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Why do so called pro-lifers (forced birthers) want the government to stay out of their church but want the government to stop abortions? (Page 2)
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Maybe they should support the mother and the baby like a crisis pregnancy center.
That is a really good question.
Are these types called hypocrites?
We want the Gov't not to restrict religion and we choose life over death. If people are going to have sex be responsible . Don't punish the baby for a mistake. All we want is for people to be responsible for their actions and no Gov't strong handed tactics.
Because it's not a religious issue
How is it forced if she chooses to have sex?
So then we should pass a law that forces the father to have a vasectomy then if the mother can't have an abortion how about that?
How about not. Forced sterilization is a human rights violation.
vasectomies are not forced sterilizations; you are just bitter that you are being met with the same moral arguments about forcing to interfere in the lives the women the same way with men.
It is if it is part of a law. I am not bitter I am just logical.
Nope, it is called a compromise.
I don't compromise with terrorists.
You don't compromise with your own kind of trump supporters.
I don't support Trump. I didn't even vote for him.
if you are anti-abortion then you support trump because the reason roe v wade fell is because he placed extremist judges in the supreme court.
I don't have to support Trump to be anti-abortion. Trump has been pro-choice before getting into office.
I didn't believe him when he said he was now anti-abortion
oh so you admit trump has been pro-rape and forced birth from the beginning, nice to see a trump supporter admit it.
Just like Joe Biden was racist when he voted for busing because he didn’t want his children going to school in a jungle! (Black kids)
@Asker are you reading what I am writing or are you talking to somebody else?
Forced pregnancy is a gross violation of human rights and it is happening in over 15 states in the United States at the moment.
Forced pregnancy and forced birth is just as bad as forced sterilization, of which mandatory vasectomies would not be since they can be reversed.
Mandating a medical procedure is a violation of the Nuremberg Codes. Even if it is a reversible procedure. Banning abortion isn't forced pregnancy. As women still have a choice of having sex or not. Especially when almost all of those 15+ states you site have an exception for rape.
Banning abortion is absolutely forced pregnancy and is a gross violation of human rights. That is prosecutable at the Hague, regardless of whether that nation has ratified the proper treaties or not. That is why the Romanians executed their equivalent to our president on Christmas Day 1989.
Nuremberg Codes are not US law, so mandating medical procedures would not violate any laws here.
So you’re wrong about all of this.
Nuremberg is international law. Also we have informed consent laws here. So it is essentially the same as having that code as US law. Forced pregnancy is when you force someone to have sex. Not when you ban abortion. By your logic banning robbery is forced commerce.
You have ZERO logic. Nuremberg Codes are NOT US law so your argument that mandated medical procedures violate the laws do not hold any water.
When you ban abortion, you force women to remain pregnant. In addition to forced pregnancy being a gross violation of human rights, that is also RAPE. Force doesn’t have to be physical. Force can also be legislative, as is the case with forced pregnancy laws. Forced pregnancy and forced birth are the exact same thing – both are rape, that is happening in at least 15 states and each one of these states are gross human rights violators.
I just said that we have our own laws that prohibit forced medical procedures like the Nuremberg Codes. It is called Informed Consent laws in the US.
Also remaining pregnant is not forcing someone to get pregnant. Thusly it is not forced pregnancy.
If a pregnant person wants an abortion and is no longer permitted to, then that person is FORCED to remain pregnant. The definition for that is FORCED PREGNANCY. You’re not any good at this at all. Forced pregnancy is absolutely happening here. You want to dismiss that. Not happening on my watch.
Forced pregnancy is when you have sex with a woman until you get her pregnant. That is a forced pregnancy. Telling a woman who has had sex and got pregnant that she is going to have to live with the consequences of her actions is not a forced pregnancy.
If you were a heroin addict and you took some heroin and had a bad trip. Then you go to the hospital and ask for narcan; but they're like no the state banned it. You wouldn't say that you are experiencing a forced heroin high. Because at the end of the day you took the heroin. So you did it to yourself. You are responsible for your own actions.
Banning abortion is the most irresponsible thing anyone can do. In many instances, having that abortion IS taking responsibility for one’s actions.
Banning pregnancy would be more appropriate here since pregnancy is life-threatening 100% of the time. Pregnancy can be more akin to a disease.
Again, force does NOT have to be physical in order for a human rights violation to happen. Legislating that people be FORCED to remain pregnant and forced to give birth, which is 100% happening in this country, is the EXACT SAME THING. Forced pregnancy, whether by physical force OR by legislative fiat, is a gross violation of human rights and forcing someone to remain pregnant is actually a more gross violation of the Nuremberg Codes (remember what you said about informed consent?). Forced pregnancy is absolutely happening here in 15 US states, including in my own state!
Are they murdering people in the church
What if it's a choice between your life and the kid's life? If it's a choice on whethet you live or die, you should have a say in it, no doubt. Look up ectopic pregnancies, the kid will die either way and will take the woman with it if it isn't removed.
I'm against elective abortion, not life or death. And that's not a choice between mom and baby, the baby is going to die regardless they can't survive in a fallopian tube
Ok. Good for you.
Awww you thought that was convincing, bye heaux
Lol. Are you chickening out on that? Someone's scared to stand up for what they believe in.
Chickening out on what?
Lol both sides are very hypocritical
I hear you let chips fall where they may
Hypocrisy
Who is Hypocritical? Political significant faction holds those particular position in the USA.
For example the people yelling loudest for the separation of church & state are on the other side from the people who would prefer the them to be more entwined as they had been for the first 150+ years under the Constitution.
@monorprise It just means you wanna interfere with people's point of view and try to put laws for it while you want the government to interfere with your churches. That's hypocrisy. So would it be fair if pro choice tries to get the government to punish force birthers as well? No? Then that's hypocrisy.
@Aiko_E_Lara Can you clarify your point?
I assume your talking about abortion, how is it inconsistent for:
People who support laws against murder and believe life begins at conception to also support laws against the murder of that life?
Perhaps your referring to the opposition to forced vaccination, which is the process by which a non-living and decidedly non-human virus is forcefully put into people's body. This is of course a incomparably different situation from that of a person choosing to have sex and a Human life naturally resulting from that act.
For it the forced injections lacks the qualities of originating choice, being natural, alive, and being human.
As such technically forcing a person to become pregnant is taking away the originating choice, and possibly the natural aspect, but retains the other to qualities of creating an innocent human life.
This is not being done by any state.
Hypothetically i can't see why it would be justifiable given our present situation. That said if you ask me to speculate it is possible where the only alternative to said policy is to accept an extinction level event.
It has anything to do with abortion since the topic is about pro life or force birther.
You're the one viewing it as murder however we have different point of view. So just because you say it is murder, that doesn't mean it really is. You view it as a human being so you give it human rights but we don't view it the same way as you do. Objectively a fetus is a fetus and a human is objectively a human. Which is why it is called such. If you like to say that a fetus is the same as a human then I can also say that a fetus is the same as a sperm. Now you can give your scientific facts about what a fetus is for you to consider it as a human being but science never said it is a human being otherwise. Its just people like you trying to use the word science to make their claims seem more valid and factual but really it isn't. Because if it was really true then there are other facts about a fetus science provides that you don't use which can give us the conclusion to say it isn't a human being. at least just "yet". So with that being said, saying it is murder it's your point of view. In our point of view it isn't murder so again if you like to put laws on people's point of view, then that would just make you a supremacist or a hypocrite. So which is why I said if you like trying to push your views into the law book, how about we also try to put people like you in jail for forcing a woman to stay pregnant and give birth? Or in short if you like to put pro-choice in jail then we can also put pro-lifes in jail. You not liking the idea just makes you a big hypocrite
Sure you can say it is an innocent being and it hasn't done nothing except for the fact that it is causing the mother pain in her womb which costs her a lot of energy and being unwanted.
Also which is why I value a human life over a fetus life. I'm talking about the woman being a human life. There are many cases where keeping an unwanted child don't really end well for the mom and specially for the child suffering with depression and malnutrition. All you pro birthers care about is as long as it is born but you don't even do anything about them in the end. I don't see many of you adopting children right now but all I hear are excuses. A lot of them don't like to be forced to adopt one yet there they are forcing a pregnant woman to give birth which is another way to prove the hypocrisy.
@Aiko_E_Lara Objectively a human fetus has entirely human DNA, and is behaving as every other human in the history of the species has behaved. That makes it as human as Me or you, and merely at a particular stage of life every last one of us has at one point had to go thou like infancy, childhood teenage years, etc..
This is a scientific fact, the only distinguishing characteristic from all other human stages of life in its requirements of a particular kind of shelter and food. Requirements which are hardly distinguishing at all considering we can require near identical treatment at later sages of our own lives as well.
Thus your reason for dehumanizing them is entirely entirely arbitrary, based upon some particular social or cultural value that permits the killing of human before a particular age or right of passage.
Granted this is not unprecedented, the Roman law after all allowed the killing of humans by their family patriarch until such time that they became the family patriarch. So if you want such a rule fine, but don't dehumanize the person your killing. Don't claim your not killing a person.
Finally recognize that we too are entitled to our own judgement and state law on the matter. Murders has always been the domain of the State in this country and therefore the State must have every right to prohibit it at whatever stage of human life its people choose.
And I can also say it is objectively a human sperm as well and it has a DNA of a human. So is a human egg and they are both still considered living things. So what that also makes it a human as well? No? Then I don't consider a fetus a human too despite being a living thing. So you are comparing something that is born versus something that isn't born. The fact that it isn't born is also what makes it a difference. A prepubescent kid, an infant, a toddler or whatever you like to compare, they all belong in the born category which is what makes them a human being but a fetus is not born and that is also a scientific fact though. No one can "normally" see a fetus with a naked eye, no one remembers what being a fetus is like just like no one remembers what being a fetus is like. Also unlike newborns, no one remembers seeing you or greeting you as a fetus with their own naked eyes. They are also scientific facts. And of course you're wondering why that point of view is still used in modern culture with developed Society such as the other parts in USA with other moral laws as well. And you are wondering why nobody celebrates conceptions day instead of birthdays other than certain cultures but the mainstream ones. And birth certificate is much more important than conception certificate.
You can keep saying it is a human life but that doesn't convince anyone else whos their views on those scientific facts I mentioned. So you are just cherry picking on a point of view for you to consider it a human being and to demonize anyone for having a different point of view just like monopolizing that discussion which is why every argument you give resorts to calling it a human being and calling anyone evil and should be jailed for disagreeing with you while ignoring the other perspectives of anyone.
Summary here, you consider it a human life because you consider it a particular stage in life just like infants and toddlers or whatever but we don't consider it a human life because we don't consider it a particular stage in life because of the FACT that it isn't born. But only your point of view matters like a supremacist you are.
@Aiko_E_Lara Sperm and Egg are merely haploid cells, they are not capable of life nor are they are distinguishable from the parent genetically.
If they combine with anther haploid do they become a unique individual if their combination is viable.
Then a fetus is literally called a fetus or embryo. If you say they are a unique individual and not comparable to sperms and eggs then I can say that they are also Unique Individuals and not comparable to human beings. They are just their own specific kind. You see, your conclusion is as long as they combine, they are now humans. That still doesn't make you correct because anyone can also say as long as it is born, it would make it a human. Your point of view is not the only thing that matters here