Is it ok to deny adopted children a loving home because of parents religious beliefs?

[Ez-Bri-Z]

So what is the end game? The courts and states want to ban abortion, but also want religious freedom to discriminate against other religions. This can't bode well for equality.

Story: A jewish couple was denied the ability to go through a Tennessee state sponsored foster parent certification because they were not Christian.

So many pro choice people say put kids up for adoption, but now those same Christians are denying people the ability to foster/adopt unless they share their religious belief.

What are your thoughts?

[Bluemax]

I'm inclined to say it isn't OK if it is state funded.

That being said, I don't really have a straight "yes" or "no" answer to your question if the agency is *not* state funded.

Should the biological mother have *any* say in the family the child is going to? Any at all? Should the biological mother have the right to insist the family be financially capable of raising the child? I think most would agree the answer is yes. Why shouldn't the biological mother have the right to insist the family be capable of raising the child so that the child doesn't go to eternal damnation in the afterlife (according to that mother's beliefs)? Personally, I don't believe in a God or gods or afterlife, torturous or wonderful, of any kind. But I recognize that other's *do* believe in that. If they believe their child *will* go to hell if not raised a certain way, I could understand why that biological mother *would* insist that the child go to a family which maximizes the chance the child will be raised in a way that avoids that fate.

Should a biological mother have the right to insist that the child go to a family that supports gay rights? Should the biological mother have the right to insist that the child not go to a family of the Branch Davidians? or the Heaven's Gate? Or the idiots who play with snakes? It's a very interesting question. I'll be honest, I'm not as certain the answer as many people answering here.

Is this the only adoption agency in the entire state of Tennessee? Why doesn't the Jewish family go to another adoption agency?

[Ez-Bri-Z]

It is state sponsored in this case.

Separation of church and state should mean that this isn't allowed which is why the law is being challenged.

If the birth mother or father is signing away their rights or have lost them then they should have absolutely no say in where those kids go.

[Bluemax]

"If the birth mother or father is signing away their rights or have lost them then they should have absolutely no say in where those kids go."

Would that include no say in going to parents with a history of child abuse? Parents who are incapable of raising the children?

It's a matter of opinion. I think they *should* have some say, at least insofar as being able to select from adoption agencies that have certain guidelines as to selecting parents, even if those guidelines include exclusion of some based on the prospective adoptive parents' lifestyles.

[Bluemax]

Would you be for outlawing adoption agencies that allow birth mothers to select the parents? Such agencies do exist.

[Bricealan]

Good question Easy Breezy. I was a Sociology (undergrad) at University of Akron, and this was a BIG issue at that time for those of us that were Pro Choice. Even though, I believe the University was Conservative' for the most part, I was 'socially liberal" with regard to Abortion.
Always was a problem finding foster homes or adoptive parents for these kids that were born to "unwed' mothers. As a really young guy, I dated a girl who had a child and gave it up to adoption, BUT who is going to adopt that baby?
My girlfriend in my mid 20's was an adopted child along with her brother, and she, luckily, had WONDERFUL adoptive parents, and I am sure there are many successful stories like hers.

The restrictions, et al (and I understand some of them) for adopting a child are sometimes 'stupid' and probably prevent that child from being put in a perfectly good family setting. I ALWAYS supported abortion, as an option to putting that child in a foster home or putting him/her up for adoption, because the child is in "limbo" for that period of time. '

I don't have a good answer 'Easy"
Bruce

[Ez-Bri-Z]

And thats what drives me crazy about this story. A child who could have a good home now has to wait longer in the system because someone else's religion doesn't match your own. Religion should be inclusive, not weaponized to be able to discriminate against those you don't like.

[Love_girl1290]

For someone that been in the system and lived a living hell and surpassed all bounds. That's wrong. Anyone should be able to become a foster parent and adopted a child if they meet ALL deep background checks and homes checks and prove my worthiness that they can be a foster parent or become a parent of themselves. Having the passion to become a foster/adoptive parent and not do it for the money/benefits or hurt the kids. It should not be based on religion and the religion of the parents. There can be requirements for adopting a child depending on the situation.

[CountessSarah]

Anti-abortionists have never given a shit about the hypothetical children of abortions. Their only motive is controlling sex and bodily autonomy. The children are little more than a means of punishing people for daring to do something they, the anti-abortionists, didn't approve of.
It's no surprise to me that these same types would have some conflicting political position with regards to adoption.

[Still-alive]

https://youtu.be/uHRaUUlD00w

[ChrisMaster69]

It’s just utterly fucking stupid.

the entire care system in pretty much every country going is under funded and or broken.

Then you have places banning abortion but not putting anything in place for the ‘what now with all these babies’

Ireland was / is a prime example of if it can be done wrong it will be.

It just shows how loving religions are, you really have to question their motives at times, is it just money they are after, just control or both.

Basically, they say no to abortion, then no to adoption if religion, if not married straight couple, etc.

Then the same religious lot that have said no to abortion will when their teen comes out as Gay kick them out of the house or kill them.

Personally the last thing you want is anyone devoutly religious being allowed to adopt or influence adoption.

it should be the case of has adopter (s) been screened, are they a viable adopter (s), would the child be safe, secure with them and that’s about it really.

Religion should not come into it at all.

it is fucking barking mad that stuff like this happens.

Common sense does occasionally work itself out … eventually

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-50674761

[HighValue]

So that one obscure place that is not representative of most agencies if you look into it (which I have done) somehow represents most of them now?

That is not the case. This is either an ignorant post or intentionally misleading.

The main problem with adoption agencies that prevents many kids from getting adopted is them discriminating against single men. They will allow single women to adopt quite easily, but the majority of them (at least in CA) try to prevent single men from adopting. The dumbest and most inconsiderate part is that the older kids that many couples and single women don't want to adopt are exactly the ones that single men tend to prefer because they don't want to deal with the infant/toddler ages. Instead, those older children often age out of the system with no family at all because the system often denies single men the ability to adopt.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Since reading comprehension alludes you allow me to assist. Nowhere did I say this was universal, but it has been this way in the past until laws stopped it. This one in Tennessee is allowing it again under the guise of religious freedom.

If you'd like to make a gender related topic, I strongly encourage you to do so and not hijack your thread to throw a pity party of one.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Eludes*

Sorry.. a little drunk right now lmao

[lancecantee]

Well first off, having once lived in Tennessee, it's an absolute Shitshow of a state. I've never had so many power outages in my life, horrible roads, infrastructure, horrible utility problems, its basically developing country of a state, so theocracy problems wouldn't surprise me, let alone double standards to fit their white Christian ideology. Abolishing abortion is all about leverage the right against the left. Abortion is most commonly used for instances of rape or incest. If a woman plans on having two babies, they should abort a rape baby so she can have two with her partner and have a loving family and the same number of people get a chance at life, except qualityof life is better. All other situations are extremely rare.

[VanillaSalt]

Abortion and incest makeup about 1.5% of all abortions in the United States. I’m pro life period.

[Anonymous]

Honestly loving or not, religion matters in some cases. Older children who were brought up a certain way could become confused being taught something different. Parents that gave over their rights but have expectations for their children can most definitely say they would like their child in a christian home or jewish home or Islamic. If a Muslim child aged 6 were placed into foster care and later up for adoption, it would not make sense to start to raise this child as a jew or christian and vice versa. It sucks if the couple could not adopt ANY child. But if it were a specific child and it was based off religion then 🤷🏽‍♀️Other kids need loving homes too

[Ez-Bri-Z]

They agency wouldn't certify them as going through the training for ANY kid under their agency not a specific kid. This is a state sponsored agency at that.

[goaded]

Reading around a bit, it's not even clear if the child they wanted to adopt is Christian. The child is from Florida, so it sounds like they have a specific individual in mind, and they have to have this training to be allowed to adopt. I wonder if this training organisation insists that "proper" foster parents take the children to church regularly.

They should not be getting state funding.

[Telekinetic-Potato]

The endgame is that the people making these rules wouldn't care about that kid if he was on fire. They are democrats and Republicans and one side makes sure its the woman's choice but the other side makes sure the kid gets the parents religious freedom I guess.

Bottom line the kid was never on anyone important's mind, their re-election campaign was.

[CrazyGirl2]

Stupid as all hell! But I as a Jewish woman, I do know that there are some Jewish religious adoption agencies that will not adopt Jewish children to non-Jewish homes. I don’t think it’s that unusual in the religious adoption organizations… stupid, but not unusual!

[RedStiletto88]

I have felt for sooo long religion is about control. I feel so awful for those poor children and the family that wanted to adopt them. They deserve so much better.

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

I think some religious people let their religion go to their head
I had a neighbor who claimed to be born again but she would
turn people in for petty things that were not her business or causing
her a major concern deep down she was a real witch that is why
when she died her funeral was all private, yes these religions go
too far and just cause a Jewish family was not religious they shouldn't
been denied the right to adopt this is a shame for sure.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

I don't think that's right at all. If the potential parents seem like good people who can provide and love those children then they should have a right to adopt those kids regardless of their religion even though I don't think it's ideal if their religion isn't Christianity, nevertheless God's hand isn't shorten.

God has the ability to get everyone the gospel regardless how they are raised.

[Agape93]

Nope. Especially if you're prone to forcing women to birth things they don't want, thus putting kids into over burdened orphanages where they'll never get a loving home. Not even 10% of kids in them get adopted, most eventually age out.

[Kaneki05]

Typical Christian Shit. That of course I don't think is okay and still waiting for people in America to respect The Founding Fathers separation of church of state.

[Kaneki05]

and state*

[humanearth]

I think its freaking stupid. As long as the child is cared for. Why should religious belief matter. That right up there saying two gays can't care for a child.

[Pink2000]

Pro choice people are pro adoption , pro abortion, and pro womens right to choose. It’s the pro birthers who say put it up for adoption knowing damn well they wouldn’t adopt any child.

[JohnK123]

I just don’t like the religions that say all people are included *****COUGH COUGH MORMONS***** just lie
their religion is based off of levels of heaven u can reach but if you’re colored you can’t reach the highest level. Also it’s like 1% of the entire population is colored, and that’s like their basketball team
DiVeRsE

[Deathraider]

Pro life only cares about fetus inside a woman. They pretty much say screw you once a person is born.

Pro life was more about traditional value more than about actual lives.

[Likes2drive]

Pretty stupid, it shouldn’t matter, they are willing to take the kids in , why limit it because of religion

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

If parents want to be picky about something like that, they should find someone to care for their child themselves instead of leaving it up to the state. And if they died, they should have named someone in their will to care for their child.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

It was the state sponsored foster agency itself who denied them saying they had a right to deny them because they are a Christian based agency and the people trying to get set up as foster parents are Jewish

[jshm2]

You're clearly not from a loving home.

Religious differences can be a big problem to overcome in a fostering relationship. Not only because the fostering family need to "learn the religion fast," to make it work. But the kids are expected to a certain lifestyle.

Or to bring it down to your level. It would be like dwarf parents trying to raise a giant child, in a gingerbread house. Not one is comfortable and too much to go wrong.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

And you clearly don't understand anything about unconditional love.

If you can't look past your own religion to ensure a child's best interest then you clearly have no reason to be a parent.

Or to bring it to your level, stop being a dick and thinking only of yourself if you want to be a parent.

I hope that wasn't too complicated for you.

[OddBeMe]

No, if this were true then the Jewish couple would have a major first amendment case in their hands. With the aclu offering to rep them free of charge.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Its absolutely true and they are already headed to court

[OddBeMe]

Oh it’s a Christian foster agency. Way to bury the lede.
www.theguardian.com/.../tennessee-jewish-couple-sues-state-christian-adoption-agency-denies-them-services

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I am not getting notifications for responses, this is so frustrating. I didn't bury the lede. The question is regardless of religion, although in this case I did mention later this specific one had to do with a Christian agency

[OddBeMe]

The issue I guess would whether Tenn or any state can “sponsor” a religious org that can discriminate against people not in their religion. Not that Tenn govt is discriminating per se. It’s close, tho.

[CarolineW]

No. Religion has been the cause of millions of deaths for centuries, and should be banned

[msc545]

What you are describing is just another form of discrimination.

[lakotabebebe]

It's not going to be your baby, so why get mad about its future parents?

[genericname85]

i would reframe the question: is it ok to make children suffer through religious indoctrination and delusional parenting?

[grega239]

Because its a legal right to hold religious beliefs and act accordingly.

It is equality because everyone can fo that

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Not if they are state sponsored. This is a clear mix of church and state which is not allowed

[Jamie05rhs]

My personal opinion is that you lose the right to raise a kid with your own religious beliefs when you give up the responsibility of raising the kid.

[Jamie05rhs]

However, I also believe that a child should be raised with a mother and a father. (I know you probably disagree with me, obviously; and that's okay. Just please know that I have nothing against you personally. This is just a philosophical viewpoint.)

[Anonymous]

It's a hard one but I suspect if if was the other way around Jews would have a problem

[Kiran_Yagami]

Link the story. I'd like to read it.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I posted two of them in my response to loveslongnails, but I am sure you can find this particular one easy enough, just look up Tennessee adoption agency denies jewish parents

[Kiran_Yagami]

"State-funded Christian program" sounds like an oxymoron to me. It's a clear violation of the separation of church and state, which was implemented to prevent situations like these. Either the program needs to allow foster parents of all religious backgrounds, or the state needs to stop funding the program.

[Citizenkirk]

It's never O. K. too deny kids a loving home

[Anonymous]

what do you expect from nazi commie bastards like the US gender biased court system

[skyeee_]

religion should just be fucked at this point

[Djaay]

Just exactly do you beleive religion is? Just curious...

[Recurrence]

Just more hypocrisy in the world

[loveslongnails]

Can you link me to that story?

[Ez-Bri-Z]

www.washingtonpost.com/.../

[Ez-Bri-Z]

www.newsweek.com/adoption-agency-turns-away-jewish-couple-citing-new-controversial-law-1671256

[loveslongnails]

Thanks. I see the law is being challenged in court. It's a really controversial subject. The immediate problem I see is even if the law is upheld, there are many differences within Christianity itself. How does the agency decide "which type of Christian home" do we advocate for, or against?" Are we ok with Methodists but not Lutherans? Catholics but not Jehovah's Witnesses? It's going to get messy.

[bamesjond0069]

You're asking why a private Christian adoption agency discriminated against non Christians? Smh.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

STATE SPONSORED Christian agency.

[bamesjond0069]

State sponsored planned parent hood? Not sure what you're getting at. Maybe the state shouldn't sponsor things that involve religion

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Now you got the right idea. Thats the point.

[bamesjond0069]

Unfortunately our government is so bloated it essentially funds everything. And can you blame literally any business or organization for accepting free money? Pretend it was you. You would say wow i could help so many more kids if i accept this money they want to give... ofc you would.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Except I'm not helping if I'm denying people over their religious beliefs if they are otherwise good parents. They do realize this works every way right? What if people start pushing back against Christians? Refusing them medical treatment because they are not Jewish or gay? This is a stupid and slippery slope.

[bamesjond0069]

Um its not really the same thing. Adoption agencies "customers" are not the parents. Its the children. So they are doing it in their opinion to best serve the child. Business and non profits exist to serve a certain segment and they must do so or they will lose their funding or even be sued. How many christians do you think would stop funding the adoption agency if they gave kids to transexual couples? Is that in the best interest of the kids if they lose their funding? Remember they are there to serve the kids. Forget that they hold personal beliefs they are unfit parents but assume they didn't. They still couldnt do so simply because its not going to serve the mission of helping the most kids possible.

Sometimes and some things work best on large scale... for example facebook. Some things work best on a small scale special collector items custom made for sale. Most charity fits into small scale since the most help you can give is personal. Just giving some money or a can of food which is now more large scale is much less helpful than personally offering a homeless person a spare room and a job at your small retail shop. But only a specific person can offer that specific help to the specific right person thats a good fit for.

So yes i think many smaller adoption agencies that cater to different things is ideal. Many christians might not want to give a child up to be adopted by shintoists or some other religion as well. So its not such a simple thing. You also forget jews have their own organizations and are quite organized and exclusive themselves. They would not want to lose this ability either.

[Anonymous]

Did you mean pro-life, not pro-choice?

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Sure did! No angry typing for me next time lol

[Opinion Owner]

Ah ok, no problem! lol

[jimmy2]

It should mot be that way

[Gwenhwyfar]

That’s terrible!

[Dargil]

Such as...

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Such as what? The actual story. Its real

[Dargil]

Such as what beliefs?

[driven159]

no it is not

[Anonymous]

Uh, no. Not at all.

[Jouth]

jew bad lol