Should Harris Invoke The 25th Amendment Against Biden?

[Ladsin2]

I think everyone agrees the rationale for removing Biden from the ticket in disgrace was because he clearly isn't capable for the office. If that's the case is it not incumbent on Harris to invoke the 25th?

Republican, yes

Republican, no

Democrat, yes

Democrat, no

Other

[AviatorTom]

Independent, No. That could have been done months ago. It would only hurt Harris's chances in the Presidential election. As President, she wouldn't be able to campaign as much, and she would be directly blamed for anything negative, like the upcoming government shutdown.

Simply put, it's not in her interest to invoke the 25th Amendment now.

[Ladsin2]

Interesting. You took the question of "should" as if it's in anyone's best interest rather than a moral imperative. I took the question as the latter. Interesting response though. Thanks.

[AviatorTom]

@ladsin2 Very little in Politics is done for moral reasons. Politicians do things that are in their own best interests. Sometimes that corresponds with their constituency's best interests, but not always. The typical goal of a politician is to get in power, and then stay there.

[Ladsin2]

Right, the way I interpreted the question; however, was "Should (morally) Kamala Invoke The 25th." You and a few others interpreted it instead as, "Would It Be In Kamala's Interest To Invoke..."

No fault of y'alls. I just found it interesting that we considered the question in different ways. Thanks for the answer.

[AviatorTom]

@ladsin2 Thanks for MHO

[MisterWack]

You guys can’t wait a few more months? He’ll be out, just be patient lol.

President Biden has been threatened by Republican Congress of invoking the 25th Amendment however aren’t going to do it because they know he can perform the tasks of the presidency well. It isn’t going to happen.

[Ladsin2]

I'm the one asking questions here bub.
If he's competent in the role why was he forced out?

[MisterWack]

@ladsin2 First, “ I'm the one asking questions here bub.” is such a strong opening 10/10 🤣👏🏻
It is so MERICA FUCK YEAH energy, awesome 😎🤘🏼🇺🇸
Now seriously number two… He was forced out because the Democratic Party saw polls that suggested him staying in the race not only affected the presidential outcome, but Congress & Senate & Local Elections which would’ve undone Democratic gains in an instant which if you saw how the media reacted you would know was a route they didn’t want to go down. President Biden got Covid19 and was isolated in his Delaware home, a bunch of his closest advisors showed him polls if Harris were to sub in and they looked promising (not only that, but Harris would help uplift the local, Congress, and Senate elections too) that is why Biden dropped out because the pressure was too high & he didn’t want to risk being the biggest Achiles Heel of the Democratic Party. I could go into more details that really don’t matter since we saw the outcome, there really doesn’t need to be a play by play.

President Biden I think did the right thing since Americans across the board hated choosing between one old dude and another old dude.

[Ladsin2]

Firstly, I thought it was a pretty funny response.
Secondly, why do you think Biden was doing poorly in the polls, particularly after the debate? What do you think is the perception of both his allies and the American public of him?

[MisterWack]

@ladsin2 First, thanks or perhaps you are complementing yourself…. Either way I genuinely loved the introduction (I don't know what else to call it sorry if I offend or whatever lol)
Second, after the debate he was doing bad… The reception was he looked weak, was old, looked like he was going to fall asleep…. After being asked about abortion he somehow started stumbling then ended it worse with “That’s when we finally beat medicare”.
What do I think is the perception of both his allies and the American public of him? That is complicated, after he lost the debate every Democrat I talked to IRL & from all the posts online went something like “he’s going to lose…. I love him, but he has to go”. Biden had to constantly meet with Congressmen / women and a lot dropped out of endorsing him calling publicly to resign. The American Public once he dropped out and endorsed Harris, everyone praised him for stepping aside and giving support to Harris including me.

I haven’t been shy to showcase my support of President Biden (as a former Trump supporter) and…. Will admit I was mad at his debate performance even knowing the legislative achievements and all also Conservative victories by attempting to reach across the aisle even if Republicans refused to vote anyway (Inflation Reduction Act is an example) back to the main focus, regardless I felt it was his time to step down and let Americans be lifted free. The only way to beat Trump and keep the gains Democrats had was to drop out or at least because of the internal polling Biden received. I believe he made the right choice ultimately for not just Democrats, but Americans as a whole.

[Ladsin2]

I was complimenting myself. Your acknowledgement was appreciated.
What's your response to the ~60% of Americans who think he's senile? Perhaps we simply have a disagreement on the perception of him. I think the reason he was forced out was because he had been senile for some time evidenced by his inability to maintain a train of thought and constantly getting lost in public. This issue was painted over for some time, but after the debate could no longer be hidden. Once it couldn't be hidden all of his "allies" pulled out their knives and shivved him. Do you think my assessment is just really far off?

[MisterWack]

@ladsin2 I think it is a difference of perception honestly. Like there was a viral clip of Biden “getting lost” that turned out to be a cropped vertical edit to make it seem like they needed some lady to bring him back to reality (I found it funny the edit tbh) though if you watched the horizontal he was approaching a parachuter who just landed and he wanted to greet him. There were gaffes that he said while in office compared to when he was running for office though I will say Trump had gaffes before 2017 taking office then post 2017 and has gotten worse. From saying windmills are killing sharks, calling his future Vice President pick ‘JP Mandel’, thinking there were airports in American Revolutionary War, and forgetting he wasn’t on ground zero on “Seven Eleven” & requesting us to “take a look at the oranges of the investigation… the beginnings”. I believe Biden is mentally strong enough to continue his last months in office and if he isn’t I’m sure after November 5th he would step down and have Harris take over his duties though I doubt she will forcefully remove him.

Again, I said my piece on the whole removal from the campaign trail and the reasons why actions were taken. I don’t think it was mental decline, though it was the first debate being a turning point in the polls. Congressmen / women even met with Biden concerned for his campaign and he reassured them though that didn’t last long…. Pelosi said she knew he had a cold & was tired due to all the traveling for WWII reunion of veterans and he pushed himself too hard though stood her ground that he should step away from this election.

[Ladsin2]

Thanks for the response.

[NamerOfStars]

No- there's really nothing to be gained. It's not in her interest- she'd lose the ability to deflect blame for Biden's actions, and look power-hungry in the meantime. It's not in the interest of the Democratic party- besides the blame factor, they're pushing for the "first female President" thing, and even though she wouldn't become President, the enthusiasm for that would fizzle out before she actually took office, assuming she wins in November. It's not the in the country's interest- she's a literal diversity hire and horribly underqualified for the job, being in an even worse position than Obama was*, and he at least was competent and charismatic. It's not the interest of Trump, who'd lose the ability to criticize her for not doing it. It's not in the interest of the voters, who SHOULD, but overwhelming aren't, ask themselves why someone who's not competent to run for President is still competent to BE President. The one and only group that would see a net gain from it is the company that made Metal Wolf Chaos, since it would be grounds for a sequel.

*: Jack Ryan was an Illinois Senator who was forced from power after it was discovered that he was bringing his wife (actress Jeri Ryan) to sex clubs (against her will, because this was a Republican sex scandal). The scramble to fill his seat saw the GOP nominate Alan Keyes, who'd recently gone on a prolonged tirade against Hillary Clinton for running for Congress for New York, despite not living there. Any guess as to which part of Illinois Keyes was from? Did you guess "Maryland"? He wasn't taken at all seriously, and so swept into Ryan's office functionally unopposed was a young man named Barack Obama, who you may have heard of; were it not for Republican corruption and incompetence, he never would've seen office- not without a real struggle, at least.

Incidentally, if you look up "Illinois Ryan scandal", you'll have to be more specific, or you'll get results from the governor Ryan scandal, where it turned out the state was selling CDLs to unqualified people. That state's government just sucks.

[Ladsin2]

Interesting. You took the question of "should" as if it's in anyone's best interest rather than a moral imperative. I took the question as the latter. Interesting response though. Thanks.

[WindAtMyBack]

Nope.

1) Biden did not leave in disgrace. There is nothing disgraceful about getting old. There is nothing disgraceful about dementia.

2) Let him finish his term. He shouldn't run for another four year term. But it's not going to hurt anything to leave him office a few more months. He is surrounded by people advising him just like he always has been.

3) I would MUCH rather have Biden in his current condition than Harris. Politically, Biden is moderate. Harris is WAY further to the left than Biden.

4) It might hurt the Democrats and especially Harris, possibly very seriously. (I would rejoice, but from her point of view it's pretty negative.)

[Ladsin2]

I disagree mainly with 1 and 3. Can you explicate more on your thoughts of those?
1) I think it's in disgrace because he clearly didn't want to do it until all of his "friends" turned their knives on him and said they wouldn't support him. He was indignant for weeks after the debate saying that unless god himself came down he wouldn't step out. Then under threat of not having any support he dropped out. I would call that being forced out and ungracefully. After the fact they've decided to start praising him as a hero, but I think the majority of the American public view him as senile.
3.) I agree that Harris is further left than Biden, but I don't believe Biden is moderate by any normal definition of that phrase. He called for a wave of migrants to surge the border and we got it. He let in tens of millions of illegal migrants. He tried to usurp OSHA and use them to cram down a vaxx mandate on many tens of millions of people that didn't want it... etc. This may all be moderate for a modern democrat, but this is quite wildly progressive in my estimation. I think democrats voted for Biden, but got Bernie.

[WindAtMyBack]

It's not a disgrace to Biden. If anything it's a disgrace to the Democrat leadership for letting it go on for so long. No doubt they knew about this long ago. Most likely they were hoping to get Biden through the election, then get him to resign, or invoke the 25th. That's disgusting. From my point of view, it seems they were totally using him for their own ends.

With dementia and other age related issues, it's usually up to the family and friends to deal with it. It's up to them to tell someone to stop driving. It's up to them to tell someone to stop cooking after they forgot something on the stove too many times. It's up to them to take their pills away because they kept taking the wrong ones.

It was up to the Democrats to not let Biden run another term, or pick someone else as the candidate. They let it go WAY too far and that is entirely on them.

As for Biden being a moderate, moderate presidents almost always move in the direction of their party when they are in office. They need their party support to function. It's politically expedient to do so. A strong or very popular president doesn't need to move so far, but most do. That doesn't make them not moderate. It just means they are being politicians.

[Ladsin2]

1) Ok, I think I understand your distinction. My understanding is that you're saying it's not disgraceful to Biden, it's just a sad fact of life that people get old and can't function the same. Is that correct?
2) I suppose that's an interesting question. Is a person what they internally believe or what they do? It seems like we both agree that he's governed quite progressively, but we also both believe that he doesn't hold those positions himself. As an 80 year old man I'm quite certain, for example, that he doesn't like seeing nude men parade themselves in front of children, but he has to say that he's supportive of it for The Party.

[Yabbut]

She should, but she won't. If she did, she'd assume the office, then she'd have to own what she does or does not do. Right now she can hide behind her office being more or less ceremonial.

[strateguy632]

R. Yes.