Prosecutors say Jennifer Crumbley had a duty under Michigan law to prevent her son, who was 15 at the time, from harming others. She's accused of failing to secure a gun and ammunition at home and failing to get help for her son's mental health.
I mean…. tough call. I don’t have all the facts, I didn’t follow the case, I just kind of vaguely know the deal. I did hear something about how she had been boasting on social media about going to the gun range with him, etc. If you have guns, it’s whatever, man, I’m not going to fight with you about the mere ownership. ENTHUSIASM for guns, I find that much more alarming, and a red flag, even when you’re hyping it’s self-defense capabilities.
Unless you’re REALLY in the trenches, I think we’d all do well to stop walking around in fear of being victimized by a violent criminal. Like I feel like the preparedness-to-frequency ratio is way, way, WAY out of whack. I hear the “a gun is like a fire extinguisher” thing…. but nobody goes on Facebook with videos of themselves at the fire extinguisher range. Like bottom line, if you in your heart of hearts think your gun makes you more of a badass…. take a lap. Take several laps, lmao. Again, have your gun, practice at the range, do what you feel the need to do, but the advertisement of it makes me think poorly of you. Is the gun for you, or for US, to be like “whoa, watch out for Clint Eastwood over here…”?
So if this woman is of that ilk, I’m less inclined to believe her to be a responsible gun owner, and possibly an irresponsible parent altogether. Your kid could’ve blown his own head off, too, he was clearly troubled, that was no secret. Keeping the gun in a safe place and out of his hands just was not enough of a priority.
Guns give great power. “With great power comes great responsibility”, and all that. And with great irresponsibility comes great consequences. So here we are. We gotta do something. It’s not just mental health. We had fucked up kids at every school I ever went to, and the had their own classroom and were kept separate, but mental health issues are in no way a new phenomenon. Mass shootings, particularly in schools, ARE. People who enjoy guns don’t want to acknowledge or address it, but something is going to have to give. I hate to even say it, but it’s been quiet so far this school year, and there’s no way we get through 2024 without a school massacre. I hate that I even have to say that, but that’s how I feel. Guns are easier to regulate than mental health and individual behavior. It just is what it is, but something needs to be done. Or we can just keep letting kids get killed senselessly, whatever, as long as we still get to feel tough🤦♂️
If someone steals your car and drives drunk with it, are you responsible for not locking it thoroughly enough?
It's a good point
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32Opinion
There is a real slippery slope with this. I understand the sentiment of believing this could have been prevented if the mother had interacted sooner. However the Columbine kids were really good at concealing their heinous plans among their family. Some teens are very sneaky.
I can also see some paranoid parents going above and beyond to control their weird yet non-violent teenage sons. This can screw up these kids even more. Because now they are being falsely suspected of something they are not guilty of. My own mother went above and beyond snooping on me growing up. On a few occasions she falsely believed I was up to no good when I wasn’t. This lack of trust made me deeply resent her and ironically made me do more bad behavior out of defiance.
Anyway this whole mass shooting incident is way more complicated then just gun control, holding parents criminally responsible, etc. It’s a byproduct of our f*cked up culture and how it’s screwing people up. I say that as a relative of a victim of mass school shooting.
Honestly I think the lifelong shame and guilt should be enough for these parents. They will have to carry that burden for the rest do their lives.
"lifelong shame and guilt " - these worthless "parents" though scum is a more suitable word were informed for MONTHS by the school that their son had a problem. Their answer? Not get him the conseling as direct. Not get him the help he asked for. But to buy him a gun & NOT tell the school.
These two would never feel shame & guilt because they are filth. And honestly got off light
@PetLover24 yeah I did read some details about this one. It was an egregious case. But I get worried about other parents who didn’t do anything wrong and their psycho kids went along with this anyway. Kids can be very sneaky.
These "parents" - though the words trash are far more suitable - were informed that their son was having issues. And having worked with troubled youths (e. g. runaways, etc.) bluntly most trash "parents" ARE told there's a problem (or the problem becomes obvious by kids' actions) before it gets to a serious level like this.
These worthless humans were informed multiple times by the school their child was having issues. These... people... were told to take him for counseling. They did not address his and the school's AND the counseler's requirements for help. They did not care for their son putting work (affairs & even animals, her horses, above his needs).
Their actual response to all these issues? Instead of getting him help.
Buy a gun for him and DON'T tell the school. And then because they are just disgusting examples of humanity... try to blame the school for the shooting.
@PetLover24 I agree that they are an egregious case. But are we going to start criminally charging ALL parents of school shooters now?
Also @petlover24 being a younger woman who works with teens. These kids are more likely to open to you about their mental health problems vs a 40 year old parent. You are younger and “cooler” to them.
That’s not say parents don’t do wrong. They can and they did in this case. But unless they explicitly knew what their kid was going to do I still have a hard time charging the parents with manslaughter. Maybe gross criminal negligence and child endangerment. But manslaughter?
And one other thing @petlover24 my cousin was a victim of a mass shooting of a university campus. He survived but he is going to be permanently disabled for the rest of his life.
Now the perpetrator was an adult man who lived with his family. He was VERY bizarre and screwed up obviously. But I do not hold his parents responsible for what happened. Unless they actually bought him the gun and/or knew about what was going to happen it’s not their direct fault. Yes they could have done more. This guy should been involuntary committed to a psych facility. But still it’s not all black and white on these judgment calls.
The bigger problem is our society. Some weird people turn violet when they ultimately decide that “infamy is better than anonymity”.
That’s a much deeper issue and no law, no persecution of parents, no gun control measure will solve that.
Absolutely, especially here where parents totally ignored their minor son's mental health challenges and facilitated his having a gun.
No, not unless there is evidence she knew of his plans. That is a rabbit hole that could lead to also blaming the school and friends. Some things are out of your control - similar to when your kid becomes an addict. It is up to them to eventually get help and the parents cannot do much if they did their best.
Also, it is not possible to fully know what your teenage kid is going through mentally, as it can be very easy to hide. Also, she could have told him where the guns were incase of an emergency, which many parents do.
these worthless "parents" though scum is a more suitable word were informed for MONTHS by the school that their son had a problem. Their answer? Not get him the conseling as direct. Not get him the help he asked for. But to buy him a gun & NOT tell the school.
Yes.
These "parents" - though the words trash are far more suitable - were informed that their son was having issues. And having worked with troubled youths (e. g. runaways, etc.) bluntly most trash "parents" ARE told there's a problem (or the problem becomes obvious by kids' actions) before it gets to a serious level like this.
These worthless humans were informed multiple times by the school their child was having issues. These... people... were told to take him for counseling. They did not address his and the school's AND the counseler's requirements for help. They did not care for their son putting work (affairs & even animals, her horses, above his needs).
Their actual response to all these issues? Instead of getting him help.
Buy a gun for him and DON'T tell the school. And then because they are just disgusting examples of humanity... try to blame the school for the shooting.
s Yes and no... Really you can't hide something well from a teen! 🤣
Most parents ignore Thier kids health when it's bad. Ignore them in general so they can be charged with neglect.
Most parents won't know Thier kid is mentally destructive or just enjoying gta a lot.
Teens hide stuff and feelings!
This is only going to make more kids shoot up the schools! Being mad at Thier parents wanting them to pay also! Leaving fake clues that Thier parents knew about it.
Really stop giving these people 5 minutes of fame on TV!
these worthless "parents" though scum is a more suitable word were informed for MONTHS by the school that their son had a problem. Their answer? Not get him the conseling as direct. Not get him the help he asked for. But to buy him a gun & NOT tell the school.
@PetLover24 haha yup some people are like that I more blame the school for not doing something!
They knew what was wrong had him saying things and not expelled or some one to talk with the parentd.
Parents on wow often ignore Thier kids
That one is super weird. The kid was tried as an adult, and then the parent was tried for basically not controlling the minor. Is he a minor or an adult? There was also no law in Michigan disallowing parents from giving a firearm to a minor, which seems stupid, but that was not itself a crime.
With that said, the parent should have known there was an issue so yes, some punishment is in order. It might be legal for me to grant access to one of my firearms to a non-felon friend, but if I know the friend is unstable and allow access and then that friend shoots someone, I can get charged as well. A parent even more so.
these worthless "parents" though scum is a more suitable word were informed for MONTHS by the school that their son had a problem. Their answer? Not get him the conseling as direct. Not get him the help he asked for. But to buy him a gun & NOT tell the school.
@PetLover24 I know this. My point in the preface is that on the one hand he was charged as an adult and on the other the parent was charged because he was a minor.
I saw that on the news. This sets a terrible precedent for future mass shootings, by saying that someone other than the shooter is equally responsible. I bet that will be overturned on appeal. Nobody in their right mind would want their son to commit mass murder, and this seems over the top to me,
... BUT having an unsecured firearm in the house is irresponsible as hell, and they should have never allowed that to occur, and maybe that is one reason for the conviction.
these worthless "parents" though scum is a more suitable word were informed for MONTHS by the school that their son had a problem. Their answer? Not get him the conseling as direct. Not get him the help he asked for. But to buy him a gun & NOT tell the school.
@PetLover24 The parents had to be oblivious to what the son was doing or planning, but past experience tells us the kid did not need a firearm to kill other kids. Kids have taken knives to school. Looks like he should have been taken out of school and institutionalized for a period
@Bricealan they were TOLD BY THE SCHOOL & CONSELER THERE WAS ISSUES AND IGNORED IT
I think it depends on the circumstances. The child should still get a talking to and some discipline of some sort for their actions. But most of the time these shootings happen as a result of 1. They're bullied by other kids or 2. They have bad parents & childhood.
Parents SHOULD be held accountable, but also maybe the school counselor that dropped the ball… Teachers had previously reported disturbing behavior to the counselor, who twice never followed up with the student, no call was made to his parents THOSE times…
Let’s be real, 99% of all our mental problems come from how our parents raised us. If the government chooses to punish the parents, the parents will push for the government to solve the problem instead, ie free therapy for minors on tax dollar dime. Honestly, I’d be happy with that.
In this particular case, it's clear the mother was negligent, however the act itself is the responsibility of the individual. That's what differentiates a good and a bad person. It doesn't matter what kind of circumstances someone goes through. A good person will never give in to evil thoughts, whereas a bad person would. It's the result of your brain's predetermined wiring. The boy should be held fully accountable for his actions.
@HawkPerception
I don't believe her son was a bad person.
His mom neglected him. She was married and had a boyfriend she was busy with.
I think he did it to get some attention from his mom. Who else did he have to talk to that would care about him?
It's like he was saying to his mom - you if ore me will ya, well I'll show you!!!
I remember last year that parents gave their son a gun (I don't know the names of those guns AK15 ot something?) But his parents gave him one for his 18th birthday. And he did go on a rampage killing people with it. The parents should have gone to jail for that.
@sage2021 Seriously? So it's all the parents faults if they have a serial killer kid?
You do realize that it doesn't matter what kind of environment serial killers are raised in. They could be in an extremely loving home with loving parents and caring peers and still end up killing people because they lack a part of their brain that's responsible for regulating and comprehending emotions.
At what point does it become the individuals fault? Everyone gets dealt shit in life. It doesn't mean you go kill people. And you don't put parents in jail for the actions of their kids.
@HawkPerception
I hear what you're saying.
I heard on the news today that the kid wrote a big not on blood that said "HELP"
Why did all those adults ignore his cries for help. He knew something was wrong with him and nobody helped hi.
If they had, he probably would have been taken to a hospital psych ward and been evaluated. If that had happened and he was locked up, the shooting wouldn't have happened.
I am a mom, and at the first sign my son was depressed about a girl, I took him to a psychologist for 2-1/2 years after I had been at work all day. But he wasn't violent. I was an excellent mom., she wasn't!
Yes you raised them, and should know what your dumb ass son is getting up to and that he is getting a hold of guns in their spare time. Your kid should not be able to get up for school and leave your house loaded with guns and ammo to shoot up their school. That is on you. Also i seen one family they bought the kid the gun. It's like wtf? They can't drink or vote but you think your friendless weirdo of a kid is old enough and responsible enough to own a gun?
biting fingernails...
as a step parent of a child, I vote no... it's not my fault!!
I have this risk, I try to manage it. I'm sometimes too nice and I'm working on being more strict... always been a challenge of mine.
might depend upon how negligent they were, there is some responsiblity, but not all.
Yes especially if Firearms are accessible not properly secure you're just a shitty parent in general there's this video online crime network of this father finding out his I think 12 or 13 year old daughter got shot in chest and he breaks down as soon as the officer on the body cam tells him that she was pronounced deceased the father of the other kid got charged for having an unsecured firearm the father and the kid both got charged I am all for that
Failing to secure a gun and ammunition pulls the trigger for me. There are so many places to hide them that it was absolutely contributory negligence.
Failing to get help for her son's mental health. Even though it may be true, there are too many mitigating factors.
This happened a while ago so I don't remember all the details but these shooters typically have a troubled childhood so I agree that the parents should be held responsible if there is proof that they abused the kid, they should also be responsible if they were in cohorts with the child. If this was kept as a secret from them, I don't think they should be held responsible.
Depends. The judge and jury should be able to look back at their history on how they have raised and treated their kids. Like social media, any type of documents, what family members have said in the past about their parenting, potential medical perceptions, etc. If they have done the absolute best they could to raise a STAR child then no. But if the parent was either absent or just never disciplined their child and taught them right from wrong, then yes most definitely.
What caused the child to shoot up the school? Were they bullied? Lots of blame can be assigned rather than trying to solve the problem. Seems the better solution would be to solve the damn problem instead of trying to assign who is at fault.
If you give a gun to a nutjob you're to blame for his actions. This is exactly why in the UK you need a doctors signature to say you haven't got a screw loose before you can buy a gun.
The law in Washington state now says guns should be kept locked away. That's the only reason I agree if it's the law in Michigan. As far as mental health issues I don't believe that parents are responsible. My experience on gag tells me that a juvenile could develop problems just from this along with most social media sites. It's unfortunate that the internet is capable of such a thing but I think that a person would be very delusional to not agree. It's very obvious now.
Generally speaking, parents ought not to be held responsible for the crimes of their kids. That said, if the parent was so egregiously negligent and performed actions that helped things along (like buying a gun for a mentally disturbed kid) which any reasonable person would know is likely to lead to something horrible happening, then absolutely, charge them.
Agreed
She is held accountable for her own actions, which was failing to secure a firearm from a minor.
This was an extreme case of her ignoring the child’s pleas for mental health treatment. In this case I agree. The problem is the Left will try and use this for all parents who’s child does something like this.
Our society empowers 'parents' with great authority over the behaviors of their children. IF such 'parents' fail society by lacking 'common sense' they are:"Accessories BEFORE the Act" in the eyes of the Law. AND, contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
In EVERY recent mass shooting, ACCESS to a deadly device occurred either through parental contribution by purchase and/or parental negligence in responsible secured storage.
This isn't being held responsible for her child's actions. It's being held responsible for providing a weapon and not securing the weapon properly. Those were her actions not her son's.
That woman in black on this pic has laugh muscles atrophy. In regard to your question, it's civil law that parents are responsible or partially responsible for deeds of their children
At some point, yes. And I think a mass shooting by a child is more likely to cross that threshold than most other things.
I don't really know all the facts on this incident. But if the parents didn't lock up or secure the gun & ammo. If they knew the kid had issues yes they should be held accountable to some degree.
I read somewhere that they got him the money to buy the gun (maybe illegally?) not sure as I haven't read enough with the case.
That depends on whether the parents are in a Red state or a Blue state.
This is liberalism at its best. I'm suing the giant fork factory for making me fat.
I think child neglect played a big part in this.
The actual specific context matters greatly in the case. I don't know it so I won't say yes or no but I agree with a lot of the comments this is a potential slippery slope in precedent
Parents should be held responsible for their children. But then the state or federal governments need to allow the parents to be able to do something about the child when problems arise! My point is that it seems that the parents that are trying to raise responsible children. They are the ones who get arrested when they to inflict punishment to fit the crime. The children that are actually being abused are the ones that slip through the cracks and end up being killed!
In this case, definitely. Giving a troubled teen a gun is never a good idea.
If the youth is on medication, that should be held accountable.
Too often medications have negative side affects.
Final Amswer
I don't know the specifics of this case. I find it concerning for the same reason @NamerOfStars mentioned.
Involuntary manslaughter? That already sounds like something they made up.
she didn't secure the weapon. HE chose violence that day
She gave him the money to buy the gun I heard. So yeah, she aided somehow. I didn't read enough of the case but I think in this situation, yes, she's definitely partly to blame.
In that situation yes, but this whole situation needs to change, if it keeps going on it's the people in charge of the countries fault
Seems reasonable. Same as holding someone to account when their dog kills someone.
Yeah. What a degenerate pig. I loved seeing her humiliated on the stand about her affair. Can’t wait until the same happens to Fani Willis
She was very negligent.
That would be really bad for women, especially single, or divorced mothers.
If they show blatant disregard, then Yes!
Absolutely
depends on the facts.
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