Should Western nations allow Muslims to practice their religion if Christians and Jews can't do the same in Muslim ones like Iran and Saudi Arabia?

[Physics-Man]

Muslims in the minority demand equal rights, but Muslims in the majority deny them? How the fuck does that make any sense? Why should we bend over backwards and allow them to practice their religion of peace (sarcasm) in our Western Judeo-Christian Civilizations when Christians and Jews are severely oppressed and subverted in Muslim nations and have their religion suppressed? It's supposed to be a 2-way street, not a one way! We're so tolerant of your religion, but the feeling isn't fucking mutual.

Yes

No

[hellionthesagereborn]

Yes. You can't blame them for what other nations do (they don't have power in their nations, the dictators and the rich do). As long as they obey the rules of the nation, they should be allowed to practice their religion as they see fit just like every one else. Otherwise why bother? You can't have the freedom of religion if your not going to allow the freedom of religion. At that point you need to ban judaism because Israel has attacked the US on several occasions (attack on egyptian embassy, attack on the USS Liberty etc.). At that point you would also have to ban budism which is more common in china because the chinese also don't allow people to have different religions.

If you believe in freedom you MUST protect freedom. You cannot believe in freedom if you limit it, you cannot believe in the truth and hide it, its that simple.

[Physics-Man]

Look at what happens where large congregations of Muslims arise in Western Nations like France, Germany, and the UK. They begin to demand Sharia Law and significant increases in crime against Jews and Christians begin to occur. Their ways of life are utterly incompatible with Western Judeo-Christian values and its native civilizations. It's a form of hypocrisy. They should welcome us with open arms just like we tolerate their way of life. It's a virtue that's part of our Western way of life. If we scratch their backs, they should scratch ours. I'm only asking for reciprocity. That's all. If we tolerate them, they should tolerate us as well.

[Physics-Man]

Do you really believe Islam is compatible with our Western way of life and that they'll comply with our Society instead of Sharia Law?

[Physics-Man]

It's not as if Muslims don't have a mind of their own and must follow whatever the Ayatollah or their indigenous nation's laws put out. Look at their 1,300 year history of being against Christianity and Judaism.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Why? Because those nations are weak. They don't expect them to become part of the culture so they remain seperated. Thats why I said they need to except the rules, the society needs to force them to conform to the culture or tell them to leave. That doesn't mean they all need to be punished or surpressed. By your reasoning we need to kick out all hispanics from the country because some of them come here illegally ergo all are guilty. Thats not how the US works and it flies in the face of our culture. I believe in freedom, I will not take away freedom from others because that means that I am afraid that freedom doesn't work, that means I think that I am superior to all others (after all how can you tell others what they are or not allowed to do without thinking that your superior to all others (otherwise you would let them live their lives).

Don't let those who refuse to be apart of the culture be in the country, its that simple. We use to do that in America, teach children that they were not mexican, they were not irish, they were not polish or chinese they were americans. That was pounded into their head until they realize that they were americans and that those were the ideals they needed to uphold. American first, all else second. These nations are not doing that, in fact they are encouraging these people to despise them and revile the culture of the nation they have come to. That is the problem. So again, unless your willing to apply this rule to every one, yourself included, then its not a just decision. You cannot have exceptions for yourself but not for others. That is not just or fair and its not freedom (which every single American must strive for (that is our culture (so in fact any one who doesn't abide by these ideals should, by your own reasoning be removed from the country and that would include those who would propose what your asking (again, by your reasoning). Is that something you are going to find acceptable? Probably not.).

[Physics-Man]

Do you believe the great majority of Muslims take living in white countries and societies for granted? Look at how they abuse the system and don't conform or integrate. Look at the rise in crime and rape. Sweden has become the rape capital of Europe. Do you honestly believe that if they choose not to integrate and we tell them to leave, they'll listen to us?

[Physics-Man]

Of course our cultures are superior. They want to come to our nations and societies, and not the other way around. It's our society that tolerates Freedom of religion, not theirs!

[hellionthesagereborn]

Sharia law is not islam. That is politics. You can go online and listen to the president of Egypt (in the 50s) laughing at the idea of Sharia law stating that if he even suggested making a woman wear a veil they would probably kill him. If you look at photos of the middle east in the fifties and early sixties it looks like the west. Before the Ottoman Turks the middle east was more advanced then any one else, and their was no sharia law. During these time periods they were still muslim.

Your blaming islam for something that is completley unrelated to islam. In the Koran it states that it is not the place of Muslims to force their beliefs on others, that they do not have the right to harm others unless its in defence of themselves of in defence of islam i. e. from the attempts to wipe them out for being muslim.

is this how the middle east acts now? No. So is it Islam or is it the current culture of the middle east? Its the culture. They became fundamentalists which brought ever increasing restrictions and as each restriction came it increased the extremes and killed their economies. As the economies collapsed and their freedoms collapsed extremism became even greater.

Again, your arguing against something that isn't the issue. The irony is this would be just another step in the direction that many muslim countries followed.

[hellionthesagereborn]

We don't have malasians doing this despite them being muslim, we don't have turks doing this despite being muslim. So clearly its not islam. Again, thats like saying that because some hispanics came in to the country illegally we need to get rid of every single one of them because they all must be criminals. Its not a logical argument.

As for their history, again, it wasn't until after the 1100s that you start having issues and that was because of the Ottoman turks. The Muslims were actually far more tolerant of the Jewish people through out all of history then christians were (christians commited far more genocides of jewish people). The recent hostilities between muslims and jews didn't start until the past century with the what many would consider the backstabbing that the zionists did to the Palestinians (and quite frankly, its not an inaccurate representation of events. The ottoman empire fell, Britian came in, the natives of the region tried to gain independence and the zionists gave the British information in exchange for territory despite them being treated fairly well by the people of the region).

Then when they tried to take over chunks of syria and Egypt that further made the situation worse but again, that was their actions not muslims and that was within the past 100 years or so.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Also okay, conquests happened so that means we need to get rid of every non european in the america's? We cannot hold one group to a standard and then not hold all people to the same standard. What did the christians do? Do you think the germanic tribes just up and decided to become christian or do you think it was because the christians came in and butchered their people and threatened to kill their children if they didn't convert? I mean how do you think the religion spread? It would be rather niave to presume it was all benevolent and occured out of free will (and also wrong as we have documents of Charlamagne's conquests, of the romen and later holy roman empires religious decrees that mandated christianity as the only religion, the persecution of non christians etc. ).

So again, this is a poor argument as your arguing that because it was done to christians at one point these people are inherently bad but then decided to ignore the fact that christians also did these things. Its like when the left claims whites are evil because they had slaves but then ignore the fact that so did every one else. You don't get to have it both ways, either every one was wrong or this was just something that all major powers did at that period of time (which is precisely the case) wrong or right all are equally guilty.

[hellionthesagereborn]

As for them not conforming, sure it happens but why? Because the left is telling them not to conform, they are telling them that our culture is worthless and evil. Why would you conform to an evil culture? You wouldn't. Is it hypocritical? Sure, but your being hypocritical as well, people tend to be hypocrits. Not saying its right by any means, but you have to identify the problem and your not doing that. Your blaming all muslims for what some muslims do. You are saying that we have the superior culture because of our freedoms like freedom of religion and then turning around and proclaiming we should get rid of the freedom of religion. Well which one is it? Is it superior to have that or should we get rid of it and be like them? You can't have it both ways.

Again, I'm not saying they should be allowed to do that, but that doesn't mean you banish all people because of what some do. You figure out what the issue is, currently its the idea that is pushed by the left that our nation is worthless and evil and that all peoples cultures are superior to ours. We fight that, we point out that they came here, that if they are here they must abide by our rules, we should be instilling patriotism in them not hatred of us. The left is instilling hatred of us and quite franklly so is the right (by proclaiming things like your saying, stating that we are better then them because we have these freedoms which we have every intention of violating when convient. Do you respect some one who is willing to sacrifice their values to do the easy thing? No. Do you tolerate some one who would morally grandstand about their values then immediatley turn on those very values? No. Yet that is what you propose and so do some conservatives.

[hellionthesagereborn]

What we should be doing is pointing out that their own religion calls for tolerance (because it does, just as christianity calls for forgivness yet many christians don't do that the same is true for muslims). You hold up the ones that do good and show them as an example (the Imam of peace is one. He is calling out the extremists, he is pointing out that this is holding them back and trying to reform the culture. Praise that behavior prop it up and push for more of it).

Get them to see the nation as their own, currently the left has made sure they never do. As such when they destroy this nation it won't be their nation they destroyed but an evil terrible nation that was their enemy. In order to do that you need to understand their culture, their religion, and get them to recognize the value in our society. You also need to make sure that they understand that we gave them opportunities that their nation didn't and thats why they came here so they need to appreciate that. You don't attack all of them when all of them are not the problem.

[SuccessfulHornDog]

Its a sickening hypocrisy that our leftward liberals gleefully ignore. They even excuse misogyny by claiming its not right to condemn them because its part of their culture. Meanwhile they fully intend to destroy our culture and replace it with leftist tyranny which is complete control of the masses

[Anonymous]

I know right.

These two women were beheaded in Morocco. If non muslim women can't travel muslim countries without hijab, then muslim women shouldn't be able to travel non-muslim countries with hijab.

Here is what happens if women dont wear hijab in Iran:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/nbC5Fh33I9U

[EyesOfGod]

Yep they are backwards animals

[bbbrat]

Bruh only Iran mandates a head covering. 18 countries worldwide prohibit a head covering (such as a hijab, burqa, etc.) Muslims are constantly policed and stereotyped as “terrorists” in Western countries, that is not tolerant. You can just say that you’re islamophobic.

[OlderAndWiser]

I don't think that Western civilization will benefit from modeling itself after any Sharia-driven nation. If we view their behavior as wrong, why should we then copy it?

[cth96190]

Western Civilisation and Islam are utterly incompatable.
Muslims enter the West in accordance with Mohammed’s doctrine of invasion and taking over by demographic replacemen via immigration.
If the West is to survive, all Muslims must be expelled, by the use of whatever measures are necessary.

[Shamalien]

I mean we are who we are, we allow free expression here idgaf what muslim countries do. But when muslims try to suppress free speech on our soil they shud b treated like the scum theyv proven themselves to be. Like in my country they actually pushed a bill through, m103, that makes criticizing islam a hate crime (but muslims can talk shit bout the other religions no problem) once muslims get in ur government u must start worrying but as citizens going to mosques i say thats no issue

[Liam_Hayden]

Iran actually does have populations of Jews and Christians, but I understand what you are saying. Yes, we should, because we are better than those backwards theocracies. We just need to make sure that our representative government and liberties do not get overrun anywhere within our boundaries.

[Anpu23]

People should be allowed to worship whatever they want, I simply don't care until someone wants to tell me I'm wrong and wants to stop me from my worship. I don't care what they do over there... If they are respectful of my beliefs over here let them do whatever. But I do expect them to conform to the laws of the country they reside in, that includes religious laws.

[Physics-Man]

Let me just tell you that Muslims and their majority nations don't respect other adherents of different religions and persistently subvert and suppress them. They don't conform to the laws of their host countries either.

[Anpu23]

How many Muslims have you met? I have known quite a few, had a couple of workout partners who were followers of Islam. I've known Suni, Shi'i and members of the NOI and have spoken religion with them. Further I have known and worked with actual convicted religious terrorists, and have discussed religion with them. And all of them knew I was a practicing pagan running a witchcraft coven. Most, I have found, are humble people who have a deep love for their god. Most are able to accept that others are on a different path, and are less likely to try and convert you then many Christians I have known.

[TheFlak38]

There is not one non-White country on this planet that cares about the group interests of white people. I don't give a fuck about muslims or jews in Western nations. We don't owe you shit! Wanna pray to your pedophile prophet? go to a muslim majority nation.

[Daniel3035]

Yes if we're talking similarly then no. But my family is Muslim and I'm atheist but we hate saudi etc I would say yes why?
Because we're not Saudi or Iran we're better than them we treat humans equally we don't delude people to a single belief let people choose.

[andreasderjuengere]

Since when are Jews and Christians on the same side?
---
I think that some 'competition' does not hurt. I only need to be worried if my own 'faith' does not prove to be stable enough for myself.
If societies somewhere else are too rigid (or 'intolerant'?) this is not a reason for me to copy that attitude in my own environment; no one forces me to live there.
The idea of 'equal' rights does not mean to 'displace' or to 'replace' rights.

[Physics-Man]

It's a form of hypocrisy. They should welcome us with open arms just like we tolerate their way of life. It's a virtue that's part of our Western way of life. If we scratch their backs, they should scratch ours.

[Physics-Man]

I'm only asking for reciprocity. That's all. If we tolerate them, they should tolerate us as well.

[andreasderjuengere]

That would be an ideal case - and it makes sense.
Unfortunately, reality looks differently. But I think that 'we' don't need to copy the 'bad examples'; 'we' can do better :)

[loveslongnails]

Sounds like you're confusing living in places where you can practice religion freely with Iran and Saudi Arabia, where you can't. Who said it is "supposed to be a two-way street"? No it isn't, that's why they're repressive countries. I have no problem "tolerating" other religious beliefs as long as you don't foist them on me in any way, especially by attempting to change the laws of the land.

[Barry88]

Of course we should allow muslims to do so. Because we're not the same as muslim-majority countries.

And to be fair, not all muslim-majority countries ban Christians from practicing their religion.

[NamerOfStars]

Of course- the whole point of freedom of religion is lost if you say "except you". Hell, if you don't strive to be better, why would anyone bother with you?

[Anonymous]

Yeah, where does it say just because those countries are intolerant, backwards, and medieval. That we need to be to? This is what makes us better than them. The world is watching.

[tartaarsaus]

Yes.


Question: do you think Western governments should kill off religious freedom to punish those who have exactly the square root of jack of impact on the decisions of the current ayatollah because you don’t like the ayatollah’s policy?


It’s really a choice between embracing Western freedoms or killing it off because not everyone is the same as you

[Physics-Man]

Utter fucking nonsense! You see the same orders of discrimination accross the Muslim Arab world in uniformity. Look at what happens where large congregations of Muslims arise in Western Nations like France, Germany, and the UK. They begin to demand Sharia Law and significant increases in crime against Jews and Christians begin to occur. Their ways of life are utterly incompatible with Western Judeo-Christian values and its native civilizations. It's a disgusting form of hypocrisy. If we shower them with love and acceptance, why shouldn't their mudslide religion return the favor?

[tartaarsaus]

Okay.

If it is nonsense, Please then explain to me how a random Muslim on the streets of Düsseldorf can affect the policy of Ayatollah Khamenei, ordered from Tehran and been relatively consistent since 1979.

If you have not noticed, these big nations in the Middle East tend to not be particularly democratic. That means that your random Muslims abroad are not really relevant for the decision-making there.

In other words, whining and pointing at different nations is stupid af.

—

Would you mind citing a poll then stating that a dominant majority of the Muslim population in European nations demand Shariah law, beyond e. g. simple marriage stuff? For the record, religious Jewish law in marriage often exists in European nations.

But then you go on to claim their “ways of life are utterly incompatible with... native civilizations”. Should I remind you that the crime rate among these immigrants is only a couple percent higher? Or that for example here in the Netherlands their education levels are starting to rise?

Clearly their way of life is compatible, because they function in society like pretty much everyone.

And no, it’s not hypocrisy lol. It’d be hypocrisy if those muslims in Europe made the policy in the KSA. But they don’t.

[tartaarsaus]

Edit: there are some rabbinical courts but not necessarily widespread

[OddBeMe]

Because they’re assholes doesn’t mean we should be.

[Agape93]

Yes. No need to be as bad as those countries.

[Physics-Man]

Look at what happens where large congregations of Muslims arise in Western Nations like France, Germany, and the UK. They begin to demand Sharia Law and significant increases in crime against Jews and Christians begin to occur. Their ways of life are utterly incompatible with Western Judeo-Christian values and its native civilizations. It's a disgusting form of hypocrisy. If we shower them with love and acceptance, why shouldn't their mudslide religion return the favor?

[Agape93]

I agree, it should return that courtesy in time. Perhaps a new system is in order? You want shariah law? Cool. We get mosaic law, slavery and murder included. We get pagan traditions, like the blood eagle. Etc so on and so forth.

Only fair in my opinion. They don’t like it, they shouldn’t ask for them to be an exception b

[cloud9vortex1234]

It doesn't make any sense. That's why I don't trust Muslim Politicians.

[G3tAClue]

You’re no better of a nation for denying a group their rights because you’re afraid of them. That just proves human history over and over and over and over again.

[Physics-Man]

It's a form of hypocrisy. They should welcome us with open arms just like we tolerate their way of life. It's a virtue that's part of our Western way of life. If we scratch their backs, they should scratch ours.

I'm only asking for reciprocity. That's all. If we tolerate them, they should tolerate us as well.

[Physics-Man]

Afraid of them? Look at what happens where large congregations of Muslims arise in Western Nations like France, Germany, and the UK. They begin to demand Sharia Law and significant increases in crime against Jews and Christians begin to occur. Their ways of life are utterly incompatible with Western Judeo-Christian values and its native civilizations.

[G3tAClue]

Well, I live in the PNW and I’ve met a lot of peaceful Muslims up here. All you sound like is a regurgitation of Fox News.

[Physics-Man]

Oh please! Great rebuttal!

Remember, your experiences are not representative of the whole, but only a small part of the big picture.

[G3tAClue]

So are yours. I lived in an Arab country with Muslim host families as well. Am I right to assume I’m more qualified to talk about Muslims in this conversation?

[Physics-Man]

No you're not, because once again, your experiences only constitute a small part of the picture. The data represents the whole or a great part.

[Anonymous]

No Islam does not tolerate freedom of religion, so we cannot tolerate Islam.

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

I think no one should be allowed to practice any religion, it's time we move on from those fairy tales.

[Sexyguysex]

If you do the same with Muslims as they do with you then what's the difference between them n you

[0oGreyo0]

Isn't it freedom of religion here in America or some nonsense. Like if i wanna worship a snickers bar i can.

Im atheist and i think all y'all are stupid

[Physics-Man]

Freedom of religion is something that is held across all Western Judeo-Christian civilizations, not just America. It's not held in the Muslim world however.

[0oGreyo0]

Muslims people are stupid they don't even let they bitches drive cars. Its one of those few times where you can't stop freedom of religion without affecting everyone

[EyesOfGod]

Freedom of religion and expression

[EyesOfGod]

But never allow shit like Shaira Law because that undermines authority.

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

Yes I would say