Papers Please: Are we too lax with cops asking for ID?

[OddBeMe]

Or do we trust cops to use their spidey sense on criminals? Im honestly middle ground.

I trust cops. If theyre hiding ID its for a reason

Ehh... even if theyre criminals, they have an expectation of privacy

Other

[DrPepper12]

Fuck them. They get only what they're legally allowed to have!

I will record the entire interaction.

I will ask if their body cam is on & check indicator light

I will ask that the cam remain wired for sound the entire interaction - no muting the mike.

I will ask name & badge number.

I will ask directly these questions:

"Am I being detained?" "Why?"

I will assert I give no consent for search or seizure per 4th Amendment.

I will assert my right to remain silent per the 5th amendment.

THEN AND ONLY THEN I WILL PRESENT (NOT SURRENDER) my docs as required by law. I will not roll down my window but put my docs up against glass.

Any questions? Silence

Any directives? "Is that a lawful order officer?"

They are NOT your friend and less trustworthy than the criminals they consort with.

[DryGermanGuy]

You have to hand over your documents (cop has to be able to verify that they are real) and you have to get out of the car on request (Pennsylvania v. Mimms).

[DrPepper12]

If they give you an order to exit the vehicle then yes you must comply. In my state I'm only required to present them.

Pennsylvania v. Mimms does not specifically address the presentation or surrender of insurance and registration documents. The case primarily establishes that police officers can order a driver to exit their vehicle during a lawful traffic stop without additional justification, as part of ensuring officer safety. While the case involves a request for the driver's license and registration, it focuses on the legality of ordering the driver out of the car and conducting a pat-down search, rather than the specifics of document presentation or surrender.

[jshm2]

No. Any cop needs to have a good cause, before they can ask for anything. The only exception is with a warrant.

Then you have the fact they can only ask for what is pertinent. They can't pull you up in the street and ask to see the deeds to your house and medical records, for example.

Asking for ID is a pertinent request, but it's only a request. You can be asked for it when purchasing alcohol, for example. Showing it means you get to purchase the alcohol, else you walk out.

[DrPepper12]

Excellent point. It's a REQUEST not a lawful order and you are under NO obligation to comply unless they can reasonably articulate a crime and even then you have a choice under threat of arrest

[Anonymous]

Mine don't show up for major traffic accidents. I wish they cared enough for simple ids.
Most cops know crime going down, laws being broken. It stands out to them. And makes it easier to avoid the paperwork.

[OddBeMe]

Yeah... policing is a lot of spider sense. And of course that's what the courts are for. Perhaps more $$$ for public defenders.

[Opinion Owner]

I'm for that.

[Anonymous]

Depends on how strongly you believe in the Fourth Amendment

[OddBeMe]

Boom. The problem is our examples for why we need the amendments are criminals. But that's how it works. Lol

[noohair]

I trust most cops. They have a job where they are around assho! es and have to remain professional. I have some exposure to cops and I know how hard their job is. I also know that keeping your mouth shut and waiting to see a judge is the easiest path.

[OddBeMe]

I do too... ish. if money wasn't so important in court. How many take pleas? Most

[lightbulb27]

my view is we should all be required to show an ID when engaged, simplifies the issues. cops have to deal with real criminals and it's part of society to enable them to do their job.

making their life difficult causes more problems. what I said may violate constitutional rights.

[Friendlybro79]

If they can't articulate a crime they think you committed why are they stopping you? What's next? Just let them search homes because they feel like it?

[Friendlybro79]

You might mean well and I'm sure a law abiding citizen but the cops enforce the law they aren't the judge jury and executioner then sometimes act like. I am pro good policing not breaking the law. If they break the law to do their job how is that ok?

[lightbulb27]

@Friendlybro79 your point is valid and that's why the ruels aren't that direction. If they pull you over for suspecting something legit... light is out, color car matches one that left a bank robbery, Id say, must present ID.
That goes closer to police state and as crime drops, then you shift the laws back. But for now, I favor catching crooks. We have way way too many criminals getting away with stuff because the police are handcuffed. just recently a guy sped away from police, putting lives of many at risk. happens all the time.
catch criminals and law offenders, prosecute, beat them, jail them.. whatever it takes. lives are being lost due to the selfisheness of a few. I want security while on the roads and can't get it right now. Ask my why insurance rates so high... criminals. we pay in $, sometimes with bodily injury or life. I'll gladly show my ID if that helps.

[lightbulb27]

same answer under biden or trump or harris...

[DrPepper12]

@lighbulb27. "then you shift the laws back" is naive and dangerous and will lead to a PERMANENT police state!!

If you REALLY wanted security you would heed Ben Franklin's prescient and ominous warning that "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

I'll take the crime and higher insurance over a police state.

[Gold618]

I've never been asked by the police to show ID. Is that unusual?

[DrPepper12]

Yes. It's like crack for these fiends! HIGHLY UNUSUAL!!

[OddBeMe]

I think that is the first wave of investigating for cops

[DryGermanGuy]

Who is „we“ here? The lawmakers? Because they define the legal setup in which the cops get to operate. So when enough people don’t want to live in a stop and identify state, they have to lobby for that in their state legislature.

[DrPepper12]

There are no stop and id states until they can answer "Do you have a reasonable articulable suspicion that I have will or am going to commit a crime?"
Then they get if if they can answer that

[DryGermanGuy]

Traffic stops have nothing to do with crime. When they stop you for a broken light or cracked windshield, it’s about traffic infractions. Of course some cops try to prod you or interview you to find something else, to make it criminal. But these questions you don’t have to answer.

[exitseven]

Cops have a hard job and traffic stops are the most dangerous thing that they do. They want to see an ID to see if they are licensed to drive and also to see if they have outstanding warrants or criminal records.

[DrPepper12]

They better have reasonable article suspicion that I've committed a crime before that happens!!

[exitseven]

@DrPepper12 If you have been observed speeding or some other moving violation , that should be enough to get stopped.

[OddBeMe]

Agreed. Driving is obviously a thing to show papers please. I just see people who some CVS mngr called 911 over for loitering get asked for Id... then yeah get arrested for warrants. But 4th amendment is blurred. We see the inequities of the law from the criminals perspective. Lol

[Sevenpointfive]

if they want to see my insurance that's fine, but they have my license on their computer (and i would think my insurance coverage up to a certain date) so they don't need it unless it's not my car

[Twalli]

I don't have an inherent distrust of cops, but I'm also a white male

[jimmy2]

You must present apon request

Why piss a cop off and get killed
That a waist of life

[msc545]

Depends on the situation.

[NathanDavis]

I just show mine by default

[DrPepper12]

You're a fool. Go to your state ACLU page and print out "what to do for cop interactions"

[NathanDavis]

@DrPepper12 yeah... I live in the real word...

not the one in which you just print a paper and go like "here... this paper says so"

do you really try to end all wars by printing the bible and other religious texts and tell warlords hey look dumbass... "war bad..."

and you speak of fool... lmfao

[Friendlybro79]

@NathanDavis what if they want to strip search you because they think they have to and can't tell you why? Where do you draw the line in where your rights start and stop and need to be respected?

[Friendlybro79]

I hate doing what ifs but the point is the people need to not let police think it's ok to harass people that they can't articulate a crime they suspect them of doing. If you want to hand that right over then what else?

[DrPepper12]

You're joking @NathanDavis.

"@DrPepper12 yeah... I live in the real word...

not the one in which you just print a paper and go like "here... this paper says so"

The print out is so you know your rights if you haven't already committed them to memory. You keep it in your glove compartment with your registration and insurance that way when asked for it you will have a guide as to what is legal and what is not legal.

"this paper" as you so flippantly put it is documentation and a reminder / guide for your rights!! If you're so willing to surrender them and every interaction between citizens and law enforcement result in the same surrender it gives them a sense of impunity and they act like God among men who have a monopoly on violence. If that's the world you want to live in that's fine, but your acquiescence will have consequences for the rest of us.

I apologize for calling you a fool, I should have said that the behavior, not you, is foolish.

I think @Friendlybro79. put it well.

[NathanDavis]

Okay, I'll try to answer to you both... in the same comment @Friendlybro79 and @DrPepper12

first of all... let's limit the question and my answer to the one single thing that was asked, do I show my ID to cops when it is requested? yes, yes I do... as simple as that, because this does not represent any problem whatsoever TO ME, it does not... in fact, if I were to be pulled over of approached by cops, I do, by default hand them my documentation first, which includes clear enough and concise proof of identity, permits, and... any other legal documentation, and, it should be worth noting that most of them time when I do this... the cops say "it's fine" and won't even take it or will take it, look at it very briefly and hand it back, that's it... this is my actual, real experience, in the "world I live in"

now, in the "what if" scenario... which has not been asked in this question, there's a completely different situation going on... to be strip-searched by police is a situation that doesn't happen out of nowhere for no reason, and there would be a series of previous events that would have to happen first to end at this point

[NathanDavis]

and my "rights and their entitlement as law enforcement" lines and boundaries would come into play way earlier, so... if you would like a more elaborate and complex answer, then do provide more context to your "what if scenario" but for now, I could tell you that this has never happened to me, lol

now... I don't need to print my rights, I already know my rights very clearly, and I also know the limitations of the, many agencies, not just police... because, and, to let you two know a bit more on what I said "I live in the real world" I do live in a very particular region of this world, which is the border between USA and Mexico, I do live and work on both sides, so... not only I have to follow and comply with the law of two countries, but also few states... and not just police, but few agencies, like the Border agencies, the State and Federal police, local police, a few tree-letter agencies, military bodies and also... a "few letter agencies" also known as Cartels (bad hombres)

for all, in which, by experience and very well lessons learned I can tell you that the best policy for my safety and also for me to get to where I want to go way faster and quicker... is, to clearly and immediately identify myself, it is better for all of them to know right away who are they dealing with... and why too...

[Anonymous]

It's called racial profiling.