Don't say "it's stupid" or anything like that I want a genuine reason, dig deep and tell me why?
In general, I really don't mind other people using them, except that I'm a writer with an English degree, so the incorrect grammar bugs me. Plus, I never get used to hearing it. I ALWAYS think they are talking about multiple people at first. But other than that, it doesn't bother me really. Like, I'm not going to harass people or be a jerk about it because guess what? I am surrounded by people who use improper grammar daily, saying things like, "ekspecially," "supposebly," "can I aks you," misspelling "they're, there, and their," etc. Language is always changing, so as long as we can all udnerstand each other in daily speech and follow the same strict rules in professional settings, who cares what words are used in casual speech, ya know? Also, it's just an asshole move to always correct people's grammar outside of professional peer reviews.
But the other part of me that is a psychologist is also deeply saddened by the use of "they/them" and such because it is dehumanizing. It breaks my heart that there are boys and girls in this world who are so desperate in their search for identity that our language cannot accurately express how they feel--or at least they don't know the words to do so. So instead they try to reinvent current words that mean something completely different. 9ne person using they/them does not identifying as multiple people, rather as something other than his or her biological sex. But they/them still bears the connotation of multiple gender non-specific people and the more someone uses the words, the more that person gets used to just being a nameless face in the crowd, which counteracts the whole search for individuality while accomplishing the search for a group to "belong" in. To address individualtiy, these people often change their names or adopt new aliases to relfect how they currently feel or want to feel regarding personal identity rather than group identity.
It also saddens me that we care so little about these people who are suffering from gender dysphoria that we care more about using the right words and calling them the names they want than we do about actually being emotional support for them, showing interest in their lives and goals, etc. It's disgusting that we fight over what name to call them when all they really need is to be acknowledged. I know people who go by they/them, and even they will tell you that being called by their name is much more humanizing and makes them feel cared about. I know plenty of people mean well, but we need to do away with they/them and similar ridiculous and insufficient words. Call people by their names.
Also, it is very much overexaggerated how many people are entirely against using they/them. You seem to be one of those people. Most people ACTUALLY just hate being FORCED to use the words or being demonized for not using them. And it is even worse when the bullying toward those people to use they/them directly goes against their own belief system. We can't just bully and shame people into agreeing with us. How about we chill and try to understand their viewpoints (no matter how inane they might be)? No major social issue was solved by forcing people to speak a certain way. Those issues are solved by being kind and understanding until opponents eventally realize their own mistakes or their children do 🤷♂️11 Reply- +1 y
Possibly one of the best answers here honestly. It's more the misgendering that is the issue and of course these people need more support than just their pronouns. I have a couple friends who use they/them and I typically refer to them by their names as it often makes more sense unless I'm talking about any one of them specifically.
My issues mostly lay with people who will quite literally go out of their way to misgender someone. I've watched it happen and I've seen the defeat in my friends eyes.
I understand that there are genuine reasons why people find it difficult to get the hang of. I personally don't think that proper grammar and English is a good enough reason because a lot of people who use that excuse often refer to women as "females" and obviously don't have perfect grammar because nobody does. It's contradictory. Not to mention they has been used in both literature and spoken language as a singular since the 1300s. It wasn't accepted into professional written language until like 2015 I believe. Which makes writing in some areas a lot cleaner especially when you don't have to do the whole slash situation.
I think people also forget that singular "you" use to be a plural pronoun and people literally wrote books calling people idiots for using it as singular.
Most Helpful Opinions
I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who has a problem with it in real life. The only people I've met who do, have been online. I think it's mostly just people trying to troll each other.
For me, a good 97% of the social justice narratives really fell apart when I realized 2 extremely important things:
- The vast vast vast majority of people have way too much shit going on in their own lives to care about what's going on in your's. If I'm worried about paying my bills and getting my kids to soccer practice and such, I just don't have the time or emotional bandwidth to give a [hoot] what or why you want to be called what you do. You just tell me what you want to be called, and I do it. There's no oppression; I just have more important stuff going on... I just do.
- So many people just don't see the issues as... real (?), for lack of a better term and the people making an issue about pronouns want to put the force of law behind their sensitivity. Many of the problems SJWs are worried about, can easily be resolved by having a change of the victimized person having a change of perspective on the issue. Worrying about the pronouns someone addresses you with, is an unbelievably first-world problem and the easiest solution really is to realize that it's not a big deal. The people allegedly victimizing them don't care enough to victimize them.
So to answer your question; you combine those two ideas above and you can see that the issue people have with they/them pronouns is that the whole thing feels like a needlessly complicated solution to a problem that doesn't need to exist in the first place.
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- 469 opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
+1 yI don't know that I have a problem with it the way some people do though sometimes I think it buys into the narrative that there is a way to be male and a way to be female. I mean growing up I was a bit of a tomboy which turned into just being kind of a plain Jane, and not very girly female. That doesn't mean that I don't identify as female or that I felt that I was neither gender. At the same time if I have a patient or a co-worker etc. that wants to identify as non-binary I won't treat them differently either, I believe in treating everyone with respect.
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- 880 opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
+1 yI don't have any problems with what anyone identifies with. Their life, and I respect their decision. Rather, I've problems with people who misgender others... Because how can you be so vile? And drag "English language" as an excuse.
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What Girls & Guys Said
Opinion
65Opinion
Yes, language is fluid, and words are constantly changing meaning. For instance, if you excel at something, that might be considered your 'forte.' That used to be pronounced 'fort,' yet people have used 'fortay' for so long that now dictionaries say either is acceptable. There is also the word flustered and the word frustrated, yet it is strange how often I hear people say they are flustrated... which isn't a word. Eventually, if people choose to make it mainstream, it will be listed in the dictionary as a word.
When women chose to not be designated by their marital status, 'Ms' was brought to our vocabulary. It didn't take long for people to accept 'Ms,' as it was a unique word and easily associated with the primary objective.
Using they/them is not as simple. You're now giving the same words multiple meanings with no way to differentiate when it is singular and when it is plural. This becomes challenging even to those who want to be respectful of a person's choice. It is very hard to change lifelong patterns. Rather than create such a conflict for so many people, it would have been much easier had a new word been chosen. It would have been so easy to come up with alternatives, such as de/dem or le/lem or ve/vem or ze/zem.
The pushback from using Ms didn't last very long, and the pushback from using another unique word would also probably not last very long. There was more pushback from the Hormel company when SPAM was turned into spam. The people who chose to relabel they/them knew they were pushing buttons and may have done it intentionally for that purpose, but it only gave people more excuses to be critical of the LGBTQ+ community. You would think that's the last thing they'd want to do. We're unlikely to be accepted if we're always forcing ourselves in other people's faces.
If you're asking my own person problem with using they/them, it tends to be how strongly people correct me when I do stumble and use the wrong word. When people are putting forth a legitimate effort to respect the wishes of others, the last thing they want is to be criticized every time they make a mistake.
37 Reply- +1 y
Context is key when using they/them as singular pronouns. Much like many words in the English language. Live for example you don't know if I'm saying live or live unless you have context.
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Is that an excuse for complicating things rather than simplifying them? When creating something new, it makes sense to make it as simple as possible. Let's say you get new white carpeting in your home. Will you tell everyone to walk on their hands rather than their feet, just to keep the carpet clean?
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No it's just the English language which is incredibly complex nothing really changes with they them
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I am very much considering others perspectives I understand that it can be difficult at times, I understand that people can be overly harsh in their corrections, I understand that older generations are going to find it harder to adjust to. If you think about the times where you use a persons pronouns its not a lot in the grand scheme of things and typically when it's use they can be used for literally anyone when that person's name has been a part of the conversation
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Well said. I agree for the most part. It does hurt one's feelings when one is clearly a good person trying to be considerate and others lash out after one or two slips. It's because our culture has this obsession with instant gratification. We can't allow for the necessary gradual changes that social issues almost always require. We can't allow for the fact that some people WILL NEVER CHANGE THEIR MINDS, so until they are dead, they will keep their different point of view. We can't allow for the fact that others can disagree with us WITHOUT hating us. Perhaps humans were always so impatient, but social media has exacerbated the issue.
I totally understand the impatience, and how it feels to see so much negative human interaction in the world and just wanting it to stop NOW. But we aren't gods. We can't control the choices and words of others. We have to be the best we can and try to change as many minds as we can. - +1 y
@Weapon77 So true. All we can do is our best. We won't be perfect, but, hopefully, our effort to be considerate of others may encourage others to be considerate of us. Let's just make it as easy as possible to interact respectfully with all people. We gain nothing positive by complicating the lives of others.
- 1.7K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
+1 yI don't have a problem with it, I try to use them, it's just that sometimes it's hard to have a conversation about the person, especially if it's a group of people. I kinda would have rather they came up with a new word.
And it makes conversation awkward and hard and I end up feeling like I'm making all these changes specifically because someone decided for me that I have to.
So on one hand, I want to be kind and give it a try but on the other it feels like I'm changing my life for some random person who doesn't appreciate it, wouldn't do something equivalent for me and is usually doing it with an entitled energy. Almost like a kid who just expects you to do things for them.
You want me to feel disrespected so you don't have to even though I would have had more respect for you if you just picked a pronoun that works in conversation. And then you're gonna act like it's no big deal for me but it's a cruel act for me not to do it.
Again, I try to refer to people how they want but I do have some things about it I don't totally understand or agree with.
00 Reply I'm non bias on it for the most part as far as what they/them want to call themselves/theirselves my problem is with the fact that its even an issue. With all of the challenges that the LGBTQ+ community has faced and the endless list of challenges that it still must yet face it seems a bit counterproductive to me. There so many larger issues that have to be overcome for the LGBTQ+ community to put so much time and effort into what do we call ourself today. How about we drop the need for a pronoun and go with a single unisex term? Here's one "Being's" Everyone want's to fight for what they believe in and for what they feel is their right's but it seems the world has gotten stuck on the idea that Labeling is more important than just simply living life and finding happiness no matter who you are. If my opinion on this has offended or angered anyone in the LGBTQ+ community or those who are not part of that community as well I want to apologize to you for anything I've said that you might of found offensive. I truly mean no harm in my my words they are simply just an opinion. But if they did upset or anger anyone then it seems that we are spending too much time looking for a reason to hate and not a single moment looking for a reason to be happy and free to love ourselves. Learn that each person has a right to exist the way that they/them choose to do so and once we realize that each and every single one of us have the right to live how we choose everyone won't be so busy running around trying to label themselves/theirselves as well as others trying to label them with any pronouns of the day that are being used. PS if we all can agree on the whole unisex name Being's I totally want the credit for that.
00 Reply- 6.6K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
m +1 yI've read numerous articles and writings in which these pronouns are used, and some times the author does specify or has a disclaimer that this is the case, but sometimes they don't bother to "let you know"
for either case, it is incredibly confusing and distracting, not in the sense of "omg I have no idea what is going on" but in the sense that I do have to actually and consciously and constantly pause in my mind and correct my brain, because my brain is already used to proper grammar rules and structure, and it is very difficult to undo decades of consistency... every single time the word they or them, I have to pause and make sure, if it is used as the proper grammar or the new grammar... so yes, this is very distracting and annoying when I've just read the first paragraph of the very long articles I tend to read, but... I already had to proof-read myself AT LEAST two dozen times
now, I am not exactly against these pronouns, and I do not actually consider them a problem, but it is true that most of these articles and writings I will just feel like "nevermind" I am not really that interested on it, and basically quit them before I start the third paragraph just because I am not in the mood of constantly battling my OCD brain about this one particular thing
I wish it were more simple but, there is absolutely anything simple about how my brain works... lol, now... in every day conversations, or in casual engagement with those who wish to go by these nouns, that is way easier, and that I've done it with no problem at all, because now we're just one on one so I guess sometimes is a bother, and other times not at all00 Reply - 6.8K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
+1 yI have 4 issues.
1. I'm human, I make mistakes I will slip up and call you he/she if you look male/female. The last thing I want is someone having a hissy fit because I've slipped up.
2. To me calling someone a "they" sounds disrespectful, it's right up there with calling someone "it". I might as well use the phrase "you people".
3. I don't need to know your gender. If you want to be one of the alternatives that's your business. I'm all for live and let live but a lot of people aren't. Now half your work colleagues are worried about you using the wrong toilet.
4. In languages other than English changing from he/she to they/them also changes other words in a sentence. Again it's all to easy to accidentally slip up and offend people. You try explaining to a kid struggling with awkward grammar why the normal verb rules don't apply to a certain person.50 Reply 412 opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. We don't use different pronouns just to make English more difficult for foreigners to learn - they serve an important purpose in removing ambiguity (don't ask me how languages without them manage).
For example: "Kate has a friend called Gary. They enjoy ice skating".
So who enjoys ice skating? Is it Kate, is it Gary, or is it both of them?
Now imagine you're reading (or attempting to write in a way that is clear to others) a lengthy article about someone, all written in the third person - it's much more difficult.Take a look at the wikipedia articles about people who prefer to use they/them. You'll see most still use he/she instead (Miley Cyrus, Demi Lovato, etc), because it's clearer.
When they do use they/them, in order to make the article understandable, the subject is repeatedly referred to by name instead - like Ezra Miller's page, which is just Miller did this, Miller did that... It's long and repetitive.03 Reply- +1 y
There's a full stop rather than a comma so they both enjoy ice skating. It's really not that hard for use context clues.
That's just how articles are written and the appropriate way to write them.
Singular they has been used since the 1300s and accepted. It's only been accepted more recently into writing. At one point it was literally improper to refer to anyone as she/her in writing. Everyone was he/him no matter their gender or target audience of the writing. - +1 y
Sure and I wouldn't expect everyone to be perfect all the time. As a person who only speaks English even I fuck up sometimes in general
762 opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. Because it goes against the English language. There are three sets of pronouns. He/him/his refers to men, she/her/hers refers to women, and they/them/their refers to groups. Because English never had a pronoun set for when the gender of a person has not been specified, they/them/their was co-opted to fulfill this role until gender was established. Using they/them/their when gender is apparent implies that the person in question is neither male nor female, which is a biological impossibility. You're male or female, maybe both in rare cases, but never neither. I've seen people who want to be addressed as (s) he/they, which is even more asinine because it's now mixing pronoun sets. We can't just rewrite the English language to accommodate people who, for whatever ill-conceived reason, don't want to fit into their biologically-based groupings. We should not have ever encouraged this.
27 Reply- +1 y
People who say their pronouns are he/they for example are saying they are ok with being called he/him and they/them.
It doesn't go against English language either those are not the only pronouns.
There is subject, object, possessive adjectives, possessive pronouns and reflective. It is a pronoun, you is a pronoun, we is a pronoun. - +1 y
They/them don't conform to a gender... So yes...
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We aren't talking about sex we are talking about gender.
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Yet they're scientifically very different. You can say they're the same all you want but it doesn't change the fact that they aren't.
+1 yI don’t really have one although I will say this. If you are going to do it, please don’t do it at work or on company time. Don’t listed on company stationary, your email signature or company letterhead. Like it or not, there’s a good portion of people who find it offensive or divisive so it’s best to keep those kind of things away from your business. I had to tell an employee to remove his pronouns from his official signature line. Even though I don’t mind, we serve the public and there’s a portion of it it sees it as red meat politically. As a business that depends on everyone, we just can’t bring any divisive political issues into the workplace right now. Other than that, people should just let everyone do what they need to do as long as there’s no injury to anyone else.
10 ReplySee, I don't have a problem with people using it. They can call themselves they/them/xe or whoever. I have a problem when I'm FORCED to refer to them by their pronouns. Unfortunately, this policy is being implemented in some countries now (Canada is one of them), you can get fined for not referring to someone by their pronouns. I can only imagine the shitstorm that will go on if it's implemented in the United States.
If I don't refer to you by your pronoun, it's not out of disrespect. It's because I have a different belief. You can use that with yourself, but DO NOT force that upon other people who don't believe in it, and then try to compare that to the n word which is 100 times worse.
12 Reply11.7K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. I like things simple. Want to be addressed female, I'll call you by female pronouns. Want to be addressed male, I'll call you by male pronouns. If I care about you, I can accommodate the they them pronouns, but that's it. I don't believe in the dozens of pronoun bullshit like clownself. If one tries to make me conform, I will push back. I won't have my speech be forcibly changed by some woke entitled brats.
30 Reply
Anonymous(45 Plus)+1 yI used to get asked 'Who are they? The cat's mother?' when I was a boy.
It is rude to refer to someone as they when they are present.
It is also just generally unhelpful as more often than not it is not clear who 'they' are. You can get away with it if you are only talking about something that happened between you and one other person but if you are talking about 2 other people it is unlikely that context will be enough, sooner or later the listener is going to have to ask 'who are they?' so it's simply better to learn to avoid over using 'they'.
01 Reply- +1 y
Situations where you're using pronouns are typically when the person isn't around and you're talking about them specifically so you have context
Anonymous(25-29)+1 yFor our generation it's not. I look at my dad as an example. He was brought up by older parents. He had it drove into him from an early age the "ma'am/sir" response. If someone "appeared" to look like a woman his mother would punish him for not calling them ma'am and opening doors for them, saying he was disrespecting them. Now he had that so ingrained into who he is its like a knee jerk response that you don't think about. It's not that he is being rude and will apologize if it brought up its just that's how he was conditioned to think.
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+1 yBecause it is being force down our throats on everything. I will call you as I see you, so don't throw a hissy fit, if I get it wrong. For all I know you can identify as a toaster oven that day. There are only 2 sixes, male or female. That Is what your are. How you identify yourself is your choice, but I don't have to follow it. Years ago we had girls that dressed as boys, they where called tomboy. And year later most of they grew up to be women. This os an adolescent and young adults, that are screaming for attention in my view.
10 Reply
Anonymous(30-35)+1 yI have very few issues with others using them, my primary issues come from when others try to mandate your choice of words, especially when being forced to use differing pronouns than you would use otherwise indirectly supports a belief you don't necessarily hold.
But one issue I do have with they/them pronouns is they/them historically is used to gender-neutrally refer to a group of people. If I say "they aren't too happy" people usually think I'm referring to multiple people. So it's usage now is more ambiguous and less intuitive.
You might not be a fan of the Babylon Bee, but whether you find the video humorous or not, parts of the video do exemplify the issues between they/them referring to a singular person as well as referring to multiple people.
https://youtu. be/r00xvXvGBtw15 Reply
Opinion Owner+1 yAnother, better example is in the following video at the timestamp 1:56.
https://youtu.be/dEaRnAR0dlw
A driver speeds away from a cop pulling them over, but the driver's chosen pronouns are they/them, and when the police officer says "I need backup, they are getting away!" the person on the radio is confused and asks how many people there are, assuming "they" referred to multiple individuals.
You could argue "well, police can shift their language to things like 'the suspect is getting away'" and that's absolutely true, but regardless we're complicated things and making more room for misunderstanding in very critical situations.- +1 y
They has been used as singular for centuries 😊 especially for people whos gender you don't know.
Like if I told you my friend went to the store you would more likely say "which store did they go to"
Or say I said. "Do you know Sam?" Now Sam is a gender neutral name so you'd probably say "no I don't know them" and those are all grammatically correct
Opinion Owner+1 yThat's certainly true, in those particular situations there'd be no confusion since that's standard, but in situations where their gender is known, it does cause confusion.
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But that's the point of people who use they/them as pronouns. Their gender is essentially unknown.
Opinion Owner+1 yYeah, I understand. My point still stands. I'm sure you can look to the videos I posted and see how it can still cause confusion. Things like zhe/zhem or whatever it is would yield more clarity.
2.6K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. They & them are plural words and if used in reference to a single person is just wrong.
Why should someone try to make speak incorrect English? OK that is not deep.
A person wanting to be referred to in the plural is daft and I don't want to associate with daft mad people.07 Reply- +1 y
They is also singular and has been for centuries. Have a little google on that one.
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Nope it's used when a persons (singular) gender is unknown.
- +1 y
I could write "The patient should know what they will be charged for an examination" which uses a singular they.
More correctly I should write "The patients should know what they will be charged for an examination". Plural and plural.
I could correctly write "The female patients should know what they will be charged for and examination". In which case the gender is totally clear and disproves the assertion. in many cases they is correctly used where the gender is known or else irrelevant.
The misuse of they seems to originate in the US.
I prefer the Australian colloquialism of youse. So I would propose that that youse be used in a gender fluid way as a pronoun for those who are yet to decide what gender they are on any given day. Kinky Boots quote - great movie, watch it.
- +1 y
I could write "The patient should know what they will be charged for an examination" which uses a singular they.
More correctly I should write "The patients should know what they will be charged for an examination". Plural and plural.
I could correctly write "The female patients should know what they will be charged for and examination". In which case the gender is totally clear and disproves the assertion. in many cases they is correctly used where the gender is known or else irrelevant.
The misuse of they seems to originate in the US.
I prefer the Australian colloquialism of youse. So I would propose that that youse be used in a gender fluid way as a pronoun for those who are yet to decide what gender they are on any given day. Kinky Boots quote - great movie, watch it. - +1 y
I called a plumber, they should be here soon.
I haven't met Sam, are they coming over?
- +1 y
More correctly...
"I called a plumber, who should be here soon".
With Sam coming over you are really asking if you will meet Sam in a vague colloquial way at some implied event. So why not directly ask precisely that? In this case the person is known to you.
"Will I meet Sam at your diner (or what ever the implied event is)"
Because it's not necessary, it's confusing to people who have to juggle pronouns. It's asking a lot of people and strangers around you.
If someone told me they had a special pronoun, I would be respectful and then avoid them at all costs.
10 Reply1K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. I don't care that much, but a general issue I do have is forming society around edge cases (minority numbers) instead of seeing it as a purely practical decision of majority numbers. There is a hell of a lot of special treatment going on nowadays. It's gone too far. It makes certain people seem extremely fragile, and demanding.
00 Reply- 5.4K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
+1 yi have no "problem" with using the words they and them when adressing a group of people or if i'm speaking about someone i don't know anything about. i use correct grammar and biological gender in my language and i won't let anyone gaslight me into using their made up wrong words.
115 Reply- +1 y
Gender isn't a biological construct. It's social. Using singular they is also correct grammar.
- +1 y
the word gender "can" refer to the social construct of roles, which themself have developed NOT independend of biology OR to biological sex and i'm not gonna explain my use of words every time i use words, cause that would make conversation painfull for everyone involved. instead i assume that you are smart enough to know what words mean. if you're not, that's too bad.
using "they" is correct in very particular circumstances. namely when you're talking about a person you do not know and hence can't know which of the 2 genders they are. if you're triggered by me saying there's only 2 genders, you should probably leave to the safe space and not talk to me. - +1 y
your gender isn't your choice, like your age, your culture and your ethnicity aren't your choice. i would prefer that people would stop acting as though it was. it acomplishes nothing. it's merely a poor attemt at minority dictatorship.
i'm gonna use him for men and her for women. i don't give a damn how they feel that particular day, or what lifestyle or dress they chose, cause these words are not contingent on their emotions and subjective feelings (notice how i used "their" correctly here ;) - +1 y
Nobody acts like it is. They feel like the typical one doesn't suit them so they prefer to be called something else. People who actually use they/them for themselves are genuinely uncomfortable with the typical pronouns, being uncomfortable isn't a choice.
- +1 y
it's not your choice like you choose the clothing you wear. pronouns are words people use to describe the world they see. if i see a big plant with a trunk and leaves, i call that a tree. it might not be an actual tree. i could educate myself to know better based on facts but it's not up to how the tree feels that day. it's up to objective facts not subjective feelings. it's my language. my words. you don't get to dictate how i speak. you may not feel like the gender you seem to others but that doesn't matter and if that's "uncomfortable", you gotta bear it.
i'm not rich. and i would feel more comfortable if people treated me as if i was rich. but that's not my choice either.
in case of gender it's quite a bit like body dismorphia. if someone was annorexic, puking their guts out every day in order not to gain a single gramm of weight cause they feel fat, should i confirm this false self identification or should i describe them the way i see them? think about that.
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point and casebeing: it's my words not yours. and if my words make you uncomfortable, you need to harden up, cause if words hurt you, the real world out there will kill you.
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And if you see someone whos gender is ambiguous to you? What do you call them when you can't just assume?
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of course i can just assume. if i'm wrong, i can be corrected. being wrong is not a criminal offense.
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but if their "self identification" is based on their subjective feelings, i don't care about that and i will continue using the words according to what they mean.
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if i call them a woman and they whip out a dick and tell me they're a man, i will correct myself, cause i'm objectively wrong. of course this is a dumb exaggerated example but i'm just using it to point out how it works.
- +1 y
So you'd correct yourself even if they said their pronouns are they/them?
Reality is words do hurt, clearly because here you are getting worked up about not wanting to use two of them because it's hard. Feels like you would go out of your way to misgender someone for the sake of proving a point but it really only proves you're ok with hurting people. Kinda fucked. - +1 y
you're missrepresenting my point. i'm not refusing to use words cause it's "hard" or "inconvenient" for me. i'm refusing to use words that are wrong. you can ask me to call the sky green all you want. it's blue.
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and if it hurts you if i con't call the blue sky green, that frankly is your problem.
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They're factually not wrong. Look it up.
- +1 y
the purpose of language is for an individual to accurately describe the world around them. the purpose of language is not "to feel comfortable to you". if you are hurt by language, you gotta get professional help and not make it everyone elses task to deal with your insufficiency.
577 opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. I'll use the terms 'they', 'their', 'them' when relating a story about someone but choosing for reasons of privacy or irrelevance not to reveal the biological sex of the subject of the story. It sometimes requires a bit of grammatical manipulation to make those terms sound correct, but it is possible to do so.
No problem.
00 Replyi dont care what anyone wants to be called, its their life if they aren't hurting anyone. as i told one user on here who had a tantrum when i included non binary in a post, you dont have to agree with someone to be kind. i have no problem but first and foremost identify people with their name before anything else.
00 Reply
+1 yI have no problem with the use of plural pronouns. When you need to refer to a group of people, you need a pronoun that will apply to all of them at once. (See, I just used it, myself!) In fact, plurality makes a pronoun more useful, not less. I might consider it a bit impersonal for you to say, “him,” instead of “Jonathan;” but if there are a group of people, you need a plural pronoun. Who has a problem with that?
00 Reply1.8K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. Changing language usage, mandating behavior others because they feel like it is demeaning and domineering. Forcing my whims on others because of how I feel does not contribute to a free society. It gives more rights to some. It establishes a new caste system. It’s manipulative.
10 Reply2.1K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. Seeing something as stupid is a good enough reason though the same way if someone was at my house about to eat a meal then asked me to pray for it I would tell them they can pray and continue eating for me tho I'm not actively trying to upset someone if I need to talk to them so will just avoid and construct what I say in a way that dont have he/she/they
00 Reply2.9K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. It is third person plural. It is bad enough that you are referring to yourself in the third person; but now you think that you are a group of people. You need to go back to first person singular. And only go to first person plural if there are actually other people besides yourself.
118 Reply- +1 y
They/them is also singular 🙂
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My friend went to college as a English major. Do you want to know which college they went to?
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Singular they isn't new.
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Did you even read it.
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blogs.illinois.edu/.../677177
It's so funny how wrong you are 🙂 - +1 y
https://imgur.com/a/MM3ncuZ
How about something in an actual book and not something online? - +1 y
While I'm not an owner of a dictionary... I know for a fact the 1998 edition of the oxford dictionary (worlds most trusted) has they as singular.
- +1 y
Google is free
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It's also written in the article I sent that you now obviously didn't bother reading
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So are libraries. I often don't read footnotes on internet articles. As they typically point to other internet articles that magically point back to the original article. In an odd Orroborrous (sp?) fashion. I suppose that if I go to my local library, that has a 2001 Oxford dictionary, it should have a singular they in it?
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Yep it sure would
Anonymous(18-24)+1 yThroughout the hundreds of thousands of years of human history there have only been 2 biological sexes, and now all of a sudden in the last 10 years, less than 4/100,000% of that time, there are suddenly 50 new sexes we're supposed to just shut up and contend with, when our brains know otherwise? Retards.
11 Reply- +1 y
Gender and sex are different. There's always been more than 2 biological sets of sex chromosomes.
- 5.9K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
+1 yMy "problem", according to some snowflakes, is I just don't accept that you can choose to identify as something and declare it to be its own gender. But rather than get hung up it all the brouhaha, I choose to call you either by your given name, or "you", or the "individual in question". LOL Today however, I decided my pronoun will now be "Spock". That's it, just "Spock". :)
010 Reply- +1 y
They/them isn't really being another gender its more lack of gender or outside the gender spectrum
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It's also a plural pronoun now being changed to a singular use. Last time I checked there was no ground swell movement to re-define these words in the English language. Frankly, the whole thing does indeed sound childish. As you requested, I did not call it stupid.
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It's also singular and has been in spoken language and informal writing since the 1300s
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Yes, it's been used as a singular pronoun in literature, and as you say, informal writings. However, it's not been used as a non-binary pronoun until the latest generation is attempting to make it so. Not only this, but how often does it even come into play in the real world when speaking with people? My outlook is - I don't need every person telling me their pronouns, as if I would remember all of them? I'll use your name, or "you", or maybe Lily Tomlin's line - "the party to whom I am speaking". And if I should cross that sacred pronoun line and deeply offend thee, just correct me. :)
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"you" was originally considered plural... People wrote books about how idiotic people were for using it as singular. Language adapts and evolves, to not adapt and evolve with it shows a weakness.
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Show me a book about how people were accused of being idiotic for using you as a plural, please? This isn't merely a question of "language adaptation". This is a question of accepting the "meaning" of using a shift in language to accept a thing as a fact. I really don't want to go into the whole binary/non-binary/tri-nary discussion. I'm sticking to my outlook as stated previously. Live long and prosper, Spock out.
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George Fox, A battledore for teachers and professors to learn singular and plural, 1660.
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Ummm, ok... lol you found an example from 1660! You think maybe this evolution of language you spoke of took place since then.
But let's stop here. I just used "you" thrice in the same sentence to refer to, well - the person I'm speaking to - Smashingdoozy, otherwise known as "you". How is this a gender specific pronoun in this sentence, and if Smashingdoozy's preference is "they", have I offended thee?
I'll replace it with "they": " lol they found an example from 1660! They think maybe this evolution of language they spoke of took place since then." This is not awkward, at best?
I'll replace it with "Smashingdoozy": " lol Smashingdoozy found an example from 1660!
Smashingdoozy think (s) maybe this evolution of language Smashingdoozy spoke (speaks) of took place since then." This is not awkward also, at best?
:) Spock out - +1 y
It's like you never read what I said just the first sentence.
- +1 y
You've missed my point entirely. But anyway, I do believe I've explained what my personal problem is with people using they/them pronouns. I look forward to your next post :)
Anonymous(25-29)+1 yThe idea of gender being a thing at all makes no sense to me, its pointless. Even if you experience behavior that is opposite for what is typical of sex you are born as, that doesn't make you the opposite sex. This still applies even if you experience behavior that fits neither sex.
Prior to ten years ago, no one had a problem with being called a male or female because they fit those physical characteristics including their reproductive roles because that was all that mattered.
Now they want us to accept who they are (even though they technically couldn't accept themselves) even to the point where many of them want it to be a crime not to. As we have seen for many trans individuals growing up, they eventually give it up and realize the mistake they made for getting the surgery done.
00 Reply1.9K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. Because there's only 2 "genders" that are clearly identified by commonly used pronouns, and I don't see why I'd bow down and follow whatever bullshit someone is trying to force down my throat.
Wanna identify as a tennis ball? Cool, you're still a dude to me, and I'll call you a dude.
112 Reply- +1 y
Would you say every man is super masculine and every woman super feminine
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It does actually. Answer the question.
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But you agree that there is some what of a scale then? A woman can be masculine and a man can be feminine. So if gender is based on how feminine or masculine someone is and we take away the biological link which in reality majority of people don't know what their sex chromosomes actually are because they have never been tested. Gender is a spectrum so if it's a spectrum then people can hypothetically exist outside the spectrum and feel like either side doesn't truly represent them. Who are we to deny people self identification?
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No no, the "gender" is based on the sexual characteristics. Even the most manly, muscular and even hairy woman is still a woman, because she has the characteristics of a woman. Mostly genitalia and XX chromosomes. This is the reality, and not "I believe I'm a trout".
And before you say it, no, a man who butcher his dick doesn't become a woman.
You're trying to put a belief, or a feeling, before the biological reality. - +1 y
But you don't know a persons sex chromosomes and often neither do they.
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We aren't talking about sex though we're talking about gender which is how you outwardly present yourself. Not everyone is cis gendered
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Yes we are. And each time you try to make a new "gender", that's another person you're confusing more. Someone who doesn't fell good in his skin should be helped, not comforted.
It's like those people with body integrity identity disorder who feel discomfort with being able-bodied. Are you going to amputate them because that's how they feel?
Or the people who truly believe they're aliens, Napoleon, or a cow. Will you also comfort them in that idea because that's how they feel?
No, you will try to help them, realize they aren't disabled, Emperor of France, or chewing grass. Same with the rest, they are what they are, even if they think they aren't. And the same as you'll help the others, you have to help them, not tell them they're right. - +1 y
Did you know you can help people while also comforting them.
Imagine someone taking your biggest insecurity and then referring to you by that every day. You're not enabling their "delusions" by using they/them you're simply not feeding their insecurities. - +1 y
It's not an insecurity, it's denying reality to not hurt their feelings, which not only won't help them, but once they're out in the real world, no one will care about what they believe, all people will see is what they are.
And I don't have to imagine, I'm a ginger, and an ugly one at that. I know very well how it feels to have your insecurities thrown at you constantly. And I'm happy people did that, because involuntarily, they helped me accept it, and live with what I am, and not what I could think I am. I'm now at peace with it, and I even laugh about something that used to hurt me.
They and them are plurals, so that is how I use those terms. People can call themselves Supreme Commander of the Universe for all I care, but I am not going to be coerced into going along with their fantasies.
23 Reply- +1 y
They/them is also singular and has been used as such since the 1300s 😌
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Yes, it was added three years ago by Websters and was used informally like "ain't" for centuries, but I'm old school. As I said, call yourself anything you want, but if the person looks female I'm using she and her, and if the person looks like a dude it will be he and him. I do not use they or them as a singular and never shall. Sounds unschooled to my ears.
- +1 y
I'm sure you have many times in your day to day life. It's been in the oxford dictionary as singular since 97
Anonymous(30-35)+1 yPeople like to be angry at little things to start controversy, like the right wing. The right-wing claims that the left-wing is snowflake pussies, and yet, they are too scared to talk about critical race theory.
Critical race theory is something that professors have always taught. It's too uncomfortable for them to hear about slavery and discrimination.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/Z88ZiCWUTlA00 Reply
Anonymous(36-45)+1 yI have ZERO issues with it until i am forced to use them to address someone. Im sorry i refuse to use something that is both incorrect language wise, as well as incorrect biologically..
Its sad we are in a country where people can lose their job for misgendering someone, and even in some places go to jail for it, But people dont get in trouble for calling for the death of trump, it is in fact encouraged.
So i am sorry if i refuse to feed into your delusions.04 Reply- +1 y
It's not incorrect language wise.
Opinion Owner+1 yKeep telling your self that. You don't refer to one person as a plural like they them..
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But you do... You probably use it almost daily.
Opinion Owner+1 yKeep telling your self that.
+1 yBecause it doesn't make sense, they/them has always referred to a group of people not a singular person. Who else am I talking to?
21 Reply- +1 y
That's incorrect it dates back to the 1300s being used as singular
Anonymous(25-29)+1 yI don’t have a problem with it at all. I respect anyone pronouns. I just struggle with it so much because my brain automatically thinks of multiple people instead of one person. Especially if it’s written and people are referring to one person as ‘they’. It throws me off a lot and takes me a while to realise. I don’t know why.
00 ReplyIts fine actually , but there are some they s that use it in a annoying- stupid way , we can accept all genders but not stupidity in the name of freedom i mean i can't really tell u how , but some people especially Americans are really really stupid about it. So...
01 Reply- +1 y
Definitely agree on that one
- 3.7K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
+1 yI believe some people try to enforce order to make themselves feel more important while others do not know the difference between a lack of attraction and a lack of respect for somebody. It's fine to disagree but hatred is self destructive.
00 Reply 6K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. My only problem is that it is plural. If we came up with gender-ambiguous pronouns that were singular, I'd use them for pretty much everyone whether they asked me to or not.
07 Reply- +1 y
They them has been singular since the 1300s
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It was. You just don't take notice of it because it's so normal.
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You asked what "my" problem was and I think I've explained what it is. I'm used to it being plural. I dont know about its history or etymology and dont really think of that for each word that i speak, anyway. I could probably get used to it being singular with use but honestly I don't have many nonbinary friends (or many friends in general), so that's just not much of an option.
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No I'm saying it's used as a singular for every day language not just as a persons pronoun
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In that way sure but it doesn't change all that much
Grammatically incorrect; I refuse to intentionally sound stupid and uneducated. Like saying, "woke," it's dumb af and makes anyone who says it look sound like a fool.
04 Reply- +1 y
Bur it's not grammatically incorrect
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@Smashingdoozy If I address you or any singular person that way, it becomes incorrect.
e. g.
"Where'd Sarah go"? *She went home; not they/them went home. - +1 y
"They" would also be correct. It's been used as such for centuries. You probably use it in day to day very often.
- +1 y
Also if you're so worried about using correct grammar why do you call women "females" ? When referring to humans you only use female/male as an adjective not a noun.
Anonymous(25-29)+1 yI just always tried to fit into the world instead of trying to make the world fit me. People call me she/her because I’m a girl and look like a girl. If they called me something else because I was dressed like a boy then I guess that’s ok too. Why should I make people do anything because of my feelings? They don’t know my feelings or care about them. Demanding someone use your preferred pronouns just seems very entitled and demanding.
00 ReplyIt just doesn't make any sense to me and I don't see what the point of it is unless you see some group of people somewhere and wonder, "Are they looking for something?" or "What are they doing?"
01 Reply- +1 y
They is also singular. For example:
"If a professor catches you cheating, they will certainly give you a failing grade."
"I called for a plumber. They should be here in an hour."
"Marvel just hired a director for their next movie. I hope they’re awesome!
It's always been accepted for spoken language and more recently in written
1.6K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. 1. It shows they they are a liberal which means I don't like them.
2. "They" is plural.
11 Reply- +1 y
It's also singular.
- 2.9K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
+1 yI have no problem whatsoever with people using whatever words they prefer for themselves. It’s people who insist on trying to force ME to use THEIR preferred words that is problematic.
00 Reply Commenting to read replies. Inclusivity is always important. If I call Mr Smith “Mrs” I’m sure he would be quick to correct me and then I respect his pronouns and we move. Easy.
00 ReplyI don't have any problem but I find it useless and unncessary. I literally have no idea what they mean and what they are used for and I am not an old fashioned person. It just seems so senseless to me.
00 Reply
Anonymous(36-45)+1 yThe problem is that the word has a definition already and it does not apply to just one singular person. The problem is that the person with the preferred pronouns demands that you use them with the threat of legal action or financial penalty. The problem is that they will use their power to force you out of your job and livelihood for not affirming their delusion.
00 Reply- 4.6K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
+1 yI don’t care but it doesn’t make sense too me, so someone just wakes up one day and decides that they don’t want to be a gender. Granted it’s not the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard like people wanting to be called ze and zir
11 Reply- +1 y
Not really a one day process. The realization could be in a day but the feelings of being uncomfortable are years.
- 1.4K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
+1 yI only use those for humans who ACTUALLY have a REAL genetic mutation which makes them genderless and for animals if I don’t know the individual’s gender. Like the new- no never mind I already knew she is girl. Dinosaur
115 Reply- +1 y
Gender isn't genetic.
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I just meant a deformity of whatever it’s classified as
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You mean someone who is intersex. May I ask how you would know someone is intersex? Do you think people have to disclose that to you in order to be respected?
- +1 y
No I mean they have nothing at all. I didn’t know Futas were real
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Nothing at all? Intersex just means anything that is outside the typical reproductive systems.
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I looked it up and I got “a mix of male and female sexual organs”. Basically that
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But yeah, nothing at all. Literally nothing, not even a line down there, just absolutely nothing. Possibly no nipples either
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I don't think that has ever happened.
Either way still begs the question, how would you know? And why does a person have to disclose what their genitalia looks like in order for you to treat them with respect when you would not expect that from anyone who acts or looks like the stereotypical man or woman. - +1 y
I don’t have to like them to respect them
- +1 y
And genders aren’t a stereotype it’s just natural. That’s like saying, “Oi, eyEs aW SO OveRarated, imMa finnA gougE meen out”
- +1 y
Stereotypical means an oversimplified image of what you would consider a man or woman. They definitely are stereotyped.
I also didn't say you did, that's kind of my point. You don't know what a persons genitalia are and you likely wouldn't ask so why is your answer you would only use it for people who have a genetic mutation. Majority of people don't actually know their intersex. - +1 y
I know they are, to me it just sounded like you were saying “being a man or a woman is overrated”
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Not at all
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Omega LoL, imagine confusing yourself about your gender, couldn’t be us
+1 yWhat was so bad about the standard pronouns?
18 Reply- +1 y
They/them are a part of standard pronouns
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Aren't those meant to mean more than one person?
- +1 y
In certain circumstances but can also be singular when talking about someone who's gender you don't know.
- +1 y
Sally: Please hurry, they just broke into the house!
911: Sally, please try and stay calm and lock yourself in a room. Approximately how many intruders are there?
Sally: One.
911: But you said "they."
Sally: Yes, because I don't want to offend the woke killer. lol
Exactly how dumb do you have to be to not be able to not create your own words, instead of destroying the English language? - +1 y
That would make perfect sense if you didn't know who broke into your house though... It is grammatically correct.
- +1 y
Yes, but imagine being the cops trying to prepare to save you, and not wanting to die in the process?
I would say...
*Someone broke into my house
*A person broke into my house
*There's an intruder in my house
But the woke are winning. Good for you.
- +1 y
All of those would work as would they.
Not that the cops would do anything anyways 🙂 - +1 y
George Floyd was an angel.
726 opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. I wouldn't enjoy the mental gymnastics required to properly conjugate the right pronoun to the right moron... poorest social ROI ever...
10 ReplyCoz system is designed as per fand for 'he' and 'she' and it goes with nature.
If 'they/them' comes it creates chaos in both the system and nature. And only 'he&she' would have to deal with it. That's just too much work.00 Reply1.2K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. There is no problem at all. I have no issue with using the pronouns that other people feel more comfortable with.
00 ReplyI don't think that it is a problem, if I don't know what or who "they" are... I will simply say they.
00 Reply
+1 yPeople who make up pronouns for themselves are delusional. I’m under no moral or ethical obligation to indulge someone else’s delusions.
20 Reply- 2.5K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
+1 yOne challenge I have seen is when someone chooses to use it in specific situations. That’s inconsistent and leads to stress. You understand what I mean?
04 Reply- +1 y
I understand. I've heard it used in times where it would have made far more sense to say the persons name. I think people get confused and scared that they will say the wrong thing or for some reason think they can't use the persons name as well as their pronouns.
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Yep it’s easy to use someone’s name. Would be harder if that person changed genders often yk
- +1 y
I have a friend who is she/they and you can generally tell what they are wanting to be called by what they are wearing. More feminine she, more ambiguous they. Or they will just let us know each day.
Literally will just get a group text whenever they wake up that just says "she" or "they" and we go on from there.
I'm obviously more accommodating because that's my friend and I understand and so do they that not everyone will be willing to do that every day - +1 y
At least she is consistent in the day., someone in my family chooses when it suits her needs. She is in a relationship with another girl and they both use pronouns and identity to manipulate. As I said if someone is respectful that’s fine to use their name but inconsistency can be a struggle
- 541 opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
+1 yWe have no problem with it. We respect they/them, ze/zir, xe/xir, and other non-binary pronouns. I think it’s not stupid or anything similar. I just hate when my stepfather calls my love, who uses the they/them pronouns as she/her/woman.
00 Reply It’s the cool thing to do. I will call it stupid. You are a male or female. It’s pretty simple. Identify as what ever the heck you want. But in the end you are male or female.
11 Reply- +1 y
Those are adjectives not nouns 😇
1.7K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. You can call yourself whatever you want, but you can;t force someone to play this.
When I was younger, I used to identify as a pirate, but didn't expect others to do such towards me.
10 ReplyBecause it's nonsense, they just want attention. I'll call a guy a girl and vice versa if they like, I can respect that. But zir, they, etc, I don't believe they feel that. He and she actually represents something
00 Reply
Anonymous(30-35)+1 yNot with me per se, but I find that a lot of people have a problem because it’s like ‘teaching an old dog a new trick’. Most are too lazy to learn the ever evolving/ moving parts of society.
00 Reply3.6K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic. nothing. just don't force me to speak a certain way.
00 Reply- 709 opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
+1 yI don't have a problem with them using it so long as they don't have a problem with me not using it.
00 Reply - Show More (27)
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