Why do so called pro-lifers (forced birthers) want the government to stay out of their church but want the government to stop abortions?

[Anonymous]

Who are so called forced birthers to demand women adhere to their religious demands regarding abortion, but Evangelicals refuse to allow the government to interfere in their own affairs regarding abuse and racism, is it because they feel women should be punished for enjoying sex? Also telling me I support murder will not deter me from asking this question, why do you support the forced birth of women and then leaving her with no support to raise the child on her own?

[Anonymous]

It's about control, not morals or ethics. These people want the United States to be a "Christian Nation", a theocracy, something it was never intended to be. Fun thing is about a theocracy is that it's ran by "God" and who will be the ones to convey what "God" wants? Well, you're in luck because they claim they talk to this "God" on a regular basis and have visions, so they can tell us what "God" wants...

Problem with that, though, is that that could just put them in power.

Which is more likely? A magical, immortal, all knowing, all powerful being is taking the time to speak directly and only to them, or that they are as power hungry as those currently in power?

That's what it's about, it's not about life or goodness, or God or rightness... It's about POWER.

[Asker]

exactly my point, I bet you that if a catholic wants to make Catholicism the legal and only religion in the USA, they would be up in arms about it and threaten a war but somehow since they are evangelicals then it makes it ok.

[monorprise]

Technically theses united States was also not intended to be a single "nation" but rather a collection of states who had consented to the limited terms of a Federal Constitutional Republic.

The 1st amendment was explicitly written for the propose of insuring that same Federal Government did NOT get involved with the ALREADY ESTABLISHED STATE Religious laws.

That the unaccountable and lawless Federal politicians in black robes over 100+ years later suddenly decided in the 1920s the 1st amendment actually forbid State Government involvement in religion is one of the great betrayals of our Constitutional rights.

Turning that Amendment into a weapon against the very thing it was explicitly written to protect.

You don't have to be religious to appreciate what the lawless federal Court did.

[Anonymous]

They want the government out of the church but they want to inject their religion into government policy. Hypocrites all the way around.

[Asker]

I will quote another user, when they say they want smaller government, they really mean small enough to fit into your bedroom.

[MzAsh]

They’re hypocrites plain and simple.

[monorprise]

Who are hypocrites?

[Exterminatore]

@msash

Not looking for a debate here but an open and honest conversation.

I continually hear about abortions being connected to women’s rights. Why is this? Does the fetus have no rights?

Clearly some states if not federal law recognize that the fetus does have rights. If a woman is pregnant and murdered for example, then her attacker can be tried for 2 murders. However if a woman wants to kill the fetus, then it’s ok. This seems like a bit of a contradiction.

It also seems to me that it places women in the position of God, in that they can choose which fetus lives and dies. That does not seem like a right regarding their body to me.

Can you please help me understand why I continually hear the term “woman’s rights” in regards to this matter, and weren’t the woman’s rights in almost all cases of pregnancy honored when she had the ability and legal right to choose and use roughly 15 different methods of birth control and not get pregnant in the first place?

What some seem to see as a violation of woman’s rights I see as a violation of the developing child’s rights as the woman waived her right to use the tools available not to get pregnant, and then wants to avoid responsibility after waiving her rights. Rape to include incest is an astronomically low cause of unwanted pregnancies.

Again, not trying to be argumentative, I’m just trying to understand the rationalization here. I guess my question is, how is this a woman’s right, and how is it a violation of women’s rights?

[MzAsh]

I don’t believe the fetus should have any rights that the woman who is carrying it doesn’t allow. If she wants the fetus to have rights, that’s up to her.

[Exterminatore]

Why shouldn’t the fetus have rights?

[Exterminatore]

So essentially what your saying is that abortion is a woman’s right and the essence of that right is not about her so much as it is exerting her will on the unborn.

[MzAsh]

It would take away from the woman’s rights.

[Exterminatore]

Why should women in this instance have that right when takes the right to life from others? It’s not a matter of self defense or something of that nature. I can see it if the birth placed the mothers life in jeopardy.

Why is it that they should have this right when it unfairly cancels the rights of another?

Simply so they can retain that right?

[MzAsh]

Women were designed with greater responsibility in the matter of pregnancy, birth, nursing, raising children. Therefore they should have greater authority.

[monorprise]

@MzAsh Why then should a man allow you any rights then?

[Exterminatore]

@MzAsh

Wouldn’t correct use of authority over their bodies be no getting pregnant when they don’t intend to?

If they have greater responsibility, shouldn’t they ensure they don’t get pregnant knowing the possible undesirable outcomes?

[MzAsh]

There are options. But it’s up to them if they choose those options or not.

[EndGame55]

So as a woman you have the right to LIFE liberty and the pursuit of happiness. AND you also want the right to be irresponsible and held without consequences for your action. Yet in every other facet of life. People should be responsible.
.

[MzAsh]

We didn’t ask to be the only gender who gives birth. That’s just how we were designed.

[Exterminatore]

@MzAsh

So to sum up your thoughts on abortion being a woman’s rights issue, you feel that since women didn’t ask to be the only gender that gives birth, and that women were designed with greater responsibility in the matter of pregnancy and care of children, therefore a woman should have greater authority over being pregnant, up to the right to kill the developing child within her even if her irresponsibility caused the pregnancy. You also feel it is ok to make the developing baby pay with its life for the mothers irresponsibility because not allowing women to do so would be unfairly restricting their rights and that the developing baby has no rights whatsoever to life if the mother thinks it should die.

Is that summed up correctly as to why you believe abortion is a woman’s right?

[AssholeNumberOne]

@Exterminatore There is no 100% foolproof way of birth control, so it's not her fault if she got pregnant. And you never ask how someone got pregnant because it's rude, yknow? It could have been unplanned, and then she's in an embarrassing situation. Not to mention rape.
Anyway, I see your argument, but think of it this way. If you were in the worst case scenario, what would you like the law to be like? Let's imagine you're a girl, a teen like me, who was raped and got pregnant, and definitely doesn't want to go through the burden of pregnancy and the social shunning it brings, OR the torture of birth, whether it kills you or not, which is very likely among young mothers. That's how I see it, and came to realize I would not want to be denied reproductive care like abortion or embryo adoption, despite being pro life before. When I realized that's not how I would want to be treated, I decided not to treat others that way. That is why I am pro choice.

[monorprise]

@MzAsh Babies didn't ask to entirely subject to a woman's personal convenience whether they live or die.

[Exterminatore]

@asshole

It’s not her fault if she got pregnant? Who decided to have sex?

You’re right, not her fault. Immaculate conception.

What about rape you say. That accounts for 1% of abortions.

www.usatoday.com/.../

Bottom line, you want the freedom of sex without the responsibility.

Someone stole my car, not fair to me. So I stole someone else’s to make it better. That’s no different than: I was raped, not fair to me, so I went to the doctor and had them kill my unborn child to make it better.

When is it ok to murder your unborn child?

I will not debate this with you. I’m not interested in an argument. Only interested in discussing with @MzAsh as to why this is a women’s rights issue.

[MzAsh]

Yes, basically although I do understand why it bothers people, and I think people have the right to their own feelings and opinions, but I also believe in a fundamental that if it’s not your pregnancy then it’s not your decision.

[Exterminatore]

@MzAsh

So in truth, this is not really a woman’s rights issue. That’s the term being used to invoke the emotions of the supposedly “oppressed” women in America. To stir sentiment among those who support it or are fence riders.

This is no different than the word games played with homosexuality. Woke folk love to say: “if you’re against homosexuality it’s because your full of hate and a biggot.” Ok, I’m against obesity too, but I don’t hate fat people. I can choose to not approve of someone’s lifestyle without hating them. No one is walking around saying: “if you’re in favor of homosexuality because you are hateful against Christians and intolerant of them.” They can equally disapprove of my lifestyle. Doesn’t mean they hate me. This and calling abortion a woman’s right issue are both cognitive distortions and intentionally playing word games to illicit certain reactions. It’s disingenuous as I see it.

What this is really about is wanting self gratification without responsibility.

I think everyone, regardless if they can get pregnant or not has the right to weigh in regarding murder. That’s also another tool used to silence dissenters as I notice no one says that to men who are in favor of abortion.

You do understand this is defined as evil right? Regardless of all the other factors. You are condoning and endorsing murder by your own words. Does this not concern you. Do you really feel responsibility free sex is more important than not murdering? Are rights and privileges more important than justice and righteousness?

Thank you for explaining your views. Though I cannot agree with you I appreciate you explaining the connection between womens rights and abortion. I think most who are supportive of abortion lack the candid honesty you do to call things what they are. I think they are unaware of their own motivations and get caught up in the “what about rape or incest or whatever” argument about this matter but simply won’t just say they condone murder.

[MzAsh]

I don’t tend to get caught up in labels that way. Anyone can call it whatever they want including murder or evil. I don’t think of it that way and I don’t care if others do or not. I’m intolerant of strangers who think or behave as if their opinion should matter to anyone else they don’t even know.

[EndGame55]

@AssholeNumberOne "There is no 100% foolproof way of birth control" oh but there is!! There totally is. It's called abstinence!

[Exterminatore]

@endgame

Not only that but visectomy/hysterectomy.

Not that I am by any means proud of this and not to be crass, but I used to be a major man whore. I’ve been with over 300 women. Many of them I had sex with a lot more than once. I ALWAYS used a condom with spermicidal jelly on it EVERY time. Out of those girls I had unprotected sex with only 4 of them. My wife, ex wife and 2 girlfriends who I was monogamous with and in a serious relationship with. Those 4 were all on the pill. NOT 1 pregnancy with all this. Not 1 STD either.

I am positive most unwanted pregnancies occur because of lack of discipline and unprotected sex.

Rape only accounts for 1% of pregnancies that end in abortion.

Some say: “what about an accident.” There are no accidents in 99% of cases of unwanted pregnancies. We all know how women get pregnant. We all know how to prevent it. We have many very effective methods of inexpensive birth control, many of which one can obtain free in certain places.

But what about when she’s on the pill and gets pregnant? Oh…the immaculate conception. I’ve cum in those 4 girls I mentioned hundreds of times apiece. Not one issue. The chances of that happening are rare. Very, very rare. It’s 99% effective. When it doesn’t work is almost always because someone was undisciplined and forgot to take it or was on antibiotics and just went ahead anyway. It’s almost always due to user error.

So, in the vast majority of other cases involving unwanted pregnancies it’s almost always due to lack of discipline in either abstaining or using birth control and using it properly.

However, people want to give in to the heat of the moment or be lazy about their “reproductive rights” and then escape the consequences knowing full well before how babies are made and how to prevent them.

Abortion is simply a form of birth control for the lazy who care not to do due diligence in this matter.

So, murder away your errors America, instead of just being cautious beforehand.

[EndGame55]

@Exterminatore completely agree man. I'm 40 with no kids because I choose not to have any and I choose to be responsible. I also took the necessary PRE-cautions. To prevent what everyone knows the cause and effect of such actions.

[Exterminatore]

@end

Yeah brother it’s real simple to avoid unwanted pregnancies. The problem is “condoms don’t feel as good.”

My response is tough, you don’t need to use abortion as a birth control method. The Supreme Court Multiple states agree.

[Echosoul]

@Exterminatore Foetuses are incapable of caring one way or the other. At this stage they're just a few cells.

[Exterminatore]

@echo

That’s profoundly untrue.

51/2 - 6 weeks it has a heartbeat.

At 12 weeks it is conclusive they feel pain. What is inconclusive is if they feel pain before that.

lozierinstitute.org/.../

Saying they don’t care one way or another is silly. It has a heart beat. It’s alive.

I will not play silly words like with what has been done with fetus and it just being a “clump of cells.” You are just a clump of cells too.

The bottom line is using caustic chemicals to burn a baby to death inside the womb, or using sheep shears to cut off limbs and remove them or using forceps to punch a hole in their skull and suck their brains out with a vacuum cleaner like instrument is barbaric. It is particularly wrong because it’s an attempt to transfer responsibility onto to the fetus who is alive and can feel pain in post cases.

I will not debate this with you.

Murder is wrong. @MzAsh is also wrong to try to use the word murder as a euphemism for abortion as she did earlier.

Anyone who thinks this:

https://abort73.com/abortion/abortion_pictures/

And this:

https://www.abortionno.org/abortion-photos/

And most especially this: (see week 24):

www.campaignlifecoalition.com/abortion-photos-warned

Is ok and is a right and is a right women should have is abominable. It is a grave wrong and sin to participate in such activities and to support them in any manner.

I will not debate this with you.

I suggest you take a long look into your soul and realize if you support or participate in this that you need Jesus because your heart is wicked. So wicked that you’d have unrestrained sexual pleasure and support committing atrocities such as this so that nothing gets in the way of your pleasure. Such people who support this are selfish and hard hearted and cruel.

[DJB72]

The problem isn't genuinely pro-life people OR Christians. The problem is anti-abortion self-righteous fucktards.

I'm pro-life. I believe in the Bible. Particularly the part that says I should get the plank out of my own eye.

The Bible DOES say that a child in the womb is sentient. John the Baptist was in utero when Mary went to stay with Elizabeth. Scripture says when Mary arrived he leaped in his mother's womb. There are references to God anointing people for their life while He knits them together in the womb in both Old and New Testaments.

I firmly believe that we're not, as Christians, called to judge others.

I made enough mistakes that needed Christ to die in my place without requiring anyone else to be perfect.

I do believe in a fallen world God doesn't expect us to be perfect. That's the point of the Gospel - we're not perfect but He is.

So He won't judge us any more harshly for abortion than any other sin that separates us from God.

I don't believe we're capable of getting through this life on our own. We tend to screw things up a lot. When God initially made Man the being He made was perfect. The Fall separated us from God and corrupted all creation. It brought death, disease and suffering into the World. Things God never dreamed of became possible - rape, child abuse, extramarital sex, fetal abnormalities, sickness and ultimately death.

A fallen world obviously comes up with a fallen solution - abortion.

As a Christian I can't condone aborting a healthy baby, but I can't condemn it either. It's not my place. But if I'm asked - as by this question - then I'll answer. The fault is that we are, in our fallen state, too arrogant to admit we need God. The result is a failing that leads to the deaths of children in a genocidal level every day. Throughout history as a species we've done this quite regularly. It's alarmingly familiar. In the old testament we had worship of Moloch that resulted in the "worshippers" burning their children alive. The Inca and Aztec peoples are well documented in the use of human, even child sacrifice. Baal worship, Satanism, more, all feature killing children to worship that deity.

Now we sit at a time when instead of using sex to worship a false god we worship sex itself. Much as had started to happen in the final decades of the Roman empire 2000 years ago, the evidence of which can be seen in Pompeii and Herculaneum.

Instead of calling it child-sacrifice, we call it abortion.

The honourable thing for a person claiming to be Christian to do would be to attempt to prevent abortion being necessary by ensuring a single income can sustain a family irrespective of how many children are born in an average 25 years fertility after marriage the way it was possible pre-world war one only with more children surviving to adulthood.

[Ill_made_Knight]

The people that want to tell a doctor what treatment he may, or may not recommend to his patient, and deny that patient the right to the best course of treatment for her well being are the SAME people that refuse to budge ONE inch on common sense gun regulation in the faceof mass murder after mass murder... many of these resulting in piles of dead school children.
Their morality is selective. They have an agenda and will toss up the Jesus shield when it's the right tool to get what they want.
In this country you are supposed to be able to practice whatever religion you like, or none at all free from persecution.
These people want to BE the official religion of a country that has in it's founding document the statement that there will be NO official state religion.
They want to fundamentally change what America is.
Theocratic dictators hand picked by god itself. You'll have to take their word for it though, because god would never speak to anyone as clearly unworthy as you.

[littlepig2002]

Well said!

[Straight2thepoint]

This subject is good to have. As we work out the dilemmas to understand life, we will soon will understand each other.

Imagine urself further into the future. Were 10% of the population is straight and prosecuted for their beliefs. As time goes on, they live away into seclusion.

the 90% only find themselves depleting as a whole. Even with lab manufacturing of babies. they would need a straight male and female to assist. Forced to do what is asked of. As they proclaim. (For the well-being of society!)

The 90% soon will fall into its normal state. People then start wanting what they considered wrong. As they become the forbidden sin. The 10% raises to 99% over night.

Then years pass and we return to this question.

"Why do so called pro-lifers want the government to stay out of their church but want the government to stop abortions?"

It's not the pro-lifers nor the abortioners. It's government. When they are given power over all. They control life on all spectrum of society. It's a game they play. Wake up we both have a common foe.

[schittywok]

All sides and both sides are aimed at division. All Demtards have in this day and age are reproductive rights and gun control. It is so evil in Libtards minds that guns are used to off kids in mass killings. However, your kid or yourself have a better chance of dying by two lightening strikes and being knocked off the dock and drowning in a lake. At the same time, you bitch because fire was fought with fire. Where you, the Libtards want and support abortion up to and including the day of birth, for no other reason then you were too fucking lazy to put a rubber on, take a pill, get a vasectomy, or get your tubes tied. You just say, "Well, that isn't true." Shit, the proof is there. Libtards were denied the offing of babies up to day of birth in a bill that didn't pass. All you Libtards being in a hissy fit should really have a sit down with your Mother. You wouldn't exist if she didn't take your life seriously. If you have that sit down, you might very well find out your Mom could have offed you due to whatever reasons you see fit, but she didn't. Well, shit, fire was re released unto you. Now you have Republicans who say rape and incest or health of mother does not matter anymore. So, then the remaining question is? Which side is more evil? Then more importantly you are supposed to wake up. If your Mom didn't off you? For no other reason than your Mom and your Old Man fucked recklessly and did not expect you? The almighty Johnny or Suzy come lately scenario? You wouldn't even exist to have this prissy Libtard mindset in the first place.

[schittywok]

Then you idiots fight back with more fire and vitriol. Now as a result of you needing to take responsibility you threaten to fake rape and incest. Fantastic. It's just another lame ass excuse for Libtards to fuck wantonly because they are too fucking lazy to move to a state where you have everything you want.

[UCrayCray]

OMFG. Women are not carrying pregnancies for 9 months to just abort the day before birth for no reason. 🤦🏻‍♀️
Can you honestly say you have known a woman that has done this? Because if you do, you’ll be the first person I have ever asked that can say the have.

[schittywok]

@UCrayCray They do it routinely. There's a thing called a garbage can. Instead of taking the baby to a Emergency Room entrance, or a Fire Department, they simply take it and throw it in their trash just like they were taking out the Recyclables or Trash.

[UCrayCray]

“They do it routinely. There's a thing called a garbage can…”
That’s not abortion

[schittywok]

@UCrayCray You are right, if it ain't abortion, then it's murder.

[BCA6010]

Abortion is not, and should not be treated as birth control especially when an abundance of preventative alternatives are available, especially when narrowing it down to pleasure-driven sexual intercourse like you're specifying. Actions have consequences, and one person's pleasure does not justify another one's pain, or in this case, execution.

Abortion is also not exclusively a religious issue, as it is a biological fact that sexually reproducing organisms begin life at fertilization, which modern technology can actually observe in a controlled setting.

[Cherry234]

I feel the same way. It's like you stated - that they want to punish women for enjoying sex but that they also only care about their rights and freedoms while violating women's rights. These people really piss me off and irritate me. This is exactly why I don't like forced birthers.

[Cherry234]

By the way I'm glad I live in a state where I easily have abortion access and not one of those backward red states. I'm addressing this to you asker.

[Hannajenky]

Conservatives have no morals or values. Pro-lifers are so brainwashed it’s not worth discussing the issues with them because they have no values or morals. They believe a guy with a beard in the sky is telling them what to do. They are fucking fruitcakes.

[MountAverage]

Do you not understand that this type (or pretty much any type of argument) doesn't work in the abortion debate? The whole premise of forced-birthers is that a fertilized egg should have more rights than an actual person. As long as that is their premise, there is no common ground. They simply decided to use this completely insane premise for their argument, and that's the end of all rational debate.

We need to stop caring what they have to say and just step over them and fight their cause. They are our enemies and we need to treat them as such and protect women's rights.

[littlepig2002]

Absolutely correct!

[Agape93]

Because it's always been about controlling people not under their sway already.

[Asker]

I agree and if they would, they would support stoning the non christians for daring to reject their version of God.

[Agape93]

Yeap. They're welcome to try, I am a damn good shot

[Asker]

yup, me too; they are not the only ones that have weapons, the difference is that I don't show off on social media like an idiot.

[Anonymous]

I believe in pro-choice, but it surprises me how few people seem to understand the other sides point of view. Some people are never going to not see that lump of cells as a baby, or an abortion as the ending of that babies life. I mean, that is kind of the whole point of the procedure.

I usually dont talk about my opinions on the matter because I tend to piss off both sides. I definitely think it should be legal, but I also think most pro-choice people perform some mental gymnastics to avoid viewing that lump of cells as a person

[NaultD]

The evangelical Christian community are a death cult. They are actively praying for the end times and need brownie points to appease god. Advocating for the unborn is also the easiest arm chair approach getting brownie points.

[annabananna]

Pro life individuals believe that a fetus is life with a soul and it is murder where people choice people do not believe a fetus is anything worth saving. If you believed a fetus to have a life and soul than you would be against it too. It is literally the same as killing a baby or human for many pro lifers.

[Smoke-n-Growls]

Because forced birthers want women to suffer and die. Period. There's no logic, reason, or compassion behind them.

They want to see women forced to carry headless fetuses, see minors and young girls forced to birth products of rape, and see all women live in fear and die due to their (forced birther's) religious fetish.

[Stoner710]

First off I’m an agnostic deserve it so I don’t really care of you follow some sort of Christiantic belief I’m pro life because I don’t think you have the right to kill something that isn’t done anything Bad or immoral biology is what is forces women to give birth you must do not have a right to go against nature and killed their unborn baby children

[Adam1978]

It's always about enforcing their beliefs on others. Otherwise we would leave it open as an option prolife wouldn't use the service. It's existance wouldn't be a problem. There is no one on the pro choice side that wants to force a person to do it after all. We can recommend it in some circumstances but in the end we leave it up to them to choose their life.

[USLegionary]

Are you asking why Christians, Muslims, Mormons and others hold life sacred and as voters don't want their government committing mass genocide on babies like King herod?

[UCrayCray]

@uslegionary
But the Pharaoh and King Harod were targeting babies that were already born.
Abortion doesn’t do that.
The comparison drawn in this meme is absurd.

[USLegionary]

@UCrayCray yeah those babies were given the chance to live.
Would you be in favour of abortion if the unborn was the wrong sexuality, race, gender, transgender, height etc?

[UCrayCray]

“yeah those babies were given the chance to live.” So you admit that the comparison was absurd? Good
Ultimately, I am in favor of people making their own choices for their own lives. While I don’t necessarily agree with those reasons, it’s not my choice to make.

[USLegionary]

@UCrayCray murder is wrong.

[UCrayCray]

Murder is wrong.
But that’s not what we’re talking about here.

[monorprise]

Why Do Pro-choicer (Baby killers) feel their personal convenience after having sex is "a health issue", justifying the killing of an innocent person?

Since when is murder qualify as "health" care? What is healthy about death?

[EmbraceThePain]

I'm pro-life but not really religious. So, I think that those who are pro-life just don't want to be involved in abortion, through being forced to have a portion of their pay go towards it. Also, many believe the federal government should not be taking sides when it comes to abortion. Legally, Roe v. Wade seemed to be not correct/right which is why it was able to get overturned and I'm personally glad for that.

[U4ea0]

It has nothing to do with prolifers. Abortion is being banned not for religious reasons, but because women in general are not doing what they need to be doing to support our civilization. To get women back into compliance, legislation passed that gave women independence having to be repealed. No fault divorce and affirmative action are next as well as child support and welfare legislation.