Is there a balance between feminism and manosphere though?

[RyanEC]

I don’t like feminists because they seem to hate all men and have a victim complex.

But it seems like manosphere, incels, MGTOW and red pillars believe that women women should be submissive and stay at home and take care of kids.

Both these seem extreme.
Is there a balance where men and women are equal.

[Flatmanlewis]

If I understand the question right, is there a middle ground in which these two worldviews are able to agree on some issues - a middle ground? No. I don’t think there is. They are both on the extreme edge of a mindset which is not compatible in any way.


Is there an objective way many of these people can learn to see each others view of the issue? Maybe but it depends on individuals not the causes as a large movement.


I have had some fun debates with self-admitted feminists over some issues like women in the military and the way women feel
In a public space. I have found them to be mostly reasonable. I also know a man-hating feminist at work who everybody (men & women, equally) generally avoid. She’s just an angry person and hides behind her feminist rants to justify her demeanor. She is the kind that gives feminists a bad name, I think.


I also have met (but don’t really know) two MGTOW guys and while they seemed sad and kind of lost to me they didn’t really exude anger, but rather more of a defeated energy. I think they have just surrendered at the frustration of meeting women and decided ti embrace that defeat and make it a choice rather than a source of embarrassment.


I’ve studied the full-on incel movement for work including reading some psychological journals, and the manifestos of some of their most infamous adherents and they are angry, rage filled, damaged men who need some intense psychological counseling. The overwhelming impression I have of them is their overall anger & intensity is the very reason they cannot connect with women and yet they blame their anger & intensity on their failure to not be able to connect with women. It’s a self-fulfilling process.

[I_Am_Loner0405]

Feminists want a mix of female supremacy and equal rights.
When it comes to the manosphere, half just want to be left alone while the other half want to let out their justifiable anger towards an unfair system created by a gynocentric social order that has groomed both men and women into gynocentrism for years.
It’s probably due to the fact that women are a protected class everyone defends the feminists while calling those involved in the manosphere misandrists and incels without actually listening to why they’re angry and trying to understand to help them let out the pent up anger at an unfair gynocentric society.

[Julie4]

I'd say there are two kinds of feminism. A "classic" feminism and another feminism that is extremist.


The first kind of feminism wants women to have equal rights (the key word here is rights), to be paid the same for equal work, to be free to be whatever they want to be, be it housewives, etc.


The second type of feminism hates men, denies the physical differences between men and women, and so on.

[RyanEC]

I agree Julie.

It does annoy me people in the conservative side tend to have weird views about women, a lot think that they should be submissive which I never believed in.

[Julie4]

Well, I don't know if "real" conservatives think like that. For example de Gaulle was a conservative, Catholic and in fact monarchist. He was the one who gave women the right to vote and so on.

But now, as you wrote, we're faced with two extreme idiots

[RyanEC]

I didn’t know that about De Gaulle.

It seems like one extreme create another.

[RyanEC]

I didn’t know De Gaulle was a monarchist as well.

Why didn’t he bring the monarchy back.

[Julie4]

Exactly. The funny thing is that you asked this question. because I posted an article written by a French philosopher who is a feminist. And after translate it, I saw your question.

[Julie4]

Because de Gaulle was a realist, the French were no longer monarchists.

[RyanEC]

I’ll need to check that post out then.

I like Thaïs’es videos but sometimes she goes too far in the anti feminist side.

I actually asked her a question on a Q&A stream.
It was a question about how possible future advancements in youth rejuvenation and extended female fertility would affect male female relations, feminism and the birthrate in the west.

She answered but in French so I didn’t understand most of her answer.

It seemed she was unconvinced in the potential but found it interesting.

[Julie4]

Thaïs is crazy lol

But if you want to send me her answer I'll do the translation

[RyanEC]

I think she just leaves them up for a short time and takes them down.

I will cope and paste if she re uploads,

I wanted to see if she could consider a new possibility.

[Anonymous]

Not really. Both sides have become so extreme and bitter toward the other that neither seems to care anymore about "equality". They just want to hate on each other and play the victim. I don't think there is ever going to be any reconciliation between the two sides. Society should just acknowledge they are both toxic and should not be given any credibility anymore.

[RingOfFire]

Nature, evolution and biology designed men and women for different roles in the family unit that exist to maximize the survival of the species. "Equality" is a contrived subjective concept. Nature doesn't care about equality, it is what it is. If equality means the elimination of the roles that are necessary for survival of the human race, no sane person would support it. Thus we have a lot of insane people around who are obsessed with this non-existent "equality" fixation.

[Hanrej]

Well, the original idea behind feminism was equality. You'd think that meant they'd put in the same work to achieve the same benefits but modern feminism is all about equal outcome regardless of contribution wich basically means men have to work twice as hard to make women earn the same salary.

On top of wich modern feminism still think men should pursue, make effort and pay for making a relationship happen so if you're on the feminist side you agree to being robbed twice to give women the life they want... At your expense.

I don't really know if mgtow believe women should be submissive. The way I understand the movement is that they won't adhere to feminist ideals and prefer to spend their lives as single rather than give away twice the fruits of their labour.

[Anonymous]

It's funny because feminists believe that women should be dominant and men should be submissive.

Both sides... feminists on one side and the manoshpere on the other... are extreme and divisive, and both just keep throwing fuel on the fire and making matters worse. But let's be clear that MGTOW and red pillars only exist because of the sexism and hate started by feminism, and they would disapear tomorrow if feminism went away. That's the only way we'll ever achieve the balance you speak of, and begin to repair the damage done to gender relations.

[Anonymous]

True feminists just want equality. I wouldn't call the majority of the women today true feminists. The women of today want equality, but they still want free drinks.😆 And no, there is no balance when a woman's stance is, "Your gender controlled the last 2000 years so we get to control the next 2000". That's thier view of equality.

All you can do in that case is get up from the negotiating table till they're ready to negotiate. And given how women are I think it's safe to say that isn't going to happen till they need a jar of pickles opened.😆

[goaded]

The balance is called feminism. That's what they've been fighting for forever. The right to own property, the right to vote, the right to manage their own affairs, their bodies.

The people trying to take those things away are the extremists.

[Agagagagaga]

“The balance is called feminism. That's what they've been fighting for forever.”

Really? I mean “forever” is a really long time.

Were the feminists “fighting” against the men in , oh I don’t know, 927AD? Hmm?

Was anyone trying to “take” rights away from women in 1349?

What about in 1500? The feminists fighting for their rights then?

Or were all the men back then “extremists”?

🙄

But I know, I know. History isn’t one of your strengths. Neither is logical or basic problem solving...

[goaded]

@Agagagagaga Way to miss the point that women had essentially no rights in the times you're talking about. Men didn't have to be extremists, it was just taken for granted. Men fighting against women's rights TODAY are extremists because it's obvious that respecting all people's rights is better than what went before.

[I_Am_Loner0405]

Redirecting all rights? No one respects the rights of men

[goaded]

@I_Am_Loner0405 Of course they do.

[Anpu23]

To me the defining belief of feminism is Patriarchy Theory, while the other side has the defining belief of gynocenterism. Until. both theories are completely and irrefutabley disproven there will be no center ground.

[abc3643]

YOU:

"I don’t like feminists because they seem to hate all men and have a victim complex."

ME:

I don’t like the manosphere because they seem to hate all women and have a victim complex.

[Agape93]

Just go with actual feminism, equality between the genders, that's all.

[handsomelad70]

There must be for healthy relationships between the sexes and for societal benefit.

[Agape93]

Exactly.

[I_Am_Loner0405]

The red pill portion of the manosphere will never accept that 🤷🏻‍♂️ they feel they are being unfairly treated and the constant demonization and negativity thrust upon them 24/7 doesn’t help. You’re not helping create healthy relationships nor any societal benefit by being gynocentric

[Agape93]

Neither he or I even brought up gynocentrism

[I_Am_Loner0405]

I know, I did. It’s a major factor in this whole debate

[I_Am_Loner0405]

Your lack of mentioning it is an issue

[Agape93]

How? I'm talking about equality, not androcentrism or gynocentrism, im not discussing misandry or misogyny. Those are irrelevant if the relationship is based in equality.

So if you can't stick to the things being discussed, then fuck off, because neither of us were talking to you, and right now you're being an annoyance.

[I_Am_Loner0405]

Do you even know what gynocentrism is?

[I_Am_Loner0405]

Remind me what equality is?

[Agape93]

I'm done feeding a troll. Fuck off

[Billlewis]

I would say no.