Bill Nye: Can We Stop Telling Women What to Do With Their Bodies?

[OrdinaryGentleman]

(To people saying the fetus is a human life)

If your sister gets in a car crash (let's say you were driving the car drunk), and she needs an organ, and you're the only person in the world who can donate that organ, it is illegal for you to be forced to give it to her. Even if it wouldn't be life threatening to you, even if your sister would die without it. It's illegal to force you to give any part of your body to keep her alive. How is abortion any different?

So to conclude this short statement...

Abortion is a choice and a right. For a lack of a better word, it is a necessary evil. It's a difficult decision to make and is never taken lightly. It's an emotional roller coaster filled with shoulda could've wouldas. At the end of the day, only you can make that choice for yourself. No one else is living your life and no one else will be helping you pay your bills.

[Prettygurl12]

This is the argument.

If your younger sister gets in a car accident and desperately needed a blood transfusion to live and you were the only one who could give it to her, no one can force you even though donating blood is relatively easy and safe. It is illegal to force someone to donate blood.

It's called bodily autonomy. It's a notion that a person's control over their own body is above all important and must not be infringed on.

You cannot take life saving organs from corpses unless the person who is now the corpse, when alive, gave consent. Even corpses get bodily autonomy.

To tell people that they must sacrifice their bodily autonomy for 9 months against their will in an incredibly expensive, invasive, difficult process to save what YOU view as another human life (debatable) is desperately unethical. You can't even ask someone to sacrifice bodily autonomy to give up organs they aren't using anymore.

You are asking people who can be pregnant to accept less bodily autonomy than we grant dead people.

You're saying that women are worth less than a corpse.

THAT is your argument, sir. And I salute you.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Damn XD... well I know when I am beat

[Prettygurl12]

I was merely restating your argument.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Oh... it is late here that is my excuse and I am pretty wiped out from all the sex, I bid you good day madam and hope you can get more than me.

[gotc147]

The argument is weak, you're demanding that someone who hasn't even had the chance to live be given less bodily autonomy than someone who already lived their life to the end.

Crazy people seriously... So much fuss over *your* body and how nobody should have any say over what you do with it while simotaneously demanding complete control over another body (the unborn baby's).

[OrdinaryGentleman]

@gotc147 So is yours? Without the host the baby would die... which is the point of it being her body, it is a part of her until the child is born... your argument is weak.

[gotc147]

There have been cases of siamese twins sharing a vital organ (like the brain), does the twin who has more of the brain get to decide if the other gets to live or die, even if they're otherwise functional?

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Again your point is weak.

[Intraluminal]

That is SUCH a wonderful and clearly made point! I love it! They would deny women the body autonomy that they insist be given to a corpse. Great!

[PiuBelloAmante]

I can't agree with you, abortion isn't necessary at all
does it exist yes
is it murder, depends on how you view it... i think it is.
And i dont think its healthy either.

with so much information about contraception and pregnancy prevention methods, its up to us to be responsible and not impregnate our women

i am against abortion. 100% but thats my belief, and i will be responsible enough to never get a partner pregnant unintentionally

but i will never tell a woman, not to do it, or to do it. its her decision and she will have to deal with making the decision for herself.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

That is a respectable and moderate approach to this issue, well said.

[PiuBelloAmante]

thank you

[pnl86]

Can We Stop Telling Men What to Do With Their Money?

Oh wait...

While I agree that abortion is a fundamental right to liberty, I disagree with your reasoning. The reasoning is circular.

"You're the only person in the world who can donate that organ, it is illegal for you to be forced to give it to her."

Okay? That's the status of that legal relationship between your sister and yourself.

"How is abortion any different?"

It's different because it involves the legal relationship between the biological "carrier" of the developing child, and the "developing child."

That would be like saying, "it's not lawful for someone to just go into my bank account and force me to pay THEIR bills with MY money" ... so... "why should men have to pay for child support?" How is child support any different?

That reasoning is circular, because it relies on "legal status" of one situation (apples) and applies it to another situation (oranges), and simply advocates for the same conclusion.

"Prior to" the car accident that caused the sister to be in peril, the brother and sister were completely independent from each other. The sister was not biologically dependent on the brother. She could survive without him. The brother's "legal" or "moral" obligations towards his sister, "before" or "after" being "the cause" of her peril, have no relationship to their biological relationship.

When conception occurs, however, absent any intervention to prevent the natural development of the child, a child will likely result. "Life" is actively in motion. When someone murders a pregnant woman, those are "two" murders: one for the woman, one for the baby (even if the baby was never even touched... because by killing the biological "carrier," the murderer has also necessarily killed the life "dependent" on that carrier as well).

The "law" creates "legal duties." So, it's "circular" to try to "reason" by pointing to "the law."

Constitutional law is not moral philosophy. So, religious zealots can complain to their church, but cannot impose their "moral beliefs" into "law" through the courts or legislature.

Similarly, however, the state government "CAN" FORCE people to be responsible for almost anything... the only limitation being those contained within the Constitution (i. e., individual rights).

The "legal reason" abortion is a "legal right," is NOT because of "bodily autonomy" (c. f., the draft), but because of "liberty" (i. e., autonomy over one's own "life course").

[pnl86]

If individuals had the right to "bodily autonomy" (not "morally," but "legally" under the Constitution), then the police could not take a person's "blood" after an accident and convict based on blood alcohol content; and "the draft" would be unconstitutional.

Arguments cut both ways. Religious zealots cannot inject their own "moral beliefs" into "constitutional law," but "moral beliefs" cannot be used to "read into" constitutional law either. The only individual right that is actually mentioned in the constitution is the right to "liberty," of which "privacy" is a subsect of.

[pnl86]

"If the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child." Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U. S. 438 (1972).

Explained with even more clarity, regarding its pure constitutional legal basis:

Women, it is now acknowledged, have the talent, capacity, and right to participate equally in the economic and social life of the Nation. Their ability to realize their full potential, the Court recognized, is intimately connected to their ability to control their reproductive lives. Thus, legal challenges to undue restrictions on abortion procedures do not seek to vindicate some generalized notion of privacy; rather, they center on a woman’s autonomy to determine her life’s course... ." Gonzales v. Carhart, 550 U. S. 124 (2007) (J. Ginsburg's dissenting opinion); See, www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/05-380.ZD.html

[pnl86]

"The LEGAL right" to abortion is a question of "Constitutional LAW," not "moral philosophy."

So, while all these "non-legal arguments" sound nice, and coincidentally get us to the same conclusion the U. S. Supreme Court has arrived at, they don't really shed any light on "why" abortion "is" a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT.

It is the ability to determine one's "life course" that is at the core of the right to "privacy," which is (again) just a subsection of the right to "liberty."

People are not "entitled" to "absolute" freedom under the Constitution, otherwise, "laws" would be meaningless. That's NOT what "liberty" means.

But, "If the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child." Eisenstadt v. Baird.

So, if someone simply "doesn't want to be a parent, yet," THAT IS ENOUGH of a reason UNDER THE CONSTITUTION.

[pnl86]

By "framing" the over-simplified terms of "it's my body, therefore, it's my choice," you're implying that "moral beliefs" control the discussion regarding a question of "Constitutional Law."

By doing so, what you're advocating for is that, "If it's not your body, then YOU HAVE NO CHOICE" ... not with respect to what "I" (the female) do with my own body... but with respect to "YOUR" (the male) legal obligations with respect to "the child."

In other words, if I poke holes in your condom, or lie about being on birth control, or tie you to a chair and forcibly extract your sperm and artificially impregnate myself... then a simple DNA test can change your entire life (as a man) ... and you have absolutely NO CHOICE regarding your own LIFE'S COURSE

"I" (the woman) can dictate your "parental" status, and "FORCE" you to be a father, even if you don't want to... under the reasoning/theory of... "Well, it's MY BODY, therefore, it's MY CHOICE."

[OrdinaryGentleman]

That was well written and pretty persuasive. Still doesn't change my view but I can respect it.

[TJ-Laser]

well your comparison of a fetus to an organ is laughably ridiculous.

organ
Any part of the body exercising a specific function (for example, respiration, secretion, or digestion).
medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/organ

Fetus
the developing young in the uterus, specifically the unborn offspring in the postembryonic period, which in humans is from the third month after fertilization until birth
medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fetus

"To people saying the fetus is a human life"

If the fetus isn't a human life, then what is it? its not a bird, horse or fish. it is human. and is it alive? well, the definition of life is

"The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism."
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/life

now, does the human fetus meet any of these requirements? yes, it does. It grows, it has a metabolism, and responds to stimuli. a very premature baby will respond to noise, so its safe to assume that its auditory system must have been functioning whilst it was in the womb.

To further this, studies have proven that the human fetus has the ability to learn prenatally.
www.tandfonline.com/.../02646839308403210

so yes, the human fetus does in fact meet the requirement to be defined as alive.

so I ask you again, if the fetus is not a human life, what is it?

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Hmm I think it is laughable you go to such great lengths to attempt to prove a point. First off those who are already alive have rights over those who are not. A baby is not, you could argue and get all flustered about how I am so wrong in my belief that I should put the people who are bearing this childs life first. On this planet there are far too many people as it is, and guaranteed all those people having abortions are, young, on welfare, can't hold a job, or anything for that matter and you expect that kid to be raised and happy in this world? It is unfair for both the parent or whoever in that case. You are essentially taking rights away, I personally wouldn't have any problem with it since it is a necessary evil like I said, now I just wasted 5 minutes of my time on something I have already said and/or was stated in my video.

[TJ-Laser]

"Hmm I think it is laughable you go to such great lengths to attempt to prove a point"
you think research is laughable? that explains a lot as you clearly haven't done any. this is obvious as you are getting upset when presented with the facts.

"First off those who are already alive have rights over those who are not. A baby is not, you could argue and get all flustered about how I am so wrong in my belief that I should put the people who are bearing this childs life first"
babies are not alive? you have a very strange idea of what life is.

"On this planet there are far too many people as it is, and guaranteed all those people having abortions are, young, on welfare, can't hold a job, or anything for that matter and you expect that kid to be raised and happy in this world?"

you can guarentee that all of those women who have abortions are young, on welfare and can't hold a job? 100%? well again, if you bothered to do your research you would know that statement is wrong. if you check t

[TJ-Laser]

if you check the abortion statistics for 2014 which can be found here

www.gov.uk/.../abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2014

you will see that 45.5% of abortions were on women aged 25 and over. i won't bother checking the other stats as you failed at the first hurdle.

"You are essentially taking rights away, I personally wouldn't have any problem with it since it is a necessary evil like I said, now I just wasted 5 minutes of my time on something I have already said and/or was stated in my video."

bear in mind, I've not shared my opinion on abortion. I've not said if im pro choice or pro life. you seem to be assuming what my views are. What I am is pro research and Im pointing out flaws in your original statement. You can get defensive all you want, but you have not done any research into the matter at all and you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. You have also failed to answer my question so I will ask it again.

faced with the facts i presented to you earlier, if the fetus is not a human life, what is it?

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Abortion in the UK is a joke. The uk is far more advanced than the US simply because healthcare is more readily available. If you are pro-research than why don't you watch the video, isn't that what you are supposed to do? Because if you were not clear on this research by definition the systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions.
I just told you it isn't considered human life... why are you reading so much into it, on top of that you can't seem to wrap your head around pure science, watch the video :)
And to finally add to your point you have failed to research into the topic of my choice, meaning the video, what I cannot understand is why watching the video and stating legitimate reasons seems to elude you. Within the first few lines you were in fact hurt by what i said it is quite relevant in your writing"If the fetus isn't a human life, then what is it? its not a bird, horse or fish. it is human. and is it..

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Just watch the video, this was more of a discussion of politics than statistics and preferrably something scientific. like I said before this was in fact for women. Women must carry the child from conception all the way until 9mos or earlier to birth. It is simply and undeniably inconceivable to sit there and say something is alive yet must rely upon nourishment, live inside another host and ultimately be birthed. Now to get back to my damn point since you went off on this tangent, women should retain the right to have abortions simple as that. Now have you watched the video? Anyways I don't have time and haven't a clue as to what you are doing here but regardless, I don't have time for it. So blocked.

[TJ-Laser-2]

haha blocked because you have no idea what are talking about. i'll answer your previous post though

"If you are pro-research than why don't you watch the video, isn't that what you are supposed to do?"

I did watch the video, however i am not talking about the video. i am questioning your ridiculous statements following the video. namely "To people saying the fetus is a human life"

That statement implies that you think the fetus is not human life. to which I asked the question, "if the fetus is not a human life, what is it?" A legitimate question, no? If you truly believe that it is not human life then you must be able to tell me what it is. its seems however you cannot.

"I just told you it isn't considered human life... why are you reading so much into it, on top of that you can't seem to wrap your head around pure science, watch the video"

because you told me it isn't considered human life then it must be true? you have done 0 research into the topic outside of watching a vide

[TJ-Laser-2]

which has very little science in it, just some random guy stating his opinion.

"And to finally add to your point you have failed to research into the topic of my choice, meaning the video, what I cannot understand is why watching the video and stating legitimate reasons seems to elude you."

the thing is, he is talking about fertilized eggs. not once does he mention the word fetus. fertilized eggs and fetus' are 2 completely different things which again is why I was questioning your statements following the video, namely "To people saying the fetus is a human life" well it is a human life. it IS alive, and it IS human.

"Within the first few lines you were in fact hurt by what i said it is quite relevant in your writing"If the fetus isn't a human life, then what is it? its not a bird, horse or fish. it is human. and is it.."

no, i wasn't hurt just proving a point. if it isn't human then what is? you still cannot answer that.

[TJ-Laser-2]

"It is simply and undeniably inconceivable to sit there and say something is alive yet must rely upon nourishment, live inside another host and ultimately be birthed"

is it inconceivable? have you heard of parasites? parasites that live inside the body and rely on nourishment from the host.

now before you take that the wrong way im not saying the human fetus is a parasite, im saying that nearly all of that statement can apply to some parasites yet they are clearly alive.

the point is, I've had fun messing with as I have biology degree and you are clearly talking utter crap.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Lol whatever dude THAT IS WHAT THIS POST WAS ABOUT>>>>POLITICS>> NOT DATA, like I defined before the term Research which you clearly didn't do until I dogged you about it... maybe I was talking utter crap, abortion isn't something I care about, at the end of the day I am sure you will come to a conclusion that it is needed.

[TJ-Laser]

"like I defined before the term Research which you clearly didn't do until I dogged you about it"

I didn't do my research? lol. pull the other one.

lets see here...

1. you claim that a human fetus is not human life. wrong
2. you claim babies aren't alive. wrong
3. you claim 100% of women who have abortions are young, jobless and on welfare. in fact you said you can guarantee it. wrong
4. you claim the video you posted is "pure science". wrong
5. you seem to think that anything that is inside another organism, and relies on that organism for nourishment cannot be alive. wrong.
6. you dont care about abortion? so why are you trying to defend your bullshit claims so vigourously? you obviously do care... so wrong.
7. well at least you admit to talking crap.

1 out of 7 so who didn't do their research?

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Half of those are your opinions lol, whatever dude you win

[TJ-Laser]

no, everything i said is fact and can be proven if you do your research.

1. is a human fetus a human life?
It has human DNA which makes it human. it is growing and developing and is capable of dying, thus it is human and alive. We are not debating whether it is sentient or conscious, but it is human and it is alive. fact.

2. you claim babies aren't alive.
I can't believe you even came out with this one. Im not even going to humour you this time. they are alive. fact.

3. you claim 100% of women who have abortions are young, jobless and on welfare. in fact you said you can guarantee it.
I already provided proof against this. you're wrong. fact.

4. you claim the video you posted is "pure science".
that video contains the bare minimum of science. no facts, no figures just some random old dude giving his opinion on fertilized eggs. fact.

[TJ-Laser]

5. you seem to think that anything that is inside another organism, and relies on that organism for nourishment cannot be alive.
google tape worms. they are very much alive, live inside its host and rely on it for noursihment. fact.

6. you dont care about abortion? so why are you trying to defend your bullshit claims so vigourously? you obviously do care...
if you dont care, why start the debate in the first place?

7. well at least you admit to talking crap.
this is fact as you even admit to it.

1 out of 7 of these points are my opinion. that 1 is point number 6 as i think you do care you just have no idea what you're talking about. the remaining 6 are facts.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

And now you are just talking out of your ass. Take your logical reasoning and leave.

[TJ-Laser]

im talking out of my ass? everything i questioned in my last comment was a statement made by you, true or false? true... yet you do not have answer to any of it. your answers consist of sending me childish PM's snotty comebacks claiming i have not done my research.

we have already discovered that you are talking utter rubbish which is backed up by your claim that babies are not alive.

what drugs are you on? seriously, you are more deluded than i thought!

[jormungand]

I think the opinion owner wins this one.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

He honestly gave more of a shit than I did, thats why he "won".

[TJ-Laser]

no, honestly you had no idea what you were talking about lol. you even admit you were to talking crap, not only to me but to another user on here, and I quote "Eh it was a flop for me honestly, didn't really give it much thought"

And you wonder why people call you out on your BS?

[Anonymous]

My only problem is that I feel like first of all a lot of people claim that we all once were sperm cells. As if that's all we are even though DNA of our mother and father mix. That's the funny part of it. That's the true ignorance here, but to play devil's advocate all of a sudden because "you" the "sperm cell" are inside the woman it automatically makes it fully up to her as to if she should keep the baby or not.

This kind of logic must be as ridiculous to me as the bible is to Bill Nye and many of the GAGers on here.

I understand that the woman has to go through a lot. I also understand that most development and birth of the child comes from the mother. However, without the male the child would have never even been conceived much less born. Also, it's his kid to is it not?

Should we treat the MALE like meat? Should we treat the MALE like a corpse? Only good for impregnating women in which then the male's child is taken from him and put solely into the female's hands?

Do I think abortion when it comes to morals is wrong? In some cases, but I believe people have the choice. I don't believe in forcing someone to keep their kid. If in their heart they don't want them then they don't need them. However, I DO feel it is the right of the father to have a say in the matter.

I know there are situations where the father impregnates the woman and then is never heard from again. In that case okay yeah woman's choice. However, I believe there are also cases where women act on their own without even consoling the father or not even considering his different opinion.

This is wrong to me. So I disagree with Bill Nye on that front. "Especially if she doesn't like your genes." No. Men shouldn't be treated like dogs. "Here doggie come impregnate me. Then I'll decide if I want the baby or not." If women have rights to their baby then men should too. Like I said there are cases where like Bill mentioned the woman gets raped or something. Then okay. I can understand her having the sole right, but not when the father had sex with her with her consent and she just decides to take his child from him when he wanted it or they didn't at least talk about it.

One more thing about Bill Nye. Bill Nye to me used to a funny, charismatic, and fun guy who made science interesting. Now... he's just a grumpy old man to me. Even if he's somewhat right.

[annie_annie]

It is simply something that should be illegal. Everybody knows how to get pregnant in today's society AND how to freaking PREVENT that to happen. It's not the unborn's fault that it's there after all. And looking for some stupid scientistic excuse reminds me on "religious" terrorists saying, they're going to war for their god, because it's "good" and the rigt thing - ergo-> an excuse.

Most regret abortion afterwards, anyway. Why? Because our subconscious mind is probably right at this point. You are indeed killing a life/-form. This "thing" is a result of not-save sex, and if you're too stupid to use protection or won't be able to deal with the consequences (risk of becoming pregnant), it's your problem. Blame your partner or yourself for it.

Sex hasn't been made for just having fun anyway. It's a tool of reproduction. You wanna tell me, that unborn thing "isn't a human yet"? What is it, a freaking alien? Please, overthink this...

But in the end, it's the woman's choice. Sad if she does so, but oh well. There are many cruel things happening daily, anyway...

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Its an unborn child. I really think that those just opposed to it are the ones overthinking it. Death is just a fact of life, those who are not in this world yet do not have a monopoly over those that are. It remains a necessary yet undesirable thing.

[DuckDodgers24th]

Yeah I do believe it's killing something. If you consider it a human or not is up to you, but something dies. Can't deny that.

I also feel it should be the man's choice just as much as the woman's.

[annie_annie]

@DuckDodgers24th yeah, since it came from 2 people. And if somebody is against it, there will be no abortion at all.

You nailed it: something dies, whether it's a tiny human being yet or not much of it. It is still a murder. Killing always was, always will be. People who look for other "words"/"explanations" for it are just trying to deny the facts.

[OpenClose]

I really like Nye's video. I am Pro-Choice, but I often play devil's advocate on behalf of Pro-Lifers, so there are some things I would like people to understand when debating with pro-lifers:

- The abortion debate is not directly about "men" trying to control "women's" bodies, when so many pro-lifers are women, and so many pro-choice are men. In fact, the large majority of pro-lifers I know are women.

- For Pro-Lifers, there isn't an innate disregard for a woman's bodily autonomy. As I said, a lot of pro-lifers ARE women. Rather, the idea is that an infant's right to life should take precedence. And the debate about the point at which it is no longer your body. For instance, to many pro-lifers I know, it is no longer your body when it no longer your genetic code.

- For the "fertilized eggs being lost" argument, the idea is that losing fertilized eggs falls under the same moral code as a miscarriage.

- "If men could get pregnant, there would be abortion clinics everywhere." Well first of all, I could bring up circumcision, how it doesn't benefit the boy, causes a lot of pain, and yet is still up for debate.

However, I also say that if men DID put up abortion clinics everywhere, you can be sure that a large number of women would protest it, calling it "yet another example of men's violence for the sake of controlling their privilege". That is, they would see it as men killing babies so that they don't have to get pregnant.

Now again, I am pro-choice overall. But you have to understand the other viewpoint before you can really go forward. Just because pro-choice seems obvious, doesn't mean pro-lifers are idiots.

[GirlsLie]

I'm really torn on abortion because what I personally/morally think is different than my legal opinion.

Morally I consider the fetus a life/a baby and I could personally never have an abortion because I would feel entirely too much guilt.

But I don't think my opinion should impact the lives of others or their decision to have an abortion. I don't know their circumstance, their health/emotional state, their financial situation, i'm also aware that others don't see a fetus as a human life.

In the end, I just don't think my moral opinion should out weigh someone else's legal right to an abortion.

[thetundrawolf]

That's like me saying, "Can people just stop telling me not to shoot people randomly? It's my gun and my life!" Abortion, which is the murder of an un born fetus, is legal. But it takes a life. Women who have abortions are scarred by it. They're literally killing their offspring. I've talked with a woman who had one and it still affects her to this day.

How about practicing responsible sexual behaviors, like waiting for marriage to have sex, so you know that that person is the right one, and you are ready to support a child? I think aborton is supported by loose moral people who just want to have consequence free sex with anyone they want. But there are consequences to what we do.
Remember that.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

*abortion Why would you wait until marriage? No I am a constitutionalist/conservative, yet I see the necessary need for it. There are consequences to what we do that is true, young teens however are not considered responsible until they reach 18 and mind you 18 is not an age of a responsible adult. So an action that could ruin the rest of their lives potentially leading to death should be blocked by people not even apart of their lives?

[thetundrawolf]

I don't buy that. If our society were more moral, we would be teaching those under 18 about the precious nature of their hearts, minds, and bodies-and the importance of finding someone who will love them for them, not for how quickly they open their legs.

Many more women find fulfillment and a purpose to live from having a child than women who die by having a baby, that is a non argument.

This is a rapidly decaying society that uses logic like yours to justify abhorrent behavior.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

@thetundrawolf just like your abhorrent behavior to tell others what to do, i am certain many dictators thought the way you did. Regardless you are incredibly late and the online arguments get nowhere. later.

[SirenDep]

www.priestsforlife.org/.../163.jpg

that's what abortion is. yes, the fetus is a human life, which dies by being cut into pieces, when a woman does an abortion. The baby isn't a part of a woman's body, she acts as a host until the baby is born. I know there are situations where it's very tough to decide what to do, but I think it's best to let the baby live and then give it for adoption.

[lumos]

It's actually rare for an abortion to occur as late as 23 weeks. 89% of abortions occur within the first 12 weeks and only about 1.2% occur after 21 weeks.
Why should a woman be forced to go through a pregnancy that she clearly doesn't want? The stress and the trauma of going through an unwanted pregnancy is certainly not healthy for the child either. Not to mention how crazily overpopulated our planet already is.

[Kinstrome]

@lumos Overpopulation is much overstated; as areas modernize economically, it becomes less and less of a problem. Whatever morality issues exist within abortion, the issue of overpopulation isn't really a factor. With the advent of sex robots in the not so far future, underpopulation is likelier to be a problem.

[lumos]

@Kinstrome it is a problem though since humans are more or less consuming more than the earth provides. We'll have nothing left. And considering how expensive those sex robots most likely will be, I doubt the average person will want to purchase them. Plus, real human touch will always triumph over fake robotic touch. The ones who will get sex robots are the ones that can afford it + can't get real human touch. I. e. a niche group, a minority.

[Kinstrome]

@lumos There isn't a real metric for what can be yielded from the planet. We do know that previous anticipations of world overpopulation, from Thomas Malthus in the 19th century and various intellectuals in the 1960s, did not end up taking place when they were predicted to take place. The year 2000, for instance, when people believed that the world would be starving from lack of food, ended up being far better than the 1960s in terms of global food supply.

Part of the problem is that people conceive of the world of the future in terms of the present. However, this is a dangerous road. We live in a day and age when the sum total of human knowledge more than doubles every decade. Technology is continually evolving to meet the demands of population, as it has even in primitive ages, when people would cooperate to live in smaller areas than they would have if they were uncivilized (The holding capacity of hunter-gatherers on Earth was around 100 million; we have ~7.2 billion now).

[SirenDep]

The main problem isn't the overpopulation, but the fact that people are consumes and buy more stuff than they actually need, resulting in heavier use of natural resourses and more garbage to dispose of

[Tula1]

Kinstrome, you are amazing. I could marry you. Spot on and on and on all subjects.

[Mistnigqa808]

"Can We Stop Telling Women What to Do With Their Bodies" cool. now will society stop trying to tell us as men what to do with our WALLETS? Since even though we didn't want a baby guess what? Child supports wants us and it will get us for every penny that we own 98% of the time -_-.

I mean even if she TRAPPED you... you're still going to have to pay that child support, right? See how fucked up that is?

So basically we as men get no say in the matter LOL

i1127.photobucket.com/.../ezgif.com-add-text.gif

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Exactly lol, so if you two break up and she doesn't get an abortion then she is essentially screwing you over

[Mistnigqa808]

HAHHAHAHAHA sad but motherfucking true >_<

[OrdinaryGentleman]

You know what'd be worse? If she was having your baby... turned lesbian then required you to still pay.

[Mistnigqa808]

HAHAHAHAHA that's some fucked up shit + great food for thought >_<

[DuckDodgers24th]

LOL this guy lol. You're so right. It's not the man's choice to keep the baby or not, but he has to pay for it -______- what kind of fucking bullshit is that fam?

[Mistnigqa808]

@DuckDodgers24th Aye same thing I say + we should be able to get some say so in this whole ordeal, right? But nope once she gets PREGO that's it...

[jormungand]

I won't tell women what to do unless they ask my advice. And my opinion on this later is, unless you were forced into it (e. g. rape or making holes in the condom). Don't abort the baby/fetus. You can debate all you want, but it is a life in progress. And most likely, you'll regret cutting it's chance on life. You took the risk, and it may not be convenient, unexpected or unwanted but you have to take responsibility for your choices. If you truly aren't prepared or can't give the baby a good life, or you absolutely don't want it, there's always adoption.

[jormungand]

Also I'm not going to point my finger at them or blame them for making a choice that was not mine to make, if I don't agree with their decision

[OrdinaryGentleman]

That is true, adoption is an alternative, however being in foster care is hell.

[ObscuredBeyond]

The body inside your body is not your body. If this were pre-Civil War Georgia, you'd be telling me to stop telling plantation owners what to do with their own plantations. It's that same "logic."

And the difference is this: if I give someone my organs, a separate life from my own isn't being extinguished. A soul isn't destroyed. When you kill a baby, you kill a baby.

Moreover, you're forcing a baby to die so a mother can lead a life of convenience. The "to protect the mother" argument is horsehockey, because women are rarely ever in danger of death-by-childbirth. And modern medicine can 99.999% of the time save both lives.

Abortion is a wrong choice, and a wrong. It is a completely unnecessary evil. It is a decision many women are manipulated into making, and nearly always they rightfully regret the decision. (I exclude feminazis from that equation, as they're too demon-possessed to feel remorse.)

And the "paying bills' part - you place a price on the life of a child?

[OrdinaryGentleman]

To add to your point abortion should remain legalized because it is an entirely necessary in todays society.

[RationalMale]

We can't tell people what to do with their own bodies?

Is that why people who attempt suicide in many states are involuntarily committed to a psych ward for a time period? Why we regulate who can buy cigarettes and alcohol? Why the FDA regulates what drugs and medicines Americans can use?

Fathers, and men who courts "declare" are fathers despite DNA testing showing otherwise are given the option, "Go labor and give her the fruits of your labor, or we will imprison you." And that is despite the Constitution *explicitly* forbidding debtor's prisons in the USA.

Abortion is evil, we agree on that. But it is not a necessary evil anymore than legalized rape would be a "necessary evil."

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Funny because if a girl is raped yet cannot have an abortion guess its not evil to make her suffer and have the baby.

[RationalMale]

you have to resort to a strawman, because your position is not backed up by reason or logic.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Just pointing out a flaw, also the last part makes no sense... so not a straw man argument since there is data you yourself can research on your own time, about denying basic human rights to an individual based upon your misguided views of self righteousness so if you would answer instead of even attempting to define by your logic of my comment a "straw man argument", that would be great. If you are not for it than simply say that you are against rape and you want to deny a human right.

[RationalMale]

For starters, I would dare say that the majority of people who favor banning abortion are in favor of exceptions for rape and incest. Also, no study has ever put the amount of abortions performed due to rape/incest at over 5%. A 1987 survey by the Alan Guttmacher Institute asking 1900 women the reasons for their abortion only had 1% quote rape or incest.

And about abortion, I'd say that yes, if a woman isn't pregnant from rape/incest, and doctors are not saying she's likely to die from the pregnancy, should have to be a responsible adult, carry the child to term, and she can have it adopted.

Men routinely face laws that make it so they can find out their "child" is not actually theirs, yet they still have to pay child support, or face prison.

How is it unjust that we hold women to a similar standard of responsibility? We say men are deadbeats if they don't want involvement or to support a child... yet a woman can kill the child and be a proud citizen?

[RationalMale]

Whatever happened to equal protection under the law?

Can we just restate this for a moment, to grasp the full insanity?

A man has to pay child support for any child he fathers (or in some cases, is deceived into thinking he fathered it) or he will be imprisoned. A man who does not want any involvement is a "deadbeat dad." People say "don't have sex if you're not ready to be a father!" Even in cases of statuary rape, the father still has to pay his rapist!

A woman who is irresponsible, gets pregnant, can literally pay to have the child killed and disposed of... and she is a good citizen.

You want to talk about society and rights again? Let's start by addressing this.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

How is it unjust that we hold women to a similar standard of responsibility? We say men are deadbeats if they don't want involvement or to support a child... yet a woman can kill the child and be a proud citizen?
-It is not just, however we must understand that women and men are different in their own respects. Being a proud citizen and not allowing a baby to interject into a life where you are unable to take care of it are two entirely different scenarios. To get down to brass tax, sometimes women simply cannot and do not want a child at certain points in their lives. A main circumstance where people often run into trouble with the whole aspect is that instead of ending a life we must put it up for adoption at the very least. Truth be told though great, the foster care system and adoption system has massive flaws often putting the kids into worse situations than they were already in... I worked as an assistent at one of these agencies for a number of years. Conditions were poor.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Something a lot of people do not want to admit is that the population must be controlled.
Now as for the comparison between men and women there is a massive social injustice that men must hurdle that women have over them. That is child support, monetary gain through divorce etc... that is a massive thing that we as men must understand and cope with. We may not be able to stop a girl from doing something like this but prevention is key from getting into that situation. For instance simply be more careful when you date a girl... stay a friend longer in the beginning so you can judge her for who she is.

Now a girl or woman can have a child disposed of simply because that fetus is feeding off of them. If the woman wasn't in the situation and it was simply a test-tube baby then it would render it abhorrent to destroy it. But simply because there is something growing that is not alive yet...(cannot breath, cannot eat, low neural function)... does not suddenly have rights over an already----

[OrdinaryGentleman]

fully functioning individual. That is what a lot of people forget is that women are not brood mares... treating them like that does not assist anyone or even us as a species moving forward

[RationalMale]

So now it's not "human rights" it's "population control" and men have to just "deal with it."

That's worked out awesome for the Euros. They listened, they majorly cut back how many kids they had... and now their governments are letting in hundreds of thousands of Arabs and Africans to bolster the population.

That is, their own governments are bringing in arabs to replace the kids they told their citizens not to have!

[skykidx1]

1. Yes you are killing something 2. It's called birth control 3. Any brother would give his life up for his sister 4. No one is forcing women not to have one we are just gotta play for something we don't belive it with tax players $$$ we are barely getting by as it us. 6. You in fact should think before u speak yea at first it's not alone but as time go's by it becomes a living thing. 7. I do feel bad for any women who has too make this choice bu t you can't force us too pay for this. What's next? Forcing a cure on all gays? Stop trying to force abortion on us. And abortion is 100x different and if you don't know the difference then don't speak about it.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Then, by your logic you should not speak either.

[skykidx1]

Lol you seen I fixed my opinion after watching your video did u read that one?

[Lolomon]

As a woman
Who tell us what to do with our body? Abortion is legal not illegal. Plus women choose to have unprotected sex, it's a choice. Modern days birth control is available for free at clinics , condoms are available at schools, clinics and they are affordable depending on the brand. Your example for an organ an aborting a pregnancy is ridiculous. I'm pro choice buy your argument needs to make sense.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Bawhahaha thanks for proving my point oh and by the way GOP republicans have been trying to make it illegal again... that is why this came up. But maybe we should just keep abortion legal for you.

[TheDevilInside]

Both choosing to not give your sister a life saving organ and to abort may not be illegal (yet) but it is still and always will be the jerk move if you do it for selfish reasons like because you can do anything to your own body.

I think if abortion should ever be legalized, there should be a psychological test and history test preceeding the procedure. If the reason is because a a financially poor girl has been raped, or if the baby might have serious defects, then it might be OK to go ahead. If the reason is "I got drunk at a sorority party and I'm not ready to be a mom yet. I still have my life ahead of me and a child would just be a burden", or " i worked so hard on a fit body and being pregnant would totally ruin it.", then maybe they should be forced to be pregnant for 9 months, just to teach them a lesson to not take it so lightly and be so stupid next time.

Abortion is not just about your own body anymore. It's also about the fetus' body.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

But that fetus is connected to your body. Your life is more important than its. So you want to hurt young girls as well as potentially put their life in danger, because they did something stupid? If i am not wrong isn't pregnancy incredibly painful, can cause death or permanent damage and you think that is ok?

[TheDevilInside]

The human body is made for it. Otherwise how could the world population reach this much if it's that dangerus? We don't live in the stone age anymore. There are some decent birth care.

And why is my life more important to another human's life? What makes me a special little snowflake?

And it's not like abortion is risk free and danger free...

[OrdinaryGentleman]

So just because we don't live in the stone age you want to make young girls suffer because they did something stupid? What makes you so special is that you are living and breathing, you can go on and live your life while that fetus may die at childbirth or younger, the reason being is that you are more evolved than him in this world. It isn't about you being a special snowflake it is about, ensuring that you live a full and happy life... on your terms... so if your terms are to keep a fetus and nurture it into a child then be my guess, however your way is not everyones choice.

[TheDevilInside]

Young girls need to learn that people have to should er the consequences of their mistakes. If they shoplift, they go to jail. If they burn someone's house out of spite, they lose their freedom. Same thing. If they do something stupid, there are consequences they would have to bear. Especially if they're the types that likes to wiggle their ways out of talking the consequences of their wrongdoigs by killing a fetus. Those kinds especially need to be forced into doing this.

Besides, what do you have to say about the dangers of abortion if you're so concerned about the dangers of pregnancy, something that is natural for a human body to endure? Whereas abortion is anything but natural

[Intraluminal]

You're right about it being, "the jerk move." I like that. The problem is, as the poster about notes, that even corpses are given the dignity of deciding what happens to their bodies. Even though each corpse could save three or four people (the heart, the lungs, the liver after it's cut into lobes, the kidneys) and give vision to two or three more people, and advance medical school training that is desperately short of cadavers for training)

Even though each CORPSE could save all those lives, the law says, "NO. the corpse has the right to its body." the anti-abortionists would deny that right to women even though the women are still ALIVE. They are given lfewer rights than dead people!

[TheDevilInside]

What about the right of the tiny human, @Intraluminal?
Does your Name have anything to do with luminol?

[Intraluminal]

That's the POINT of what I just said! Even the LIVES of FOUR people do NOT outweigh the right of a CORPSE to its body. Why should the right of ONE not-yet-human outweigh the rights of a LIVING person?

No, my username has nothing to do with luminol.

[TheDevilInside]

@Intraluminal but i See fetuses as humans. Do you not see seeds as plants?

Also, why would you rob a human of it's potential life, just because the mother is too stupid and spoiled to shoulder the consequences of what she stupidly did? It's just for 9 months. You would rather rob an entire 70-80 years of life from an innocent human, than to make some dumb girl take her punishment for her stupidity for 9 months?

Just like what I said. You shoplift, you go to jail. You create a life, you bring it to earth. Pregnancy is your jail.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Plants kill off their offspring all the time so that they can survive. Pregnancy is not jail, it is only if you make it. If you meant to have the child it isn't jail... but you are seriously going to rob someone of 20 years because they screwed up once? Oh yes, you must raise a child, feed, clothe, pay for... some mothers are not cut out to do that.

[Intraluminal]

Wow!
Pregnancy is your jail... Pregnancy is your jail... Pregnancy is your jail... Pregnancy is your jail... Pregnancy is your jail... Pregnancy is your jail... Pregnancy is your jail... Pregnancy is your jail... Pregnancy is your jail...

I love it! You've convinced me. Seeds ARE plants!!! Seeds ARE plants!!! Seeds ARE plants!!! Seeds ARE plants!!!

I'm gonna go downstairs and eat a banana seed - I mean PLANT right now.

[TheDevilInside]

I never said you have to actually raise the baby. It's probably even better if the baby is not raised by such stupid parents. I only said stupid girls should be punished by having to carry out the pregnancy to its full term. Give it up afterwards. Let the pregnancy be like jail time for them. I never said pregnancy is like jail for women who actually want it. You're talking what I said out of context and that's not a good way to debate

[TheDevilInside]

@Intraluminal your sarcasm is very amusing... NOT! I get it, we have different principles, so let's spare us grief and agree to disagree. Bye.

Asker, also, are we plants? Why did you use that analogy then? And it's not like killing the babies would always save the mothers' lives... If you give birth in the rainforest, maybe your death risk is higher. But in a clean sanitized hospital with professionals assisting? Lol

Also, you still haven't addressed my question about the risks of abortion. Life threatening bleedings can happen too during abortions you know? Not to mention mental illnesses in the following months or years due to guilt and regret... Talk about killing the young for survival...

Birthing is natural. Abortion is forced. Guess which is better for the human body.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

I suppose I understand where you are coming from... I was simply under the assumption that the girl would have to take care of him... I don't see how this benefits anyone... the adoption and foster-care agencies are overflowing with unwanted children. Teens just don't stop at one, when a girl has a child they don't just stop, a certain hormone is released that makes them forget the pain of childbirth. That is beside the fact however, when you say punishment it comes off as an almost brutal medieval torture, we as a society are far past those times and we are progressing to a state where both sides may be debated to a point of understanding instead of bickering over who's ego is bigger... not saying you just an observation.

[Intraluminal]

Again. It's NOT about risk. It's about the woman's right to her BODY. The same right a CORPSE has. NOTHING to do with RISK!

[TheDevilInside]

@Intraluminal. We have different principles and I don't think discussing it further is going to benefit anyone. I don't want to have to block anyone so pls respect it when I say I don't wish to discuss this further. A discussion that would not lead to nowhere good anyway

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Wait I am confused... me?

[TheDevilInside]

Children put up for adoption is indeed a problem. But is giving young girls the easier way out of pregnancies really the better thing to do? They should realise that creating a human life is not a laughing matter. It's not like trying to bake a cake where if you make a mistake, you throw it away and start over. Human lives should matter. Indeed, it should matter more than a person's rights to their bodies for some months. A person's whole life and future should never be easily thrown away over a person's rights to their own bodies for 9 months.

If people think they are old enough and mature enough to have sex, then they should be taken as old enough to deal with pregnancy.

You may not want to call it punishment, but they still need to learn that everything they do has a consequence and they can't run away from it. And they have responsibilities. You created a life, you now have a responsibility to bring it to earth.

[TheDevilInside]

Still don't want to talk about the risks and dangers of abortion, huh?

[OrdinaryGentleman]

I don't believe at any point that humanity will get to the point of where abortion is a laughing matter. In hawaii where i grew up children as young as 11 were having children... at that age they go along with whatever the 21 year old says. Its the parents job to come up with a punishment but to cause them issues over it and prolong the process when they are clearly shaken up in the process, I am saying is that the person there first has a right to be ahead of the person coming next.

[TheDevilInside]

I'd say the longer suffering comes first. Ripping someone's right of a life and future (which could be 80+years) is definitely more important than someone's rights to doing what they want to their own bodies for less than a year.

Why won't you talk about the dangers of abortion to the mother? You were so stubborn on talking about the dangers of birthing for the mother lol it's laughable how you just ignore this topic completely now.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Hmm well I guess I was going with the flow of what you were saying, but I can still talk about the problems more which I have already graced over. Pretty redundant if you ask me for me to say the same thing again about... I don't think I avoided it on purpose? but you say laughable? I thought you were trying to keep this a mature and honest debate, you made that pretty clear with the other guy.

But thats the thing, the fetus is not a child nor even a fully developed human being. To say that you are taking a life away or perhaps even hurting it cannot be possible since it is bound to a host. Without that host it dies, the host may go on living however, living a healthy life. If life is not made of your own choices then why would consider it life? There will always be good and bad people no matter where you turn, but just because they make a choice without you fully understanding their situation does not give me, you or anyone the right to tell them otherwise.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

I am ending it here since I feel what may be said after this is pointless, thanks for making me think however:]

[TheDevilInside]

I just cannot understand why you were so adamant on convincing me that birthing is dangerous, but as soon as I talked about the dangers of abortion, you stop saying anything about life threatening situations. So it seemed like you avoided it on purpose. Especially when I asked in every comment why you still don't talk about it.

I see it differently. While a fetus might still be a clump of cells, it is a human being for me because it has human DNA and has the ability to develop into a full functioning human being with conscience and all. Taking away its chance to develop is the same as taking away the human being's life.

Also, I wasn't talking about single individuals. II was talking about a society where many young girls (or even adults) get pregnant wimply out of stupidity and then wanted to be given "the choice". I don:t think we should provide them with an easy way out for doing a reckless thing. Like i said, they need to learn

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Agree to disagree then.

[CapricornSwagL]

@myTake Owner dude... you (the other guy) are awesome! I'm sorry. It's just soooo good to know guys like you at least exist. You're future gf/gf/wife/future wife is very lucky

[CapricornSwagL]

*and*

[CapricornSwagL]

Whoops, meant @OrdinaryGentleman

[DuckDodgers24th]

Well I don't believe people should be forced to give their organs and sometimes it's not a jerk move. I feel it's logical, because in some hospitals if they know you're an organ donor and you're on the edge of death (though it is possible you can recover) they'll "cut the plug" so to speak earlier so they can harvest your organs.

[CapricornSwagL]

@DuckDodgers24th I agree with that statement

[CapricornSwagL]

I have lots of respect for you. Thank you for being so open minded.

Sexist people make me sick

[takumii]

Just because they don't support abortion doesn't make them sexist.

[CapricornSwagL]

@takumii It's apart of women rights so to me it does

[takumii]

Rights has nothing to do with it, it's the intention, sexism is irrational bias towards a particular sex. And if you think, they oppose abortion because you are woman, you are wrong. They oppose abortion because a life is being killed.

[CapricornSwagL]

@takumii Well I don't believe that. If you're against abortion, you're against women rights. You think women shouldn't have the right over our bodies which is sick because it's OUR bodies. I wouldn't dare judge a woman that gets an abortion because I am not living her life. Women can die from giving birth, mess up our bodies, and LOTS more. If we dont wonna deal with that, who are men that can't even give life to tell us what we can't do with OUR bodies. I'll never get an abortion (never had sex before but when I start, I'm gonna be safe) but what about those little girls that raped at 14 years old, or freshman girls that aren't taught to be safe, or those girls dealing with depression that gave up on life, or that one girl that was raped and grew up believing sex is the only way to get love? I refuse to judge those girls. You can though, you're a man and don't have to worry about giving birth. I wish men can give birth to SEE

[takumii]

Zzz please read my opinion comment on ThisDudeHere's opinion, I support abortion, but not supporting abortion doesn't make people racist. The main point is , please refer to the definition of sexism before using that word.

[CapricornSwagL]

@takumii It doesn't matter. To me it's sexist. Agree or not, that's fine

[takumii]

See that's the problem, You don't even know what the word actually means and you just tag it on people like donkey tails. "It doesn't matter. To me it's sexist" Now that is a pretty ignorant approach.

[CapricornSwagL]

@takumii Please dude. I know what sexist means. Sexist people doesn't support women rights (as I been stated)

[takumii]

I'll just drop this by, "Sexism means discrimination against people because of their sex: anything unfair to males or females, because they're males or females, is an example of sexism. Sexism is one of those things that has always existed, and probably always will exist, but does seem to get a little better with time."

And get out of here asap, because my father always told me "Never argue with a person who is incapable of understanding your point."

[CapricornSwagL]

@takumii I never said sexism doesn't mean that but everybody knows a sexist person doesn't support women rights smh

[takumii]

-__-

If sexists don't support women rights doesn't mean that people who don't support women rights are sexists.

If that's too difficult to understand for your brain,

Every Mango is a fruit , doesn't mean that every fruit is a mango.

[CapricornSwagL]

@takumii Omg lol dude stop trying to turn things around to make me seem like I don't know anything. The point of this was to let people know that trying to control women bodies is wrong. People that's trying to control women bodies are trying to take away our rights and if you're TRYING to do that OBVIOUSLY you do not believe we should have those rights. You can make it sound different all you want. Gosh how did it get from me stating how I have respect for the OP to you

[OrdinaryGentleman]

#OP-Swager

[jormungand]

Lol, your ignorance is hilarious 😧😂😫

[CapricornSwagL]

@jormungand Great another one lol smh. I could careless. While you're calling me ignorant, I'm in class making As for something that matter... like my major. You know😑

[CapricornSwagL]

*MATTERS*

[BaileyisDarcy]

@CapricornSwagL
While I kind of agree with your point.
You are pretty ignorant. It isn't sexist to be pro-life. It's simply being pro-life.
Yes they aren't paying the mind to the mothers right to her own body as they should be but pro-life people don't see that as the point. To them, pregnancy has nothing to do with the mother. It has to do with the life the mother is carrying and be damned what she thinks of it.
That's not sexist. If pro-life people were as such because they believed it was the woman's duty to how birth and nothing else. Then yes. That would be considered sexist. But that isn't their point.

Pro-life people are not sexist. They simply value the life of a fetus (which technically has as much life in it as your appendix) over that of a human being who has more to live for.

[CapricornSwagL]

@BaileyisDarcy Well how about this, take the fetus out of the mom then let it grow in a tube. It NEEDS her and because it needs her, will take all everything from her, could possible destroy her, she has a right. I don't care about sickos only caring about what's inside the mother. It doesn't matter what they see as the point. They still don't care about HER rights which is pretty sad since it's not like it can survive without her. Without her, it's nothing. Agree, dont agree I don't care. Since they believe the woman's rights doesn't matter when it's HER body they have problems

[CapricornSwagL]

The issue is whether or not a woman has control over her own body. You are against that, obviously. Guess what? Maybe women should lobby to have control over men and their bodies and wait to have a good laugh at the uproar that would ensue... by your unenlightened peers.

[CapricornSwagL]

In case people don't know ---->A fertilized egg is NOT an individual. It is a blastocyst and it has a high probability of being expelled from a woman's body (40% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, most before a woman even knows she is pregnant). People who insist on "personhood" for a fertilized egg are the ones who are fools. These, by the way, are the same ones who support cuts for food stamps, WIC, housing and energy assistance, maternal care, and Head Start. You know, the things that help living, breathing people.

[CapricornSwagL]

OH and because I am talking about those government assistance things doesn't mean I need them. I simply care about the living. Maybe y'all should do research on the thinking of people that don't support abortion (there were other simple questions they answered that was SEXIST btw). MAY not apply to y'all but I'm sure most anti abortion people are sexist

[jormungand]

I never said i didn't agree with your opinion about abortion. But is has literally nothing to do with sexism. But yh, u cqn't convince you and i won't. Have. Nice day in class, and i'm alao in university by the way (industrial engineering)

[CapricornSwagL]

@jormungand Ok but just so you now sexism means you're against women. OK I'll stop now I just feel really passionate about stuff like this since I am a woman and it's a woman's issue (never had a abortion before and never will) but still.

[CapricornSwagL]

@jormungand Sowwy I over it, Interesting major. I am majoring in Child Psychology

[jormungand]

Haha, yh. I wouldn't have the patience to deal with kids every day. I'm glad there are people like you in this world. But i find human psychology very interesting though. (and sexism goes both ways, not only against women)

[CapricornSwagL]

@jormungand I totally agree, sexism does go both ways. I am not a sexist. I treat everyone with respect unless they're sexist or racist.

Yes I love kids. They are sooo darn cute. I hate the fact that kids are going through terrible things in their homes. I wonna help them. That child didn't ask to be here so I wonna possibly put abusive parents behind bars where they belong. Its really sad. All these unwanted kids end up in foster care and the government do not care for them after they're born. Some are living great lives (which they deserve) but what about those kids that no one wanted to adopt or adopt them and abused them? They're raped, it's truly disgusting. When I help a kid get out of a bad home I'm gonna help them, not drop them off in foster care. That's just bad. Kids are my passion in a non creepy way. I generally would love to help them all if I could.

[CapricornSwagL]

@jormungand Thinking about this makes me think of trafficking. Poor babies, children, women, and men smh. I really wonna do something bigger than Child Psychology though. Need LOTS of money though :(

[jormungand]

Yh i agree. I don't want potential good people to be turned evil like Agent Grant Ward from Marvel's Agents of S. H. I. E. L. D hahaha

[CapricornSwagL]

@jormungand Never seen that show/movie before but if it's what you say it is, I don't either

[jormungand]

It's a good show, you should watch it. First +- 5 episodes are kinda boring after that it get real good

[CapricornSwagL]

@jormungand Hm ok. Guess I'll check it out. Is it on Netflix?

[jormungand]

yep, season 3 starts tomorrow

[CapricornSwagL]

@jormungand Thanks dude

[jormungand]

No problem! I wonder why we are having such an off topic convo? hahaha

[CapricornSwagL]

@jormungand Well lol.. I kinda like having the last word. I'm stubborn like that but in a good way

[CapricornSwagL]

@jormungand But yeah, agreed

[jormungand]

I see, challenge accepted! 😏

[CapricornSwagL]

@jormungand Lol wow! Ok. Lets be childish away!! :)

[CapricornSwagL]

@jormungand 😜

[jormungand]

this could go on for years really hahaha

[CapricornSwagL]

@jormungand I'm up for the challenge lol. I really hate how prideful I am tbh but it's my personality

[jormungand]

I'm not that prideful, but I can't neglect a challenge.

[jormungand]

I'll be back tomorrow, got a long day at uni tomorrow, 8:15 am - 6:15 pm, damn 10 hrs, pure torture!

[CapricornSwagL]

@jormungand Lol ok. That's fine. This seems like a joke tbh haha. And wow. I feel you. College is torture

[OrdinaryGentleman]

... can you guys like message each other? . its sweet that you two are having a fun time flirting but please PM each other. @jormungand

[jormungand]

sorry OP

[OrdinaryGentleman]

@jormungand Not a problem ladies and gents:]

[CapricornSwagL]

Sooooo sowwy about the messaging but we are not flirting. I am not being rude whatsoever

[OrdinaryGentleman]

I never said you were rude, but it is rude to keep messaging on a post for any of the older gagers just letting you know that people will get irritated.

[CapricornSwagL]

No. I was talking about disagreeing with you about the flirting. Somehow people think to disagree with someone and tell is rude. Well at least the people I dealt with on GAG

[CapricornSwagL]

Not like I knew they were getting irritated, that's why people are supposed to tell people so they can know. If I was told, I wouldve been stopped and apologized. Dont see how its rude to have a nice conversation with someone if people dont say how I'm irritating them :/

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Thats fine, I said to stop. Because it shows up in someones feed, I came on and had over 20 notifications coming from you two and someone else all in your comment thread. Its fine to have a conversation about another topic but carry it on in your Private messages, if you don't do what the OP asks politely then they will most likely block you so you cannot posts any more comments or talk to him.

[CapricornSwagL]

And I get that-_-. My POINT was no one said anything. Yes the notifications pop up but I am not sure if I was annoying people, that's why telling ME will let me KNOW. I can't read minds. I need a person to let me know

"Hey Capricorn girl (or whatever as long as it isn't rude). Can you pm the person because I am honestly irritated by getting all these notifications. I'm not being rude. I'm sure you understand"

That wouldve been just fine

[OrdinaryGentleman]

I did, why do I need to know this? No one is out to get you, and if they didn't then thats their problem/

[CapricornSwagL]

I get that and my apologies that I keep replying but you said we was flirting, it went from that to this

[OrdinaryGentleman]

It was a joke I don't know you nor him so how can I know you two were flirting.

[CapricornSwagL]

Didn't know you was joking. I thought you was being sarcastic..., I don't know why

[Mustachekitteh]

I agree 100%

Saying people are horrible for getting an abortion at all. You might as well say nature is cruel and horrible as well. Since wild animals do kill their own babies. Though they do it so they have a better chance of creating better life. So sometimes they have to do to create a better life. Killing something is sad no matter what the case maybe. In reality you can't have your cake and eat it to at times.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Mustache to the rescue!

[Transigence]

Perhaps not, but what we can do is make women responsible for their choices. I personally find it despicable that women have all the freedom to fuck around all they want and nobody will ever force her to be responsible for the outcome of that choice, but they WILL hold the man responsible for that choice, to the point of throwing him in jail if he doesn't comply.

Abortion might be a choice and a freedom, but it's not a right. If you can get one on the free market, that's your choice. But if you can't afford one, then nobody is obligated to give you one.

[BaileyisDarcy]

Actually. If you can't afford an abortion hen there's no way you can afford the baby. How is that any improvement?

[Transigence]

@BaileyisDarcy How is what an improvement? If you cannot afford to raise your child, then you need to give it up for adoption or abandonment. Then you need to pay child support into that system or go to jail -- just like we do to men.

[Anonymous]

I am personally pro life, but do not believe the law can dictate people's bodily choices. However, I do not believe all choices are moral and good. The difference between legality and morality is wide. I would never reject someone for poor decisions; I've made many myself. But I don't condone or endorse them as "options" rather than "errors."

Gluttony, greed, rage, selfishness, etc all fall into this legal, but morally lacking area to me. We all have places we struggle. That doesn't mean we should simply accept poor actions on a personal level.

[COCOCHANEL]

in my opinion it's about morals.
people shouldn't have to be forced to save the lives of those who are depending on them to survive. it shouldn't be forced, people should have a heart.

[cipher42]

When the "those" in question can't feel pain, the autonomy of the person by far overrules any right the "those" have to survive off of them.

[COCOCHANEL]

@cipher42 how kind of you to speak for those who have no voice (yet). i'm sure
they appreciate it.

[cipher42]

No voice? They don't have a damn mind. Of course they don't appreciate it, they can't think. Are you going to start telling me to stop using hand sanitizer now because that kills bacteria, and those bacteria are alive? How about exfoliating? Those are human cells with human DNA I'm killing after all.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

You shouldn't use hand sanitizer because it makes germs mutate and become resistant to it.

[COCOCHANEL]

@cipher42 maybe someone should've told your mother to get rid of you because you didn't deserve to be born. you seem to like to express your opinion quite strongly. maybe someone with the same opinion ought to have spoken for you.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

I hear having potatoes in the morning helps keep you energized throughout the day.

[cipher42]

My mother would have deserved her right to bodily autonomy far more than I would have deserved to live. I couldn't think or feel at that point, so my death would have prevented far more suffering than it caused. That's the plain truth.

Look, have an analogy. One person severely injures another, perhaps on accident, perhaps on purpose. The injured person is so badly hurt that they require some sort of organ transplant or blood transfusion to survive. The only person who can give that organ or blood is the person who injured them, and it would be non-fatal for the person who injured them to give that up, though perhaps it would hurt or even severely disable them. Can we force the person who injured the other to give up the organ or blood? Of course not, that would be a huge violation of their bodily autonomy. We can't even take organs from corpses without explicit legal permission from that person during their life.

[cipher42]

Are you really suggesting that we give pregnant people even less right to their own bodies than we give corpses? That we treat clumps of cells with no capacity for sentience as more important than thinking, feeling individuals? Then I'm sorry, but you're a horrible person. Not to mention the fact that actually, banning abortion does nothing to lower abortion rates. In fact, it only puts more people in danger by making abortions much more unsafe. You really want that? You want more people to die? Then I have to say that I very much question how you can even think of yourself as morally upright.

[COCOCHANEL]

@cipher42 i don't think you read what i wrote. not sure what you're replying to.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

@cipher42 I think I am going to have dinner, im hungry, what are you ladies going to have?

[COCOCHANEL]

you're ranting at me like you think i represent all pro-life people you've met.

i don't know any pro-life people, ok?
i don't live in a western country and i haven't for many years. it's not a controversial topic where i live. i don't know what the people in your country who are for or against do/say. do not assume i belong to any group or share ideas with anyone. i don't watch American or european news.
i have my own personal thoughts on the subject based on my upbringing, experiences i've had and how i view the world.

[COCOCHANEL]

blueberries

[OrdinaryGentleman]

@cipher42 what kinda food are you going to have?

[cipher42]

Are you sure? I did actually address what you said very clearly, the thing about "deserving" or not. Then I gave examples to attempt to make clear to you why exactly bodily autonomy is more important than a clump of cells' right to life. What exactly did I say that was irrelevant?

[OrdinaryGentleman]

@cipher42 no you didn't say anything about what you were having for dinner?

[COCOCHANEL]

for one thing look at every single comment i wrote on here and note the usage of the term ”force (d)”. then look at your responses and how you used that term saying that i said that

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Lol she said force the D.
So far @COCOCHANEL is winning this plus she has even answered my question