Does DeSantis have a point?

Question

Yes

No

Select age and gender to cast your vote:

GirlGuy

Answer 1

Lliam | 2.2K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.

Master

He's got the right idea. I feel sorry who have bought the fear propaganda over this "covid" thing. And I despise those who support fascism in the name of public safety.

The shots don't work and they actually pose more danger than the infection. Plus, people who get them have an equal risk of contracting the infection and spreading it to others.

I will not mask, nor will I get the jab. Businesses who insist on those things will never get my business again... ever. I hope they go broke.

It's not covid, but the response to it, that has caused untold harm. I will resist the push toward totalitarianism with any means at my disposal.

React

3 People

goaded

4 mo
"I will not mask, nor will I get the jab. Businesses who insist on those things will never get my business again... ever. I hope they go broke."
They won't, because the majority of customers will feel safer going there.

The shots do work, they certainly do not pose more danger than the infection which is 15x more likely to kill you if you're unvaccinated, and there isn't an equal risk of passing on the virus because you're infectious for less time.
anylolone

4 mo
@goaded Do they? Imagine losing this badly and still being on denial.
Most costumers use their masks on their chins.
goaded

4 mo
@anylolone Not around here, because they're not all morons (a few are). I was wrong, by the way, apparently the numbers are: 17 times more likely to go to the hospital if you’re unvaccinated, 20 times more likely to die.
Show All Show Less
anylolone

4 mo
@goaded But what's the testing procedures and methodology?
goaded

4 mo
@anylolone Counting dead people? I don't know. If you think they're wrong, why don't you find out?
anylolone

4 mo
@goaded They told us before they changed the policy, they told us their un-eaven policy, and now they are themselves telling the numbers are inflated, as you know.
goaded

4 mo
@anylolone Who's "they"? Illinios, in March 2020? You can just look at the numbers of excess deaths and how they match up with the covid deaths numbers.
anylolone

4 mo
@goaded You know who's "they", stop playing the fool here.
They here means the alarmist public officials.

Again, they told us the testing policy and it's difference between the policy on testing and classifying vaccinated deaths and the unvaccinated.
Because of such policies, any report that uses test results and governmental data based on the public policy on test is completely useless, as it lacks the necessary impartiality straight from the methodological stand point.
Which is why now they are moving back and cleaning such records of false positives.

The only useful data in this case is a multi-varied analysis looking at crude death rates with a sufficient large sample while also comparing with previous years.
goaded

4 mo
@anylolone How about the study that followed 1.2 million Americans who were vaccinated last year and found a death rate from covid of 0.003% (36 people, 28 of whom had 4 co-morbidites)?

"Among 1,228,664 persons who completed primary vaccination during December 2020–October 2021, a total of 2,246 (18.0 per 10,000 vaccinated persons) developed COVID-19 and 189 (1.5 per 10,000) had a severe outcome, including 36 who died (0.3 deaths per 10,000)."

www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7101a4.htm
anylolone

4 mo
@goaded "from covid" with disparate testing and death classifying policies.
Way to write the conclusion in the premisses.
goaded

4 mo
@anylolone Weren't you just claiming that their methods over-count covid deaths? Wouldn't that mean that covid deaths among the sample were even fewer than 36?
anylolone

4 mo
@goaded Not in this case, when it comes to the vaccinated, instead they only count symptomatic cases and take into consideration comorbidities when classifying deaths, besides requiring several different tests to rule the person as even having covid.
You know, how it used to be, with everybody, before this whole fiasco.
And it's worst because it doesn't consider vaccinated people as vaccinated through a very long period, which wouldn't be the case previously.
And it doesn't count if you were reinfected, being previously infected up to 90 days before taking the vaccine. (though I don't believe the last on would be statistically significant.)

So as I said, you need multi-variable analysis comparing crude mortality.
Juxtapose

4 mo
@anylolone thank you man, you're pretty knowledgeable about your stuff.

Answer 2

goaded

"I will not mask, nor will I get the jab. Businesses who insist on those things will never get my business again... ever. I hope they go broke."
They won't, because the majority of customers will feel safer going there.

The shots do work, they certainly do not pose more danger than the infection which is 15x more likely to kill you if you're unvaccinated, and there isn't an equal risk of passing on the virus because you're infectious for less time.

Answer 3

anylolone

@goaded Do they? Imagine losing this badly and still being on denial.
Most costumers use their masks on their chins.

Answer 4

goaded

@anylolone Not around here, because they're not all morons (a few are). I was wrong, by the way, apparently the numbers are: 17 times more likely to go to the hospital if you’re unvaccinated, 20 times more likely to die.

Answer 5

anylolone

@goaded But what's the testing procedures and methodology?

Answer 6

goaded

@anylolone Counting dead people? I don't know. If you think they're wrong, why don't you find out?

Answer 7

anylolone

@goaded They told us before they changed the policy, they told us their un-eaven policy, and now they are themselves telling the numbers are inflated, as you know.

Answer 8

goaded

@anylolone Who's "they"? Illinios, in March 2020? You can just look at the numbers of excess deaths and how they match up with the covid deaths numbers.

Answer 9

anylolone

@goaded You know who's "they", stop playing the fool here.
They here means the alarmist public officials.

Again, they told us the testing policy and it's difference between the policy on testing and classifying vaccinated deaths and the unvaccinated.
Because of such policies, any report that uses test results and governmental data based on the public policy on test is completely useless, as it lacks the necessary impartiality straight from the methodological stand point.
Which is why now they are moving back and cleaning such records of false positives.

The only useful data in this case is a multi-varied analysis looking at crude death rates with a sufficient large sample while also comparing with previous years.

Answer 10

goaded

@anylolone How about the study that followed 1.2 million Americans who were vaccinated last year and found a death rate from covid of 0.003% (36 people, 28 of whom had 4 co-morbidites)?

"Among 1,228,664 persons who completed primary vaccination during December 2020–October 2021, a total of 2,246 (18.0 per 10,000 vaccinated persons) developed COVID-19 and 189 (1.5 per 10,000) had a severe outcome, including 36 who died (0.3 deaths per 10,000)."

www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7101a4.htm

Answer 11

anylolone

@goaded "from covid" with disparate testing and death classifying policies.
Way to write the conclusion in the premisses.

Answer 12

goaded

@anylolone Weren't you just claiming that their methods over-count covid deaths? Wouldn't that mean that covid deaths among the sample were even fewer than 36?

Answer 13

anylolone

@goaded Not in this case, when it comes to the vaccinated, instead they only count symptomatic cases and take into consideration comorbidities when classifying deaths, besides requiring several different tests to rule the person as even having covid.
You know, how it used to be, with everybody, before this whole fiasco.
And it's worst because it doesn't consider vaccinated people as vaccinated through a very long period, which wouldn't be the case previously.
And it doesn't count if you were reinfected, being previously infected up to 90 days before taking the vaccine. (though I don't believe the last on would be statistically significant.)

So as I said, you need multi-variable analysis comparing crude mortality.

Answer 14

Juxtapose

@anylolone thank you man, you're pretty knowledgeable about your stuff.

Answer 15

hahahmm | 1.2K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.

Guru

He's right. For a real laugh read about when the state's surgeon general Joseph Ladapo, went to a meeting with lawmaker Tina Polsky. She offered him a mask.. & he & his staff refused BUT he offered to stay outside the office and talk through the door. She kicks him out of the meeting and goes national with a story that he refused to show her any compassion. She also said she has breast cancer -- poor me - which she'd never told anybody until AFTER the meeting. But there's pictures of her talking close to other people without any masks. DeSantis called out her bs.

React

3 People

Answer 16

goaded | 2.6K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.

Guru

If he'd run his state like California, he'd have saved 20,000 lives. And California isn't even the best state in the Union. He also manipulates the state's covid numbers.

https://www.girlsaskguys.com/social-relationships/q4714842-is-florida-hiding-their-covid-numbers-again
Florida is manipulating its covid death numbers!

React

Juxtapose

4 mo
Who isn't manipulating the numbers?
goaded

4 mo
Ah, yes, Illinois, 18 March 2020. In May 2020:

"“There are also some additional deaths that happen in someone who happened to be COVID positive, but where the COVID infection had nothing to do with the deaths,” she said. “So we are at IDPH trying to remove those obvious cases where the COVID diagnosis was not the reason for the death. If there was a gunshot wound, if there was a motor vehicle accident, we know that that was not related to the COVID positive status.

“We are trying to make sure that things that aren’t related at all to the COVID diagnosis are removed, but if someone has another illness, like heart disease, and then had a stroke or other event, it’s not as easy to separate that and say COVID didn’t exacerbate that existing illness. That would not be removed from the count,” she added.

Above all else, Ezike said that the state is striving for as much accuracy as possible, presenting a true picture of what is going on statewide when reporting on the number of cases and fatalities related to the virus. "
www.nbcchicago.com/.../

Of course, the right wing won't accept that anything changes in two years, if they find something they enjoy repeating.
Juxtapose

4 mo
"“So we are at IDPH trying to remove those obvious cases where the COVID diagnosis was not the reason for the death. If there was a gunshot wound, if there was a motor vehicle accident, we know that that was not related to the COVID positive status."

Well the sooner they get to it the better. But for every benevolent person working in government there is 10 benevolent people working against them so good fucking luck to them.
Show All Show Less
Juxtapose

4 mo
Jfc my phone fucked me.

I meant there was 10 malevolent
goaded

4 mo
"Who isn't manipulating the numbers?" Since we have one example each (yours being from when there were literally a handful of deaths in Illinois, and they've made corrections), that leaves 48 that presumably aren't.
Juxtapose

4 mo
Frankly this whole pandemic could have been managed a lot better. If you give people freedom of choice and give them the facts without forcing them to do anything or trying to blackmail them with their job, chances are they're going to be much more willing to listen to you.
Juxtapose

4 mo
"that leaves 48 that presumably aren't."

Ah yes, because the government has proven so trustworthy thus far.
goaded

4 mo
Well, the first year of the pandemic was under the control of a president who apparently knew the virus was airborne in February 2020 and wasn't seen wearing a mask in public until mid-July by which time he'd been undermining Fauci by giving misleading quotes to the press. You're ignoring that there was and is an entire right-wing movement lying outright to their followers about the disease, masks, and vaccines.

I think the government is capable of counting dead bodies, even if Florida won't label them as covid if they're from out of state.
Juxtapose

4 mo
I never said Republicans were any better.
goaded

4 mo
"Well the sooner they get to it the better"
They got to it (past tense) 20 months ago (when there were still only a few thousand deaths in the state).

" I never said Republicans were any better. "
But it's DeSantis that you're holding up as a positive example, rather than the governors of any of the 8 states with half the number of deaths per capita, or the 23 with lower than the US average.
Juxtapose

4 mo
I prioritize freedom over life. DeSantis is for freedom.

Give me liberty or give me death.
goaded

4 mo
And whatever you do, don't ask me to help save my neighbours' lives by wearing a mask or getting a simple safe vaccine.
anylolone

4 mo
It's not simple, it's not safe and it's not effective.
Boosters every 3 months that still don't function as a traditional vaccine with way higher risks is not simple, not safe nor effective.

Cloth masks aren't effective at all, and even medical grade masks barely do anything.
goaded

4 mo
@anylolone I'd say reducing your chances of death by 95% is effective, and the "every three months" thing is right-wing exaggeration at this point. The disease is largely seasonal.
anylolone

4 mo
But what's the methodology and testing policy?
Juxtapose

4 mo
Where is the 10-year long trial period with peer review? Why is Dr Robert Malone being censored before he even speaks on The Joe Rogan podcast?
goaded

4 mo
"Where is the 10-year long trial period with peer review?"
Stage 4 is ongoing. Would you have rather had millions more die for sure than release the extensively tested vaccine? By the time I'd had one, over 3 billion shots had been given; we'd have noticed if the danger was remotely comparable to the virus itself, which had "only" infected 190 million by then and killed four million.

"Why is Dr Robert Malone being censored"
By a government, or corporations with an interest in not spreading misinformation?

"before he even speaks on The Joe Rogan podcast?"
The podcast where Mallone claimed asking people to come together to react to a deadly pandemic is more like being a Nazi than following a man who literally said "I alone can fix it" and tried very hard to overturn a free and fair election, and is working on stealing future ones by having party loyalists count the vote? No idea.
anylolone

4 mo
The podcast where he talks about a well known phenomena who was fact checked by a guy twitting about exploiting said phenomena.

"Come together" that's the misnomer of the century.
Juxtapose

4 mo
"The podcast where he talks about a well known phenomena who was fact checked by a guy twitting about exploiting said phenomena."

lol gotta to love these "fact checkers."
Juxtapose

4 mo
*gotta love
goaded

4 mo
@anylolone @Juxtapose Turns out it's a made up term unsupported by evidence. In other words, it's this year's CRT. If it were a thing, it describes Trump and the election fraud lies far better than anything else. Just another example of right-wingers telling us what they're doing by accusing the left of doing it.

medicalxpress.com/.../...unded-theory-dismiss.html
https://biblio.ugent.be/person/801001743835 (Desmet's publications)
Juxtapose

4 mo
CRT was labeled poorly but it represents a real phenomenon.
anylolone

4 mo
CRT is the label they started with, and it's essentially what they are teaching, definitional plasticity won't help you here, which is also a technique they explicitly talk about using.

The center point of CRT, it's center axiom by the creators of CRT is that in any interaction, the question is not if there's racism, but how there's racism, basically an even dumber version of critical theory's negative thinking. And when states ban CRT, all they are banning is just ascribing moral valence over race, sex and gender and receive state funding, which is technically already banned implicitly but they bring it to the explicit level and you hate it.

Again, Jay Van Bavel's has deleted a tweet where he asks exactly to use mass nudging, and that's basically just saying to exploit mass formation psychosis. And his whole area of expertize is hypnosis, which is very close to nudging.

Here's his book on group identities. www.amazon.com/.../0316538418
Here's his tweet.
Here's his article where he discusses using nudging to manipulate the public.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-0884-z

And it's fun how they went from discredited to "unfounded", which is quite fun, since malone refers to it as a hypothesis and so does matias. Well, what's debated really is the mechanism, the phenomena of mass hysteria is well documented and evidenced.

on, and on the link you post the guy's area is using hypnosis.
goaded

4 mo
@anylolone I've still to see any serious paper by anyone referring to "Mass Formation Psychosis". It's exactly like CRT, where the right has taken something nobody has ever heard of and twisted it to use as a weapon against the truth.

There's no place in the entire US where three black men could chase down a white jogger, kill him, admit to it, and be let off by not one but two district attorneys. None.

As to "nudging", what the hell do you expect people in government to do? Would you rather they rounded people up and jabbed them against their will, or that they just didn't push vaccines at all and watch people die by the hundreds of thousands?

What the hell do you think all the covid deniers, quack cure pushers, and anti-vaccine people are doing to you? They're nudging, only they're doing it despite the fact that it will kill people. Theraputics give you maybe 50% better chance of surviving, vaccines give you 2000% better. You've got one side pointing out the truth, and the other side lying that the vaccines will kill you.
anylolone

4 mo
Want me to give you a list? A long list?

Let's start with "The crowd" by gustave le bon:

www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/445/pg445.html

"Group Mind" by mcdougall?
www.gutenberg.org/files/40826/40826-h/40826-h.htm

"Crowds and Power" by Canetti?
ratical.org/.../Crowds-and-Power-Elias-Canetti.pdf
"Classification and symbols of masses" by the same author?
ratical.org/.../...icationSymbolsMassesCanetti.pdf

"Brutality of evil" by Arendt?
ratical.org/.../...ality-of-Evil-Hannah-Arendt.pdf

Asch with "Studies of Independence and conformity"?

Or anything by goebbels or the AP fact checker Jay Van Bavel on how to exploit it?

I expect the government to make a rational internally consistent case for the vaccines and procedures and follow their own rules, well, if they actually believe their own shit.
goaded

4 mo
@anylolone If they're on guttenberg, they're so old they're out of copyright. Which one of them uses the term "Mass Formation Psychosis"?
anylolone

4 mo
That I know, the term, none, that I know, none uses the same term for the exact same phenomena. Some of them being so old as to be out of copyright is exactly the point.
There's still no standard for the term to be used, all of those quote other authors using different terms for the same phenomena.
From mass hysteria, mass psychosis, crowd formation, etc...

But lack of standardization of terminology isn't uncommon for the field.
goaded

4 mo
@anylolone I'm sure your research included a full range of articles and papers that criticize the ones you posted. Would you post a few links to them?

This gentleman, for example, points out that the idea that crowds are "mad" grew out of fear of crowds by the powerful in 19th century France. He points out that there can be positive as well as negative crowd behaviour.

www.socialsciencespace.com/.../

Sticking together to saves lives, like Bulgaria did in WWII, or like sensible people during a pandemic, is a positive behaviour. Negative behaviour is when you exclude whole groups as "the other", which is what is happening with large parts of the Republican party treating Democrats, their representatives and their votes, as illegitimate.
anylolone

4 mo
The gentleman then completely ignores most of history if he thinks that idea originated on France at the 18th hundreds.

It's literally ignoring centuries old practices related to the koryos, as one example.

Oh, and there's no dispute that crowd forming can have positive consequences.
That's not what's being argued here.

Answer 17

Juxtapose

Who isn't manipulating the numbers?

Does DeSantis have a point?

Answer 18

goaded

Ah, yes, Illinois, 18 March 2020. In May 2020:

"“There are also some additional deaths that happen in someone who happened to be COVID positive, but where the COVID infection had nothing to do with the deaths,” she said. “So we are at IDPH trying to remove those obvious cases where the COVID diagnosis was not the reason for the death. If there was a gunshot wound, if there was a motor vehicle accident, we know that that was not related to the COVID positive status.

“We are trying to make sure that things that aren’t related at all to the COVID diagnosis are removed, but if someone has another illness, like heart disease, and then had a stroke or other event, it’s not as easy to separate that and say COVID didn’t exacerbate that existing illness. That would not be removed from the count,” she added.

Above all else, Ezike said that the state is striving for as much accuracy as possible, presenting a true picture of what is going on statewide when reporting on the number of cases and fatalities related to the virus. "
www.nbcchicago.com/.../

Of course, the right wing won't accept that anything changes in two years, if they find something they enjoy repeating.

Answer 19

Juxtapose

"“So we are at IDPH trying to remove those obvious cases where the COVID diagnosis was not the reason for the death. If there was a gunshot wound, if there was a motor vehicle accident, we know that that was not related to the COVID positive status."

Well the sooner they get to it the better. But for every benevolent person working in government there is 10 benevolent people working against them so good fucking luck to them.

Answer 20

Juxtapose

Jfc my phone fucked me.

I meant there was 10 malevolent

Answer 21

goaded

"Who isn't manipulating the numbers?" Since we have one example each (yours being from when there were literally a handful of deaths in Illinois, and they've made corrections), that leaves 48 that presumably aren't.

Answer 22

Juxtapose

Frankly this whole pandemic could have been managed a lot better. If you give people freedom of choice and give them the facts without forcing them to do anything or trying to blackmail them with their job, chances are they're going to be much more willing to listen to you.

Answer 23

Juxtapose

"that leaves 48 that presumably aren't."

Ah yes, because the government has proven so trustworthy thus far.

Answer 24

goaded

Well, the first year of the pandemic was under the control of a president who apparently knew the virus was airborne in February 2020 and wasn't seen wearing a mask in public until mid-July by which time he'd been undermining Fauci by giving misleading quotes to the press. You're ignoring that there was and is an entire right-wing movement lying outright to their followers about the disease, masks, and vaccines.

I think the government is capable of counting dead bodies, even if Florida won't label them as covid if they're from out of state.

Answer 25

Juxtapose

I never said Republicans were any better.

Answer 26

goaded

"Well the sooner they get to it the better"
They got to it (past tense) 20 months ago (when there were still only a few thousand deaths in the state).

" I never said Republicans were any better. "
But it's DeSantis that you're holding up as a positive example, rather than the governors of any of the 8 states with half the number of deaths per capita, or the 23 with lower than the US average.

Answer 27

Juxtapose

I prioritize freedom over life. DeSantis is for freedom.

Give me liberty or give me death.

Answer 28

goaded

And whatever you do, don't ask me to help save my neighbours' lives by wearing a mask or getting a simple safe vaccine.

Answer 29

anylolone

It's not simple, it's not safe and it's not effective.
Boosters every 3 months that still don't function as a traditional vaccine with way higher risks is not simple, not safe nor effective.

Cloth masks aren't effective at all, and even medical grade masks barely do anything.

Answer 30

goaded

@anylolone I'd say reducing your chances of death by 95% is effective, and the "every three months" thing is right-wing exaggeration at this point. The disease is largely seasonal.

Answer 31

anylolone

But what's the methodology and testing policy?

Answer 32

Juxtapose

Where is the 10-year long trial period with peer review? Why is Dr Robert Malone being censored before he even speaks on The Joe Rogan podcast?

Answer 33

goaded

"Where is the 10-year long trial period with peer review?"
Stage 4 is ongoing. Would you have rather had millions more die for sure than release the extensively tested vaccine? By the time I'd had one, over 3 billion shots had been given; we'd have noticed if the danger was remotely comparable to the virus itself, which had "only" infected 190 million by then and killed four million.

"Why is Dr Robert Malone being censored"
By a government, or corporations with an interest in not spreading misinformation?

"before he even speaks on The Joe Rogan podcast?"
The podcast where Mallone claimed asking people to come together to react to a deadly pandemic is more like being a Nazi than following a man who literally said "I alone can fix it" and tried very hard to overturn a free and fair election, and is working on stealing future ones by having party loyalists count the vote? No idea.

Answer 34

anylolone

The podcast where he talks about a well known phenomena who was fact checked by a guy twitting about exploiting said phenomena.

"Come together" that's the misnomer of the century.

Answer 35

Juxtapose

"The podcast where he talks about a well known phenomena who was fact checked by a guy twitting about exploiting said phenomena."

lol gotta to love these "fact checkers."

Answer 36

Juxtapose

*gotta love

Answer 37

goaded

@anylolone @Juxtapose Turns out it's a made up term unsupported by evidence. In other words, it's this year's CRT. If it were a thing, it describes Trump and the election fraud lies far better than anything else. Just another example of right-wingers telling us what they're doing by accusing the left of doing it.

medicalxpress.com/.../...unded-theory-dismiss.html
https://biblio.ugent.be/person/801001743835 (Desmet's publications)

Answer 38

Juxtapose

CRT was labeled poorly but it represents a real phenomenon.

Answer 39

anylolone

CRT is the label they started with, and it's essentially what they are teaching, definitional plasticity won't help you here, which is also a technique they explicitly talk about using.

The center point of CRT, it's center axiom by the creators of CRT is that in any interaction, the question is not if there's racism, but how there's racism, basically an even dumber version of critical theory's negative thinking. And when states ban CRT, all they are banning is just ascribing moral valence over race, sex and gender and receive state funding, which is technically already banned implicitly but they bring it to the explicit level and you hate it.

Again, Jay Van Bavel's has deleted a tweet where he asks exactly to use mass nudging, and that's basically just saying to exploit mass formation psychosis. And his whole area of expertize is hypnosis, which is very close to nudging.

Here's his book on group identities. www.amazon.com/.../0316538418
Here's his tweet.
Here's his article where he discusses using nudging to manipulate the public.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-0884-z
Does DeSantis have a point?

And it's fun how they went from discredited to "unfounded", which is quite fun, since malone refers to it as a hypothesis and so does matias. Well, what's debated really is the mechanism, the phenomena of mass hysteria is well documented and evidenced.

on, and on the link you post the guy's area is using hypnosis.

Answer 40

goaded

@anylolone I've still to see any serious paper by anyone referring to "Mass Formation Psychosis". It's exactly like CRT, where the right has taken something nobody has ever heard of and twisted it to use as a weapon against the truth.

There's no place in the entire US where three black men could chase down a white jogger, kill him, admit to it, and be let off by not one but two district attorneys. None.

As to "nudging", what the hell do you expect people in government to do? Would you rather they rounded people up and jabbed them against their will, or that they just didn't push vaccines at all and watch people die by the hundreds of thousands?

What the hell do you think all the covid deniers, quack cure pushers, and anti-vaccine people are doing to you? They're nudging, only they're doing it despite the fact that it will kill people. Theraputics give you maybe 50% better chance of surviving, vaccines give you 2000% better. You've got one side pointing out the truth, and the other side lying that the vaccines will kill you.

Answer 41

anylolone

Want me to give you a list? A long list?

Let's start with "The crowd" by gustave le bon:

www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/445/pg445.html

"Group Mind" by mcdougall?
www.gutenberg.org/files/40826/40826-h/40826-h.htm

"Crowds and Power" by Canetti?
ratical.org/.../Crowds-and-Power-Elias-Canetti.pdf
"Classification and symbols of masses" by the same author?
ratical.org/.../...icationSymbolsMassesCanetti.pdf

"Brutality of evil" by Arendt?
ratical.org/.../...ality-of-Evil-Hannah-Arendt.pdf

Asch with "Studies of Independence and conformity"?

Or anything by goebbels or the AP fact checker Jay Van Bavel on how to exploit it?

I expect the government to make a rational internally consistent case for the vaccines and procedures and follow their own rules, well, if they actually believe their own shit.

Answer 42

goaded

@anylolone If they're on guttenberg, they're so old they're out of copyright. Which one of them uses the term "Mass Formation Psychosis"?

Answer 43

anylolone

That I know, the term, none, that I know, none uses the same term for the exact same phenomena. Some of them being so old as to be out of copyright is exactly the point.
There's still no standard for the term to be used, all of those quote other authors using different terms for the same phenomena.
From mass hysteria, mass psychosis, crowd formation, etc...

But lack of standardization of terminology isn't uncommon for the field.

Answer 44

goaded

@anylolone I'm sure your research included a full range of articles and papers that criticize the ones you posted. Would you post a few links to them?

This gentleman, for example, points out that the idea that crowds are "mad" grew out of fear of crowds by the powerful in 19th century France. He points out that there can be positive as well as negative crowd behaviour.

www.socialsciencespace.com/.../

Sticking together to saves lives, like Bulgaria did in WWII, or like sensible people during a pandemic, is a positive behaviour. Negative behaviour is when you exclude whole groups as "the other", which is what is happening with large parts of the Republican party treating Democrats, their representatives and their votes, as illegitimate.

Answer 45

anylolone

The gentleman then completely ignores most of history if he thinks that idea originated on France at the 18th hundreds.

It's literally ignoring centuries old practices related to the koryos, as one example.

Oh, and there's no dispute that crowd forming can have positive consequences.
That's not what's being argued here.

Answer 46

RolandCuthbert | 4.8K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.

Guru

Uhm, you can't get a hamburger unless you have proper paperwork?

Maybe that is crazy talk.

Here is the truth. Israel has a 91% vaccination rate. They average 2 deaths a day with a population of over 9 million.

Just take one state. Any average size state in the U. S.

Louisiana has a population of 4.5 mil. And averages over 350 deaths from Covid a day.

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1 Person

Juxtapose

4 mo
There are literally places in the world right now where you cannot eat without taking however many shots the government wants you to.

Welcome to medical apartheid.
goaded

4 mo
Because all those black people in South Africa could have simply changed their skin colour and switched sides with a couple of painless injections.
RolandCuthbert

4 mo
Dude, you can order a freaking cheese burger. Stop pretending. I use ubereats, grubhub, doordash, and probably six other apps for ordering food. They do "hands free" drop off to ensure the safety of their drivers.

My clients on the other hand are demanding that me and my staff submit vaccination cards by next week.

And every single person will comply or they will not be working for me
Show All Show Less
RolandCuthbert

4 mo
@goaded Haha!!

They are so dramatic!

My job is forcing me to be vaccinated.

This is racist!!!

LOLx10!!!
Juxtapose

4 mo
@goaded good to know you are all for medical apartheid.
Juxtapose

4 mo
Yeah, guess which color skin is the demographic that is the most vaccine hesitant?

I hope you're ready for all the racial lawsuits!
RolandCuthbert

4 mo
Yeah, the last time I checked, skin color does not cause any effect on beliefs and behaviors. But culture certainly does.

I am not saying that racists deal in facts mind you. Just an fyi. . .

Sufficed to say, any "Black" person who refuses to comply will be fired. . . right along with the "Yellows", and "Whites", and "Grays" and "Browns"," and whatever other colors I have working for me.

Because I am not losing my biggest client over some superstitious nonsense.
goaded

4 mo
"Yeah, guess which color skin is the demographic that is the most vaccine hesitant?"
I know. A lot are in a culture that has good reason not to trust the government (it literally poisoned everyone in Flint), but they are more likely to wear masks instead.

“unvaccinated people who nonetheless wore masks were, indeed, more likely to be Black women.” www.nytimes.com/.../...-vaccines-unvaccinated.html

"those who were neither vaccinated nor masked were more likely to be Republicans, and more likely to be rural, less educated and white" Duh.

Answer 47

Juxtapose

There are literally places in the world right now where you cannot eat without taking however many shots the government wants you to.

Welcome to medical apartheid.

Answer 48

goaded

Because all those black people in South Africa could have simply changed their skin colour and switched sides with a couple of painless injections.

Answer 49

RolandCuthbert

Dude, you can order a freaking cheese burger. Stop pretending. I use ubereats, grubhub, doordash, and probably six other apps for ordering food. They do "hands free" drop off to ensure the safety of their drivers.

My clients on the other hand are demanding that me and my staff submit vaccination cards by next week.

And every single person will comply or they will not be working for me

Answer 50

RolandCuthbert

@goaded Haha!!

They are so dramatic!

My job is forcing me to be vaccinated.

This is racist!!!

LOLx10!!!

Answer 51

Juxtapose

@goaded good to know you are all for medical apartheid.

Answer 52

Juxtapose

Yeah, guess which color skin is the demographic that is the most vaccine hesitant?

I hope you're ready for all the racial lawsuits!

Answer 53

RolandCuthbert

Yeah, the last time I checked, skin color does not cause any effect on beliefs and behaviors. But culture certainly does.

I am not saying that racists deal in facts mind you. Just an fyi. . .

Sufficed to say, any "Black" person who refuses to comply will be fired. . . right along with the "Yellows", and "Whites", and "Grays" and "Browns"," and whatever other colors I have working for me.

Because I am not losing my biggest client over some superstitious nonsense.

Answer 54

goaded

"Yeah, guess which color skin is the demographic that is the most vaccine hesitant?"
I know. A lot are in a culture that has good reason not to trust the government (it literally poisoned everyone in Flint), but they are more likely to wear masks instead.

“unvaccinated people who nonetheless wore masks were, indeed, more likely to be Black women.” www.nytimes.com/.../...-vaccines-unvaccinated.html

"those who were neither vaccinated nor masked were more likely to be Republicans, and more likely to be rural, less educated and white" Duh.

Answer 55

GoodGuyBreakingBad | 7.5K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.

Master

It's all about keeping things for real. no one wants to wear a mask or get a vaccine then they should be held accountable for what they are doing wrong.

React

3 People

Answer 56

joeldalton | 7.5K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.

Guru

Exactly. Testing asymptomatic people is stupid. Vaccine passports are immoral.

React

5 People

Answer 57

DaveToo | 800 opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.

Yoda

He's too fucking ignorant to hold ANY office in the land.

React

5 People

hahahmm

4 mo
But the geniuses running places like Seattle, major Californian cities and NYC have run them into the ground. Let's not look at facts... let's just get emotional.
DaveToo

4 mo
@hahahmm California has the fifth-largest economy IN THE WORLD! That, regardless of the fact that it's been on fire for two freakin' years or more.

Answer 58

hahahmm

But the geniuses running places like Seattle, major Californian cities and NYC have run them into the ground. Let's not look at facts... let's just get emotional.

Answer 59

DaveToo

@hahahmm California has the fifth-largest economy IN THE WORLD! That, regardless of the fact that it's been on fire for two freakin' years or more.

Answer 60

msc545 | 4.6K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.

Master

DeSantis is a guy who thinks that manipulating Covid numbers is a good idea. You figure it out.

React

2 People

Juxtapose

4 mo
Nobody has been innocent with covid numbers man, least of all politicians.
msc545

4 mo
That may be true, but nobody has been as egregious and obvious with it as DeSantis. The guy is a criminal.
Juxtapose

4 mo
I admire the guy, he's one of the only governors to stand up against medical apartheid like this.

He's probably one of the only people I would personally want as president. It used to be Bernie Sanders but then he bent the knee to the Clintons and the authoritarians.
Show All Show Less
Juxtapose

4 mo
I think Biden has been the most egregious himself, he probably added a few extra zeros to some number in an addled dementia episode.
msc545

4 mo
You really should stop with the dementia bit - there is no evidence of it.
anylolone

4 mo
Man, are you really saying "don't trust your lying eyes" here.
msc545

4 mo
@anylolone what is it you have seen that you think means something?
anylolone

4 mo
Constant slurred speech, constant memory faults, constant disorientation, etc.
I'm not referring to bidenisms, those are as old as biden himself.
msc545

4 mo
I didn't realize you were following him around such that you know that all of these things are constant or even know that they actually exist
msc545

4 mo
And even if they do exist you are certainly not qualified to decide that they represent dementia
anylolone

4 mo
That's textbook case. He has been at the center of media since ever.
Juxtapose

4 mo
lol

https://youtu.be/kJYjomMAn4k
msc545

4 mo
As I said, "even if they do exist you are certainly not qualified to decide that they represent dementia". The fact that you think you are makes me question YOUR mentation.
anylolone

4 mo
As I said, that's textbook definition.
Do you want me to quote and link it?

Or, he could get tested, like trump. Maybe he would be classified as a very stable genius. (which doesn't mean what you think it means.)
I find amusing how talk show hosts failed, immensely on the questions that are purposefully easy in order to distract you from the actual test, which is just a basic cognition test.
msc545

4 mo
@anylolone What textbook is that? Dementia is a clinical diagnosis, moron.
msc545

4 mo
Also Trump was not "tested". There is no valid or reliable test.

Answer 61

Juxtapose

Nobody has been innocent with covid numbers man, least of all politicians.

Does DeSantis have a point?

Answer 62

msc545

That may be true, but nobody has been as egregious and obvious with it as DeSantis. The guy is a criminal.

Answer 63

Juxtapose

I admire the guy, he's one of the only governors to stand up against medical apartheid like this.

He's probably one of the only people I would personally want as president. It used to be Bernie Sanders but then he bent the knee to the Clintons and the authoritarians.

Answer 64

Juxtapose

I think Biden has been the most egregious himself, he probably added a few extra zeros to some number in an addled dementia episode.

Answer 65

msc545

You really should stop with the dementia bit - there is no evidence of it.

Answer 66

anylolone

Man, are you really saying "don't trust your lying eyes" here.

Answer 67

msc545

@anylolone what is it you have seen that you think means something?

Answer 68

anylolone

Constant slurred speech, constant memory faults, constant disorientation, etc.
I'm not referring to bidenisms, those are as old as biden himself.

Answer 69

msc545

I didn't realize you were following him around such that you know that all of these things are constant or even know that they actually exist

Answer 70

msc545

And even if they do exist you are certainly not qualified to decide that they represent dementia

Answer 71

anylolone

That's textbook case. He has been at the center of media since ever.

Answer 72

Juxtapose

lol

https://youtu.be/kJYjomMAn4k

Answer 73

msc545

As I said, "even if they do exist you are certainly not qualified to decide that they represent dementia". The fact that you think you are makes me question YOUR mentation.

Answer 74

anylolone

As I said, that's textbook definition.
Do you want me to quote and link it?

Or, he could get tested, like trump. Maybe he would be classified as a very stable genius. (which doesn't mean what you think it means.)
I find amusing how talk show hosts failed, immensely on the questions that are purposefully easy in order to distract you from the actual test, which is just a basic cognition test.

Answer 75

msc545

@anylolone What textbook is that? Dementia is a clinical diagnosis, moron.

Answer 76

msc545

Also Trump was not "tested". There is no valid or reliable test.

Answer 77

Fuentes | 881 opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.

Guru

Desantis should be President!

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3 People

Does DeSantis have a point?

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