It’s mind blowing
I think, like many social and political issues, that illegal immigration is a complex issue that there is no easy answer to. People come in search of work or economic opportunity, to join family, or to study. Studies do indicate that most illegal immigrants come for better economic opportunities. Others move to escape conflict, persecution or large-scale human rights violations. Also, the legal path for immigration to the US is actually very limited. So, basically, people come here legally or illegally, often to escape unbearable conditions in their own countries, and almost always for the opportunities available in this wonderful country of ours. From a strictly humanitarian viewpoint, how can we fault anyone for that? But, we are supposed to be, and pride ourselves on being, a nation of laws. And we have immigration laws. I think most people will agree those laws desperately need to be reviewed and adjusted if our broken immigration system is going to become viable again.
So, either the laws need to be observed or they need to be changed. And THAT is a whole huge, messy and long debate on what the best course of action is. But it is a debate that desperately needs to happen. However, in the meantime, the way things are currently being handled is appalling, especially for a nation that also prides itself on its stance on human rights violations. Law enforcement needs to follow established policies and, especially, constitutional procedures in dealing with deportation. According to our Constitution, ALL people on US soil, citizens or not, are to be afforded due process under the law. Just because there are thousands of cases or it is inconvenient does not justify ignoring this Constitutional right. Again, follow the law or create a constitutional amendment, which is no easy process. That's kind of my thoughts in a nutshell, there's a whole lot more that could be said, but I think this gives the big picture for my thoughts on it. @Kingofkings1992 I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on “harm.”
I agree entirely with this. I think you make very valid points. A lot of things about the way our society operates needs some massive overhaul. However, I do think that there is a point where someone can be overly empathetic, which is where I think you stand. Many undocumented people are decent people, I’m not disputing that at all. I don’t think they are all dangerous people, but at the end of the day, it’s still a crime. I think illegal immigration has the potential to depress wages for US citizens, because undocumented workers will work for significantly lower pay. Not only depress wages, but at the same time take away work opportunities for US citizens. It puts a strain on social services, which can lead to higher costs for US citizens for things like healthcare. Coming into a country illegally also undermines the efforts and adherence to rules of individuals who follow legal immigration procedures. Rules that are well founded and in place for a reason. Without rules, there is chaos. @Caroline91 sorry about the last response. I was swamped at work
@Kingofkings1992 Thanks for your reply. I think there are points you make that sound valid, but could be debated, based on evidence. Yes, I am empathic, but that just means, for me, that things should be done in a more humane way. I come down on the side of following the law and if the laws aren't working, then have the public debate and change them. In general, I believe in majority rule. if we keep tearing the "other side" down, everything is stymied and nothing works. However, there are times when something is so egregiously wrong that we have to stand up for the greater good. The sticky point is determining when that time is. And I absolutely agree that we need rules/laws to prevent chaos and have an orderly society. But, we also need our citizens and the people who represent us to have integrity. And it seems that is in short supply right now, which saddens me.
Most of the US are descents of immigrants. They just "lucky" they aren't recent immigrants. The difference in-between illegal immigration and immigration is time, paradigms, classism.
Funniest are those that brag about being in the US for generations, back in the days, countries shipped the lowest of low to the US with a one way ticket.
@Dongie I make perfect sense. Ain't my fault education has failed you miserably mister descended of trash.
They DO undrstand. But they are nihilistic, they are still butthurt that their Soviet Dream turned out to be a monstrosity, and they just want to tear everything down.
They even have formed common cause with Islamic extremism, which really IS a Molotov - Ribbentrop Pact for the 21st century. When the jihadists go all Operation Barbarossa on them, I will get out the popcorn.
We really DO need a non-alcoholic Joe McCarthy for the 21st Century. Perhaps Senator Ted Cruz would work out in this role?
After all, if it turns out that the USA really DOES need all that labor (rather than cajoling our own native born underclass to do it and make it worth their while), we could always revive the "bracero" programs in days of yore, and have a regulated labor process.
But NO, the Left just wants a chaotic border through which underage girls, heroin, fentanyl, and other bad things can be trafficked. THAT is what the Demunists really want, and also to have an ever larger lumpenproletariat underclass to exploit.
And sadly, they were joined in this by the globalist greedhead faction in the Republican Party, who couldn't see past ever cheaper gardeners and maids. They remind me of what Lenin said, paraphrased: when the time comes to hang the capitalists, they will have imported the mob with which to do it.
Liberals tend to conflate and intertwine data points and make appeals to emotion in deceptive ways.
In the case of immigration, they like to mix legal and illegal immigration and then talk about how illegal immigrants would prefer to come in legally, but they're just so desperate to live a better life that they have to break our laws.
Opinion
17Opinion
You mean like filling labour shaortages and boosting the economy? Terrible.
… and paying taxes! These perverts! 😱
Boosting the economy? That’s hilarious. You mean putting a strain on resources and causing economic losses?
Yes, boosting the economy. Immigration has been a economic topic and factor since the Republican Nixon administration which were followed by more Republican administrations of Ford, Reagan, HW. Bush and W. Bush. Do you think these were just stupid or didn't know that their political donors always had a large interest in cheap labor from Latin America?
taxpolicycenter.org/.../yes-undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes-and-receive-few-tax-benefits
@DryGermanGuy stop calling it immigration. it’s illegal immigration. Learn the difference.
The superordinate term is immigration, no matter the type. And the economical benefit of both is largely the same which obviously has been the tacit understanding in every administration before Trump.
@DryGermanGuy no, doesn’t exactly work like that buddy. There’s a distinction. It doesn’t all go under one umbrella term. One is legal, and DOES benefit the economy. The other is illegal, and detrimental to the economy and its citizens. Just for future reference, don’t bother posting your biased links, because I will not read them.
If you want to stay ignorant and uninformed, go right ahead. You fall right into the group losing out that msc545 described in his question. What do you think of this fact? ↗
And you still haven't answered, why every Republican administration before Trump so obviously disagrees with such a distinction, with regard to impacts on the economy. Hell, even Trump himself backed off of the illegal farm workers and restaurant helpers recently!!!
@DryGermanGuy nah, thanks but no thanks. I prefer reality
Are you still hung up on this?
But sure, I might not be a liberal but enlighten me. What is the harm of illegal immigration for me as a citizen?
that’s like asking, “how does shoplifting harm a business”? Lmao 🤦♂️
In other words, you are either too ignorant of the issue or you are too bad at explaining the issue to give me a proper answer. Sounds to me like you are even less informed than I am in that case and yet here you are thinking you have a superior position. Fairly arrogant some might think.
@Kingofkings1992 yet you still haven’t explained.
@Kingofkings1992
Yes, yes. We are so stupid yet you are the one who can't even answer the most basic of question about your own supposed position. I would personally be fucking embarrassed if I could not express why I held one of my core beliefs.
@Kingofkings1992 No, it really isn't. One does not equate to the other. Numerous people here are asking you to be more explicit about what harms you see in illegal immigration versus legal immigration. Now I am, too. I'm not trying to challenge you. I just honestly want to know what you are thinking when you say "harm" in relation to illegal immigration. If we have that defined, then there is something to have a discussion about. Without that being defined, there can be no discussion, reasonable or otherwise. So, with respect, would you mind being more specific? I would appreciate it.
@Caroline91 I’ll give you the answer you’re looking for on one condition: you post your own opinion on the post, instead of commenting on this nut job’s opinion. Thank you for being respectful and cordial
@Kingofkings1992 I'd be happy to, although it may not satisfy anyone... lol. I think, like many social and political issues, that illegal immigration is a complex issue that there is no easy answer to. People come in search of work or economic opportunity, to join family, or to study. Studies do indicate that most illegal immigrants come for better economic opportunities. Others move to escape conflict, persecution or large-scale human rights violations. Also, the legal path for immigration to the US is actually very limited. So, basically, people come here legally or illegally, often to escape unbearable conditions in their own countries, and almost always for the opportunities available in this wonderful country of ours. From a strictly humanitarian viewpoint, how can we fault anyone for that? But, we are supposed to be, and pride ourselves on being, a nation of laws. And we have immigration laws. I think most people will agree those laws desperately need to be reviewed and adjusted if our broken immigration system is going to become viable again.
@Kingofkings1992 So, either the laws need to be observed or they need to be changed. And THAT is a whole huge, messy and long debate on what the best course of action is. But it is a debate that desperately needs to happen. However, in the meantime, the way things are currently being handled is appalling, especially for a nation that also prides itself on its stance on human rights violations. Law enforcement needs to follow established policies and, especially, constitutional procedures in dealing with deportation. According to our Constitution, ALL people on US soil, citizens or not, are to be afforded due process under the law. Just because there are thousands of cases or it is inconvenient does not justify ignoring this Constitutional right. Again, follow the law or create a constitutional amendment, which is no easy process. That's kind of my thoughts in a nutshell, there's a whole lot more that could be said, but I think this gives the big picture for my thoughts on it. And you are welcome that I am being respectful and cordial. I appreciate the same in you and I am sorry when I see people not having respectful discussions here because this is such a potentially wonderful platform for exactly that. Now, I really am interested in your thoughts on this. I did see you mention that you have covered it in other posts but, unfortunately, I haven't seen those. I look forward to your response!
@Caroline91 not what I meant
@Caroline91 you’re still on his opinion
@Kingofkings1992 Gotcha. Sorry, I will post it as an opinion instead if a reply.🙃
@Kingofkings1992
Ah, engagement farming are you? Actually kind of reeks of desperation if I am honest. And no, I have not found any instance of you actually providing a good argument for what harm illegal immigrants are causing by the virtue of them crossing an imaginary border in the sand or existing within the society.
Lmao, you are quite the clown dude. Nah, not insecure. You are just annoying, that’s all. I am running the show here, not you
Whats the saying? The pot calling the kettle black? I guess I was correct after all, you did find out why people avoided talking to you and it was not because you were "oh so correct, smart and handsome". Its because you are just annoying. Or worse.
Honestly though, the arguments you gave to Caroline91 are so weak. Like seriously, strain on social services? Illegals can't use social services and yet they pay into taxes for them. They are literally subsidizing your ass and you think YOU get the raw side of the deal? Utterly laughable. Or how about undermining those that "follows the process" when following the US migration process often takes +10 years and ICE explicitly went after and deported those who were in the middle of this exact process because it was easy to find their court dates.
It takes a special kind of person to think that they have a good grasp of the situation with such a poor hand of cards as yours.
Talk to text
@Syntosi notice how me and @Caroline91 are able to disagree, yet at the same time understand each others position and remain respectful? That’s how adults communicate with each other. But you wouldn’t know anything about that, being the overgrown child that you are.
You honestly want me to respect your position? NOW of all times? After all that you have said over our multiple conversations and all that you have done? After you have demonstrably proven that you both dont know about the subjects you talk about and that you dont care to learn?
Sir, this is not a classroom where I need to teach you why you are wrong. Believe it or not but you are actually supposed to do some of the work in our relationship as well. If I, as a hypothetical example for the sake of argument since this has definitely not happened in our conversation so far, point out that illegal immigrants pay into social services and that they can't benefit from them then you can't turn around and say that illegal immigrants are a drain on social services.
You are consistently factually wrong and you do not do the bare minimum of responsibility to inform yourself or correct yourself when I point this out.
I have given you plenty of chances to prove yourself but you simply have not. Do not start whining at this point that I dont respect you or your opinion.
Ha! You dont think you are ignorant? Tell me, do you even have a single position that is not based on either your emotions, personal bias or your "gut feeling"?
In fact, just because I think its really funny to point out that you are in fact the one who does not know the difference between an illegal and legal immigrant. Why? Because "illegal immigrant" is a really recent modern invention that objectively did not exist throughout most of human history. You could even make an argument that its only really been a thing in the last 70 or so years.
But sure, illegal immigration which was the norm throughout human history is certainly the root cause of everything that is wrong in your life. After all, you are such an educated and smart person so you would know these things right?
I never once stated that it was the cause of all the problems in my life. Nice attempt to put words in my mouth, but that failed miserable. I take positions based on emotions? Pffft, please. What a laugh riot. Literally everything about the way the left thinks is done out of emotion. Good job portraying me perfectly to be yourself.
Dude, that was literally a joke and not meant to be taken literally. I guess I have to be more careful when using playful exaggerations for comedic value in the future since you appear utterly autistic in this regard and can't tell the difference between playful banter and factual points.
But to prove my point even more, not once have you actually provided justifications for your arguments. Its all just you relying on emotions or supposed common sense. I mean seriously, you literally tried to use the supposed difference between illegal and legal migration against me when you have no idea what either of them are outside of some vague idea in your head that one of them is good and legal while the other is some sort of crime that is harmful to you.
Playful banter is perceived by the tone in which it is spoken with. Not really something that is feasible on the internet, with the exception of it being blatantly obvious. Now you’re calling me a snowflake who can’t take a joke? Lmao! Okay buddy. This conversation as amusing as it is, is going nowhere.
Ah, yes. Because "But sure, illegal immigration which was the norm throughout human history is certainly the root cause of everything that is wrong in your life." was spoken in such a serious tone and was definitely not hyperbolic and exaggerated.
I swear, what is it with the right wing and their inability to understand comedy?
I’m not right wing though, not even close. I’m actually pretty dead center in the middle. I do understand comedy sir. I actually have a fantastic sense of humor. Many users on here can attest to this
Nope. Never heard of that before in my life
No, of course not. Why did I even bother to ask? Its like every time I bring up some basic political, philosophical, economic or other concept it is literally the first time to ever heard about it.
Guess I have to explain another thing to you just so that we can continue this abortive attempt at a conversation. So, lets take two countries in the world. Saudi Arabia and USA. I dont think it would be particularly controversial to say that being left wing, right wing or centrist in these two countries would mean very different things. Technically speaking, these are relative terms. This also means that you can move them to change what would be considered left/right or centrist.
On a very basic level this called the "Overton window" or the current state of what society considers to be left, right or center.
So, if we were to compare the "Overton window" of USA with other countries, where do you think the average political view of an American falls? Do you think that Americans are more left wing than normal? More right wing perhaps?
I am just gonna cut to the chase. If you compare America with the rest of the developed world then USA is shifted towards the right wing extremist side. A democratic politician in USA can often be considered a right wing politician in most other countries.
So, if you are "bonafide" around "pretty dead center in the middle" between what can charitably be considered the right wing Democrats and the far right extremist Republicans.. then what does that make you?
Ok. Thanks for the info and introduction to terminology that I will never use. What does it make me? Again, as I already stated in the previous comment, I’m in the middle. Anything else you’d like to contribute?
You are not in the middle. You are just a right winger with an identity crisis. The things you believe in are right wing ideas, the language you use is tainted by right wing propaganda, and you are very obviously drawing from right wing propaganda as your source of facts such as your arguments for why illegal immigration is harmful.
Good on you though. I hate centrists more than I hate the right wing.
Yes, left wingers say that I’m a right winger, as do right wingers say that I am a left winger. Again, proving my point that I’m in the middle. See ya ✌️
Gotta get the last word in huh? Again, putting your immaturity on full display
That’s exactly what full blown left wingers are, children. You wouldn’t know accountability and hard work if it came up and bit you in the ass
Illegal immigration is so harmful, these folk create jobs, work in construction, hospitality and jobs Yanks wouldn't consider. PLEASE miss me with THAT BS.
They're told not to care. They can't think for themselves.
They understand they are creating a brand new underclass that will be dependent on welfare and they will vote Democrat
What kills me is y'all keep saying democrats only care about illegal immigrants so they can gain future voters, but you would think that if republicans really believed that then they wouldn’t be demonizing them at every opportunity and would be working with democrats to grant amnesty to the ones that have been here and haven’t committed crimes.
@Syntosi The underclass historically voted for democrats. LBJ created a welfare system that rewarded people for having more illegitimate kids. They all became dependent on the welfare system and oit was the democrats that promise more handouts. Withing a decade they were large enough to actually sway an election. How do you think the whole swing state concept was started?
Wait, you think swing-states originates because of government handouts which was started in an effort to buy votes? Wow.. That some tinfoil conspiracy shit going on.
Let me just stop you right there. Swing-states are a natural product of US elections. That is literally how the system functions, why it is stupid, and why your vote does not really matter. But far be it for me to look a gift horse in the mouth I suppose. Do you want to dismantle the idea of swing states? It sounds to me like you think they are a creation of the EBIL DEMORATS or something. There is a fairly easy modification to the voting system that would immediately remove swing states forever, namely to abolish the electoral collage and just go by a popular vote.
Elections would be easier to run, results would not take for-fucking-ever to tabulate, they would be cheaper to run, and your vote would become important again rather than be gerrymandered away.
@Syntosi Look at the swing states. Each of them has a couple of big cities that are controlled by democrats and they vote democrat and it is enough to turn the whole state democrat even though the majority of counties vote Republican. Illinois, Georgia, Michigan all have big democrat cities that are big enough to sway the elections. Not this time apparently which is why the dems need the illegal alien vote. Biden let them in and they were shipped to sanctuary cities in these swing states. If the Republicans did not retake the House in 2022 they would have had enough time to pass the path to citizenship bill and it would have been legal for illegals to vote.
@Syntosi the cities all have a large percentage of welfare recipients, This was done on purpose so they would win elections. The democrats campaign on giving them more free stuff. Look at that pinko Mondami who is going to be the next mayor of New York. He is going to have free bus rides, free food, rent control, and get rid of the NYPD. All the deadbeats will vote for him.
Ha! "Free stuff" eh? Want to talk about how much free stuff rural people get? Farmers are a good place to start but I guess I am a bit too late since the Trump administration cut like 2 billion dollars in assistance to farmers from USAID.
Shame the deadbeat farmers dont vote Democrat though. Almost like your argument is full of shit.
@ProbablyClueless Yes and no. My argument was that education was a better group for Democratic voters and that poor people in rural areas votes Republican.
George!!! George Soros!!! If you see this "The rabbit is blue! Repeat the rabbit is blue"
By choice. Their purpose is not to improve their country it's to oppose their common detractor. In the US it's Trump. In the UK it's Farage. In South Africa it's anyone not racially black - anywhere.
It’s because a majority of the illegal cases are just poor people, not inherent criminals like drug lords and gang bangers.
How do MAGA-heads not understand all the important work that is mostly done by undocumented workers?
they are high on liberal "cool aide".
We do. We just rightly see greater unaddressed harms & more important priorities for limited resources. That's all.
@Kingofkings1992 Your guess is good as mine?
I think you should not exaggerate dude. Your country is not the only one dealing with illegal immigrants. Several other countries struggle to support them too, and they do not complain about their situation as much as you do.
Dont forget that the Democrats fought a war to keep slaves, so illegal "slave labor" is the closest thing they can get now
Isn’t Trump the one that said he was going to give deportation exemptions to long term farm workers and hospitality workers if their employers vouch for them but they won’t get citizenship? Sounds like slavery to me.
@SmokinAces2000 it would be via a work visa program, so they would not be illegals and can not be paid "slave labor wages" so nope
The workers with the permit will be forced to only work for their current employer and they can’t negotiate for better wages. Not to mention that the employer has control over their legal status which is indentured servitude and reminiscent of slavery.
@SmokinAces2000 everything you said is in fact just a lie. Stop listening to fake news
What was a lie?
@SmokinAces2000 everything you said was in fact a lie.
What harm does illegal immigration in itself cause?
if you can’t understand how the presence of an undocumented person in your country harms you, You really need to widen your scope of knowledge and understanding kiddo.
I said in itself. If someone has been here for decades and hasn’t caused problems then they are not a threat and if we take the steps to legalize them then they really won’t be a threat but no y'all would rather break up families because someone entered illegally 20 years ago.
We're all illegal immigrants
My great grandparents came here from Russia (mom), and italy (dad)
Am I an "illegal". I'm white
Because they are just supposed to rail against any and everything from the Trump administration. There's is not to reason why...
They dont care.
Proof or it doesn't happen.
America is made out of immigration
They are ignorant people.
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