Honestly Ash this seems more like a gotcha question. Regardless though, I will answer.
If my girlfriend came up to me today and said that she was pregnant but aborted my baby, I would feel betrayed and hurt beyond belief to the point I don't think I could look at her the same. If we both agreed we want kids and she did that, I would view that as her not valuing my belief and opinion or who I am as a man or even respect me enough to begin with.
That wasn't just my kid. It was OUR kid. Just because it is your body doesn't mean you can go and do that without talking to me about it all for the sake of autonomy. I am only ok with abortion if it is a legit threat to the mother's life or if it was conceived via rape/incest. Otherwise it was a decision that came about because we chose to engage in sex and a byproduct of that is potentially children. She knows this. So if she did it without my consultation, it tells me a few things.
1.) She doesn't respect me as a man or my opinion on a matter tha lt I believed was mutual between us.
2.) She was potentially lying to me about everything she wanted in terms ofnthe future.
3.) She killed our child. My blood and DNA was ended on a mere decision that I am supposed to just accept? No ifs, ands or buts all for the sake of bodily autonomy?
4.) I also see that as a rejection of me as her husband and as a father to begin with. Like she is telling me that I am not worthy to have a kid.
Which leads me to the final part and definitive answer to your question. I would ultimately let her know that while I respected her decision at the end of the day, we are no longer align with what we value and that I feel betrayed and lied to. This is something that I would have ironed out and if I even knew she would have considered doing this, I would not have gotten with her. That would be the end of the relationship in my eyes and I would want nothing more to do with her. I would much rather find someone who loves and respects me enough to follow the same goals for a family than spend it being with a woman who doesn't and vice versa. I would much rather she find someone who will support her bodily autonomy abortion beliefs and actions to her hearts content because then there is no conflict.
Overall, I just think it is bullshit that the man in this case has no say and will just have to "deal with it" because of it being her body. All right. I will deal with it like such. Respect the decision, but I want her to pack her stuff and I want her out of my house by tomorrow afternoon because we are done in my eyes. If I can respect it that much to let her go, I want her to accept the fact the relationship is done. No ifs, ands or buts.
THIS!
There is no need for me to reply. This says everything I would say. 100%! Any woman considering an abortion should read this and try to understand the male perspective instead of just immediately latching onto some "my body, my decision" mantra.
@OlderAndWiser appreciate the response, man. Glad what I said resonated with a couple of people. I really don't think that women that believe abortion is their right truly understand what we deal with in this instance.
How are we supposed to be ok with that? How are we supposed to look our wife in the eye and support her right to kill our child all because it is her body and therefore she gets all say so regardless of it now not just being about her? It comes off as selfish and very one sided. So we are supposed to always love her? Share that bed with her? Look her in the eye and smile at her every day knowing she feels guilt free and has no issue with doing that? Hell no.
The love was a lie. Especially when she made that decision. It is a, "we'll have the conversation just to nod and say we did and that I really listened to you, but uh... fuck you and fuck the kid too. I don't care. You're not carrying the baby, I am, so my feelings and beliefs are the only right way." That is the gist I got from this question.
If my wife was pregnant and aborted, the decision to divorce her would occur instantaneously. And no subsequent apology and no crocodile tears would change that decision.
In general, I treat my partner like a queen, but she abdicates the throne when she commits murder of my child.
The intention behind my original question was about navigating support during the decision making process, not a reaction to a decision made without talking to him first. I was curious about how men believe they can contribute to a conversation on abortion in a supportive way, *even when* they struggle with the idea of abortion itself. I don’t expect anyone to cheer from the sidelines for something they don’t believe in, but there’s a middle ground where you can still respect your partner’s autonomy and have a meaningful discussion, without abandoning your own values.
And my tail end of my original post and my follow up answer to @OlderAndWiser does just that.
At the end of the day we truly don't get an opinion in this regardless if we get a voice to say what we want to say, but it doesn't matter because the decision is already made up in that woman's mind that she is going through it regardless. It becomes, "I hear what you are saying but this is only me letting you speak to come off fair. I already made up my mind and I expect you to be ok with me doing this."
My response for the most part was taken as if the decision was made without me, however the last of it was catered down to what you said in your reply to me here.
I will humor her request, but she is out of the house with divorce papers ready in the next 72 hours. I couldn't share my life with a woman who is pro abortion which is why I vetted my girlfriend to see what she wants in the future, but we know people can change their minds and women do it frequently. However this also doesn't invalidate the points I made in my original post either.
@MzAsh When you said, "you can still respect your partner’s autonomy," you indicated that you missed the point. The decision should be a joint decision, not her autonomous decision. If she doesn't want another child, proceed to deliver the baby and then walk out of our lives. MURDER is not the answer.
ShadezMcgee, you have the right to choose a partner whose values align with yours, just as she’d have the right to choose someone who’s pro-choice.
OlderAndWiser, I’m with you on the importance of joint discussions. But when fundamental values clash, the decision can’t always be mutually agreed upon. You say abortion isn’t the answer and you have the right to believe that… for you. But others may disagree.
I appreciate your response to my point.
In your response to Shadez, you suggested that a person should select a partner whose values are consistent with your own. The problem with that approach is that someone can tell you that they are opposed to abortion, but what they are saying is an intellectual response to a hypothetical question. When a girl becomes pregnant, her decision about abortion is likely to be based much more on emotion; a previously pro-choice woman may decide against abortion while a previously pro-life woman may choose an abortion.
@MzAsh I know, and that is exactly what I said. My biggest issue with the question was essentially saying that we as the man had to be okay with the woman going through with an abortion if the topic came up and yet we were still able to maintain our values. No. We really don't because at the end of the day, this hypothetical you are saying the woman's answer is the only valid answer here. Being that I have to be okay with her aborting the baby and that myvakues are still intact. No, they aren't. Because I just let her kill our child and I lose two things. I lose my relationship with her because of my values and I lost my daughter/son. I lose more than I gain supporting thay decision. So at that point. Divorce is the only solution.
What I am saying is that it isn't about just her at the end of the day and I was making the point that people change their minds frequently. Which @OlderAndWiser pointed our above my response here.
I know we have the right to choose a partner based on values and family desires and goals which I said earlier in my initial response to your question, but it doesn't mean that someone's stance can change. And I am saying that if we take that into account and go with belief that the woman is the one who decides whether or not that kid I want is born is bullshit because it isn't just about her anymore. At that point if it isn't for legit life threatening reasons or in the cases of raoe/incest, it is selfishness. This plays back into the 4 points I put in my original post.
Can you possibly, possibly imagine being a man, being a man, hearing the news that your wife is pregnant, being excited that you are going to have a child, and then hearing your wife announce what she is going to legally murder your baby?
Men are not devoid of feelings, despite the macho act of some younger guys. You know some women who have a miscarriage and every year, on the delivery date, they mourn the loss of their child? You know how tragic that is, right? The fact that the baby is not inside of us doesn't make this less of a tragedy for a man.
@MzAsh If “fundamental values clash”. Than what the hell is the point of even being in a relationship together in the first place?
You act as though abortion is just this cookie cutter issue that isn’t really a big deal even though its a fundamental question of life. And so much about “your autonomy” instead of the infant’s life.
Is your atonomy really more important than your child’s life?
You’re selfish as f^ck
Shadez, I’m not saying that the woman’s answer is the only valid one. His feelings on the matter are totally relevant and should be heard. You don’t “have to” be “okay” with the decision of abortion. You have the right to your feelings and the right to disagree with it. If you feel divorce is necessary after that then that’s your decision.
Olderandwiser, I’m sure that hearing such news would be very difficult. Emotions run high on such personal topics and it’s clear men feel this deeply too. I believe it’s important to find a balance that respects emotions of both but also protects autonomy.
Whiteboychill, The point of a relationship is to navigate life together, which includes handling clashes as they come. It's naive to think any two people will agree on everything. On the topic of abortion, it's recognizing the weight of the decision and who has to carry it out, quite literally. Autonomy isn't selfishness, it's about the right to make decisions about one's own body and pregnancy. It's a complex situation but it deserves conversation, not condemnation.
"Autonomy isn't selfishness, it's about the right to make decisions about one's own body and pregnancy" = the man has no right to make this decision.
@OlderAndWiser “Autonomy” is about having the suppossed right to get away with murder. I don’t see how that could ever be justified
@WhiteBoyChill Agreed.
Very few women are ever forced to become pregnant.
How is it not? You said that since the woman is carrying the baby she gets the final say if the baby lives or dies for the sake of autonomy. This goes back to being "heard" but not respected by the woman, despite the fact it is not just about her now.
This goes back to what I challenged you with earlier too. People's minds change from waht could have initially been stated. IE, a woman wanting kids just like her man. So for example if a man's girlfriend or wife comes up to him and she is pregnant saying she wants an abortion for the sake of autonomy, we are supposed to just respect the decision no ifs ands or buts. That is what I see with your words here. Never mind the fact the man was just lied to by his girlfriend or wife, but now this is what we see.
1.) She doesn't respect us as a man or our opinion on a matter that they believed was mutual between them.
2.) She was potentially lying to them about everything she wanted in terms of the future.
3.) She killed theur child. Their blood and DNA was ended on a mere decision that they are supposed to just accept? No ifs, ands or buts all for the sake of bodily autonomy?
4.) I also see that as a rejection of the man as her husband and as a father to begin with. Like she is telling them that I they are not worthy to have a kid.
Does any of that make sense to you or can you empathize with that?
It’s HIS baby, too!
It’s her pregnancy, not his. If the two have opposing wishes, a decision still had to be made one way or the other. She can respect his opinion and feelings without necessarily agreeing with him, and vice versa. And yeah, she reserves the right to change her mind. This doesn’t automatically mean she’s lying as long as she stays in communication about what she wants.
"She can respect his opinion and feelings without necessarily agreeing with him, and vice versa."
How? Give an example please, because this is truly baffling.
"And yeah, she reserves the right to change her mind. This doesn’t automatically mean she’s lying as long as she stays in communication about what she wants."
No, she did lie. If she is pregnant after saying she wants a baby and now all of a sudden she says she wants an abortion, she did lie. Because she lied about wanting a baby and now she doesn't want it despite the fact she told her boyfriend/husband during the vetting process she did. That is a lie.
Which brings back the four points I made again. You dismissed them again. This is really a one sided conversation about only submitting to body autonomy. You are not looking at it from the man's perspective which is why this is bothering me Ash. You say we get an equal say, but you are not even acknowledging the points I made in the case of a woman being pregnant all of a sudden wanting an abortion despite the shared desire for a kid. If the man values his stance on abortion and having kids, he loses everything.
I understand the feelings behind "my body, my choice," BUT. . . it's a baby's body, too, and that isn't yours. Do you understand the feelings behind "you're murdering my baby?" No, or yes, but they aren't as important as my feelings?
I'd say to just be clear about it, with respect but also to not keep things that could breed misunderstandings and resentment. Then again, it also comes whenever she ultimately wants children or not and likewise for him - if they can't concile on this, then they should split up.
Not exactly abortion, but a similar issue - my wife already wants a fourth child, I have my doubts about it. I do communicate my doubts about this and don't make her feel like either one of us is wrong and the other is right.
In the end I just asked her for some time, because in my opinion she's heavily influenced by some recent events. If in some three months she's convinced she wants a four child, I'd be more inclined to give it to her.
I think this situation is a bit my fault - while I am beyond happy with our three girls, I did express I hoped for at least one to be a boy. So my wife's big reasoning for a fourth child is that we'll have at least one boy.
But having a son is not that big deal with me, honestly, and she doesn't have to go through another pregnancy for that.
A Man needs to fight A Defend the Life of His Child and every cost from Anyone even from the other spouse who’s trying to Harm them. If I was a man I would do anything in my power to prevent it. Even if I had to go to prison I will make sure My child has a Future even at the cost of my own
I think the real challenge for men is figuring out how to really listen and support their partner, even if they don’t see eye to eye on everything. We’re not trying to fight or going to extremes, we’re talking about being there, understanding her perspective, and respecting her autonomy. The goal is finding a balance and having both voices are heard without overriding her right to choose what happens to her pregnancy.
No. Its important that any guy with balls stand his ground when it comes to moral convictions. Morality isn’t something any person should ever compromise on
By telling her to fck right off with the abortion nonsense
Right, and that’s coming from someone very intelligent
Yes, I hope so. After all it is a roller coaster of emotions and all the support is needed ❤️
@KrakenAttackin Imagine feeling entitled to love and support after murdering your own child. Selfish much?
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I know I would be constantly thinking about how wonderful it would have been to have continued the pregnancy. I always wanted to be a father. But, I also understand how hard it would be on her (or us), having to decide that the best thing for her (our) wellbeing was to end the life inside her.
When she wants to talk about how she is feeling, I would try my best to listen to her, to show that understand, care and support her.
Some women want lots of physical contact (hugs, touches) while others don't want to be touched. She may want to spend some time alone or she might need much more than usual. She might need to be assured that this experience hasn’t changed your feelings towards her. I'd be honest as possible about your feelings for her.
Pregnancy like the reproductive acts which lead to it was never be a one person thing.
To imply it is, is to demonstrate a traitorous level of arrogance and selfishness in rob from the other 2 or more parties their equal rights if not also their lives.
Your not entitled to anymore respect or support than you show the other parties. If they held their own interest in such a priority as you do your own, there isn't much to talk about beyond the only courtesy offer which is to say goodbye.
Yes, pregnancy results from a two person action but it physically affects one person significantly more. The one carrying faces the health risks, changes, and decisions head on.
Of course, respect and support are two way streets. Both parties feelings matter. But when it comes down to decisions, the balance leans towards the one whose body is on the line.
If views are totally opposite then respecting each other might mean agreeing to disagree, but let’s not say our goodbyes without trying to understand each other first.
@mzash
That you have the ability to refuse to partake in such an project is not in question, merely the point at which you have choose to do so as well as the value of our association on the account of said choice.
In the case of a pregnancy you had already made that choice weighing the consequences to your body and life just as he did when you both choose to partake in the act that created said pregnancy.
Thereafter one or more entirely innocent 3rd parties were created and the consequences of the choice is no longer exclusively between you.
What you demonstrate in disregarding the rights of the other 2 or more parties in favor of your own preferences is traitorous self-centered attitude that makes further relations with you unwise and dangerous to say the least. Thus for a wise man there is only to do what you had already done to the other one more more parties and say goodbye before you for similar prior ties do likewise something else to him.
Autonomy isn’t traitorous, it’s a right, especially when it comes to our pregnancy. You talk, you listen, but at the end of the day, the person who’s pregnant has to live with the consequences, 24/7. That’s why their say is the final one. If that’s not something you can get behind, maybe being in a relationship isn’t for you.
@mzash
There you go again selfishly assuming your the only one who has deal with the consequences of that original choice to engage in the act which made you pregnant.
Just because your the only one able to talk about physically feeling those consequences right now does not mean others can't nor that they won't have to deal with them for at least 18-20 years thereafter. There are again at least 2 other parties that will face consequences, not less than 1 other party that is already dealing with them just as you are. For that party the consequences are far more significant, this is their entire life!
Nor does the fact that you are presently enduring the consequence of that original choice which made you pregnant entitle you to reconsider that choice. Quite frankly you already signed that contract and agreed to it. Your regret now that your finally paying for it does not entitle you to hurt the other parties in an effort to get out of it.
So no, your not entitled to the only say, frankly if we are to measure say in this choice on the basis of consequences you would be at best a distant 2nd to that of your baby who's entire life is on the line. You're entitled to even less if no say at all if that is the standard.
We’re gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Sure, decisions about pregnancy don’t *only* impact her, but let’s not forget who’s carrying the load here, literally. Of course he should get a say, but when it comes to the final call, the person taking the risks has to have the final say.
@mzash I'm afraid there is no agreeing to disagree when you impose upon others.
As much as you might think yourself the only person taking risk, you are not even the primary risk taker who stands to lose the most.
Your baby is risking everything they have not just their body or health. Just because you can't see or talk to them to hear their point of view doesn't give you the right to disregard their equal rights.
I'm sorry to say the common opinion that everything is about "Feelings" is a toxic lie. Your feelings are not going to hurt much less kill you. That abortion drug or procedure you takes Will kill your baby. How you feel about that fact doesn't matter to the baby who loses everything because of your unilateral choice to address YOUR feelings and concerns about a problem YOU not the baby created for yourself.
If it’s over a medical issue, or safety, or a rape, then of course I would support her so the question doesn’t apply to this scenario
If it’s over ‘readiness’ then don’t think I would have any obligation to ‘support’ her. In fact, we would be done. If anything, my bond and obligation to my child far exceeds any obligation I have to support her. Then again, I would choose my woman with more discretion than one who would get an abortion over ‘readiness’.
This is also at an issue where a man needs to think big picture and consider the kind of woman he’s fornicating with. As I was told once “Don’t put your stick in her if you can’t imagine a kid with her.”
What if readiness is about setting up the best possible future for any child? It’s tough when what you feel for a potential child clashes with the reality of the situation. Choosing a partner wisely is one thing, but readiness can mean a lot more than just not wanting a child. It can mean being prepared to provide a stable, loving home. Wouldn’t you say that’s worth considering too?
My ability to provide a safe and loving home has never been greater or less at any given time. Love comes from the heart and safety is a multi-layered aspect of life. Income increased but does not equate to love or safety, necessarily. In fact, increases in income usually mean less time for family and olive candy be bought - it’s a time based investment. Reality is what it is meaning, you’ll never be in a place where you’re perfectly ready. Readiness is a repulsive reason to extinguish a life to me. I wouldn’t even abandon a stray pet I adopted over readiness - I’d just make it work.
I will always prioritize what I believe to be right. You say, "while prioritizing their partner’s needs and autonomy". Well if she is autonomous then my opinion doesn't control her actions, right? I have a right to the opinion that abortion is wrong and evil even if she thinks it is more convenient to have the abortion. My number one job in life is not to support someone regardless of what they're doing.
I do find it interesting that women expect men to make great sacrifices for them like working hard for 10+ years and giving her half or more of what he earned. Even if she's giving him close to ZERO in return. Yet she can't give some months to carrying a baby.
Anyhow, no, I ain't going to compromise on morality regardless of how many puppets in western society are singing a different tune.
Since I'm never allowed to have intercourse (because that's what brings out the best in me, and provides the most favorable arrangement for my mistress, who of course has unlimited freedom to date other guys whenever she wants), it wouldn't be my baby to begin with, although if she decided to keep the baby, I'd gladly encourage her to put my name on the birth certificate, whether I were the biological father or not, the decision would hers and hers alone. If she asked for my input, I'd render my opinion, but decisions like this should be the woman's choice exclusively.
As i have mentioned hundreds of times before in my answers...
If a woman was raped than it's 100% her decision if she wants an abortion or not
If it was by her boyfriend than she needs to take his opinion into consideration
If it was by her husband, she can't have an abortion if he doesn't agrees to it...
Personally i am against abortion unless there was a harsh medical issue or danger on my future housewife's life...
If we had no choice and she was forced to make an abortion because of a medical emergency than i'll be with her all the time, comfort her, take care of her, hug her and share with her all her feelings... etc
It's not about who is the one with the more powerful decision, even though a man is able to have the last decision but personally i think that a man and his wife have created this life together so the right thing is that they both take the decision but in my opinion none of them should be able to decide if they can kill a life or not since it's god creation unless it was for a medical issue or something that cause danger on the wife's life...
A good wife will always ask her husband about such issues because when they are married, it means they are one and the baby inside her womb is made by both of them, so the decision must be taken by both...
It's not like the guy made the woman pregnant and ran away or rapist who impregnated her, it's her husband and he's there for her and his baby, the least thing she can do is to tell him what's happening or what she is planning to do...
Nope, because that the natural effects of being pregnant, the majority of women passes through these side effects, if she doesn't want to be pregnant than she should of told her husband from the 1st time and to have his agreement on it but when a wife chooses to cut the rope in the middle of the way down than it's going to end up bad!
By the way if your husband is a good man, taking good care of you, spending his time cuddling you and making you feel comfortable and happy while you're pregnant, also he's the one taking you to the doctor's clinic and he is always there by your side, why would you want to destroy everything? Just so you can say "it's my body, my choice"? Does it really worth it 🤔
Especially that you know in a real sacred marriage, you're body and his body became one so both of you are actually one...
Between a husband and a wife, it ain't like between a boyfriend and a girlfriend, you have responsibilities towards each other, you're also related now as one family, also you both have made vows in front of god so a marriage ain't a game at all!
If people knew the essence of what a real marriage is, than you wouldn't have seen this rise of divorce numbers!
I get your point about the bond and responsibilities in a relationship. But even in a marriage, “we are one” doesn’t mean she loses her bodily autonomy. It’s making sure that any life brought into this world comes into a situation where it can thrive. And sometimes that means making tough calls for the greater good, even if it’s a solo call.
Being pregnant means to thrive and bring a new life to this world from the seed of love between you and your husband, this baby is made from your and him and that's what thriving is all about...
A call for a greater good, if taken solo it means your husband doesn't cares about you, how come there is a life and death situation and your husband who is responsible of you would allow any harm to happens!
A husband and a wife will do the best for each other, your comfort is his comfort and his pain is your pain, etc... that's how it works, when you're at a point where you have to take a solo decision for the good sake of yourself, it means that your husband have failed somewhere...
Personally i think that a baby is a gift from god, if i was married and my wife got pregnant, than it's time to celebrate and not mourn!
All a man can do is be open and honest about his feelings with his partner but also respect her decision
I think I could communicate my own feelings and concerns very well but I couldn't prioritize my wife's needs in such a hypothetical case. From my perspective, we already have a child to be born. So I'd do everything to support her in every possible way but I can't support her choice to abort at the cost of our future child.
Indeed, asking a man to support the killing of his baby is insane
@monorprise Absolutely. I see lots of people on this topic trying to debate the nature of the sentience and life of the fetus when I think that's missing the ultimate point. In my mind, we are "with child". We are not "with fetus" and definitely not "with parasite". The dream and associated responsibility have already taken root in me, so to abort here is, at the very least, to flush my dreams down the toilet. Please don't kill my dream.
You should know how each other feel about subjects like this prior to entering a relationship. If your morals, values and goals don't align you will never have a healthy relationship.
Thankfully I never have to deal with this kind of thing. One of the benefits of being an asexual man. Don’t have to give a woman power over my potential child’s right to exist. What men don’t understand is that having sex with women gives women power over him in so many ways while men have none. Once you have sex with a woman you’re already in prison. Just don’t have sex. But I know men can’t do that so I guess you’ll all be behind bars and I’ll be home relaxing
Sounds like you’ve got your life sorted, and that’s cool. But calling relationships a prison is also giving away power by letting it all bother you. Those who get hung up on every detail give others power over them without realizing it. So while you’re home chilling just understand that not everyone feels locked up by these things. Sucks that you do.
So you’re saying staying single and refusing to have anything to do with women is somehow giving them power over me? That makes no since at all. 😂 Women already have too much power and you can’t even just avoid them without them still gaining power? What would you even suggest a guy who wants nothing to do with women and wants to avoid giving them any power to do?
I enjoy it. It’s getting a message out there that needs to be out there.
You’re right. I should just stop talking about this kind of thing and continue doing what I’m doing because avoiding women and relationships for 9 years I’ve been happier than not. No false accusations no worrying snot being constantly cheated on. Men can just learn that women aren’t worth it themselves and if they can’t that’s on them 🤷🏻♂️
About*
People have to claim that. Otherwise the government would deem it a national health issue 🤣
If you were a man you wouldn't consider me to be the problem.
If I found out my wife aborted my child I'd file for divorce. No second chance on that.
ONLY exception would be an ectopic pregnancy which would kill her and the baby before it could be born anyway.
easy.
they don't, when your feelings are different you don't have to support anyone who isnot on the same page, just tell them you are not up to it and make your decision, either to live the who cares who or suck it up and stay.
@aceleon So basically adopt the point of view that your 'interest' are soo prioritized that nobody else's matters not the husbands or the babies.
That's basically not having a relationship so he really should leave her if that is how she feels.
A person deserve no more respect and support than what they offer to others. If she offers soo little respect and care she is entitled to none. So the relationship might as well not exist.
Don't care. If my wife were to want an abortion the day she tells me would be the same day that relationship ends. Thankfully that is something I will never have to deal with
several combinations he wants abortion she wants life, he doesn't want to "support her decision" how expect support when don't agree?
In the 90's my older cousin was horrified that his love would murder their child. He hired a lawyer and took her to court but his baby was dead before they could even go to court. Obviously they broke up.
@MzAsh People had responsibilities and understood the importance of responsibilities. Both men and women had to do things for the good of SOCIETY. Now we have a society where many people believe that the most important thing is personal freedom (without responsibility) and personal enjoyment on an individual level. Who cares how it impacts family or society? Western society is now in rapid decline as a result. The end for all of this will be reaching a point where there's nobody to do something difficult or that isn't fun every minute and without that critical parts of society will stop working. The end result is that one day the power doesn't flow. The fresh water doesn't flow. The heat won't come on. The food isn't in the stores. But I get why a lot of people refuse to see this and want to believe that life is all about their personal, individual gratification.
I agree on the importance of responsibilities and how they tie into society. But wouldn’t you say society has evolved because we recognized that some old “rules” were more about control than cooperation? Personal freedom comes with responsibility, but it also means having the space to make decisions that are right for us individually, without being stuck in a one size fits all box. It’s healthier when everyone’s on the same page because they want to be, not because they’re forced to be.
@MzAsh No, I don't think you an remove the rules that kept society together and say it's better. The people who insist on changing the rules are not even experts on how these rules might impact society at large, nor do they care. It's like letting someone who has no clue about car engines modify your car engine because it FEELS good to them and they hope, wish, want it to result in something better happening. I believe the people who built western society knew much better than those claiming that we need to 'evolve' today know. Also they're trying to change almost everything at once. It's strange they even need our society to work from instead of going off and starting something from scratch. Oh... they need a lot of what is in a working society... things they have no clue how to create themselves. If we gave all of the groups who say they know best what they wanted, the system will collapse. And they will claim it's not their fault. You'll see. I don't think we have much longer to wait to find out what the end result is.
You’re suggesting that personal freedom is the downfall of society, but isn’t the essence of a thriving society the ability of its individuals to make choices that best suit their lives and happiness? When you talk about people changing the rules, you’re not acknowledging that societies evolve by nature. And when you talk about the collapse due to personal freedoms, are you considering that the rigidity of old norms often led to hidden sufferings and a false sense of societal harmony? I think it’s possible that what we’re seeing now is not the breakdown of society, but rather an adjustment period as we shift towards a more open and honest one. How do you reconcile the idea of a static society with the historical fact that societies are always changing as we learn and grow?
Well that's impossible. I mean it is a direct Conflicting decision and it doesn't get any simpler than that. A mismatch is a mismatch. It's bold but crystal clear.
This is closely correlated to wanting and not wanting kids when dating.
If it's his kid she's aborting and he wants it expecting him to support her decision to murder his child is ridiculous. If he doesn't want the kid he should have the option of paternal surrender/paper abortion.
Exactly. Women are just selfish creatures only thinking Scott themselves
About*
"effectively communicate their own emotions and concerns" -- like what? The man has very little invested in a pregnancy.
Because we love our partners and want them to be happy. And we expect the same from them.
They shouldn’t. Abortion is wrong and its not a decision anybody should be supporting
I wouldn’t be. What’s wrong is wrong and I’m not going to support you
Thats true. But they won’t be getting any support from me
They’re gonna have to
I'd keep my mouth shut, she wouldn't listen to me anyways. A woman will never listen to what a man has to say about an abortion.
Why would I support you if I disagree with your decision? What kind of simping bs is that?
I agree with @AngryCarl
Gee, I don't know.
Let me think.
How can I support you while plotting murder... hummm.
Ooo am sorry but some things need changing not support….
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