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Should we leave them to mutual self defense and bring our 75 thousand troops and equipment home? They are all grow'd up, now. They should be able to take care of themselves and not need us to wipe their noses and their asses..
The United States was a founding member of NATO, signing the North Atlantic Treaty on April 4, 1949, and officially joining as one of the 12 nations to establish the alliance for collective security against Soviet aggression. The U. S. Senate ratified the treaty later that year, and the U. S. has remained a core member ever since, playing a central role ever since.
Trump had wanted to pull out of NATO and had threatened to do so if the other countries of NATO weren't going to pay their fair share which made the U. S. foot the bill and the other countries didn't pay anything at all except for a few.
When Trump finally got the other countries to pay above the initial 2% to 5%, Trump was happy once again.
I believe that the troops probably play a larger role in other countries that are necessary but no one ever talks about in the media.
If Trump believed they weren't serving any purpose by being in these other countries I am positive that they wouldn't be there.
We are in very trigger happy times and we never know which country is going to want to start another war with other countries at any given time. We need to be on the ready.
Just in 2015 India and Pakistan were about to go to war, and Trump interviewed and stopped it.
How do we know when this is going to happen again and which countries are going to start another war? We don't know, but the U. S. will be ready. Without any troops at all in other countries and they start a war because the U. S. is not protecting them, what senerio do you believe will happen?
While the cat is away the mice will play!
As George Carlin would say "Pull out? Doesn't seem manly to me"!!!
There are pros and cons, NATO gives the US a lot of power in Europe, but it also comes with risks. Poland is practically begging for a war with Russia and as NATO expands the likelihood of getting dragged into a conflict gets higher.
While deftly avoiding the OPs important question, there is a fundamental lie floating that the USA has been paying for European protection and getting nothing in return.
NATO establishment was led by the USA and among other things was intended to:
- stop the Russian steamroller by buttressing European defences as part of the Cold War that was already underway
- extending the US nuclear umbrella as a quid pro quo for limiting nuclear proliferation to UK and France
- controlling German redevelopment to ensure more nasty Nazis didn't arise
- providing military stability to support the Marshall Plan for rebuilding of European economies again as a way of rebuilding a production capacity that would help to deter the communists
That is, NATO was established to achieve US strategic objectives at the time.
Yes, the US has dropped a mozza on NATO. And the Europeans have received profound benefits they haven't paid much for. But the US did a lot of ridiculously expensive stuff to keep the communists at bay over the Cold War and the Treaty was a drop in the ocean. Much of the money the US spent on NATO it would have spent without NATO.
Now the Cold War ended 1/3 of a century ago and I think it is fair to ask whether it is still serving US interests. That is a good question to ask. US strategic objectives have changed. Russia is a ghost of an empire and China is the only rival that matters.
But the decision for the US to leave NATO should not be driven by the myth that the Europeans have been swindling the US this whole time.
And to actually answer the OPs question: Yes.
Why make an open ended promise of defence for allies you don't really need militarily any more. And if push comes to shove and there is threat of conflict in both Europe and the Pacific at the same time, Europe ain't going to get diddly from the US. Why die for Danzig?
Learning to play nice diplomatically and stopping doing stupid things would probably give the US the support they may want from time to time in the international conversation.
But I'm just one Pacific-dwelling Australian with its own treaties with the USA that we need to keep more than the Europeans do.
Er... Not sure how to break it to You, but the European NATO is mostly the EU, and I would call them many things, but not "grown-ups". Unfortunately, Poland, with our treacherous politicians, has been dragged down by the EU for the recent 22 years. Could You please wait until Poland gets back on its feet? Or maybe we could sign some other deal with You instead? As far as I know, President Donald Trump commended Poland for being one of the few NATO countries actually spending the required share of its GDP on its military (though, as I as a Pole can tell You, this somehow still translated to little actual military power increase). I don't think we deserve to die together with the rest of the EU.
Other than that, I do support the USA withdrawing from NATO. I will have lots of fun watching the EU brainlets scramble. They felt strong when they provoked Russia, believing the USA would come to their aid, while also insulting President Donald Trump. Let's watch them panic as they realize the grown-ups have made a deal above their heads...
Opinion
22Opinion
No, it shouldn't. And it's really stupid for any American to say something like that.
It's clear that you're uninformed about the global and regional geopolitical situation everywhere.
The only nation that wants this is Russia.
You can't compare a country like Romania, Poland with the USA and claim to be able to defend itself against Russia or South Korea and Japan against China.
The USA, through its membership in NATO and the strengthening of its military presence in various parts of the world, is not wiping the noses of some small children.
The USA defends through its force a principle that both Americans and the rest of the world believe in, the desire for self-government of peoples.
Without the USA, which is/was the protector of democracies in the world, small democracies will immediately perish under the barbaric hordes of Russian, Chinese and terrorist totalitarianism.
The role of a GLOBAL SUPER POWER is exactly this, to exert its influence in the world and make all the countries of the world obey the principles it wants.
And everyone wants democracy and freedom.
Things that only exist under the umbrella of NATO/EU/USA!
😂😂😂😂😂😂
You really think the US spreads “freedom”?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The US spreads capitalism and installs the central banks.
OP isn’t the only one that is ignorant.
@Chazmatazz269 Capitalism is the best.
And the World Bank is an institution like any other.
Your message exposes you as a Russian troll.
Where the US went and was left to do its job, there are prosperous and democratic countries.
Even in Afghanistan, people fled by the thousands after American planes to take them to the US.
If the US leaves NATO then they have to withdraw their troops and end their bases in the many countries they have them in. This can be seen in a few different lenses. One being them abandoning their strategic positions against countries and nations they are against and leaving a few allies they support so well for many years from attacks that the US is forced into get into. The US needs bases in a lot of countries to exploit their dominance. Leaving NATO will result in them leaving the one thing that makes them quick to respond. Unless they have defence alliances with countries like Saudi and Qatar which aren't in NATO it makes no sense if there is no give and take. NATO in a way gives the US leverage against Russia, China and North Korea. Leaving has its pros and cons
The US needs NATO more than the other way around. If they stop backing US currency, our economy completely crumbles. Our domestic economy is a long way from self sustaining. Drumpf is playing a dangerous game of chicken here.
Stay in NATO. Keep kissing ass until our economy is self sustaining; if that’s even possible now. Too many young people want everything in exchange for nothing. They’re not trying to start new businesses or partner with existing ones to expand their markets. And those are the ones who aren’t completely anti-capitalism. This leaves our entire economy precariously in the hands of the uber rich who are simultaneously draining our economy of its value. Lazy or not, certainly the fat cats’ rugrats are all too happy to inherit billion dollar empires without ever having to lift a finger to build them. Gen Z’s wet dream; all the wealth with none of the work or responsibility.
I don't necessarily agree with your entire narrative. But I like it anyway.
It’s not a narrative. It’s a fact. We’ve been warned about this danger by economists ever since the US dumped the gold standard. I’m quite certain that everything Drumpf has been doing to strengthen our economy has more to do with economic independence than anything else, but it seems as though he’s rushing the rebellion more than a little.
Sorry. but that's nonsense. But you have a good day.
Sure, let's clear the way for Putin to launch a new campaign to conquer more land for a rebirth of the Soviet Union. Because Europe at war would be great for the US economy and strategic defense initiatives. Let me guess, you voted for Cheeto Jesus, aka Putin's Puppet.
But to answer your literal question. Pssst... the US has already effectively withdrawn from NATO. We have told Europe who we really are. They are walking away from our defense contractors and cancelling arms purchases. They are focusing their economic ties elsewhere. And they won't be sending troops to help invade Venezuela and steal their natural resources in a Putin/tRump world where national sovereignty has been thrown out the window in favor of just just taking what you want from whoever you can bully.
They are shit allies. They don’t spend on defense, their people won’t fight, they don’t link arms with the US, they fight us politically whenever they can, their people hate us, they are spiteful little bitches.
As they re-arm and come to terms with the world they will become a better Allie in the future. For now, they can wake up to the fact that this world is ruled by Russia, China and the strongest of them all, the US. Tough times ahead for Europe. The US should leave and save the money and rely more on our nukes.
Yes. Once the Soviet Union dissolved there was no longer any need for NATO to protect Europe from Soviet expansion.
Since then, NATO has only been used for aggression and western expansion. It had to manufacture fake threats in order to justify its continued existence and money flow into arms.
The U. S. doesn't need NATO protection, so it is a waste of money. The only ones who love it are arms manufacturers/suppliers and bat shit crazy imperialists.
Then no one buying our last domestic high end manufacturing? Then Hollywood movies is our only import.
The reason why we have such a debt in tandem with being the global police and military security was to protect both profits. To fuck up either is leaving us with trillions of dedt to pay. You can be evil and you can be stupid you can't afford to be both.
Seeing as the majority of Europe is socialist, they no longer share American values. Any nation that directly is against U. S. safety is no ally. You cannot beg for help while simultaneously telling America to get fucked.
We are seeing allegiances take shape with the Greenland and Canada deals.
u Sure, sabotage the most successful defense alliance in the world’s history, why not? 🙄 Just don’t expect any help after your next 9/11 event. Man… China and Russia must laugh all the way to the political bank. 🤦♂️
If the USA wants to go ahead. Isolationism will eventually only hurt the USA. Recall that Article 5 has only been used once... on September 11 2001. Every NATO country came to the USA's assistance.
Literally NO country came to the US’s aid. There was outrage nationwide about the fact that the US intervened every time an ally requested military aid or financial assistance. When we were targeted, crickets. It was the first time in my lifetime that anyone had seriously suggested dumping NATO, and one of the “conspiracy theories” floating around at the time suggested that Bush wiped out all the good the Clinton administration did for our economy so that we COULDN’T abandon NATO after that attack. It’s not that far fetched at all considering all of the defense contracts that went to Cheney and his cronies immediately thereafter.
@Chazmatazz269 Really? What about all those nations that lost soldiers in Afghanistan (ISAF) ? What about all those US aircraft that sought sanctuary in Canada? But if the USA wants to leave feel free. to leave. The reality is the USA is no better than China or Russia. Trump has succeeded in opening up the eyes of the middle powers that the USA is not special... it only cares about itself. NATO perhaps should act as a force to keep ALL major powers in check.
Yes fuck off from my country. The USA is now more of a risk than Russia or China.
Only if you are from Denmark.
Doesn't work that way. Pretty much every European country is now asking is America the new enemy, are we next on the invasion list.
Trump is not USA, you need the approval of the congress to declarer war and a simple intervention to take Greenland will be imposible even for USA against Europeans army.
Only a full scale invasion can take Greenland from Denmark.
This situation is Russia plan and Trump is Russia pupet and ex-KGB agent "Krasnov".
Russia will jump over all East Europe is USA will do something like that.
Russia is the same lefel of danger like USA right now.
If war come from west, then from east as well will come and Europe 100% will need to fight 2 side war against USA and Russia.
Trump can do what he wants. there's no restaints on him and he fully believes power gives you a god given right to do anything. International law doesn't apply to him or America anymore. The rhetoric coming out of America is far worse than it's ever been from Russia.
Trump can do what he wants.
*Pretty much true. Like Biden's puppeteers did.
There's no restraints on him.
*Pretty much true. Congress has preoccupied with themselves.
He fully believes power gives you a god given right to do anything.
* Pretty much true. He believes he has been called by God and is doing God's work.
International law doesn't apply to him or America anymore.
* Pretty much true. No, it doesn't. And it never did. Compliance with international law is unconstitutional.
The rhetoric coming out of America is far worse than it's ever been from Russia.
* That is untrue. You are simply not old enough to know the kind of rhetoric that came out of Russia. It was bad enough so that we had air raid drills when I was young. I had to sit on the floor underneath my school desk.
4 out of 5 ain't bad.
Except for Greenland, do any of you have anything worth invading? You have already invited invaders to come in. Aloha Snack Bar.
It's clear that both of you have no idea about the US, not that I know more.
Other political situations are more familiar to me.
But the US is not a dictatorship in which the president does whatever he wants.
As I said, Congress can withdraw his support and there are institutions and laws and systems that can remove Trump from office.
And a war cannot occur without the approval of the US Congress.
The president asks that Congress declare war, and it decides whether or not, and the president becomes the supreme commander of the army.
@Alexandrubaschet08 President Trump is already the supreme commander of the army. That's what commander in chief means.
Is it clear? How clear is it?
What Trump has is shock and awe. He moved so quickly. That the news can't keep up with him, and Congress can't either. That is a part of his strategy. Flood everyone with activity.
He didn't seek Congress permission to invade Venezuela and has filled every office with yes men removing anyone who opposes. There are no restraints.
Yes, the President of the United States can be removed from office if they abuse their power or violate U. S. laws, through a constitutional process called impeachment.
How impeachment works:
The procedure is established by the U. S. Constitution and has two main stages:
The House of Representatives
Can adopt articles of impeachment by a simple majority.
Charges may include “treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors”, a category that includes abuse of power.
The Senate
Conducts the actual trial.
A two-thirds majority of senators is required for conviction.
If convicted, the president is automatically removed from office and may be barred from holding future federal office.
What does “abuse of power” mean?
It does not have to be a classic criminal offense. It can include:
using the office for personal gain;
obstruction of justice;
violating the Constitution;
misuse of presidential authority.
Historical examples:
Richard Nixon resigned in 1974 before the final Senate vote (Watergate scandal).
Bill Clinton and Donald Trump were impeached by the House but not convicted by the Senate.
Donald Trump was impeached twice.
Important:
Removal is a political process, not a criminal one.
After removal, a former president can still face criminal prosecution in regular courts.
@purplepoppy I have to respectfully disagree. I am Polish and I do not consider the USA an enemy, I simply realize the USA is an empire and must do what empires do in order to remain an empire. As long as the interests of Poland and the USA align (and regarding the collapse of the EU, this is certainly the case), I am willing to work with the USA (or rather make deals with the USA) and I do not fear an invasion. Though honestly, even if Russia invaded Poland, I would probably consider it to be liberation from the EU at this point, as long as the Russian military behaves and does not hurt my family, so I might be a bit desensitized to the concept of invasion. 🤣
no, nato strengthens the us considerably. we created it, and partially for our own benefit. we'd decrease in power globally and weaken the west in general if we stepped out.
probably should not. I just don't trust that they can hold it together. as well, it gives us a presence.
definitely don't take them out of korea.
@Sal_Monella Yes,
even all European countries should withdraw from NATO, as US had just showed that it doesn’t respect Europe and can easily take over it when it pleases.
Europe should start focusing on building its own defense.
I entirely agree. But then parts of Europe will form alliances. And then they all start warring between themselves, like before World War I. And then the Muslim caliphate will form a new Ottoman Empire. And barbecue all of you.
@Sal_Monella
I strongly disagree because Europe is no all done with wars, have enjoyed their war games from medieval ages.
And Arab will never for a group and never did, that info is mostly a false claim used by US to create hate.
What Muslims will do is that they will join with other strong economy country for better business and for security , same as done by some countries who were part of Soviet Union, or like Pakistan, Afghanistan as they joined China.
That will come with costs, if many European countries increase defense spending that will mean cuts in social programs
@emeraldsaphire so true.
They have no interest in our defense, so we should have no interest in theirs. They seem to want to be conquered. Sometimes you can't tell people, you have to show them...
No, there is still value in having a coalition of countries to defend against Communism
The EU, accounting for most of the European NATO members, basically IS communism. Your argument is misguided. I do agree with the general sentiment, though. The new Peace Council by President Donald Trump looks promising.
No of course not.
If you fail to learn from history then you are doomed to repeat it.
No. NATO still has a useful purpose in maintaining world peace.
yes they should
Europe is getting r*ped by refugees anyway. US, Russia and China don't have to do jack shit to cause their downfall
No you f sucking idiot. Get your tongue out of Trump's ass.
You should have had a poll.
Putin would like nothing better.
NATO should quit America !!!
Hell yes! 👏
I'd love to see you all so upset. Are you ready to run to your safe spaces yet?
Nope
Because?
NATO is an important group worldwide and often is seen a the leader in emergencies.
It seems reasonable.
I'm sure you're just being silly.
You have no idea about my picture.
Like I said, you're silly.
Tell Putin to Putout.
Repetitio mater studiorum
Repetitio mater studiorum.
Sorry if it hurt your lose brain to learn new things
I taught you to go and get some information because you lost your mind when you said it seemed like a reasonable decision, you Russian.
Not now, you alwase had been.
I have my ways
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