not help themselves. . . they really can't complain about anyone else not helping them. It ain't like we lack the resources, dude. But well. . . it isn't like you practice that thing that men are supposed be good at. . .
Feminism disturbs a natural order that has existed for millennia around the world with brief interruptions in Rome, Babylon and Egypt that were symptomatic of the decomposition of those cultures. It is now participating in the decline of the West.
Well they can certainly be better mothers if they have a richer set of skills and knowledge. Making them better prepared to offer a valuable education for the next generation of men.
And i would like to point out those "feminists" who claims what egalitarian do. Saying feminism is about equality when there is a male counterpart to feminism and an opposite to equality. And do they think that calling feminism equality is fair not realizing that there actually demonstrating superiority meaning they still believe that we are living in a patriarchal world where women are still oppressed. How sad
Also I wanna point out those "feminists" who helps men are actually egalitarians calling themselves feminists. There's a big difference by the way. It's just like saying "I'm an MGTOW who helps women"
And you seem to think that feminism isn't in support of egalitarianism.
Egalitarianism is the philosophical sociological concept
Feminism is the movement.
Why feminism specifically over other isms? Because it was one of the early equality movements, it became somewhat cohesive, as a movement it promotes egalitarianism
And what is wrong with starting work toward egalitarianism with one of the traditionally most downtrodden groups?
The very fact that so many males get all squirmy about feminism shows right there that we still have a long way to go.
Ever wonder why no-one batts an eye when women wear traditionally male clothes, yet if a male dresses in traditionally female clothes everyone looses their mind?
Start by raising those most knocked down in society, everyone will have their situation improved.
I think I'd interpret that quote differently. If we help everyone have a better situation overall, it'll help the oppressed people too, no matter who they are.
@SwordShield if feminism as a movement were to be promoting actions that did not benefit women, these actions, by definition would not be egalitarian. Just as the actions that benefit women, benefit all of society. If they do not, then those actions should not be supported. Because they would be oppressive to one group or another or several.
@Boppy Sure, but why not lift the least privilidged to be more equal and everyone wins without leaving the positioning.
Or is the idea of letting others have theirs somehow reduces the value of your privilige? Letting others have rights doesn't reduce your own.
My idea was that if we help everyone hit certain benchmarks (not living in poverty, access to education), then we won't need to know which groups are worse off, as everyone at rock bottom gets lifted by the tide.
@Boppy Unaimed improvements are great and all... but you get far more bang for your buck by targeting improvements at where they are needed. Hit the problem with a scalpel instead of a meat mallet.
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It should but it dosent I also belive its a bad name for a now corrupt cause
It’s cancer to society men would be smart to avoid women
It's not about "proving" anything. I believe that nobody wins unless everybody wins. Feminism simply allows people to be judged more by their humanity than their gender.
And yet the opposite seems to be happening here in 2019, since men can be blamed for all sorts of things under the guise of "toxic masculinity". Thanks to feminism, some employers are actively hiring less men and more women because some Human Resources intern threatened to sue the executive board for "not being inclusive enough". Of course, the *ideal* is that people be judge on character, not on gender or race. But people beating their chests about "inclusivity and diversity" (usually also feminists) are focused almost ENTIRELY on race, gender, and sexual orientation. If you're not a gay black woman, or a transgender Asian demisexual, then they don't want you around the workforce. Being a straight white man is, in these people's eyes, equivalent to being a black man in 1930s America. It's segregation in reverse.
(Please note: I'm not levelling this critique at you personally, and you're right on that either everybody wins or nobody wins. But not everyone in feminist movement is as level-headed and reasonable as you are. Maybe it's just this cultural tipping point we're at, where everyone wants to be offended by everything, and nothing is ever "woke" enough to satisfy the twitter mobs.)
p. s. despite the downvotes you're getting from guys on here, I actually agree with the first two parts of your statement, so upvoting on that basis. It can't be easy to defend something you're passionate about to a room full of people who have already decided you're wrong, so I respect the position you're taking even if I don't agree with parts of it.
@SomeGuyCalledTom Thank you. I am not out to get anyone and if someone who is innocent gets hurt in the name of feminism, I am truly sorry. Can people be too "woke"? Well of course. I think, too often, we look at the most outrageous things people say or do and attribute that to everyone who labels themselves a "feminist" or what have you. People have the absolute right to disagree with me or downvote me but I feel confident in my beliefs.
that sounds perfectly logical to me, people can overgeneralise a bit too much with hot button topics like this. A little rationality from both sides can go a long way.
It helps men to be more considerate and understanding of women's feelings of wanting to be treated fairly.
That's just a benefit for women with extra steps. I can't take "consideration and understanding" to the bank, it doesn't DO anything for me, besides making me... "nicer"... maybe? I'm not saying men should NOT be considerate or understanding of women's legitimate issues. But the question specifically relates to how MEN BENEFIT personally from feminism.
You can disagree with me if you like, but something tells me from how your comment got ratio'd that I'm not the only guy who sees it that way.
women's feelings dictate how they are treated, if they want to be treated unequally.
Bruh, fight for our rights too, then we'll talk.
It's fucking 2019, you're treated fairly by the majority of young men.
Feminism should be the fight for equality but it seems some use that word for domination over men and other issues. So do i think equality helps men? i think so. There's just more opportunities on both sides with equality.
How tho?
How does equality help everyone? Is that what you're asking?
I misread, I'm beyond stupid.
"feminism helps men too"
Oh yes, by totally buggering marriage feminists have made it so now men can take jobs that give us just enough to be comfortable, by having to support a family, take on debt through mortgages, pursue any hobby we wish, just by being a bachelor and interacting or not with women as the mood takes them.
Edit there should be a 'not' before 'having to support a family, take on debt through mortgages'
It doesn't. Its meant to silence Men its meant to demean them. Nothing good comes from feminism.
It was never meant for men only women to try and define roles in society.
It doesn't. Feminism has done its job in giving women equality like voting rights etc decades ago. Modern feminism can go back to hell. It's not needed anymore.
Never have I heard a feminist talk about male depression, suicide rates, inequality in family courts, preferential treatment in the prison system or male deaths in the workplace. Feminism is not beneficial for men, it never has been.
It doesn't. Men done epic poetry, paintings, sculptures, architecture but all their emotion and logic in it and then came the feminist saying the man ought to change because he is toxic. Feminists are people who advocate slave mentality as liberation. They are barbarians.
Feminism helps soft, weak men but isn't beneficial to the rest of us. Feminists claiming it helps men is strategic bullshit talk.
Nope! But I am not understanding why it should. If men want to help men, men need to come up with an actual movement that helps men.
We are not really good at that kind of thing.
Yet feminism says it's for equality...
Oh! Wait! I forgot, we can't exactly do that because we'll be belittled endlessly, have counter protests at every event, and be called "male supremicists" by the media. This all happened in Australia already.
Nah we can. But men secretly are happy with the system of employment, the entertainment industry, our political structure etc. That’s why we never created a movement for equality. Right? Feminism was started and created by women. Not men.
Because we liked the status quo.
And I have some advice for you. Try being a man. Trying having integrity and some honesty about this.
I need you to elaborate on your statement "be a man". What do you actually mean?
And, I must elaborate on my question. This question was made because of the influx of TED TALK speeches that have said that "feminism helps men".
Oh, I created a take on "Masculine traits". You know. . . on that being a man thing.
What Are Masculine Traits? ↗
I was surprised that so many of you young fellas as GaG think being a man is supposed to be about whining about feminism. Weirdness.
And they are wrong. Feminism was not invented to "help" men.
We have to invent a movement to help men. But the truth again, is that we did not think we needed help. Because the systems in place, were to our liking. Mostly.
One for the Boys! Samuel L. Jackson's Charity Focuses on Men's Health Issues ↗
This organization "helps" men. Unfortunately, it was started by a woman. I know I would not start an organization to help women.
I know it wasn't invented to help men, old-timer, but if the majority says they are for equality, and feminists create TED TALKS saying "men need feminism", what am I actually gaining?
I whine against feminism from a neutral standpoint and from the experience of my problems being ignored while EVERYONE ELSE gets charities, days, and even months to support them.
Look, man, I get what you're trying to say here, you got good ideas and good intentions, but I myself am fed up with stuff like the lack of abused men's shelters, not enough representation for abused men, and no voice.
And I am extremely offended that feminists would claim that "toxic masculinity" is the main problem instead of their own ignorance, and that they are for equality but have not donated anything to men.
There is only believed to be TWO shelters in the USA for abused men, yet there is an agency for abused women in every single one of your states.
There's about 2 in Canada as well, all unfunded by the government.
I'm not a political man, but I want only simple things out of the bountiful resources that our countries have on hand. I am extremely sorry for the pandering.
Well young whipper snapper. . . if you know feminism was not created to help men. . . why all the whining? Oh, so you actually admit to whining.
Wow. That's amazing. Well, at least you are honest.
But yeah, stay here and whine about how women don't create men's shelters. You don't seem to understand how hilarious you sound. Well. . . there is sad too. I uncertain as to which is worse.
But if men do not help themselves. . . they really can't complain about anyone else not helping them. It ain't like we lack the resources, dude. But well. . . it isn't like you practice that thing that men are supposed be good at. . .
"logic".
.
Feminism disturbs a natural order that has existed for millennia around the world with brief interruptions in Rome, Babylon and Egypt that were symptomatic of the decomposition of those cultures. It is now participating in the decline of the West.
no feminism doesn't help men cos they hate men😒
It doesn't. In fact, feminism the way it looks like today is detrimental to both men and women; especially men.
Feminism helps men.
Sure it does.
and eating that extra spicy monster bean burrito when you have hemorrhoids also helps you.
I do hope that this is going against "toxic masculinity".
Well they can certainly be better mothers if they have a richer set of skills and knowledge. Making them better prepared to offer a valuable education for the next generation of men.
BAM, I proved it.
I'd say they believe that demonizing men is their way to help men. They're just gonna explain it with their feelings.
And i would like to point out those "feminists" who claims what egalitarian do. Saying feminism is about equality when there is a male counterpart to feminism and an opposite to equality. And do they think that calling feminism equality is fair not realizing that there actually demonstrating superiority meaning they still believe that we are living in a patriarchal world where women are still oppressed. How sad
Also I wanna point out those "feminists" who helps men are actually egalitarians calling themselves feminists. There's a big difference by the way. It's just like saying "I'm an MGTOW who helps women"
A rising tide floats all boats.
If we make the oppressed half of the population a better situation, we all win as a society and social species.
Is this satire?
Nope, not at all. Are you genuinely saying you don't believe that helping part of our society will help all of it?
Egalitarianism would be best suited for you.
And you seem to think that feminism isn't in support of egalitarianism.
Egalitarianism is the philosophical sociological concept
Feminism is the movement.
Why feminism specifically over other isms? Because it was one of the early equality movements, it became somewhat cohesive, as a movement it promotes egalitarianism
And what is wrong with starting work toward egalitarianism with one of the traditionally most downtrodden groups?
The very fact that so many males get all squirmy about feminism shows right there that we still have a long way to go.
Ever wonder why no-one batts an eye when women wear traditionally male clothes, yet if a male dresses in traditionally female clothes everyone looses their mind?
Start by raising those most knocked down in society, everyone will have their situation improved.
So, women are oppressed.
When has feminism, as a movement, actively accomplished something for the sake of equality, that would help men, but would not benefit women?
I think I'd interpret that quote differently. If we help everyone have a better situation overall, it'll help the oppressed people too, no matter who they are.
@SwordShield if feminism as a movement were to be promoting actions that did not benefit women, these actions, by definition would not be egalitarian. Just as the actions that benefit women, benefit all of society. If they do not, then those actions should not be supported. Because they would be oppressive to one group or another or several.
@Boppy Sure, but why not lift the least privilidged to be more equal and everyone wins without leaving the positioning.
Or is the idea of letting others have theirs somehow reduces the value of your privilige?
Letting others have rights doesn't reduce your own.
My idea was that if we help everyone hit certain benchmarks (not living in poverty, access to education), then we won't need to know which groups are worse off, as everyone at rock bottom gets lifted by the tide.
@Boppy just classifying by different groupings, but sure. Group by socio-economic. or educational level
Thing is you need to know who you are helping in some form or another, so you can give them the required help
Hah, ya got me. I think it's a more direct metric than the usual groups (gender, skin color). :p
I do read the quote as encouraging unaimed improvements, but hey, I'm not gonna get upset if you prefer a different interpretation.
@Boppy
Unaimed improvements are great and all... but you get far more bang for your buck by targeting improvements at where they are needed.
Hit the problem with a scalpel instead of a meat mallet.
I'm not saying the quote is gospel, it's just a quote.
I see the quote as meaning something different.
You have missed my point, entirely.