@WowwGirl I laugh because you beat me to it. "Liberals" are becoming tiresome- it's not really an attack on musicality but undermining the structures and traditions which uphold our system.
@JimboGB it's crazy
@bamesjond0069 I thought, I smelled testosterone.
Pointing out their hypocrisy is useless. Their arguments against authoritarianism only apply to right-wing authoritarianism. Their arguments for freedom only apply to the freedom for people to do what they want people to do. They choose their words carefully and it works to convince gullible people who can't see through their manipulative bullshit.
Aren't those a small group of idiots that do nothing more besides bitch on social media? Why does anyone gives value to what they say? How can they stop a man from acting manly?
Thanks for most helpful opinion
@ThisIsMyOpinion It’s the political panderers who give platforms to spew their propaganda.
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I completely agree with you. I see the abusive behavior being encouraged more and more these days which a lot of guys seem to think makes them seem more manly. And the “beta male” label that they put on guys who don’t act like this, is actually the type of guy I’m more attracted to.We need to distinguish between (like you said) positive masculinity and abusive.
I think there is a war on the positive side of masculinity too. Maybe this is a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
or you could just refer to them as "immature" and not make it some grand quest against an overarching ideology every valid complaint feminists seem to have at first could better be explained with "that particular guy was immature"
That’s true, and it would be important to fully explain why they are immature.
Agree 100%And when I say that here I get accused of being a chick posing as a dude XD
@WowwGirl When I talk about how certain aspects of masculinity are bad other guys accused me of being a girl posing as a guy :P
@Ad_Quid_Orator your jaw and rest of your phenotype says your not. That's crazy dude
@WowwGirl Well they might think I found a picture of some guy and am using it as my avatar LOL.
@Ad_Quid_Orator people are strange
What is unhealthy about masculinity? People define what masculinity means differently, and I really don't think women should have a say, as to what is and isn't masculine. + there are lots of toxic things women do. Shoudl men start defining what these things are for women and start telling women how they should act to fix it. Lol
I’m not interested in defining for men what masculinity is about. I am interested in helping women learn what behavior and mentality that done men display should be avoided as it will have negative impact on the relationship.
But the only men conflating masculinity with abusiveness are the men DOING the abuse. The rest of us already know its wrong, so what's to be gained by preaching to the converted?
There is a lot of bad behavior that is still being tolerated by others, so that’s a place to to start.
I do agree too
"unhealthy and abusive behavior"That's a universal "don't do" for anyone with empathy.
@Juxtapose You wake up completely naked in a strangers bed how do you react to the situation? ↗That's toxic not being a man
@WowwGirl wtf was with that question?
@Juxtapose he's a rapist It needs seen
He blocked men of course
@WowwGirl Is he convicted of rape?He at least fetishizes it openly. That's a fat yikes there, lol.
@Juxtapose telling me
So what "bad behaviour" in particular do you think is tangled up with society's concept of masculinity? Growing up I was taught that a man should be true to his word and treat people with respect. So I clearly never absorbed this bad behavior mentality you allude to. I know there are men out there who act overly macho, but so long as they're not hurting anyone i pretty much leave them to their own devices
SomeGuyCalledTom, I am thankful for men who grew up and advocate for healthy masculine behavior, and it sounds like that applies to you as well. Maybe I watch too many red pill YouTube channels. These men who call themselves the manosphere are mentoring each other on how men shouldn’t take women’s “no” for an answer because they believe women largely say no to test men or to not seem slutty. This is so not the case for the most of us ladies. One guy who admits to having intermittent explosive disorder often brags about how he demands sex on demand, disallowed his girlfriend to use social media, or to go to bars or clubs, demands access to her phone so he can look through it, puts tracking on her phone and in her car, and how HE dictates what she spends. They think that’s how all men should run their relationships with women, all the while refusing to marry any of these ladies. These ladies are supposed to submit to these demands and accept that they’ll never get a ring on it. There’s a whole convention of men advocating for this kind of behavior.
They rationalize all this behavior on female “Hypergamous” nature and how men are supposed to be dominant, and I see a lot of the same toxic ideals throughout this website too. And I’m not going to stand around and watch it happen.
I see. My issue with the manosphere guys is that the problems they describe are taken as blanket justification to treat women like shit and manipulate them. I actually agree with some aspects of their analysis of those problems. For example, hypergamy can indeed be an unspoken motivator for certain women to act out certain things, infidelity being the most notorious example. But I don't agree with what they consider the "solution" to such problems. The issue of hypergamy is a complex one, and needs to be accounted for in a proper multi-causal analysis of women's behavioural motivations. The problem is, these guys blow up the problem to make it seem like it applies to ALL women, ALL the time. But i see mo basis for such assumptions. What's more likely is that certain kinds of women are already predisposed to hypergamous behaviors (and the infidelity that follows), and so only those women are accounted for in the red pill community's analysis of "female nature". So it's a confirmation bias on their part. Women who DON'T fit into those hypergamous behavioral patterns are just discounted from the data set altogether. Or their behaviors will be dismissed on the presupposition that "oh they just haven't shown their hypergamous nature YET, but they will do so the moment it's advantageous to them". How can a woman defend herself from an accusation of a "crime" she has yet to commit, on the presumption that the crime is a predetermined event in the future? I'll always judge people on their actions, not on some flawed predictive model of what they theoretically MIGHT do in the future
@WowwGirl... do you think there should be a war on toxic femininity?
What would a woman know about masculinity?
@DeltaCharlieEcho Beats me, I never claimed to know everything about it. I just said the way some or we (As a collective) think of masculinity and femininity is bizarre.
The problem with this mentality is that if two men are having it out over something, the situation itself gets ignored entirely and BOTH sides are treated as being in the wrong
@FýrdracaDócincel that's only true In school , once you finish that horseshit system nobody gives you flack for defending yourself
@Killingmoon You know the law has something called "provocation," right?If that's not getting flack for defense, I don't know what is.
You see this?You wake up completely naked in a strangers bed how do you react to the situation? ↗
@Shamalien I am asking this around, maybe you can answer me. Why do you say there is a war on masculinity?I am genuinely asking. I mean sure there are some people who go on about it being toxic but aren't those a small group of idiots that do nothing more besides bitch on social media? Why does anyone gives value to what they say? How can they stop a man from acting manly?
If you were trying to make yourself sound like a nut job, congrats. You just succeeded!
The term "toxic masculinity" was actually coined by a men's rights organization... albeit a bunch of weirdos, but it's definitely not meant to hate on men.
@WhistleForTheChoir Did not know that. Either way, that argument is commonly used by radical feminists to spew hate.
The word was actually invented to refer to the way Macho Culture can affect males negatively, most people I have seen use it use it to refer to stuff like boys getting beaten up for not being masculine enough in school
@WhistleForTheChoir That's not true at all, it was coined by the Mythopoetic men's movement, which is another thing entirely, that focused on male therapy and masculinity, but ultimately was and still is an inconsequential movement. It's mentality of "toxic masculinity" was that of harmful gender roles that hurt men. Of course those same roles help men in another context, and it's that same context they considered healthy masculinity.Feminism in Academia very quickly coopted that idea, and misappropriated it by applying it to all masculinity, regardless of context. There is no concept "positive masculinity" in feminism, and if anyone claims otherwise then they're lying. Not even male feminists are allowed to wear the label of "good man"; instead they must bow their head and accept that deep down they're a potential rapist because they are a man, and women aren't.It makes fuck all difference if they claim that "it's definitely not meant to hate on men", because actions speak louder than words, and the actions say this is dictionary definition dehumanisation of the male sex.
@David_Kek So what you mean to say is that it IS true (mythopoetic's were a bunch of weirdos who advocated for the betterment of men and men's rights), and then it was co-opted by feminists. I'm missing the part where you contradicted me, which is generally what happens after you say someone is totally wrong..
@WhistleForTheChoir You said they were a men's right group, and that is factually incorrect. Moreover, mythopoetic men's movement practically hasn't existed for decades, so saying they came up with the term in response to the OP is pretty irrelevant, given what it means now. The only people on the planet in the present time that use that term, are feminists in the context of how it was coopted, ie, to dehumanise men.
@WhistleForTheChoir yup Michael Kimmel I believe
In the 80s
@David_Kek From the Wikipedia page: "Major components of the [mythopoetic] men's movement include the men's liberation movement, profeminist men's movement, mythopoetic men's movement, men's rights movement, and the Christian men's movement"Moreover, Isaac Newton hasn't exists for hundreds of years, so I guess the laws he came up with mean something different now too. I don't even know what point you're trying to make there. I don't think that "toxic masculinity" dehumanizes men, any more than saying "rabid dog" implies that all dogs have rabies. I think that you saw feminists or liberals or some group you disapprove of use the word, and so you just took the opposite side without really trying to understand what they were saying, and YOU are actually the one redefining the word so that you will seem reasonable when you take offense to it.
@WhistleForTheChoir it's unsurprising you would tell such bold faced lies.en.m.wikipedia.org/.../Mythopoetic_men%27s_movementNo where on that entire page does it say that, though it does say a number of times how the movement had no interest in rights or politics.They were not a men's rights group, and they had nothing to do with politics of any kind. To claim they was a men's rights group is factually incorrect.As for your pathetic attempt to defend the undefendable; Newton's laws haven't changed, while "toxic masculinity" very much has.As I have already say, there practically isn't anyone left of Mythopoetic men's movement that still use that term. The only people that still use it are feminists, minus any notion of positive masculinity.I don't really care what you think, all I care about is that you're spreading lies, to cover up a lie.
@David_Kek Well, it seems like I struck a little to close to the center. I literally copy-pasted the quote and then added the bracketed part. But here's the thing, you're determined to feel like a victim of big, mean feminists. So you're going to put words in their mouth. I'm kind of done with this, you feel free to argue with yourself.
@WhistleForTheChoir You lied; that quote is nowhere on that page. You are a coward.
@WhistleForTheChoir the mythpotic men's movement and the men's rights movement may very well be both parts of the broader men's movement that no one identifies with, but that doesn't make them synonymous.
@ThisIsMyOpinion It's basically becoming a crime to be masculine due to the demonization of it from the Left/Feminists type of media like CNN or MSNBC. When you hate an entire sex, in this case with men, you'll naturally be criticizing every "problem" with "them." It's similar to a hard Left or hard Right individual would do!
@ThisIsMyOpinion becaues it's promoting toxic feminine behavior in boys. They are fighting men acting like men, by saying it's ok to act like a woman, look like a woman. Both not okayNo boundaries , no backbones is what they want you men to have. They want to take your balls basically that's the War
@Inbox I don't believe that any masculine man would stop acting manly because of what a few idiots are saying on the news.
@WowwGirl they need to be taught to be strong.
This is why I'm counting on and promote the 10% who are actually men like you.and I agree with all you say it's horrible. They don't know how to be or what even being a man is I think
@ThisIsMyOpinion Men who are ALREADY masculine sure, but you have to look at it from a timeline POV. As those morons' voices got louder, more naive and ignorant people inevitably get involved, then spread their views, and as more and more people got involved, so did the media - then the politicians. In other words, the flow of information has been corrupted. It is similar to propaganda. Except it is ignorant forms of propaganda driven by misandry. Remember, your favorite movies, stars, politicians, businesses, etc are all in many ways slaves to the current fashion/trend. @WowwGirl Thanks for being smart enough to see through all this BS.
@Inbox I see. Well let the ignorant and the fools fall for it. Good fathers and role models will always exist to show boys what a man is made out of.
@ThisIsMyOpinion Yes, but those men are a dying breed because in every type of war there is always collateral damage. The damage is apparent well within the courts, schools, societal bias, and many others. Long story short, the Feminists and now the Leftist politicians that support them don't realize that this collateral damage is planting the seeds for the next male revolution such as MGTOW. I don't agree with MGTOW, but it was inevitable as one extreme movement in history always creates a polar opposite extreme movement ;p https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tpy8NMonHE0
@Inbox about 10% act like men actually dominant men
That's the thing, nobody stops men from being men if they really want to. I don't think that's really what the problem is.The problem as I see it is children/teen boys being influenced to act more and more like girls/women, at a time when they're easily influenced and don't know any better. A feminist named Christina Hoff Sommers actually wrote a great book titled "The War On Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men". She wrote a lot about how feminists basically became hostile towards natural male behaviours and began to push more and more to attempt to socialise boys to act more like girls as I said. Here's an old 20 minute video of her speaking about this to give you an idea:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPgoyK_5KV0Those boys once they grow up very often don't know how to act like men anymore, especially those without strong male role models in their lives of which there are many today. The smarter ones figure it out. Others do develop toxic behaviours and look to emulate the wrong role models e. g. by joining gangs. 80% of male prisoners are children of single mothers for that reason, as are most gang members/career criminals. Or they never get it, and they just struggle. You can see some of them in this comment section right now, and they're easy to notice if you've seen their other posts. They're the ones arguing that masculinity doesn't exist or something like that - because that's what they were taught growing up. The point is that for many of them the damage is done by the time they reach adulthood, and this makes the guys who don't get it highly susceptible to the continued brainwashing even as adults.
@Inbox I promote masculinity big time and don't jack with weak men. I get called sexist a lot and it's ridiculous. And thanks for noticing
@Inbox I am thankful I don't live in the US.
That's not nice
@WowwGirl I always felt like I lived in a good country. I am sure the US has it's qualities and quality people. By the way I like that dress.
@WowwGirl Thanks for noticing what? And who calls you sexist for liking strong men?
@Inbox everyone here at one point except @ThisIsMyOpinion he was the only one who stood up for me.
@ThisIsMyOpinion you do live in a good country I'm sure, beautiful to my knowledge.Why do you think I brag on you so much for your beliefs? Becaues there's not guys like you hear except a few. I wasn't feeding your ego I meant the compliments I gave🙂 and thanks it's actually a bodysuit and a skirt.
@WowwGirl I see.Well it looked good on you.
@ThisIsMyOpinion I wish I could forget that dress I've tried to, but can't find a stunt double for it probably never will. It's really sad I lost it to the point it bothers me seeing it now.
If you think that the feminine way is peaceful and diplomatic, you live in a fantasy world :D
No such thing as alpha males. Not in wolves. Not in humans. Google David Mech. He's the person responsible for popularizing the idea, and also the person who has been trying to discredit it for most of his professional career.
@WhistleForTheChoir Have you seen documentaries about animals? There is an alpha, especially in some mammals, they fight and the winner gets to lay the females, eats first the prey etc. In humans, alpha is a term of confidence, leader, stand up to himself, respect and sort of these.
They generally don’t either 🤣It’s almost like people like their partner to have a spine...
There are no such things as Alphas and Betas in human social hierarchies. There aren't even alphas and betas in wolves. The reason you believe this is because of the research of a man called David Mech, you can google him. He spent twenty years trying to discredit his own research into the topic, because he realized he fucked up.Spark Notes: He took wolves away from their pack, threw them in a cage and terrified them. The "Alphas" were the wolves who got violent toward the others. But that's not how they act in the wild. Wolves work together in the wild, and their social hierarchies are fluid. That's how they act when they're terrified, and they thought they would have to compete with a bunch of strangers for food. Basically, being an "alpha" is just putting on a tough-guy front when you're scared. That's true for wolves, and it's true for humans too.
There’s a dominance hierarchy but it’s situational. That said, those near the bottom/people who are bullied end up with lower serotonin levels which has real physiological effects.So betas are kind of a thing, though most people use the term incorrectly to describe somewhat effeminate men.
@WhistleForTheChoir There are though. Whenever someone wants to attempt to debunk the alpha vs beta thing they always bring up wolves because David Mech said that alpha male don't exist outside of captivity, but it's completely irrelevant. There are alpha male lions right? In fact there are many other species that do have alpha males. That's why I say that bringing up wolves is irrelevant. Not only that, we're not closely related to wolves or lions. The animal species which we're most closely related to are chimpanzees and bonobos - they do have alpha males. There are similarities between both of those species because they're very closely related, and there are some behavioural similarities between us and them too.
@Barbaric The reason I bring up David Mech, is because that's the pop culture version of "Alpha/Beta" that you're espousing. That's where people get that image that is constantly espoused, of a man who is an island and doesn't need anyone else, is aggressive when he needs to be, takes what he wants and is inherently at the top of the heap.It's funny that you bring up bonobos though, because, yes, while they are our closest living relative, they're actually matriarchal and matrilineal. Chimpanzee alphas are more akin to human leadership rather than some intrinsic advantage, and chimpanzees can achieve "alpha status" through cunning, alliance-building, intimidation, brute-force or trade. Self-proclaimed human alpha males on the other hand really only respect physical advantages, intimidation and resource acquisition, which isn't even close to the same thing. They're never the brightest or friendliest guys around, and their entire concept of self-validation is based on how laid they get.
You’ve now taken the position that alphas both do and do not exist...I think you’re confusing social dominance and physical dominance/tyranny. We don’t tend to accept bullies long as the next 2-3 males will form an alliance to take out the one bully. That said, social status determines your available alliances.Dominance hierarchies go all the way down to lobsters and all other primates have one. For bonobos there’s a matriarch group and for chimps it’s a group of alpha males in a machevillian alliance. For gorillas it’s a father and sometimes a son as well who control the territory through physical displays/aggression.The really important question is: if you feel like you’re alone at the bottom of the rung; what do you do?
@WhistleForTheChoir I already knew that you'd say that bonobos are our closest relatives. That's your confirmation bias there. There are studies that show that they are... But there are also studies which show that we're more closely related to chimpanzees. Many others which show that we're equally related to both. You say that we're more closely related to bonobos so that you can say that alpha vs beta doesn't exist.What's more, the differences between chimps and bonobos are heavily exaggerated, by people who wanted to do the same thing. There are only very slight differences between the two, and those differences only really have to do with the environment they're in. They like to pretend that bonobos are like peaceful hippies and chimps are like violent skinheads, but bonobos are violent too. They hunt other monkeys to eat and all that. They do use violence with each other too. The mating behaviour is the same for both. Especially for the females. Chimps and bonobos go into heat. When they go into heat they tend to actively seek sex with alpha males over the beta males. And then they will have sex with beta males sometimes when not in heat, in exchange for resources and favours.Human females do the same thing through their menstrual cycle, or at least have the same drive. Studies show that when they're ovulating they show a natural preference for typically masculine men with signs of high testosterone. But at other times in their cycle they prefer a softer man. When married, women with masculine husbands report higher sexual satisfaction during the ovulation phase, whereas those with less masculine husbands report the opposite. The birth control pill also, because it tricks their bodies into thinking that they're pregnant, makes those women choose less masculine men who are more soft and sensitive too. That's all that alpha vs beta really means.
So a couple points as there are a few misunderstandings here:We are equally related to both, they split off from us when the Rift Valley was formed 5mya. Bonobos were split from chimps by the Congo River 3mya. Bonobos had the better area with less competition from other primates and socially evolved to be pretty chill.They do however, have a dominance hierarchy too. It’s just based upon who the females let close to the core of the group. Dominance is about controlling space/having authority over it. In chimps 1-3 males are the alphas, in bonobos it’s the matriarchs. One big reason being chimp females have to transfer between groups. Another big one is there’s more food and sexual opportunity on the bonobo end since they don’t only mate during estrus.Regardless dominance hierarchies exist all the way down to crustacean, just because it’s not immediately obvious who the boss is doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
Why do you say there is a war on masculinity?I am genuinely asking. I mean sure there are some people who go on about it being toxic but aren't those a small group of idiots that do nothing more besides bitch on social media? Why does anyone gives value to what they say? How can they stop a man from acting manly?
@Cryptic-GameMasculinity isn't attacking females please remember. That's the opposite of a real man
Can women attack men and still be feminine?
Not unless standing up for themselves no not really it's masculine. You know I don't fight men. I brought in a man to handle you when you decided to attack me. Both should stay in their own lane I think. I will never fight or attack men I'm a woman
Sometimes a man might have to defend himself against a woman too, like if she has a weapon.
I didn't have a weapon and you wouldn't even talk to my friend so that just means you are so weak you try fighting women becaues you fear fighting men. No men except broken me do that it's sad actually. You should be the last person alive talking about masculinity sir
I am not aware of your friend and your friend cussed at me and hinted my mom should have aborted me.
Wanna meet him again?Then leave me alone
He is mean. He said my mom should have aborted me.
@Cryptic-Game I tried to tell you... look what happened again. Why won't you talk to him like you do me?
You hinted about hitting me in the face wtf do you think is going to happen?
I didn't say I'd hit you in the face.
I'm not arguing just leave me alone please
Leave me alone and he will leave you alone.Done
Thank you 🙏