Niceness Might Not be Sufficient but it is Necessary

Anyone who is familiar with the debate in conventional dating about whether or not women should date nice guys has probably seen the Jenna Marbles video:


This video is quite popular now and a lot of people agree with her sentiments, e.g. looking through some of the comments on the video:

'If you complain that you're a "nice guy" and girls don't like you it shows that you're a condescending asshole who is only nice because he wants girls to be with him, which doesn't make you a "nice guy"'

'Most so-called “nice guys” aren’t nice at all. They’re self-entitled, self-pitying, petulant assholes.'

'In my experience, people who brag about being "nice" often have little else to bring to the table.'

I can see why people would think this but let's look at things from another perspective. In my view, she shares some pretty disdainful attitudes in the video and misconceptions of what a nice guy is all about:

'I'd say 90% of the time guys say [nice guys finish last], it's about some reeeeally hot girl ... my problem here, my friend is, you're f**king swinging for the fences'

'There's a reason Beyonce is married to Jay Z, why Angelina Jolie f***s and sucks Brad Pitt's d***k off, I mean COME ON, people look for their EQUAL. Smart people like other smart people, funny people like other funny people, people like to have things in f**king COMMON!'

'You're probably very nice, but I know that you probably have nothing in common with a veeery good looking model that is completely that is very obsessed with material belongings and can't hold a conversation with a rock'

Nice Guys can be Attractive Too!

Niceness Might Not be Sufficient but it is Necessary^give this guy a chance!

Ok, that last point might have been accurate. But still, she makes all kinds of erroneous assumptions about the cliched 'nice guy' here.

In this article, I'm going to focus on the fact that THERE IS NO CORRELATION BETWEEN NICENESS AND ATTRACTIVENESS or lack, thereof.

In my view, these stereotyped misconceptions of the nice guy are in fact significantly flawed, see here: http://www.girlsaskguys.com/guys-behavior/a23286-my-take-on-the-nice-guy-debate

In this my take, I argued against the commonly held perception that the nice guy is unconfident, that he's a push over, passive-aggressive manipulator, etc. etc.

Sure, it's true that some nice guys are all these things and they really ARE punching waaay above their league. In fact, some 'nice guys' really AREN'T all that nice and really are trying to emotionally blackmail their way into a girls panties. Self-identified nice guys reading this article take note: make sure to stay self-aware of your own intentions when talking to a woman so that you are not using any manipulative tactics without realising it. And ensure that you are working on your image, interests, attractiveness as well so that you are not relying on your niceness alone.

But this is blatantly obvious. Blatantly.

What Jenna Marbles fails to identify is the following:

- Not all nice guys (as identified by others) are 'f**king swinging for the fences'.

- Not all nice guys are shooting for Beyonce or Angelina Jolie material.

- Not all nice guys necessarily have interest in a narcissistically materially obsessed model that can't even hold a conversation with a rock (not saying all models are like this).

I mean, shouldn't it be obvious and intuitive that a lot of men nowadays are NOT complaining because they're niceness isn't getting them 8/10 and 9/10s? Rather, a lot of men are complaining because not only are they nice, but they also ARE attractive, they do work out, they do have cool and fascinating interests. But pushier and manipulative men who, quite frankly speaking, belong to lower leagues in terms of physical attractiveness, success and real self-confidence in one's own abilities and personality are doing better than them? And a lot of the time, it's not because these men are preferred but it's simply because these men know how to push in front of the cue without getting caught - speaking metaphorically here.

Too often, women are getting with thickos and inbred genetically stunted lowlifes because these are the same guys that know how to treat women like dirt, preying on their emotional insecurities and insecurities about their appearance in a world that is very consumer oriented. Women don't even realise this is happening a lot of the time because the psychological manipulation is very subtle and adept. But this does not excuse them for dismissing genuinely nice guys that are attractive and ARE (inwardly) confident even if does not necessarily show right away. Sometimes you just have to give people a chance to show you who they really are before you see their true traits and attractiveness. In a competitive and individualistic world where society puts pressure on men to be dominant and aggressive initiators, they DON'T always have the chance to convey all their best, most positive attributes with that same succinct adeptness a polished turd salesman might have.

So this is why the my take is titled 'niceness might not be sufficient but it is necessary'. It's not sufficient because I agree that it's fair for women to have standards related to attractiveness, personality, confidence, etc. But it is necessary because not only would this be fairer for a lot of men, women would be happier and more secure in their relationships. Society on the whole would be a better place which did not reward these overly dominating and aggressive men that always seem to get ahead (and often seem to make more abusive spouses and neglectful parents, bringing up a new generation of dominating and aggressive men who also happen to be adept at getting their way with women through psychological warfare).


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What Girls Said 11

  • Lol every time I see Jenna marbles I think of the one YouTube chick who was fat shaming. Yea, she is right to a point, genuine people don't ha r to say they are genuine people. Its like a friend of mine who says " I don't sleep around f I'm not that type of girl" but she is lol.. she has had more partners in a year than most have in their lifetime... still love her tho

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  • I always go for good genuine nice guys. They just turn out to be assholes, once you get to know someone their true colors start to reveal themselves, it does not mean I believe that all guys are assholes who pretend to be gentleman.

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    • no offense, but they weren't 'good genuine nice guys' if they started to show their true colours after 5 minutes of knowing you.

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    • @Iamthefourthdoor -.- Everyone treats people better or worse based on how much they like them. I REALLY know that. Even the nicest person in the world is going to be an asshole at some point. People can't always be nice. And there are different perceptions on what makes someone an asshole, sort of. For instance, the whole opening the door for women thing. Some women would be like "Oh, thank you, that's so nice," others would expect you to just do it, because you're a man and she's a woman, others would be like "YOU MISOGYNIST PIG, LIKE I CAN'T OPEN A FUCKING DOOR FOR MYSELF!" Personally I like the last type most. Incidentally.

  • Getting really tired of the Nice Guy topic, but here’s my problem with your Take:

    "Rather, a lot of men are complaining because not only are they nice, but they also ARE attractive, they do work out, they do have cool and fascinating interests.”
    BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER. Just because Kanye could marry Kim, doesn’t mean I could marry Kanye. Just because you think you’re the perfect doesn’t mean I think you’re the perfect boyfriend FOR ME. Get what I’m saying? Just because you have "cool and fascinating interests” (which is subjective) doesn’t we share those same interests.

    "women are getting with thickos and inbred genetically stunted lowlifes because these are the same guys that know how to treat women like dirt”
    How is that different when guys fall in love with bitchy mentally unstable women, women who place themselves in a lot of drama, and women who constantly cheats and lie about the baby being his? Oh, IT’S NOT! So stop acting like only women do stupid things, because men have proven to be just as stupid.

    "Sometimes you just have to give people a chance to show you who they really are before you see their true traits”
    We do and our opinions rarely change. I give a lot of boring guys a chance and they end up being as boring as I thought they would be.

    " In a competitive and individualistic world where society puts pressure on men to be dominant and aggressive initiators,”
    JUST. BE. LIKABLE. Not every woman has the same standards. Just like not every guy likes the same type of girl.

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    • Ok, you have some good points, for example,

      'BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER.'

      Very true. But in this article, I'm talking about men that meet up to social expectations and apart from their niceness are attractive to women in other ways. Hell, the niceness isn't even unattractive per se: it's more of a logistical thing. Basically, women will go for the first caveman to sweep her off her feet and take her back to his cave. Because it's less effort for them. It kind of reminds me of a scene from the film Holes, after a man climbed a mountain every day for a year to grow a pig large enough to secure a bride from her father:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1bttQ-MhM0

      Basically, it's not even a question of moral obligation - who they ought to get with (because I would have told her to marry Igor too). What these women do is just objectively stupid.

      'How is that different when guys fall in love with bitchy mentally unstable women, '

      Take note: it's normally the assholes - those manipulative and aggressive men that I'm

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    • "Try being a guy in his 30s being told to settle down / be grateful for a girl that's already fucked around tenfold what he has after being sexually starved in his 20s in spite of general attractiveness and (inner) confidence."
      Sounds more like: Slut-shaming, having unrealistic standard, and a double standard.
      If you're not going to be with a girl just because she's sexually active, then the problem is you, not her.
      If you're looking for a pure virgin, then you better try going to anime conventions and bible camp.
      Why is a woman's virginity so important to you? I think this is also a problem with Nice Guys, you guys have this Madonna-Whore complex and that's not normal to have in this modern society.
      Guys are ENCOURAGED to be sluts in this day and age, but you don't see me complaining about their sexual activities.
      PEOPLE OF BOTH GENDERS are expected to lower standards because its assumed they had unrealistic standards to begin with.

    • Oh and someone perfectly described another problem with nice guys and good men: They're too old-fashion.
      "5. HE WISHES IT WERE 1950.
      He thinks men were chivalrous and polite back in the day, lament that he was born in the wrong era and attempt to embody their style. Unfortunately he also embodies their rampant misogyny and systematic sexism."

  • I like this take. I went for the nice guy. He really was genuinely nice and lovely. I have also experienced the pushy, entitled "nice guy" who complained because I didn't want to date him though he claimed he had done "everything I wanted". They were both nice but one was nice because that was just how he was and the other was nice in hopes of getting a girl and that niceness quickly went out the window if he didn't get what he felt he deserved.

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    • Yea, basically I'm not going to deny that the other kind of 'nice' guy exists... because he does. Anyway,

      'I went for the nice guy. He really was genuinely nice and lovely.'

      Good for you.

  • i went for the nice guy :), no regrets. i have observed this behavior in other girls and it does confuse me. i was reading the comments below about how girls say one thing and expect another and that seems pretty true for some chicks. i feel like once they get older though their going to look back and realize how stupid they are. that being said, i don't think most relationships made on the fly work out that well.

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    • 'i went for the nice guy , no regrets.'

      Awesome.

      ' i feel like once they get older though their going to look back and realize how stupid they are.'

      I think most of us are going to feel like that, hah.

  • aaagghhhh guys, it's not hard. chicks like nice guys. if you're nice & CONFIDENT, you will get a chick (unless you're totally socially retarded). the kinda "nice" we don't like is the straight off soppy, sucky-up, push-over "nice" we get from guys we don't know.
    they want something - we can smell desperation. they aren't just genuinely "nice" people.

    it's not complicated. this whole "chicks don't like nice guys" thing was obviously invented by some lonely, desperate guys who blame the fact they can't get women on us not likely "nice" guys - probably because that's a lot easier than picking out your own flaws & working on them to improve yourself. who doesn't like nice people?

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    • ' if you're nice & CONFIDENT, you will get a chick '

      this is my point: that's not necessarily the case. lots of nice men who are attractive in other ways (confidence included) but unsuccessful because they don't push in front of the cue to get what they want. in fact, genuinely nice men are a lot MORE confident than these assholes that get what they want through manipulation and aggressive tactics. we as a society don't need the latter men being sexually rewarded and passing on their faulty genes, thank you very much.

  • The fundamental problem lies in the fact that women are attracted to a lot of "bad boy" characteristics.
    1. They're sexual. They're good at sex because they've done it many times before. Sex with a more experienced, dark, sensual man is like crack for some women.
    2. They're broken. It's alarming how appealing this is--in the beginning. He's dark and tormented and we want to fix him. It's in our nature. This is why Twilight is a bestseller.
    3. They're unpredictable. Spontaneity keeps the romance alive. And it keeps him edgy and mysterious.
    4. They're unavailable. We always want what we can't have.

    Unfortunately, as you said, a lot of "bad boys" are emotionally manipulative. Women would be a lot better off if they'd find someone who isn't broken, who answers calls, and does what he says he's going to do. And a lot of women have to learn this the hard way, unfortunately.

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    • All very true, but women do not HAVE to learn the hard way.

      They could choose highly sexual and spontaneous men that are initially uninvested not because they are assholes but because they actually have a life outside of the woman. In short, there are lots of nice men like that: the dating game can be kept both civil AND exciting for the women. But lots of women are ignorant to this fact.

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    • nah, I'm cool with @Pippil 's perspective on this. at least she's honest about what she wants.

    • This is EXACTLY what the men who point out 'alpha fux/beta bux' are saying.

      Well said

  • This is the most aggravating topic on this site in my opinion. I could write a novel about it, but unlike some users I don't have the time nor the fucks to give.

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    • 'This is the most aggravating topic on this site in my opinion... I don't have the time nor the fucks to give.'

      You seem to have a contradictory stance there.

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    • " If you can write a novel about it, why don't you go ahead and write a novel about it instead of sitting on your arse talking about it. Get back to me once it's finished."

      Who tf are you. Get a life

    • I have one thanks, it's just that it involves more than making inflammatory comments on other people's mytakes devoid of any content or value to bring to the discussion.

  • But if a 'hot' girl likes an asshole thats on her and get over it. People will forever make their own decisions no matter how toxic the decisions may be. If anything we should as a society be raising better emotionally expressive non-asshole men (and more confident secure non-superficial women for that matter).

    Also that is life and while a very attractive girl may be a nice person she may not be attracted to a guy who is a nice guy by personality or a nice guy by looks and personality and guess what that is her choice and maybe she will learn a lesson as we all have to, men included, when it comes to making decisions with regards to the opposite sex.

    But I agree with her video though she makes a lot of good points, such as it is not easy finding someone who suits you and if it was you wouldn't learn anything like i said above.
    Also when she refers to nice guys she is not referring to good men who are not dominant etc but she refers to those men who are blameless and are in fact not nice people at all as a good stable woman does want a good guy and will not break up with a guy for being too nice ever.
    A girl who does this does not actually like that guy, has issues or is not stable or mature and that is the simple truth.

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    • 'People will forever make their own decisions no matter how toxic the decisions may be.'

      Right. So as they are entitled to their own decisions (assuming this is a western / liberal democratic context we're discussing here), the only thing we can do is objectively point out how toxic these decisions are - for the women, the men that bear the brunt of this toxicity, and society at large. That's why it's important to disregard moral notions of what is 'owed' by whom to who in favour of a consequentialist attitude.

      ' it is not easy finding someone who suits you and if it was you wouldn't learn anything like i said above. '

      Very true, this is why men on the whole will go through more of a journey of spiritual and philosophical self-development that involves overcoming both fear (approach anxiety) and the pain of rejection.

    • 'Also when she refers to nice guys she is not referring to good men who are not dominant etc but she refers to those men who are blameless and are in fact not nice people'

      If that's the case, I would argue that a more thorough distinction needs to be made in order to avoid confusion.

  • People should be nice, its a moral thing of society. So being a 'nice guy' makes no sense. A 'bad boy' is a Fonzie trend. How is debate still going on today?

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    • I agree with your moral sentiment that they *should* be nice, however this behaviour is not ALWAYS rewarded by society. In fact competitive and individualistic traits are often the most rewarded, and this is evidenced not only by the dating scene.

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    • @ras144 True of what you said.

    • 'I didn't know Jeanna Marbles = 50% of the world population'

      I said random women like Jenna Marbles, not '50% of the world population'.

  • There are nice guys out there, but the ones in the YT comments are referring to another set of men. They also exist, where they believe they are nice to a woman and therefore deserve their affection or something. I have witnessed this first hand once and it quickly made me change my mind about him.

    The guy in your pic looks somewhat similar to a guy I dated a few times, and you are correct... he was handsome, respectful and nice! Being respectful and showing kindness goes a long way with me and I show the same towards him (and other people).

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    • ' Being respectful and showing kindness goes a long way with me and I show the same towards him '

      It's good that you are like this. However, a lot of women are not.

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    • @ras144 'Dumb, Smart, Rich, poor, whatever, most aren't trying to find a wife in their 20's. They're find fuck buddies and easy-lays.'

      See my mytake about sex and monogamy:

      Basically, it's a double standard when otherwise promiscuous women are demanding their new partners 'wait for sex' just because they suddenly deem him 'relationship material'. Men are justified at balking at the hypocrisy of such an arrangement, especially when they are not very sexually experienced themselves (this goes for a majority of men in a world where women are both hypergamous and polygynous).

What Guys Said 27

  • Being nice is good
    "nice guy" as a phrase, in my opinion, is characterized as a pushover, weak, submissive guy. Which is great if thats her type, but most.. nevermind, ALL, women I date are into dominant high testosterone guys.

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    • yep, nice guys can be dominant as well. I have no problem with dominant / alpha male types being successful if they are reasonably nice people. it's when nice guys that have otherwise attractive qualities are being rejected in favour of equally or lesser attractive men just because they got ahead of them in the cue.

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    • @TheSkaFish I agree with your message, but thinking you need to be a douche or criminal is misguided to say the last, in my opinion.

    • Maybe so. That part about douches and criminals was more from my own personal experience than with every guy across the board though. All of the girls I wanted wound up with scum like that, and these were smart, creative, sweet girls too, that I could talk to fairly well.

      I just wish that "bad" wasn't seen as "cool" though. Or that there was some surefire way to get around it. But it's been that way since grade school, and due to pop culture, women in particular have this idea that delinquents are exciting and that non-tough guy, law-abiding citizens are a bunch of nancy-boys. That makes things not so great for those of us who are, well, nice. But being friendly has always been natural to me, and being a delinquent never appealed to me and would have cost me everything. It always seemed wrong.

      I'd like to find a way to be successful and exciting but minus the "alpha" part, if that makes sense. To me an alpha would be like The Situation or a Hell's Angels member. Its not for me.

  • The #1 thing that stands out to me is her generalization that nice guys usually bring nothing else to the table. I think that is vastly incorrect given that most nice guys I know, including myself, usually bring in the highest grades in college and thus will probably be more successful down the line. Though she does have a bit of a point that many nice guys can adopt a very pessimistic and frankly jerk-like attitude due to their own ineptness with women, feeling somewhat entitled due to their niceness. The most important thing to remember when dating is to be realistic. Find someone within your own league. If you are not ridiculously amazing then you probably shouldn't pursue someone who is. And frankly that doesn't bother me--usually the super attractive girls are the most boring and dull, while the average are somewhat more interesting.

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    • 'The #1 thing that stands out to me is her generalization that nice guys usually bring nothing else to the table.'

      Yep, this is the essence of the mytake and something that I find highly bothering also. I wish I could say that I stay perfectly cool and rational but that would be an outright lie. However, it seems like the only way to deconstruct such an inflammatory stance by such an arrogant individual is to stay VERY patient, lol.

      'Though she does have a bit of a point that many nice guys can adopt a very pessimistic and frankly jerk-like attitude due to their own ineptness with women, feeling somewhat entitled due to their niceness. '

      Right, so I would always say to men "be 'nice' but date within your own league and if you don't find these women attractive, BECOME more attractive.'

      The only problem with this, of course is that women rarely date within their own league exclusively. This is why men have got a LOT of work cut out for them. 'Nice' men even more so.

      Good comment.

    • "If you are not ridiculously amazing then you probably shouldn't pursue someone who is."

      That's what kills me about it all. The women that I found ridiculously amazing, intelligent, creative, passionate, beautiful, interesting, sweet and alive wound up with guys who were not at all. Just your typical tough-guy drunks and stoners. All they had was their "bad boy" image and attitude.

  • Thank you so much for writing a Take that isn't another mindless rant against nice guys, and glorifying "bad boys" as the rightful lords and masters of men. I can't stand that shit, so many people these days seem to get caught up in it. I want to ask the people who think "bad boys" are where it's at, what else I should have done? Should I have been a bully? Should I have gotten detentions all the time? Should I have done more drugs, gone to juvie, gone to jail? Stolen and vandalized stuff? Should I have been stupid and shallow, am I just too smart for my own good? Should I have thrown my family's kindness back in their faces and given them heart attacks even though I came from a stable home that only ever tried to help me? Why is it so "cool" to be a hyper-aggressive, domineering asshole? I can't stand those guys. I never want to be like them. In fact, I want to get a girl as a nice guy, to prove that nice can still beat "bad".

    It's so hard sometimes. I don't think I am punching above my weight. It's definitely not that I'm going for women that I can't talk to at all, and like them only for looks. I have gone for women who share my interests and seem to have enjoyed talking with me, and I enjoyed talking with them. I could see myself having a good time with them. But I don't know how I can show women that I am confident and interesting, because I just don't have any stories about doing drugs or committing crimes or joining a gang. Women seem to go wild for that bullshit but I just don't have it and don't want to. But I don't want to spend the rest of my life alone or with someone who doesn't inspire me. I wish I knew how to cause women to feel those feelings of excitement but without being a n'er-do-well.

    "... ensure that you are working on your image, interests, attractiveness as well so that you are not relying on your niceness alone."

    ^Yes, I definitely agree with that. I've fallen into that trap a lot. I know I'm not working on my interests, image, and attractiveness enough, leaving niceness as my strongest suit. I hadn't been working on my interests due to self-doubt and fear that I just didn't have any talent. It's definitely held me back.

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  • That video is so useless. By the way, when girls say a nice guy starts showing his true colors, those true colors are just reactions to the bullshit those girls put those nice guys through. Girls, stop making me feel guilty for problems that began when you chose assholes over me. If you want a genuine, nice guy, you have to be worthy. I'm only nice to people who deserve it.

    Currently, God has chosen me to destroy this planet. Mankind's corruption spreads no further. There's no point in being benevolent for humanity at it's current state. Once I destroy all malevolent beings on this planet, I will create a new era of benevolence on this planet. This is by far the most corrupt planet in the multiverse. I've entered this planet to cleanse it.

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    • yep, women hooking up to these men with sociopathic tendencies have all kind of toxic effects and social backlash. reading through the comments on most of my recent takes though, most of the GaG girls have not taken much notice of my recommendations. they are just looking for excuses to make irresponsible decisions. they don't care if they are sexually rewarding manipulative or aggressive traits in men, and they have little regard for the social ills that this is creating. if you dare to point this out objectively, they will just say something like "nice guys are not entitled to sex" which misses the point entirely. nobody is saying anybody is owed anything. what I'm saying is that the behaviour of some women is quite frankly disgusting and contributing to all kinds of debilitating consequences.

    • This planet has by far the worst class of sentient beings in the multiverse. This planet is a cosmic shame. Pathetic humans. This planet must be purged.

  • This is why i've given up. I've gone through the "nice guy" phase and i hated it. I started looking back at what went wrong after my first breakup and noticed the trend over and over again. Most of the problem was myself and the other fraction was the type of women i was trying to be with.

    This is why i've decided to just quit; rather focus on making myself a happier person and try to help others out. I can't be dragged back in when the last bit of my trust has been taken away and my heart has been obliterated into thin grains.

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  • There sure does seem to be a concerted effort to keep nice guys from acting like jerks, what's that about? Why do you care if a guy you won't date turns himself into a jerk you won't date?

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  • This problem's origin is from the Hollywood chick/guy/teen flicks, what ever you want to call them that makes it look like a guy needs to be some buff, overly confident, womanizerish prick and NOT a.. so called nice guy.

    That's not the real world and this Marbles girl is naive.

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  • also just use common since be nice when you need to. and put a bitch in his place if need be

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    • yeah, 'niceness if reciprocated' only. still even that isn't enough sometimes, even when the man is attractive.

  • I'd actually have issues with someone that can actually hold a conversation with a rock.

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    • Plus the whole 'nice men are not actually nice' is really blown out of proportion and it shows when you flip the script like this:

      "A guy and a girl have a sexual relationship and spend pleasurable time together. Further more she even cooks and clean for him. But when he told her he wouldn't commit to her she gave him a hard time and the cooking and cleaning stopped! She even stopped having sex with him!! Turns out she wasn't really nice and probably just wanted his pocket book. Nice women are only nice to get what they want."

  • Naaah, i disagree. Actually, i agree that you said it doesn't have anything to do with attractiveness at all. I don't agree that you get in a conflict with yourself saying it's necessary. It's not necessary, it doesn't have anything to do with it. It's simply not a variable in the equation.

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    • Necessary if you have moral beliefs and consider what the social effects are of all these assholes getting laid, starting abusive relationships and then raising new assholes.

    • Well, you're gonna have to tell it to the assholes then, since they're the ones being able to get laid and raise new assholes. I don't think they're gonna listen.

      The problem is, we keep teaching our kids being nice when the system and the nature couldn't give less s**t. We live in a system and a nature where cutting in front of the line is rewarded, we simply have to accept the fact and adapt.

    • 'Well, you're gonna have to tell it to the assholes then.'

      Nah, I'll just be condescending and judgmental over the internet.

      'We live in a system and a nature where cutting in front of the line is rewarded, we simply have to accept the fact and adapt.'

      That's not really the underlying principle of liberal democracy. In fact, if we fully embraced such a principle, it would lead to social decay pretty fast.

  • Solid take. I think the nice guy title is just sort of demeaning to most. I'm definitely a nice guy but i have confidence too. I think like anything should be taken in moderation you know.

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    • Yep, it's good to avoid all the stereotypes in describing the nice guy.

  • nice guy = just some ugly male trying to compensate for lack of looks. It's not the niceness that's the problem, but the ugliness.

    niceness = compensation for ugliness, which is in reality very counterproductive. Being nice is feminine trait and thus not manly. If personality compensation could work, that would be by showing agressions, cockyness, control, dominance, toughness and other dominant caveman behaviour.

    But in reality, only looks compensation I know for is wealth, money and high social status.

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    • 'just some ugly male trying to compensate for lack of looks.'

      dude, not all nice guys are ugly.

  • Its either people are attracted to you or they're not, its that plain and simple. Being nice has nothing to do with it. people gotta open their eyes and realize that they're blaming it on other false factors because they don't want to know the truth which is they're chasing girls or guys thats not in their own league and yes they are unattractive. P. s. to be honest i didn't even read i just watched the video

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    • or people could just be nice AND attractive and girls could ook for guys with the two of these traits, lol.

    • yup exactly

  • I've actually been on both sides of the coin, i. e. been both the nice guy and asshole before and from my experience girls liked me more when I was the asshole. I actually had a few girls called me an asshole yet at the same time couldnt help but fall for me. So I guess being an asshole does actually help. I did break a lot of hearts by being a jerk though, but better them hurt than me lol.

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    • 'better them hurt than me lol.'

      Think I can relate to that.

  • Did Jenna say that all supposed nice guys are swinging for the fences? Or did she say that when she hears about nice guys whining about it, the guys are swinging for the fences?

    Honestly. You're strawmanning the entire fuck out of her argument. Your last three points on swinging for the fences were not used as absolute generalizations by Jenna. It was used as a metaphor. "If you have nothing in common with someone, then you need to go find someone you have things in common with."

    I'll say this. The last time I posted this video to some whiny guy saying nice guys finish last, he replied, "Your username is stupid, so I'm not going to read what you wrote." Naturally, "You're really not that fucking nice." Point for Jenna. Maybe it was you.

    So... Basically, what I hear you saying is that you're pissy because you're a 10, and you get outplayed by a 6 or a 7. Shouldn't you be pissy at the guys at a lower level than you that have more game than you do--and how, exactly, do you know that these guys are assholes and that the women are going for assholes? Ultimately, it's her decision. If someone clicks, they click. You can be all pissy about it if you want to, or you can go look for someone you click with.

    Honestly, what I would be more concerned about is female social value vs. male social value. Females are worth a lot more than a man at the same level. Females have the innate biological value + any social value, while males only have social value that must be earned through occupation and achievement. This is what leads to 10s only finding 6s or 7s, and the general woman's inflated sense of self-value leading them to having even higher standards. As the okcupid statistics showing that women rated 80% of men as unattractive shows.

    If you ask me, Jenna's assertion that nice guys swing for the fences is more justifiable than your assertion that women go for 6s and 7s that treat them like shit over the perfect 10s (10s like you, no doubt).

    Jenna did, in fact, clarify that she was speaking from her own personal belief. In addition, she really did identify that not all guys are swinging for the fences. Are you speaking from belief? Or are you speaking factually?

    Really. Strawman out the ass. Not to mention you equated comments on her video with her own perspective. -.-;;

    You may as well have made a mytake saying "I really want some pussy, but no one will give me some, and I'm so great, too. :("

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    • 'Did Jenna say that all supposed nice guys are swinging for the fences? Or did she say that when she hears about nice guys whining about it, the guys are swinging for the fences?'

      She said

      'I'd say 90% of the time guys say [nice guys finish last], it's about some reeeeally hot girl... my problem here, my friend is, you're f**king swinging for the fences'

      So yeah, a lot of generalisations here. Also, isn't JM pulling a strawman out her ass when she says this about guys who say 'nice guys finish last'? She's assuming it's because they're chasing some super hot girl.

      'Your last three points on swinging for the fences were not used as absolute generalizations by Jenna. It was used as a metaphor'

      Tbh, just her patronising demeanour alone when she says things like this, or talks about Angelina Jolie sucking Brad Pitt's dick, is pretty vile.

    • 'what I hear you saying is that you're pissy because you're a 10'

      Dude, in no world do I think I'm a ten or that I deserve to be dating tens for that matter, now. Seriously, what's with all the strawmen?

      'do you know that these guys are assholes and that the women are going for assholes? '

      Not every successful guy is an asshole and not every woman only goes for assholes. Still, you can't deny it's out there.

      'women go for 6s and 7s'

      Actually you read any of my other posts and you will see that actually I think women are quite hypergamous (and polygynous). This means they typically date way ABOVE their league. In this post, I'm also arguing that attractive men with sociopathic tendencies will be preferred over attractive men without.

      'Jenna did, in fact, clarify that she was speaking from her own personal belief.'

      Then maybe she shouldn't have such an obnoxious attitude and make such inflammatory statements.

    • 'Not to mention you equated comments on her video with her own perspective.'

      Nope, hence why I distinguished the two.

      'You may as well have made a mytake saying "I really want some pussy, but no one will give me some, and I'm so great, too. :("'

      And how would you know all of this, smart arse?

      (By the way straw man, ad hom, generalisation, etc., etc.)

  • I prefer to take note of two different guys. Nice guys and good guys. Nice guys have been erroneously taught that if you act like a good person you are entitled to a reward.

    This is of course wrong. Being a good person is important, but the reward is static. You are creating something when you are a genuinely good person. But that's not what this is about.

    You sound like you completely want to change reality and society to cater to an ideal where guys who are patient and wise gain women of high caliber.
    But those things are not and will not ever be related. Otherwise the Dhali Lama would be up to his neck in the finest of women.

    Instead you must submit to reality and understand society will change slowly. If you are a good person and you want women to be with a good partner, you must pursue and encourage others to pursue while cultivating yourself as a human being.

    Realize, confidently, that you are a person who can contribute something meaningful to a relationship. Foster a stable and healthy lifestyle. Maintain interests that come in a wide variety and be cultured. And believe that have a responsibility to go out into the world to find a partner who will appreciate those things and deserves that in their life. Step past the bad boys and make a damn effort. Invite the person you like into your life. And if they do go for someone who makes their life toxic then realize they weren't the right person in the first place and move on. But provide them with encouragement from time to time.

    It's actually very easy to explain, but lengthy to write.

    Further, people who are typically this kind of good person are clerical types, and are not going to meet everyone's needs. Which is fine.
    A bad boy isn't always what you think they are. And not every woman is attracted to aggression. There's ways to make yourself noticed by these partners without being aggressive.
    Explaining all this is also lengthy. Just realize that the woman you find chilling at home, at a play, and in a club have vastly different needs and desires.

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    • Generally speaking I agree on this. The stereotypical 'nice guy' has manipulative traits in so far as he does supposedly 'nice' things for others expecting some kind of reward for his behaviour - e. g. popularity, nice women, etc. The 'good guy' just does things from the goodness of his own heart.

      But it's past the scope of this article since I'm talking mainly about the good guy here and how women still some manage failing to see these positive traits even in an attractive man who possesses them.

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    • Although typing this out makes it feel like bragging, I'd like to think I'm a good person.
      I genuinely enjoy giving more than taking in general, take pleasure from being able to be a positive presence in other people's lives. If I am to believe people around me, I cut myself short oftentimes; I see my genuine empathy as average, much like almost everything about myself if not slightly below. (Saves giving people too high expectations of me, which is nice.)

      That said, even though I now live on my own and have improved a lot in the past few years, am actually content with who I am, am happy with my morals and values (live and let live, and all that), and enjoy my own presence and things I do, I can't see myself as relationship material due to a failed relationship over 5 years ago.
      Realistically it was not just me but both of us that had issues, and I changed tremendously for the better since, but I haven't had any opportunity to develop myself romantically nor sexually since.

    • I have no idea how I'd be able to develop on those fronts without an actual relationship ( any suggestions?), and I can't consider myself relationship material until I have sufficiently enough. Severe lack of sexual experience is also detrimental as it's expected of the man to have plenty of experience already; it's rare a man is a dead fish in bed, while it's surprisngly common with women; part of submissive preference and all.
      As such, I don't pursue any romance at all, am completely passive. I am fully aware that as a man, this is detrimental as one is supposed to take almost all initiative, take the lead, etc. I'm fully aware it's my own "fault" though, no blame or resentment towards women for it at all.
      If I'll ever try to pursue anything, I'll acept the reduced odds instead of becoming a dick; I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror otherwise, and nobody is worth that.
      Friends etc seem to enjoy my presence without me having to change, so I'll stick with that for now.

  • I hate Jenna Marbles. Die slow b*tch.

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  • The bashing of nice guys annoys me to no end. Not because I feel I deserve all the hot women. But because it seems like everyone thinks that being a 'nice guy' is just a way to get in women's pants. It seems it's a justification women use to not feel bad going for the bad boys instead of a nice guy. I really really dislike being grouped with people just using being "nice" as a strategy to get laid. People also say that being nice is expected, but they confuse being nice with being polite. Being nice is a character trait, caring for other people, having good intentions, being polite refers to the behaviour when interacting with others, saying 'thank you', apologizing, etc.
    If women don't want to date nice guys, that's fine. But at least be honest about why. Don't say it's because they only want sex, as a reward for being nice. It's because they are boring and/or unattractive.

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    • ' it seems like everyone thinks that being a 'nice guy' is just a way to get in women's pants. '

      yep, this is indeed a common misconception. also, there's nothing wrong with going about dating in a manner that's nice / civil - not everyone that does it is manipulative, and it would be much better if (attractive) men doing this were getting laid rather than men being sexually rewarded for being assholes.

  • I think the real issue isn't that the nice guy is really manipulative and feels entiteled etc. I think the issue is that women don't admit what they want. The fact is a nice guy who gets upset by being rejected (don't we all?) isn't him being manipulative or entitled. The fact that they complain is because they are told women like nice guys but then they are rejected again and again for being a "nice guy". Its the conflicting message that gets them so frustrated. The other issue I think is that a lot of women cannot distinguish between being nice and confident and an asshole (who in my opinion are very much unconfident and are simply overcompensating). This causes a lot of conflict. Then you have the women who complain that there boyfriend is an asshole and they just want a nice guy who then promply ignore the nice guy to find anotther asshole then act suprised that the guy who was an asshole when she first met him is still, all this time later, an asshole. If a woman wants that I don't think anybody really would care, her life her descisions, its the fact that many women refuse to acknowledge that it is their choice that they are responsible for who they date and therefore have no right to complain when those people act the way they always have. So I think this all plays into why nice guys are so frustrated, not because women don't seem to like them but that so many women claim they do when their actions say they don't. Imagine going to work and having your boss tell you to do something then having them yell/reprimand you for doing exactly as they asked, its much the same thing.

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    • I agree with your sentiments that the ambiguity will exacerbate the nice guy's frustration (which is to be expected when society has plainly lied to him about what women want). However, I think it's also important to talk about the toxic social effects of choosing the assholes over the nice guy.

      Let's assume nice guy a) and asshole b) are both equally attractive men in other regards because this removes some of the confusion, as well as the misconception that 'nice guys' don't have anything else going for them. Let's also assume the nice guy is genuinely nice: he is not just using manipulative tactics (consciously or subconsciously) to make the woman feel guilty into sleeping with him. The asshole WILL be more successful and the reason is simple: he's obnoxious, he's in your face and he will go after what he wants even if he hurts people's feelings. When the woman sees the asshole, she takes him because he is the easier option.

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    • True. I am in fact all for men being told the truth, everybody really. I do think that will resolve most issues.

    • I don't know about most, but certainly some.

  • The alpha assholes will tell the world that gentleness is just a way to hide how mean, stupid and boring a beta guy is.
    Being an asshole, on the contrary, proves his honesty and alpha male capacities.

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    • Yep, some guys ARE like this although in all fairness, 'don't hate the player, hate the game' are pretty sound words here.

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