Did Israel intentionally let Hamas commit the October 7th attack?

[Juxtapose]

I have a friend who is falling for Hamas propaganda and to me it is ridiculous to think that the Israeli government would let their own people be raped and killed to justify killing Palestinians.

He says they intentionally withdrew security and they knew the attack was going to happen. I normally don't like using CNN as a source (all corporate news media should be taken with a huge grain of salt) but here it is:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/01/middleeast/israel-hamas-gaza-intelligence-intl/index.html

Seems to me like Israel did not take the threat seriously and this sounds a lot like people blaming George W Bush for 9/11 when you can't really prove he intentionally let it happen.

I hate Bush, but the burden of proof is important.

[Anonymous]

“You can’t really prove it”

Sigh.

I’m always amazed that people think the very same people that orchestrated multiple agencies and who wield tremendous political power and influence would allow someone to “prove” anything. Pray tell, who is this official mouth-piece who would break the story and tell everyone that Bush or whomever was responsible for 9/11? Do you seriously think CNN would EVER say something like that? The NY Times?

“Breaking news fold, the same people that pay our salaries and own our news stations decided to let us report on all the shady things they do!” 🙄

Do you seriously think the IDF or ANY media outlet in Israel would allow ANYONE to run a story that is contrary to their narrative on October 7th? Even if they did, who cares! It’s not “official.”

The same officials responsible are the very same officials that you expect to “prove” their own crimes. It’s childish and naive.

Just keep tuning into your official nes outlets and reading your official papers. I’m sure they will officially come clean with their crimes 🙄

[Juxtapose]

I look at independent reporters such as Glenn Greenwald the most. I largely avoid corporate news media outlets.

[Juxtapose]

He's an award-winning journalist and has gone against the establishment.

[Juxtapose]

And also the burden of proof is still a thing.

[Avicenna]

Not for people who hate Jews. They'll always assume the worst.

[RavVid]

First Israel did not make Hamas invade and kill Israelis. Hamas decided to do that all by themselves.

So your friend thinks Israel deliberately made it easy for Hamas. That is the most your friend can claim. Oh the poor Hamas babies were suckered in by the Israelis to go on a murder spree. Hamas made that decision not Israel. Israel was just incompetent. That does not make them guilty of more than incompetence.

Look Pearl Harbor, 9/11 and a couple of events in Israel history were military incompetence because they weren't prevented. Can't argue against that. But to argue that it wasn't sheer incompetence but was a deliberate government policy to allow those events to happen is just fucked in the head.

If your friend is this stupid he is not going to reason his way out of it. Just let him go.

[Juxtapose]

I tried to get through to him that there is a pretty large burden of proof on him to prove that Israel let that happen on purpose. He sees some dots he could connect if he made some assumptions and he is more than willing to make assumptions against Israel unfortunately.

[Juxtapose]

He's more cynical of Israel than I am of Bush.

[RavVid]

So it was Israel's fault that they didn't have enough troops on the border to dissuade Hamas from attacking. It's your fault I hit you because you didn't hit me before I hit you to warn me starting a fight was a bad idea.

Initially I was fairly dubious but I must say pro palestine people are doing a good job of convincing me to be pro Israel.

[DryGermanGuy]

For every bad thing that is happening in the world, there is a conspiracy nutjob ready to vomit his insulting nonsense upon us.


„Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by neglect, ignorance or incompetence.“
- Hanlon‘s Razor

[Juxtapose]

I usually don't agree with you but this is one of those times where I absolutely do.

[strateguy632]

the one who directly does the action is guilty. can't blame others indirectly for action done by #palestinian.

if i park in handicapped spot, i will blame cops for letting me? they didn't block me?

[Juxtapose]

Well at the same time if you know your mom is going to be murdered and you just let it happen you are complicit.

[BCA6010]

Given how many news reporters actively participated in the terrorist attacks themselves, I find it difficult to believe that Israel wouldn't have known something was up, but it's entirely plausible and likely that they didn't understand the scale.

I don't really buy a lot of the 9/11 conspiracies especially revolving around Bush personally, but I find some of them more believable than the idea that Israel intentionally let the October 7th attacks happen.

[Avicenna]

Well, I assume the Israelis will investigate why the attack occurred, but I don't believe for one second they'd simply allow it to happen. Complacency? Sure. Intelligence failure? Sure. But deliberately allowing it to occur? No way.

[Juxtapose]

Yeah, the burden of proof for proving it was deliberate is pretty damn high.

[Telekinetic-Potato]

Almost certainly. That guy on Twitter said it best, I don't support hamas and I don't support netanyahu but I do support the Israelis and the Palestinians.

But these problems were funded by the US.

[Juxtapose]

Do you have any evidence?

[Telekinetic-Potato]

There's a lot to it, but probably the most damming example would be Biden releasing Iran's money that Trump had frozen in a south Korean bank after signing the peace deal. Iran at the time was threatening Isreal with air strikes. When Biden lifted the sanctions, it gave Iran instant access to 6 billion dollars and hamas shortly after became much more sophisticated. It is also not really contested their money came from Iran.

Biden has a long history of profiting off wars. He has received the most money out of anyone in American government office (Hillary Clinton not far behind) at over 10 million

Also, notice how everyone thought Israel should go to hell right up until we said we were going to support them and then all of a sudden on Oct 7 basically the whole un supported a war there.

Ukraine is said to be a money laundering and cover up operation and now weapons are being rerouted from there to Israel.

Also think about how weird it was that Trump was netanyahu's only friend publically at the time and he always got into altercations with him, even though he used America's influence to declare favorable borders to Israel's side. Basically subverting most of the need for there to be a watlr in the first place.

All of a sudden after Biden released Iran's funds, there's all sorts of people and countries sending money there and all sorts of people making money from it.

Hamas was also partially funded by shady charities which it has been estimated that over 50% of their funding came from anonymous Americans.

[normalice]

Wouldn't surprise me. Putin backs both Hamas and Netanyahu, after all. The only person in power it hurts by having the two fight is Biden. He really really really >really< wants Trump back in office.

[Juxtapose]

The war blocks an oil route the USA and Israel profit from.. yet we go to war over oil? Make it make sense.

What does the USA or Israel have to gain from this?

[normalice]

It is only specific people in the USA and Israel that benefit from this, not the whole countries. And nearly all of those people are Putin-aligned.

[Juxtapose]

Why do you think Putin would rather do business with jihadi terrorists than Israel?

[normalice]

Ultimately, Putin is at war with democracy. Israel is a democracy, or at least was. When it's leader is a far right criminal who suspends elections while at war to stay in power and avoid prosecution, then it is not a democracy. So, by pushing Hamas to attack, he gets like four things he wants at once.

[Dongie]

To me hamas is the Mideast version of liberals. The propaganda, no regard for human life and turn down the thing they want in a separate state. Because what they really want is non-existance of Jews.

[RebelinSteel]

Just when Americans prove some are not stupid enough, you get a stupid question like this. You can make it up how stupid some of you are across the Atlantic. Beggars belief.

[Juxtapose]

Did you have anything other than ad hominem attacks and arguing from incregibility? I don't want to waste my time.

[RebelinSteel]

Your friend is incredibly stupid, that it who it is aimed at. But hey ho, you go for it, social media stuff like this gets believed by those who are looking to stir racism. But don’t let it stop you adding to the overall racists attacks.

[Juxtapose]

Ohhhh hahaha joke's on you because my friend is German.

[Juxtapose]

He is from Turkey and lives in Germany.

[RebelinSteel]

Your nationality is?

[Juxtapose]

But yeah it is pretty stupid to believe that Israel orchestrated that.

[RebelinSteel]

Exactly
It is like 9/11
No country lets that just happen. With Israel the threats are always there, 24/7, you let your guard down you get hit, a terrorist only needs to be lucky once.

[Juxtapose]

I am American, so perhaps a Yank to you. I favor Israel over jihadi terrorists. I don't think Hamas is legitimate at all except as a threat.

They put out so much propaganda too.

[Cazaputas]

No, because a war was not convenient for Israel, nor for the United States, since it ruined their oil route.

[JayBones]

I think Israel IS Hamas, just like they are the CIA and we're Isis. Israel killed their own people to justify the ethnic cleansing in Gaza.

[Juxtapose]

What does Israel have to gain with pointless murder? This is self defense

[JayBones]

It has the land, the resources, and old testament prophecy to fulfill. They seek their Messiah, the Antichrist and are growing impatient

[Juxtapose]

Israel and the United States lost a good oil route because of this war.

[Lliam]

And Israel will gain the massive oil and gas fields off of Gaza's coast.

Israel has every motive. It gains everything it ever wanted.

[Juxtapose]

@Lliam well to prove that Israel let these attacks happen there needs to be a rather large burden of proof. If what you say is true that is enough to be suspicious but that is not proof.

[Lliam]

@Juxtapose. What? Do you expect Israel to admit it? They won't even allow the UN or journalists to investigate. Hell, they murder journalists in cold blood.

But one can look at the details of what happened that day and in the lead up. Hamas "surprised" Israel? LOL

One can look at Israel's m. o. over the years. Its leaders have no honor. They don't value human life. They would gladly sacrifice a few Israelis to look like a victim while achieving their goals. Ever heard of a false flag?
And of the 1200 Israeli's who were killed, most of which were IDF, it is widely acknowledged that half were killed by the IDF, itself.
They are like the mugger who repeatedly gets caught holding a knife while standing over a bloody corpse and gets acquitted every time by claiming self defense.

And, most of all, one can look at motive. Qui bono?
As JayBones said, Israel "has the land, the resources, and old testament prophecy to fulfill. They seek their Messiah, the Antichrist and are growing impatient." I added the part about the Leviathan Oil Fields when you asked about the pipeline.

Did it require a large burden of proof for you to believe the nonsense about soldiers under fire taking time out to rape women to death or bake infants in ovens?

[Juxtapose]

@Lliam you're believing Pallywood too much. These jihadi terrorists put out a lot of propaganda concerning Israel to the point where they will fake large amounts of people dying, they will use AI to say Israel used AI to fake something itself and so on.

Hamas leadership has said they will not accept any terms of surrender unless Israel ceases to exist. They have orders coming from the top down to rape and subjugate Jews.

The Israeli military is the only military in the world that will give civilians a heads up of where they plan to strike so the civilians have a chance to evacuate.

You could say the USA did a whole bunch of fucked up shit in Vietnam right? But does that make us like jihadi terrorist because there was some squads that were bad apples?

[Juxtapose]

Israel has been attacked since its foundation by bloodthirsty jihadis who will say any lie or do anything to kill jews. They have no bottom line.

[Juxtapose]

(the jihad terrorists have no bottom line)

[Juxtapose]

www.hamas-massacre.net/categories/mass-rapes

Do you have any videos like this of the israelis?

[Juxtapose]

Literally taking women bleeding from the crotch into cars while shouting Allah Akbar.

Fucking want to be Nazis.

[Lliam]

@Juxtapose. You believe fairy tales, dude. You believe with your whole heart that they are reality. And that belief prevents you from looking any further or even employing critical thinking.

[slatyb]

Hamas did it and the have reaped the whirlwind. Very complex and sad situation, mostly created by European and the US.

[Unit1]

We, the commoners, peasants and peons can not know.

[patois]

Israeli intelligence was ordered to stand down.

[Juxtapose]

Why? Citation?

[strateguy632]

as if you were at the meeting and heard. sarcasm.

[OddBeMe]

Indirectly… more like Bush allowed Bin Laden to hit us by focusing on Saddam.

This certainly takes the spotlight off Netanyahu’s corruption issues. But he’s now being blamed for allowing the worst attack ever on his watch.

[exitseven]

No, and FDR did not know that the Japanese were launching an attack on Pearl Harbor

[Jamie05rhs]

No. They did not. Like you said, it's propaganda from Hamas. (Something they are really good at, by the way. The have perfected the art.)

[Pterodon]

No I don’t believe they let it happen

[Kykiono1]

No I don't think so

[jimmy2]

Are you kidding no way