What is happening in Afghanistan now was always going to happen. The military was never going to be ready.

RolandCuthbert

What is happening in Afghanistan was always going to happen. From the moment we invaded the country to destroy Al-Qaeda, this was going to be result of also attacking the Taliban. The funny thing about our politics is that people actually pretend there are differences between so-called Conservatives and Liberals. Or like there are differences between Republicans and Democrats when it comes to this foreign policy agenda.

Nope.

All of that is simply a lie.

This was born out of neo-Conservatism. By the way, I am a fan of neo-conservatism. I actually believe in many principles. But with the emergence of George Bush 44, we saw the ideology of nation-building come to the forefront. As George Bush said, "Freedom is God's gift to the world". I agree with that. But there is no way you can make this happen militarily. We can't deploy the military indefinitely and any society where rule is enforced via the military, is by definition a society that is not free.

So we thought we could build Afghanistan into a democracy that would never attack us again. But it was always going to fail because;

1. You can't free any society without significant majorities of the oppressed groupings willing to fight to the death for their freedoms.

2. It was too easy to for the Taliban to win over folks with anti-American rhetoric. It isn't like America is some bastion of freedom for Muslims. We have plenty of anti-Muslim nonsense in our society that can fuel anti-American resentment overseas.

3. The Taliban are basically a group that believes in a religious theocracy. They never had to "train" their followers. From Day one, their fighters were fanatics, driven into a frenzy over their insane batshit crazy ideology. We were "training" the Afghanistan military, whom had no uniting ideology or principles.

It is sad to see what is happening, but this should have ended over a decade ago. Administration after administration kept thinking it would get to a point where people in Afghanistan would adopt democratic principles and build a Jeffersonian style democracy. It may happen one day. But when it does, it won't be because of a single shot by American soldier. People have to realize, we are going to start seeing an insane amount of bloodshed in the coming weeks. Pray for these folks.

https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/afghanistan-taliban-us-troops-intl-08-15-21/h_044b6b7b6170aec28ce19b1bc40226a2

What is happening in Afghanistan now was always going to happen. The military was never going to be ready.
What is happening in Afghanistan now was always going to happen. The military was never going to be ready.
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  • xHoneyxBeex
    I agree with you. It's unfortunate that seemingly so many lives were lost and so much money was wasted over the past 20 years for nothing. I also feel so much sadness for the innocent Afghan people (especially the girls and women) who will now return to living in the dark ages. I couldn't imagine being a young woman and having to go from working or getting an education to being fearful of even leaving my house without a male escort. However, I don't see any solution had we stayed longer. We were never going to leave behind a peaceful, democratic Afghanistan. If a majority of the oppressed people do not stand up for their freedom and fight for democracy, it's simply not going to happen. We can't force our ideals onto a completely different culture and society who are not yet ready to embrace them. It seems very similar to Vietnam and what is happening in Kabul appears like a modern day Saigon.
    Like 2 People
    Is this still revelant?
    • What certainly would have helped is to not remove all essential combat support that suddenly. The Afghan army was trained with NATO intelligence, NATO combat repairs, NATO logistics, NATO close air support and that enabled reasonably effective operations by the Afghan army. For the record, an independent mation organizing this would be very expensive and Afghanistan is very poor, so it is understandable.

      Well, all of that disappeared very suddenly and in a very short time. That makes it much more difficult for the Afghan army to fight, makes a diplomatic solution more unlikely and strengthens the Taliban.

      In a sense, a more gradual, drawn-out decrease of this support may have been a more better approach.

    • @tartaarsaus I agree that it could have been more gradual and certainly better planned out. My response was referencing the withdrawal in general, it had to happen at some point.

    • That said, apparently US military intelligence thought the Taliban would attack in some spots to get an advantage in the peace negotiations. Clearly, they did not notice the Taliban planning, organizing and setting up a nation-wide offensive. So the decision-making here was also based on clearly incorrect information about what the Taliban would do.

    • Show All

Most Helpful Guy

  • JackSmy
    @RolandCuthbert While you make excellent points, I think the fundamental basis of going into Afghanistan was political and financial, and the Regime, in the White House at the time saw a way to get their cronnies SUPER RICH, selling arms and ammunition on a "war" that never needed to be!
    The Israeli Mossad could have gone in and taken Bin Laden, with virtually no cost, no accountability, and all of those TRILLIONS could have been saved. Not to mention the HUMAN cost, on both sides!
    Like 4 People
    Is this still revelant?
    • While I might admit that the case for Iraq was far less compelling, at the time I could see no other choice but to invade Afghanistan. Staying there was the mistake.

      I am basically a neo-con at heart. I do believe somewhat in the concept of the end of history. But if it is true, it will not be brought about by the use of our military.

      We should have invaded, deposed the Taliban, found Bin Laden and left.

      The Afghans would have to then figure out how to rebuild their nation. All we could do is help them, if there was a serious movement in the country in terms of human rights, women's rights, etc.

      But if they wanted to become a religious theocracy again, that would be their choice.

      But outsourcing the fight? There was no public will for that. We had lost thousands of people in the most destructive terrorist attack in our history. No one was trying to hear. . ."let Israel take care of it".

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What Girls & Guys Said

418
  • RealMarek
    I agree with most of what you write. The Taliban would have their way one way or another in the end. However, not everything had to play out like it did. The Taliban agreed to certain conditions provided the US leave by May 1st. Their code of honor bound them to respect what they had agreed to. When the US, for petty reasons of internal politics, decided to delay the withdrawal (originally rescheduling it for 9/11, which seems incredibly tone deaf), all Pashtun Afghans were bound by Pashtunwalla, their code of honor, to punish the US for going back on its word. The Taliban immediately started taking territory with little opposition. Also, it is unconscionable that Western personnel and local allies were not gradually evacuated during the past several months, that our military equipment wasn’t removed, and that Bagram airbase was abandoned before evacuations were complete. This is just rank incompetence of the highest order and it did not have to be this way. Now we have 10,000-15,000 Americans trapped behind Taliban lines, at the mercy of the Taliban, while our idiotic officials are making “strong statements” to the Taliban about how they need to respect the rights of girls and women. It will be a miracle if we don’t end up with something 3,000 times worse than the Iran hostage crisis. It didn’t have to be this bad.
    Like 2 People
    • Where to people get this idea that the Taliban have some code of honor that the West can understand? They don't even have a code of honor most Muslims can understand. . . that's why you see the insanity unfolding at airports. If it were possible to for them to actually keep their word, it would be a workable situation.

      It is not.

      1. Women left behind will not have any rights. Not even the right to their own personhood, no matter what the Taliban claim.

      2. Reprisals will be horrific. No matter what promises they make, they are going to punish anyone suspected of working with Americans.

      3. No matter what they tell you, they will prevent people from leaving the country and they will force essential workers back to work. It will be just like slavery.

      They will do this because when you rule with no democracy, you have to rule with an iron fist. You must use authoritarian methods to maintain order and stability. And even the Taliban need stability, even if it is one that maintains Afghanistan in a state similar to the middle ages.

      As for the agreement, it was made by the previous administration. I am not sure why you consider it unreasonable for the United States to do what it must to ensure the safe withdrawal of troops and embassy personnel.

      I feel badly for the Afghans left behind too. But we have no political will to even understand their plight. We are a backwards political system now. We can't help anyone until we figure out how to keep from destroying ourselves.

    • RealMarek

      I agree with most of what you write. Of course we need to withdraw our personnel and allies safely, which is precisely what we have failed to do. The Taliban will do all that you mention they will do; I am not a fan of them. They were, however, bound by a code that we do not understand, and when the US went back on its word and delayed the withdrawal date (completely unnecessary despite the change of administration) the Taliban were released from honoring their end of the bargain.

    • What is our "personnel"? If you are talking about interpreters, facilitators, guides, etc. who are Afghan, those are not "our" personnel. They may have worked with our military, but they are not our people.

      As for the Taliban and its word, again. . . if their word is so golden, why are the making promises you and I know they will never keep?

      As for this agreement you are talking about, there is no need to keep the trump's word on the withdrawal. We tell the Taliban a date we think we can meet and we leave when we wish.

      It isn't like they can kick us out.

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  • animesenpai
    I think we could have done good things in Afghanistan even if the odds were stacked against us.

    Our loss in Afghanistan was solidified the moment we took our eye off the ball and invaded Iraq for no reason.
    Like 1 Person
    • I just don’t see how it would have made a difference. We had an illusion of a stable government because of our military. In truth, many of the folks we were working with were corrupt. They were sucking money from us, stabbing each other in the back, etc.

      Because they never had to fight for what was given to them.

  • BCA6010
    The debacle right now isn't that Joe pulled us out- that would've happened regardless if he or the Don were president; it's that he has done it in the absolute worst way possible, and it really looks like the heads of the DoD and DoS are incredibly incompetent at their jobs too. Withdrawing all the contractors who were maintaining the helicopters that the ANA's troops and supply lines relied on absolutely doomed them too. That alone guaranteed that the ANA would collapse, but even so, I think it would be unrealistic to think they would've been able to hold the country together, anyway. Optimistically, the Taliban still would've seized most of the southeastern half of the country; roughly analogous to their holdings in 2001, while the US-backed Afghans would basically become the new Northern Alliance.

    As for "what went wrong?" It's the usual suspects: the disconnected psychopaths in suits that occasionally voice their opinions and try to get you to vote for them. The first mistake though, was betraying USSOCOM's Unconventional Warfare mission (by far the most successful of its type ever conducted) by breaking the deals they had been making with the Afghans, invading and occupying with conventional troops instead, solely for political image purposes ("the people want to see US soldiers avenging 9/11!"). Additional, arguably worse blunders ensue from there, but that was the start of it.

    By the way, this is nothing new for Joe; he held an identical opinion about evacuating US citizens and allied nationals when Saigon fell. The "great" thing about having that demented vegetable still involved in politics is that there's a precedent for basically everything so you know what he's going to screw up (just about everything, according to Obama).
    • I mean, we could blame the DoD and DoS, but we have had four presidential administrations. We have Congress, etc. It is kind of hard to expect the DoD/DoS to do anything other than what they have done. They want to stay deployed and engaged. We are the ones who make the decisions about these wars. And we elect folks who are supposed to keep their promises.

      It was unrealistic at the beginning. We drove the Taliban out. Not the Afghans themselves. It wasn't like they put together a movement and decided to stand up for themselves.

      I didn't have a problem with the original invasion. We destroyed a terrorist haven, even if it was temporarily. It drove out a freakishly insane terrorist. But staying there under the guise that we could convert the Afghans to a liberal democracy was insane.

      I am sure there a thousand other motives. But this is how it was sold to the public. And the public has to stand up and call out nonsense. We are wringing our hands over the failure in Afghanistan, when it truth the actual mission failed over a decade ago.

  • jshm2
    You're confused, of course. Like any so called "neo-con" usually is. There is no direct evidence of Al-Qaeda being in Afghanistan. It was all heresay and claims by "Intelligence" that they were.

    But these were the same dipshits who claimed Saddam had WMDs, Gaddafi was planning "something," and Osama was "in a cave". With such idiots in the lead it's no wonder the USA ended up in the same position as the Soviet Union - chased out of Afghanistan, with tail between it's legs.

    The American empire laughingly likes to throw around the words "foreign policy" and "nation building" but it's all a show that you think hasn't been seen before. The American project has failed and it's time to break up the USA like we did the Soviet Union. The world has no need for such old relic "superpowers" we need collaborative states, not overbearing ones.

    American "freedom" has always been at the cost of others, this is why every nation it "helps" turns to shit. You cannot give what you yourself do not have. The former Taliban (they are now the Emirate of Afghanistan) were successful simply because they employed the same anti-empire tactics used against other invaders. Americans always try and deflect onto "Muslims" and "anti-Western resentment". But you just do not understand that your way of existence is not how real and rational people choose to live. Outside the USA, you are good in small doses only.

    The Emirate of Afghanistan are not a group or theocracy. They are a council made up of many different tribal elders around one central "Emir". The model is old fashioned and ignorance of it by American stupidity is why America and the allies were never able to engage properly.

    The funny thing is that the pushtoon model is older and more successful than any democracy. Hence why democracy doesn't work in such places. The main problem with democracy is that it's very expensive, bloody and undemocratic to initially setup.

    But the fitting end is that the Northern Alliance puppet government robbed the US taxpayer to the tune of 1 trillion dollars. A lot of that they're never going to get back.
    • Yeah, you didn't read the take. But that figures. You are just on a soap box preaching about the evils of America.

      We do stupid shit. My Take showed that. You added nothing to this conversation.

  • BeenThereLovedIt
    This is what Eisenhower tried to warn us about. The war had nothing to do with anything except the MIC making money off another "Vietnam" style conflict that had no clear goals or objective. Look at the companies/people who make money from war, and look at how much political clout they wield.
    Like 3 People
  • 888theGreat
    Wrong like always. The idea was slow removal of troops and the 'HIGHLY" Trained Afgans troops would take over. They were never trained apparently. You need air power and none were trained for that either. What was all that money being used for? We were lied to from Bush Jr to Biden.

    If they would have properly trained them and provided air power trained pilots , US could have left years ago and could have held off the rag heads ,
    Like 1 Person
    • They were trained. And let me understand this. ..

      how in the world do you train someone to want to fight? The Taliban want to fight. They are fanatics. Afghans must be fanatics to. About their freedoms, the rights, their women and their children. They have to put aside their differences put together a fighting force that will meet the Taliban's energy.

      There is no amount of training that can make folks want to unite and fight for their lives.

    • Afgan fighters fought for money and when the money dried up , they either joined the Taliban or just took uniform off and hid.

    • So maybe go back and argue with that guy who said they were not trained well.

  • zagor
    I feel sorry for the people there who actually want to make a go of it, who actually want a functioning modern country. Unfortunately they weren't the ones running things.
    Like 1 Person
    • No they weren’t. And I don’t mean to say there aren’t Afghans who really want to give this a try. But we didn’t let this happen organically. We tried to force it.

      The folks running things simply were greedy and wanted to line their pockets.

  • bulletbob555
    I feel they were ok going along getting paid. When it got real they waffles. So many there are young and didn't grow up with Taliban. Hopefully they will be the fighters to overthrow the Taliban. Once they see what they've lost and don't have freedom and a modern society
    LikeDisagree 2 People
  • rcljr
    That clusterfuck isn’t on the military, that whole fucking mess is on biden, nobody else, HE is the retard moron that pulled the military out and left 1,600 civilians behind, the blood is on Biden’s hands alone, nobody else, he’s an incompetent piece of shit.
    • I guess you didn't read my take.

      Dude, it is time to get the fuck out of dodge. Get over it. Bush, Biden, Obama, Trump. . . we were there far too long. And its like spending 2 tril didn't bother you at all.

      That's fucked up.

  • BlackCatBone
    Or maybe because most afghans are pro-sharia 🤷🏻‍♀️What is happening in Afghanistan now was always going to happen. The military was never going to be ready.
    Like 1 Person
    • Maybe or maybe not. Who knows? But one thing is for certain, there will be a lot of killing over the next few months. I am sure those who are about to be killed are pro-life.

      What is happening in Afghanistan now was always going to happen. The military was never going to be ready.

    • I bet it will be the other way around.
      If anything, extremist religious people are pro-life lol.

    • Yeah, I am not really certain of your point.

      You do konw that the Taliban will murder anyone who worked with the Americans or who stands against their rule. . .

      right?

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  • msc545
    You need to use Occam's razor on your writings and beliefs. Afghanistan never attacked the US. The US attacked the US in order to prop up Bush politically and to prop up the defense industry economically. It is no more complex than that.
    LikeDisagree 3 People
    • msc545

      I meant to say the US attacked Afghanistan. I hate that I can't edit

  • Daniela1982
    The Afghan army was lame ass and just doing it for a living pay check. When the time came for them to fight for their freedom they ran like scared rabbits and fought to get the hell out of Dodge. It was sad that we left so suddenly and leaving them to die at the hands of the Taliban. It's nice to help others but we gave them 20 years to get their shit together and they folded when the time came for them to stand on their own. The same thing happened in Viet Nam and they all wound up coming to the US. Now all the Afghans will be coming here too to compete with the illegals and at taxpayer expense. The hits just keep coming. Funny how the taxpayers have to dish out but have no say on how their money is to be spent, such as with the Afghanistan boondoggle.
    Like 2 People
  • Ad_Quid_Orator
    My attitude always was lets get Bin Laden and get out of there.
    LikeDisagree 3 People
    • exactly. as soon as we got him we should have left. not stay for another decade

  • LaFerrari
    The US government Armed and trained the Taliban in the 80s, they are terrorists under government pay.


    We arm them for reasons that we will never truly know, but the taliban was unfortunately created by the CIA (it’s declassified, well some of it)


    I think either a government defense contractor or intelligence agency was behind the arming of Taliban in Kabul…. Us military has drones that could easily destroy all vehicles left behind, and gun depots, but why aren’t they?


    🤔
    • msc545

      Why bother? It's not like they're going to use them against us since we aren't going to be there

    • LaFerrari

      What do you mean? We are going to use them against Saudis eventually. CIA planned this ages ago…

      Classified information is being released about 9/11, eventually that will lead to another war.

    • msc545

      You must have inside information the rest of the world doesn't have as yet.

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  • WowwGirl
    We held it back for 20 years
    Like 2 People
    • People aren't getting that. Everyone want to litigate the current withdrawal. We sat through 20 years of failed policy. We can't take 20 years to learn this lesson again.

      We did this in Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Nicaragua, etc. Regime change doesn't work unless the people in a given society want to change the regime.

      In that case, it is a no brainer.

    • WowwGirl

      I get it friend 🤗

  • Pterodon
    I agree with you. Haven’t seen you in awhile
    Like 1 Person
    • I have been here. You didn’t see my take on my vacation in Montenegro?

    • Pterodon

      No I’m sorry I missed it. by the way I’m the former reptocarl. We’ve had some heated discussions but I’ve always respected you

    • Well Reptocarl, take a look. Me and my fiancee had a great, great time.

      Back from Montenegro!!! ↗

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  • BokieLoc
    Lol you believe in fake news stories.
    Like 1 Person
    • Well, keep reading youtube. I am sure the Lizard aliens will be posting the truth soon.

    • BokieLoc

      Yea and when the government takes the alien invasion your stupid statist ass will believe that fake aliens are real because you will see it on the TV and you don't care about the truth st all only what your idiot box tells you.

    • BokieLoc

      when the government fakes*

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  • DrHobama
    Oh my god an actual good political take
    LikeDisagree 2 People
  • Diya010
    I agree 100%
    Like 1 Person
  • KrakenAttackin
    Very well said Roland.
    Disagree 2 People
  • Anonymous
    What happened to the eyes of the man in the white fez?
  • Anonymous
    are you really stupid enough to believe that Trump or ANY OTHER past president would leave BILLIONS of dollars of military equipment and weapons for the Taliban to use? Dumbest shit I've read in my entire life. There's a difference in a slow, controlled withdraw after certain conditions have been met, and just pulling out overnight, leaving weapons for the enemy, and leaving 15,000 American citizens behind.
    Like 1 Person
    • What the fuck? Trump negotiated this deal. Do you actually believe we would spend billions to ship all that hardware back? It was supposed to be for the Afghans to fight with. Its like all you freaks have been beaten with an idiot stick.

      We give billions to the Saudis, do you think that will end well? Yes, your boy. . Trump, gave billions in military hardware to the most hardest core Muslims you will ever meet. And you don't think American soldiers are not going be killed with that hardware?

      You are out of you freaking mind.

      And an example of why U. S. foreign policy is batshit crazy. Until the American public wakes the fuck up and stop pretending that selling military gear to extremists is a good idea, no matter who is in office, we will continue to be in peril.

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