The Death of Dating

[AmandaYVR]

So I've been pondering this and thinking about writing about it for a while now, and today I came a popular question of @sydneysentinel Do single people even want love anymore? and it reminded me once again that there is still a lot of interest and complicated feelings about #love and #dating today.

Sometimes it feels difficult to sort through all the detritus - everything from frustration and bitterness and dismay, from the lovelorn and heartbroken who already put chips in and cashed out, to the disheartened yet somewhat, somehow, still hopeful who are waiting to buy in again. One thing is clear to me - the desire to be with others, to have connections, to have a deep and meaningful relationship, it still exists. It is so strong in some, while understandably for others they have begun or completed the painful process of detaching themselves from the idea that they will ever find or achieve it. There are also those who want no part of it, think it's too much trouble, and those who want to fulfill their carnal desires and nothing more. But for most, they would like to find love, and if unbridled, blow the roof off passion and excitment is not exactly in the cards, they'd [quite happily] settle for someone who is nice, treats them well, and would be good to curl up at night with, with or without the covers on.

Don't believe me? Well without posting a tonne of links etc., I'll just try and summarize with these two polls of mine: 11% of guys want hookups with no potential relationship. "I'm interested in casual hookups because I want to have a variety of experiences, and am not ready to settle down yet." Guys (single men): what do you want: a relationship, hookups, or nothing right now? Lower than you thought, right? And for the ladies (who are getting judged very harshly these days about this), just 3% want the same Girls, Single ladies: why are you not in a relationship?'

... true love is a powerful thing. I'm anxious because I want to experience intimacy but that does not mean I don't want true love the most. I want a sister, a friend that I can share my life with. Someone that I can talk too and will support me. It's so strong a thing that for perfect relationship like that I'd trade intimacy ,if that's what it takes. - @Jjpayne

First, Let's Define Dating. What Constitutes 'A Date'?

Sardinia Unlimited

They have a legitimate interest in each other.

Both people know they are on a date. This is clear and mutually understood.

Both parties make a genuine attempt to get to know one another.

Other people are not involved. They are not part of a group, designed to "take the pressure off."

There is adequate, uninterrupted, focused time for conversation.

Alcohol is not necessary to the outcome or success.

Physical interaction may be desired but sex is not the expected outcome.

Hookup Culture

I think there's been a misunderstanding or perhaps a mislabelling of the term #hookupculture Some say it's a media-created phrase designed to get clicks, hook eyes, and sell ads. Some say it's always been here, nothing's changed, but it now it has a catchy title. Others say it's a rampant disease, degrading and eroding the fabric of society. Others bring politics and lack of traditional values into the mix. And those in the sociology realm call it a #socialscript. I propose that this phrase has supplanted the term 'dating', but unlike many words which I criticize for being bastardized, I don't feel that way about this because at least it hasn't warped an existing definition. 'Hookup culture' is attempting to delineate a sea change in the dating world where there are no commitments being made (chosen), and instead casual flings of a sexual nature have taken their place. But what I'd like to say is that while dating may be all but dead, sex (intercourse) amongst strangers is not the norm. It is not just simple hedonism run amok. I believe in order to find the right answers, you must ask the right questions. Just because some people are having casual sex doesn't mean that that is what they really, ultimately want. And I think there needs to be a differentiation, a delineation, between "for now" and what the end goal is, the true desire is.

What Is 'Hookup Culture' Then?

It's no commitment. It's a refusal to define the nature of the relationship. It's a byproduct of an anxious, insecure culture. It's a perfect yet contorted example of supply and demand. It's women's liberation and a demand for sexual equality. Yet which likely leaves all, not just one sex, feeling ultimately lonely and unknown.

I feel lonely. I feel like no one really knows me. I feel like no one really cares about me. For 24-48 hrs I feel good. I got game. That was great. I could totally do that again. And then the doubt sets in...the person didn’t text me. The person hooked up with a bunch of other people too? I saw them and they acted as if they didn’t know me. - Kerry Cronin, Professor, Boston College

And this creates feelings of depair. And feelings that they don’t matter. Not just that it didn’t matter, but that they don’t matter. Why, if people want something, something of a higher nature, do they settle for something much less? Maybe because something is better than nothing. Maybe because they want to keep their options open. Maybe because we even though seemingly unlimited choice feels like the ideal scenario, it is stifling the ability to actually make a choice ('the paradox of choice'.) And maybe because they think and hope it will lead to more.

What I believe it is, is not that more people are having sex because that is all they want, but less people are committing to relationships. (Actually amongst the youngest who have just entered the dating world, there is less intercourse, though not all sexuality is lessened, and blow***s are more commonplace; rates of casual sex amongst seniors is up, by contrast; and the in between are having sex, but they are not committing, not getting married nor having children, in typical numbers as in generations past.) Yes, attitudes about sexuality do seem to have loosened and other types of sex and sexuality are being expressed. And yes, some not having relationships is by choice, but some is not for lack of wanting, but for other reasons. And this is where it gets complicated, and the list is long, so I won't attempt to list them here. The whys and how we got here are not as important as what this means for society now.

So in a Nutshell What's the Problem? Why Aren't People 'Dating'?

I think that a lot of people forget how to be loving in a disposable world. - @DanOh2018

Well, for the purposes of this article, I'm not talking about the scenario where somone was dating and it didn't work out and they're reluctant to dip their toe in again (they feel they gave it their best, but the other person just didn't treat them well, accept them for who they are, etc. etc.) I'm speaking now about those who won't even begin, don't even try to get to know the other person. They won't engage, or they objectify. And why is that? Well for starters, fear. Fear of being hurt. Fear of judgement. Fear of rejection. Fear of making desires known. Fear of appearing needy, or wanting anything at all. Some men are now also paralyzed by the idea of a false claim of harrassment. But to a lesser degree and more widely experienced is the fear of being thought of as 'stalkery' (that's equally by both men and women.) But by making the entire venture more casual, "taking the pressure" off the other person and off oneself, it also takes away the fulfillment of getting what you want, and limits the possibility of a greater, deeper connection. Also, if you don't first take the time to really get to know them, you probably don't even know whether you want the other person. First you have to put in the time to listen and to hear. And to know another person is to spend time with them which is [perhaps later but not at first] not primarily, or first and foremost, sexual.

Now you're saying, "But I've met someone I was interested, but it didn't go anywhere." And then, "They were not interested", "I don't know what happened... they just ghosted me", or "I have let them know how I feel about them but they won't commit to me or apparently any relationship right now". Right. All possible scenarios. And why is that? Maybe (see the womens' poll for the myriad of reasons), because they won't even give it a chance. Why? Because they can't imagine it working. Why? Because they won't even get to the dating stage, where they really get to know a person. Because of intolerance. Because we judge too harshly, too quicky, and without enough compassion or acceptance. We have a become a highly individualistic, particular, on-demand society who seems to expect luck or fate to send us, to serve up, a perfect partner who is just 'right'. But has luck or fate or desire changed? No. There isn't "one person" but there are people. "But how do I know?" You don't. Take some risks, make a choice, decide, commit, and go for it. And then compromise, compromise, compromise. And have some fun.

And then there is technology. Technology has brought people together from around the globe, but it has simultaneously created a wall, a way to protect and insulate oneself from rejection, from criticism, or lack of acceptance. We create identities, personas, which may or may not falsify the truth of who we are. We both oversell and undersell. The internet and social media has create a mecca for affirmation... and judgement and criticism, an eden and a cesspool. At best, it is a small sliver of who we are, a best attempt at conveying our complexity and a complete picture. At worst, it is a highly contorted, exaggerated and more appealing, carefully curated version of self. This insulation means that we question whether we are truly known (answer: we are not.) And the only way to be truly loved, is to be fully known. So we feel empty, lonely, and sometimes even unloveable.

Making it clear that you're on a date, you’re saying oh I like this person. Judge me for that, and that can be scary for a lot of people. - The Dating Project

I don't think everyone should permanently pair up, and I don'tt think marriage is always the answer. But I do believe that chasing emptiness or loneliness through seemingly meaningless sexual experiences with relative strangers is a road that leads nowhere. In fact, it probably leads to an even darker place inside. And not trying at all, not engaging with others or taking a risk, taking a chance, it also is sad, a hugely missed opportunity. What would I like to see? For people to not hold back so much, for people to treat each other with kindness, interest, and respect, and fully explore each other.

We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity; more than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. - @JimboGB

If it doesn't last, it should not be seen as a failure. Think of it as an exploration, a journey that benefits both people. If you both come to a place of understanding, of knowing each other well enough to conclude that this is the end of the road for the two of you, then so be it. You can find closure in this. You can walk away from this with a clear conscience, hopefully some memories, some laughs, and with more knowledge and understanding of yourself and the world. That should be the goal. Not the $30,000 wedding, or any other milestone or indicator of a 'successful' relationship.

I'd like to give the last word to mk200195 as I think he said it well.

Nobody is really single. We all have a range of relationships with other people. Some of them are closer and more emotionally intimate than others; some may involve living with the person; some may involve sex, sensuality, and pleasure; some may be bound by children, parents, or other obligations; some may revolve around money or ambition or ego; some may be matters of convenience while others are goals in themselves; sometimes they last for a moment, others a lifetime.

Yes, there are scripts for the qualities that ought to characterize “single” people’s relationships and different scripts for what sorts of relationships “unsingle” people ought to have. But really, it’s all meaningless. The only question that matters is whether the relationships you are enmeshed in are satisfying to you. We should all be okay with high quality relationships that lift us up. That’s [what's] worth striving for. - @mk200195

And now, a moment of silence...

[Mezius]

You want to know what's going on? We're going through a gigantic culture shift. It all has to do with modernized society and how we live our lives. Pre 1950s society lived in a more pre modernized mindset. We lived based on the old way of doing things. When there was less knowledge about the world. When people were more religious, and life was deadlier. When people had 8 kids at a time because they were needed to help farm and run society. We knew little about science, and everything was run by an authoritarian religious set of customs and traditions. All social interactions were in person, face to face. You actually had to talk to people and meet them to get to know them. Then everything began to change, both for better and for worse. Technology and materialism took over. People stopped believing in religion and going to church. Everything became industrialized, and we became a competitive "Now!" culture. We stopped embracing the values of the old world and became more selfish and empty. Men and women don't date for love anymore. We date simply to snatch someone up into our lives before we get shuffled into adult life and lose the opportunity. We no longer have to pick from a small dating pool out of a the tiny community we live in. People have a huge variety to choose from. Girls have the ability to pick and choose who they want. Women set the social standards for what is attractive, and what they want, and men either conform to that standard or get left behind. Men throw away their identity and take on a persona because it's the only way to be more desirable. Everyone that's attractive has to compete and be hand picked by the opposite gender, and everyone that's not attractive gets left behind like table scraps. As soon as we meet someone we even remotely like we slap a ring on their finger so we don't get exiled back to competing and struggling to find another partner. Industrialized society has made our lives so busy, empty, and meaningless that we've turn to thrill seeking and instant gratification to fulfill us. The "Now" culture teaches us to jump from one thrill to the next. That food, entertainment, people, and things are all just cheap thrills to be used up and thrown away. The upper class is teaching us to cram as much consumerism and materialism into our lives as possible, because we are taught that's all life has to offer. Our lives have become a giant competition for who can have the most fun the fastest, and people are eating it up because we can't imagine a life more meaningful beyond the next fad, the next drive through visit, the next tinder hookup, the next drug fix. Modern society has turned us into mindless pleasure zombies competing over who gets the best life the quickest. It will stay this way for as long as we want to until we realize there's more to life than the next fucking endorphin rush and throw off the shackles. Either that, or we will party the planet to death, in which case good riddance.

[AmandaYVR]

Very interesting, Mez. I like it! You made several good points I didn't have time to mention for brevity's sake.

Agree with almost everything, except a couple - "Men and women don't date for love anymore." Actually marriages and partnering up were more a pragmatic choice in the past. There were many reasons, which I'm sure you know about (arranged marriages, family obligations to gain and protect status, cultural norms about gender roles, repopulating the planet after war decimated entire countries, etc. etc.), but suffice to say people are actually choosing for purely selfish/self-satisfying reasons more now than ever before. I could argue one positive of today's society is that when you are chosen, there is a greater chance now that it is for non-pragmatic reasons, than in the past (though of course they still exist, and will never disappear unless we magically fast-forward to living in the OG Star Trek series era. Oh Roddenberry, I loved you.)

And "Girls have the ability to pick and choose who they want. Women set the social standards for what is attractive, and what they want, and men either conform to that standard or get left behind. Men throw away their identity and take on a persona because it's the only way to be more desirable." This goes both ways. There is no monopoly on this. Men desire sex more so they initiate and yes, are either accepted or rejected (a definite harshness of life), but women are subsequently discarded if a newer, younger model comes along. The population in North America is about 55% female so at par, and with all this availability, both sides are feeling the standards and pickiness bite them in the ass. The competition is tough and there seems to be little motivation for acceptance, or to change. Yet so many people don't find someone they like and are compatible with. So go figure.

You remind me of George Carlin a bit. I think you clearly see the emperor has no clothes.

[Mezius]

I grew up without parents, and thus studying everything around me and adapting to everything became a key part of my personal growth and development. As I grew older this instinct just became sharper and stronger. I study everything and break it apart much in the way a scientist would because I want to understand how everything works. You work with your advantages. I was never good at socializing, or sports. I learned to think my way out of my problems. If Im interested in something I figure it out.

[AmandaYVR]

That makes perfect sense. I seem to be zoning in on just these types of people on here. I know another guy who was given up for adoption and he has always lived by his wits and reasoning and insatiable curiosity of the world. He describes himself so similar to you. I do see that your ability to analyze is razer sharp and as Cuba Gooding says, "I did that about you!"

[AmandaYVR]

* dig that

[talloak]

Impressive take! You cover so much ground here, that I don't know where to begin. I'll limited myself to some observations about social media. Someone (I forgot who) noted that when "friend" became a verb and "like" became a noun, something very important was lost in human interactions. This quantifies interactions between people to the point where they are no longer really human. People have exchanged human interactions with virtual ones. Interacting through text is like talking to Siri: it looks like an interaction without being one. So many young people have so little experience with human interaction that dating is considered beyond their skills and understanding.

Technology has resulted in a long descent in human interaction. The telephone meant less exposure to body language. Once email became widespread, most emotion was stripped out of communication. This was largely a matter of sharing information, hardly much of an interaction at all. Now with texting, communication has been stripped of almost all meaning. People use this mostly to confirm a status. "I still exist." And it hardly even matters. There really is not much further down, unless our phones start texting each other without our knowledge.

It's fairly disturbing how many young people will not talk to others on the phone (where the interaction is still human) but will immediately respond to a text (where the interaction is with the machine as much as with a potential human on the other side. Given an almost total lack of experience interacting with other humans apart from controlled environments (school, work, outings with friends), is it any surprise that young people would struggle when dealing with a new person outside of a structured environment? How could it be otherwise?

Try this folks: shut off your phone for an entire week (warn people first). Arrange to have face to face interactions with a different person every day (outside of school or work people). Make notes about what you observed in each interaction. At the end of the week compare the human time with the phone time of a previous week. What did you learn? Where do you find that you lack social skills that you didn't even know you lacked? You might be surprised.

[TayTay21]

I think the reason fewer people are committing to relationships is that most people are holding out for someone better. It's gotten to the point that girls and guys both only want to be with the most exceptional members of the other sex. I've seen this from both sides.

When I was growing up, I was extremely skinny and painfully awkward because I didn't feel confidence in myself. Guys ignored me and some even mocked me for the way I looked. At the age of 13, I started going to this personal training studio that my mom and sister went to, and the head trainer took me under her wing and helped me learn how eat properly and weight train. By the time I was 15, suddenly guys were staring at me in class and acting weird around me. The mocking stopped completely, at least from guys. By the time I graduated, I had guys trying to flirt and asking me out constantly. Not to sound conceited, but I had worked hard in the gym for years and had a really fit body that made me feel very attractive.

What got me was that guys who should have been dating girls who were more their speed were wasting time trying to get my attention. They would rather have tried in vain to get my attention rather than pursue girls who they had more of chance of dating. I remember this one boy who was shorter than me who looked like he hadn't even started shaving constantly trying to talk to me and repeatedly asking for my number. He wasn't alone, either. There were other guys who no girl was worried over trying to get with me and just a few other girls in school.

The bottom line is that most guys wanted either the most attractive girls or nothing. And to be fair, I think girls do this too, although I don't think we're quite as bad about it. I think girls are more realistic in some ways about who we have a chance to date. So what happens is that the most desirable people date and form committed relationships, and most other people refrain from dating as much because they aren't getting the types of people they want to date. So they date less and form committed relationships less frequently, mostly because they're holding out for someone better.

[kim45456]

Haha You should have asked that short guy why he even dared to ask you out haha

[TayTay21]

@kim45456 lol I mean, I admired his confidence, but I just didn't get why he thought I would want to date him when he looked more middle school than college.

[FriedPickles1218]

Who are you to decide whos good enough for who? I dont beleive in leagues. Its all completely subjective. Also, people can't help what their attracted to. Just because someones "ugly" doesn't mean their attracted to ugly.

Sure, objectively, people are generally below, average , or above average looking or the 1- 10 scale or whatever. But seriously 8s can be attracted to 5s and vice versa.

[DJZest]

Flawless insight expressed objectively.

It takes hard work to be among the best. And any favorable genetics and talents add to that.

This is why a billionaire can date whomever he wishes; the same for a top model.

On that basis, how much does soul compatibility in intimate relationships add to life in terms of overall happiness? And how much does sexual experience with the own gender add to overall happiness in life? (if applicable)

Your insight would be much appreciated.

[TayTay21]

@DJZest Sexuality is very important to me. That's why I reached a point when I was younger where I decided that I did *not* want to be on the outside looking in, unable to get my needs met. There are guys and girls who started with nothing and are now living out their dreams. Too many people give up on competing before they even try.

I don't have relationships with girls, but I would not trade my experiences with them for anything. Experiences are what life is about. Experiencing closeness and love is most important to me. But there has to be a strong sexual component to it. What some people don't see is that sexual love is not the same as parental love. In sexual relationships, you have to excite the other person somehow. You have to stand out. The worst thing you can do is fade into the background.

[DJZest]

Fading into the background is indeed one of the worst things to do if one is looking to experience the sex life - or anything for that matter.

Of course, not having relationships with girls but numerous intimate encounters builds skill in making each next hook up more intense, more beautiful, more perfect, if you will.

For relationships in general, you naturally learn how to please or excite your loved one.

It follows that experience and knowledge are both paths to gaining higher understanding - in this case a pleasurable aspect concerning relationships and everything else that this entails. Because life is complex and everything is intertwined, growing in one area can have positive effects on other areas.

To what degree overal profitable growth is achieved depends on advances in knowledge and experience in the given, specific area of life, some of which are dead ends. Caution is advised.

[TayTay21]

@DJZest Practice does make things better, including our social lives. I think the problem a lot of guys have is that they get stuck in this loop where they don't have any experience, so they refrain from approaching girls, so they never get sex, so they never have experience, so they're afraid to approach girls until they get experience, and so on. People just need to get out of their own heads and go for it.

I agree that some paths are dead ends. My problem has always been remembering that caution part lol. I've always tended to go wherever I felt was right. But I don't think we ever really know what we want and don't want until we get experience to draw from. I'm terrible at knowing what I really want before I look around at what's available. But I also think people need to focus more on what they think of themselves than what others think of them. Not that they should be narcissistic, just that they should try to make themselves into something that they love and respect. No one can get love until they love and value themselves.

[DJZest]

I disagree with the negative feedback loop concerning experience and sex. Sex, if not cultivated as act of intimacy and expression of intimacy, is not special. Because people are promiscuous beyond any reasonable boundary these days - even doing with their own gender, constantly - any shared positive experience remains remains on a purely physical level. Further, working on one's self just a little bit opens the door to accessing the opposite sex' (or same sex', which may take less effort, see "ugly lesbians") genitals, to put it bluntly.

Care must be taken concerning negative consequences that intimacy with the same gender inevitably causes. This isn't directed at you personally, but anyone who has yet to cross that threshold: It is a cultivating of new, intense desires that are based on extreme physical gratification which heavily hinges on illusory intimacy. These desires never die off and will prevent you from creating a lasting, meaningful relationship with someone of the opposite sex. You might view it from the perspective of "what does she really like?". One of the reason as to why it is illusory intimacy can be found in some statistics for homosexual couples, which reveal significantly more domestic violence, greater alcohol and drug abuse, and lower overall happiness levels, among others. It all points to an utter lack of a real, harmonious, strong, enduring, enriching, energizing and natural connection.

Aside from intimacy, lasting fulfillment, especially for you women, is achieved through marriage and building a family. This, too, is undisputable fact. (You can still be an independent thinker, feminist (a real one), have a career, etc.)

[DJZest]

Fulfillment can also be found in the social life, if you're moving in higher circles. Higher, not in terms of status, but personal culture. Most social ongoings are robotic interactions consisting of small talk, gossip, exchange of opinions on superficial and materialistic concerns mixed with weird, sporadic, mechanical expressions of the subconscious personality, which oftern merely serves to fill gaps of potential silence before it occurs... all of this in public space. Most of this is true for conversations on the internet, too.

You're spot-on working on the self to gain the ability to see one's self in a positive light, which few know is rooted in real, objective, transcendental values. You've come to this conclusion through intuition, which is the first step towards attaining higher wisdom and understanding. Growing through knowledge and love ensures steady and focussed evolution of being and character, awarding the ability to navigate an ever-increasing number of potentially abstract situations with ease and confidence. Until then, trust not in feelings, but in research, deep contemplation and knowledge/experience of other that went before you.

[TayTay21]

@DJZest I'm someone who learns and grows by experience. If something is out there, I'm going to want to do it if it feels natural to me. Sex is a very natural thing to me, and I have been attracted to girls in the past, but I only found out later it wasn't a real sexual attraction. But sex had to be experienced for me. I couldn't make choices about it until I had done it lol. I really didn't know what was right for me until I knew. But I agree with what you're saying. It's not all about gratification. It was to me when I was 15, but now it's about more than that. My thing is that I've never wanted to get stuck in analysis paralysis. I would rather make mistakes doing than wait for something to happen in a limbo state.

[Wowgirl30q]

Great job Ms

[AmandaYVR]

Thanks, Wow.

[Wowgirl30q]

Course love 💛

[coachTanthony]

Hey that was a very good read! I don't really have nothing to add. Just wanted to say nice job!

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you, Coach. It's your kind of topic, isn't it. Wish there was more hours in a day, but I do often check your account and see what you are up to. We definitely do ponder some of the same thoughts...

[JimmyQ]

Too long to read it all. I can understand that you feel overwhelmed and it is good to document your feelings. You really need to look at yourself for answers. No one will be able to help you if you don't first help yourself. You are who you are and there will be no changing that. You have either learned from your past mistakes or you are doomed to repeat them all over again.

My guess is that the class of men you are meeting are not willing and/or able to meet your standards. In truth none of us are by nature lovable. Everything is a trade off. You must give to get. Very often women can't understand this most important ingredient in a relationship. I can't tell you all the useless females I've known who think to themselves and sometimes even say out loud, "I'm beautiful so just fall before me and shake" or something to that effect.

Once you've poured enough honey and money into those empty holes, you finally figure out that they will never be full, and as a guy, I just quit trying.

If I can't clearly see where I'm going to be able to communicate with a woman on a partnership level, without a lot of b/s, I lose interest very quickly.

In other words, the most attractive thing about a woman is her mind. So, blow out the crud and keep it shape.

We still want you as long as you're not a poor choice as a life partner.

[AmandaYVR]

Jimmy, you've come to the wrong conclusions. That is not about me, has nothing to do with me. I'm interested in sociology and this is where this comes from. My experiences have not been this. I dated for about ten years, had several committed relationships, and some fun, and have been married for twenty. It adds up to 28 years of experiences. But times have changed and there is a lot that society needs to figure out before the dust can settle. If anything, I have been generally impressed with "the class of men" I have met and who come into my life, and they have made a more lasting impression on me than the callousness of the internet hive. I believe they both exist, but I'm not going to base all my conclusions about the world on the ostensibly anonymous commenters who I have not nor will never meet. I don't know if they are being entirely truthful, nor what their motivations are. I'm much more interested in provable stats, personal stories, and deeper analysis I get with certain people. All these things combined are where I draw my conclusions from.

"... In other words, the most attractive thing about a woman is her mind." I agree. I have always said the same thing about men.

[JimmyQ]

I love your writing style. Apologies for my misstep.

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you, appreciate it.

[fashionguy17]

Dating is dying out, in my opinion. It's because people are too picky these days and people make a fuss over the small things. Oh, that man has soft voice - UNDATEABLE! Oh, that woman has a small blemish on her arm - UNDATEABLE. This is seriously how superficial dating has become.

Hell, even in my own personal life, I had a girl reject me, because she didn't know I wore glasses and she doesn't want a man who wears glasses and wanted a man with perfect vision. Wtf, right?

I am in a relationship right now... but to be honest, I wouldn't even need a relationship in this day in age. Technology has made it so easy to make hookup and brief affection more accessible.

Horny and in the mood? There are tons of porn sites everywhere.

Need a quickie? There are women on snapchat who are selling pussy and meetups for $50 an hour (I'm being serious, btw).

Feeling lonely and need a little affection? Women are selling themselves on social media for money. They allow cuddle sessions, very sensual massages and very personal lap dances.

Oh, and let's not forgot about all these Instagram models who now have onlyfan accounts and publish nudes that people can view for a monthly fee. Oh, and if you tip these models on their onlyfan accounts, they can make you a personal/sexy video.

With all these options, men really don't need to go out and date anymore. It's sad... but it's true.

[AmandaYVR]

You're totally right. I could do an entire mytake or q about how critical and unaccepting people are nowadays. It's a social disease. I must have written it dozens of times by now, in comments here and there. I'm just trying to be careful and not rant about too many topics, but honestly there are many issues that could all use some more exposure. The questions we see brought up on here, again and again, have some common threads and themes. I'm not sure if people don't see them, or aren't interested.

I remember reading an exchange between you and your girlfriend. It was so sweet. I'm happy you two found each other and are both happy.

That's a good, pretty comprehensive list you made. Do you think most people who partake in that kind of stuff are really satisfied and fulfilled by it, or is it just filling in, because that's what is easily available? We could be heading towards Japan, and that is not a model for the future I would like to see. Also, I'm sure sex dolls are going to take off, any minute. Only thing preventing it is cash, right now.

[soleil2666]

You mention Sydney,

I was there in the late 90s when it was beautifully human and kind - and again 2014-2018 when it was a complete disaster of angry shallow self-agrandisation at the expense of others.

The dating, if anything, will come back - but Dating was always about enjoying the other person't presence, not the achievements of being with their looks (which relates not to the person one bit). Sydney has gone completely bonkers - no other place in the world is so stuck in being a mirror image of the worst of what is to be found online.

Funnily enough, both Europe and America are entirely different in person to this raging anti-dating anger on the internet (which seems to pertain to Sydney the most, then to the rest of Australia, of all the places I have seen)

Find back being a fair dinkum mate feeling and a bit of that true blue helpfulness to each other and you'll be back on track and fine (but let me not excuse Sydney too fast - it will be a painful experience to get off the Insta-hatred drug)

[AmandaYVR]

That was incredibly well written. And so nice to read a POV from another locale around the globe. The entire world does begin and end with America, even if it is population and pop culture-dense, so I always enjoy alternative perspectives. It can be very eye-opening.
Thank you very much for your contribution to this topic.

[startingfitness]

in my opinion, dating was a flawed process from the beginning. it pretends to be a romantic process in which a man tries to find and win over a wife, but it looks more like a man trying to arrange a deal with a pr*stitute.

why would you need to privately meet in a restaurant or another avenue , pay for her and hope she has a good time. that's kind of like soliciting a pr*stitute.
actually you should get to know her friends , her family, talk to people , talk to her, see if you are a good match and take it from there. Usually that is more likely to be successful , it involves more personal investment and less monetary investment. but anyway, dating worked for a while and it doesn't now.

I think it just needs a change to adjust to modern times. women work these days , so take out the " pay for her " and pay 50/50.
if the guy plans one date, let the girl plan the next one. you get to know each other better and see what each other likes to do.
do more personal things instead of things you waste money on. like Netflix and chill at home instead of going to movies, cook up something together at one of your places instead of going to a fancy restaurant.
and the last one ( probably a lot of people don't like this) get friends and family involved and get to know them. I think if we adjusted it to modern times, and made it a bit more personal, it can be saved.

[AmandaYVR]

Good points. I can understand you feel that way about spending money and paying for dates. A lot of men feel that way nowadays (and some women.) I'm sure one of the big reasons a dinner is still a popular arrangement is because all of the peripheral people in that person's life don't matter as much at the beginning. What matters is your connection to each other, just the two of you. If it was in the olden days (and many countries who still strongly are fighting for arranged marriages), the family would be paramount, above most else, but anyway in North America and most 1st world countries it's not the norm. Cooking together or one cooks at another's place is a good way to get to know each other. But a lot of people live in tight urban centres and with roommates or with their parents still, so I think for probably practical reasons the outside date will remain. But for the people who say that money is the obstacle to them dating, if expectations were generally lower (or we lived in less consumerist times), it could still be done. It's almost like having a double whammy - no person in their life and no money to do many activities. But life wasn't always like this. We used to have very little and were people more miserable?

[startingfitness]

Yeah, actually we are more miserable now. Having a lot of option doesn't ensure happiness. In fact there was some study that said beyond a certain number, incteasing options causes a negative effect on happiness. And also anxiety i think. I will try to look it up.

I guess you would have to go out to eat in some circumstances. But i feel like cooking together is a lot more intimate. My roommate, his date (later gf) and i used to all cook together at our place. I would give them privacy when they needed, but we did the cooking together and ate together. They would then go out or stay in his room. If he went to her place it would be the same with her roommate. But it was actually good since we all good to know each other. But i can see how that's not ideal fpr a lot of people. Me and my roommate were good friends, if you aren't good friends with your roommates you probably dont want to introduce your date to them.

[AmandaYVR]

Yep, agreed.
3 choices. 5 at the outset.

[startingfitness]

Oh cool. You read that study too?

[AmandaYVR]

Not sure which study in particular you're referring to (I don't remember where I've read it) but I am particularly interested in 'the paradox of choice' and have done research on that. Fascinating stuff, eh.

[startingfitness]

I dont remember which one it was either. But it made a lot of sense to me. Whenever there are like 20 options, i always pick one of the first 4 or maybe 5. So what i read made sense to me

[FatherJack]

This is all by design , deliberately toxic social engineering that has been steadily accelerated over at least 5 decades , designed to drive a wedge between the genders , firstly by influencing girls / young women to see males in a negative light , via the strongly feminist influenced " education " systems and the controlled " media " , as the more emotional female brain is more prone to this programming / indoctrination. This will create an inevitable male backlash , borne from resentment / frustration. Since the 1990's , popular culture aimed at female consumption , has had the theme of " I don't need no man / men are useless morons " , all designed to influence women to reject having men in their lives , & for men to view women as negative towards men , and not worth bothering with.

Personally I do not want to ever date , as I simply can't be bothered with multiple job interviews , and my former marriage took in toll , I view relationships as a stressful hell , plus I am mostly rid of my Male Curse , so no biological drive to pair up. In addition , being a single dad , being real , I will have very few potential options , I cannot compete with the vast number of baggage free men out there.

[startingfitness]

its not just brainwashing. the system empowered women to the point that they don't need men.

[DJZest]

Another thing to add is that lesbianism has been pushed, and it's been extremely successful, with many women having gained and bred the desire for they own sex, which never dies.

Today they're pushing pedophilia. I see channels on youtube that dress young girls (6 year olds) scnatily and make them do the cat walk, with posing and everything. Somw have upwards of 100k subscribers, with many creeps posting enthusiastic, cheefrul comments. Do that's going somewhat successfully, too.

[startingfitness]

@DJZest i always thought that pedophilia was the endgame with the lgbt propaganda. But its unlikely that it will ever be accepted.

[AmandaYVR]

@startingfitness

This is all very dark. I think you guys are both (mostly but not entirely) off base.
Jack, I remember chatting with you about what your daughters are being taught in school. If it's really as bad as you say, well that's awful. But I question whether it is. It is your responsibility to raise them to have clear, independent minds, and to think for themselves. You are the most influential person in their lives. Use that, and don't discount your impact. If you're really this concerned about what they are being taught about society, perhaps you should take some sort of action.

Pedophilia is disgusting and there can be no justifications for it. But humans are patheticly opportunist money-grubbers (many of them) and it's no surprise pedophilia is just another way to get 'easy money'. Parents in undeveloped Southeast Asia are peddling off their children onto video cams online. Some people even try to explain this away, saying they have no other money-making potential. Those people should be sent to prison... or worse. They don't deserve their children. And the children will be ruined for life.

Lesbianism etc. is not something people are coerced into. And if people choose it, you both have to accept free will and choice. It's a manipulation and excuse to blame this for other of the world's current problems.

[startingfitness]

There are a lot of lies and misinformation coming out of the lgbt movement. Whoch is why i, amkng other call it propaganda.

They say that their attraction to whatever oerson is not in their control. And then it has been acceoted as being genetic.
Well, if we check the science behind their claim, we dont really see any scientific proof supporting that argument. In fact a recent study, showed that epigenes can affect sexuality. This means that sexuality can change due to certain reasons. That would go against the whole "born" this way argument.
And now the question would be what causes the sexuality of a person, how is it determined.
Then we would have to look into whether or not experiences growing up can affect anything. But the lgbt shys away from that whole discussion.

[startingfitness]

And then there comes the discussion about whether or not sexual abuse is a factor. It used to be commom knowledge that gay men have a high likelyhood of having been sexually abused as a child. However its not okay to say that anymore. So no one knows the actual numbers. If we were allowed to talk about it, you could have found out decent estimates of the numbers. But you can't. Well you can but you are not supposed to.

So a lot of these things point to measures to protect or normalize pedophilia. However i look at it, it seems to be their goal. But i don't believe it will happen

[AmandaYVR]

@startingfitness
Ok, fair points.
There are still a lot of people who are gay/lesbian/etc. and say they always felt that way, once they hit puberty. So it can't mean that there are none of them born that way. But it does appear to be a choice made by some. Everything now being trend-ily called "fluid". There is a very astuate Asian woman who I have seen interviewed (sorry, forget her name or bkgd/title) but she confirms that there are a significant number of people who have had sex change operations... and live to regret it. Her conclusion is that they did it too young, without fully exploring, and knowing, without a doubt, what type of sexual life they wanted to live. This sounds shocking to some, but I believe her research methods. She is impartial, and does not appear to have anything to gain from her conclusions.
Sexuality is such a hornet's nest now. I don't have much more to say on it. I don't really care what other people do. But it (the uncertainty, the tip-toeing, the antagonism... all of it) is starting to affect society, in negative ways, that is for sure.

[Robertcw]

Hmm. Actually the facts are that intimacy and sex are just down in general.

Birth rates are at record lows, partner counts are at record lows and sexlessness is at record highs for under 30 age bracket.

The reason is obvious, economical hardship due to intergenerational conflict.

The damn boomers are taking things their graves without letting us take over ideologically. Fact: 54% of democratic voters under 35 support Bernie Sanders for president.

60+ voters overwhelmingly support Biden.

35 - 49 voters overwhelmingly support Buttigieg (🤮).

Traditionally, women have dated older men by 2-6 years older. But now, if you are 21 there's a huge difference between what you believe in and what a 25 year old believes in. This wasn't the case before this era.

Guys in their 30's would pair off with girls in their late 28's.

But if you're a Buttigieg supporter then you're jot going to get along with someone who is a Sanders supporter -- not because of candidate choice but because of the underlying moral framework and thought process at hand.

I see it all the time, younger girls looking up to the current older guys and looking a little upset -- concerned, disappointed, jealous of previous generations and ultimately kinda cheated. So we're going to see Gen Z shift to equal age pairings.

Gen X guys paired off with older Gen Y girls in the 2010's (🤮).

Younger Gen Y girls are putt- off by Gen X'ers.

And so on. Cultural differences are no longer decades apart, they're 3-6 years apart. This is what os creating waves in dating. Young women have never had this problem before now.

[Robertcw]

Oh and this isn't even including race and culture as a factor in an increasingly multi-cultural society with more than one language.

White births are falling, all other race births are rising. Ie, young white people are being ostracized by young people of color.

[kim45456]

What is wrong dating younger guys? Do i have to date old ugly men?

[FriedPickles1218]

Coming from a guy. I think it has a lot to do with guys and insecurity tbh.

Men are well aware of how disposable we are to women these days. With the rise of feminism, all this sexual harrasssment stuff going on , dating apps , social media etc. Men are afraid to even stare at a woman too long let alone start a conversation. But dont even get me started on marriage which can destroy his life if she wants a divorce. Bottom line is women, especially attractive women, or at least women were attracted to, know they can toss us anytime they want for a richer, better looking guy or whatever. Thats just my thoights.

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you, that's interesting.
I'm not going to argue against what you said but I'm sorry you feel that way.
I have never felt that way and nor have any of my girl friends. (In fact, I've felt that I was the replaceable one, and have been memorably replaced twice.) But I understand how much of culture has changed, and how these demographic, economic, cultural and philosphical shifts have left many men feeling disposable, or at the very least wondering what role they now play. All people being self-sufficient sounds like the ideal, but in a twisted way it has also made us less emotionally reliant on each other and that is a double edged sword. We do have more fulfilling lives when we are needed. It can go too far, bear too much a weight, but there can be purpose and meaning in helping others, and being part of a partnership.

In regards to dating apps: I have read that men have the advantage there. Because it is so objectifying, choosing people based primarily on photos with not that much else to go on, and because men tend to cast a wide net, the women are not that carefully chosen and they, feeling that there is much competition out there, are playing to the sex advantage, in hopes of keeping a man interested, which of course often fails because the pool of potentials is so large. And to that end, regarding your last comment, women are passed over for younger models all the time too. They are not chosen for money, but for youth. And I'll add that novelty is a lure to both. It appears both are pretty evenly disadvantaged.

[FriedPickles1218]

I've been doing some reading on this "lonliness epidemic". I must say i was kind of shocked. I didn't even know there was a lonliness epidemic but honestly, its kind of bitter sweet for me knowing that im not the only who feels lonely lol.

[AmandaYVR]

"Bittersweet" - definitely. I think about it all the time. Everything is tied together, connected, in this intricate web. It can be hard to extricate the different elements, but many are nonetheless connected.

[lightbulb27]

Good detailed analysis.

The stats were lower than I had thought, maybe it's some corner of society. I think it's the path of least resistance... to avoid vulnerability and risk, it's easier, feels good for the time, and has less pain. Being more selfish and unsure of what they want and who is right for them with an abundance of options, they do what is easiest and what they think others are doing (Tinder).

It's a time when you have to know what you want, what your boundaries are, communicate clearly and stick to it. Because those boundaries are likely to be tested.

[AmandaYVR]

That's a new angle. I like it.

[wankiam]

great take but two points i would like to put forward... one, hook ups or people partaking in casual sex are less than previous generations because sexting seems to have taken over rather than realworld social interaction and two this is directly linked to social media and dating apps that seem to have failed as a form of introduction but instead become a place to find pen pals but i dont see the over relliance on smartphones lasting beyond 30 or 40 years... can you believe it was the same when books first became widely available to a newly educated populus back in the 1600s... people were page zombies stood in the street losing themselves in a world of literature in the same way we see people today glued to that tiny glowing screen and a history teaches that was indeed a 40yr phenomena before it all levelled out again... ergo its not quite the end of humanity even if it appears that way for now

[AmandaYVR]

Interesting, Thanks, wankiam, I always enjoy your analysis.
I haven't heard that thinking about smartphones losing their appeal. I can't imagine it (unless chips in the brain or in glasses take their place, which would be probably even worse), but I'll be happy if it happens. Or I'll be dead by then so whatever.

Yes, more social media means more sexting and more people getting off singly, which is a lot less fulfilling but better than nothing. The issue is whether the SM is making people lose their drive and skill in finding real life partners. Could be compensating, or could be causing. Hard to say yet.

[wankiam]

i think it takes away from people learning real social skills to the degree we see very small children talking in text speak and trying to swipe books

[Jjpayne]

This is amazing!! Thanks for using me! I am humbled and honored! And thanks for using the dating project! I love that movie. Now this is not flattery but have you considered writing a book? I honestly think you could do a great one. Even if it only gets to Amazon... But I honestly think you should attempt one. And if you do, let me know and I will buy a copy :)

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you, Jj. And you're welcome. I think your words were very poignant. It is just the kind of thing that moves me.

[Jjpayne]

I'm glad to hear it

[Jjpayne]

Hey and two down votes that's kinda special :)

[AmandaYVR]

Yep, we got haters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2iQRL0KIdg

[JackSmy]

Dearest AmandaYVR I love, and adore your posts, the thoroughness, and your intelligent thought process, but, like Kevin Costner, when he directs movies, the term 'Brevity' or "Concise" are not apparently in your vocabulary!! Loving your posts, nonetheless!! :) :) :)
Why does 'dating' need to be defined? When I am with a lady I like, maybe love, I don't want any rules, as to what constitutes a 'date'! I just want to be with her, in whatever way we choose, with whatever we decide to do, together!
I admit, I lost interest, and stopped reading, because it was sooooooo long! Who has the attention span to want to read War and Peace? (Ok, I do, and would, but I stopped, and lost interest, because I didn't agree or need all that, even though I think you are amazing and love your posts!)

[AmandaYVR]

Jack, my dear, just because you wrap your criticisms and critiques in smiley faces and exclamation points doesn't take away from the gist of what you are saying. You criticize and disagree with many or most of my posts and questions so I don't know why you want to continue commenting on them. I wonder if you are essentially a troll who doesn't believe he's a troll. You and I have quarrelled before, and come out the other end (you chalking it up to a misunderstanding or miscommunication, but I am not so sure about that), but it seems to me that you are consistently disagreeable. You just have a way of writing that attempts to make it appear otherwise. Bookending criticisms is a technique and I don't like pandering.
I know my writing is long, and certainly longer than most. I am well aware, and I expect a lot more than half the users will not read what I write. But I am honestly ok with that. I know who I am, what I am interested in, and the type of people I enjoy communicating with. I don't believe in a watered-down, so democratic to the point of complete neutrality stance on all things in life. Not all things can appeal to all people. I did everything I could to edit this mytake to make it shorter and more concise, but some topics just cannot be distilled down shorter (I always try to be concise but I don't always succeed).

[AmandaYVR]

And I did not even close to encompass all that there is to say about it. I expected others to share their information and opinions, and this helps to fill in a topic, which they are.
You repeat yourself, my dear. Often. I've heard the same comment from you over and over, about how you just want to love and hug and kiss and have dinner with someone and you don't want to over-complicate or over-analyze it, and apparently you don't want you or anyone else to define anything either (that's twice now). So fine. You do you and I'll do me. You don't have to read my stuff if you don't like it. Really. I'm interested in sociology and psychology and I have read and seen a lot of stuff about relationships and dating, and I instinctively analyze it because that's who I am, but if you don't want to, then don't.

P. S. And yes, I agree with you, Kevin Costner's movies are too long. There. We have one thing in common. But that might be the end of the list.

[Kurαȷ]

Honestly, good riddance.
Both the dating culture and the hookup culture are cesspools of the entitled, shallow and ungrateful.

The true meaningful connections form organically, between people, friends, acquaintances not keen on dishonesty and contrivances.

Dating has always been an ugly corpse.

[bamesjond0069]

Relationships marriage etc as we know it are basically over. From an attractive mans perspective i can get married to a ho and most likely get cheated on or divorced or something and get ass raped financially OR i can have tons of sex with hot girls and do anything i want and stay rich and have an easy life.

I mean id love to have a family but im not going to risk it with a ho and unfortunately i dont think girls that aren't hos exist anymore.

The rare ones i meet are basically under their parents thumb and being forced through college to be a doctor or something equally unattractive and not allowed to date. So here i am. Waiting for a non slut to date.

I haven't met a girl waiting for marriage in about a decade. I guess i should have married that one. 😥 i just thought there were other girls like that at the time.

[AmandaYVR]

I don't even know what to say to you, James. (Obviously I know I don't have to say anything.)
You are one of these guys who finds girls who will/want to sleep with you, and then instead of appreciating them for that, or looking at it neutrally as a mutual interest and passion for each other, you disparage them for being sluts. Your wording actually disparages the others as well - the ones who are not faithful, and the ones who marry for money or are vindictive and selfish about money (yes, they may deserve some disdain and strongly derogatory terms, but let's be realistic, a lot of shit happens in relationships and those are the endings you're talking about, and likely do not encapsulate the entirety.) But you also put down the girl who's educated or trying to have a strong career. They can't win. You've got every angle covered. You're feeding into the system, creating it, even, by confirming to them that there's no point trying to find a guy to settle down with. They only want girls for sex. They are objects of pleasure, and maybe little more.

[AmandaYVR]

I'm not saying you're not finding girls who just want to 'have fun'. I'm sure there are some and you can find them. But hopping from person to person to person is what people do when they haven't found a person they really want to stay with for any extended time. If one doesn't have respect for another human being, and doesn't show patience in getting to know them, and one's standards and expectations are so high that no one who is flawed (and that's everybody) can measure up, then one will just keep bouncing from one to another to another. I get it. Why not have sex, when it's available and it feels fantastic. Why not meet a bunch of people and have experiences. But that desire doesn't last forever. Because then no one truly knows you. And no one really cares. And no one asks you how your day way. And no one brings you soup when you're sick in bed. Even Clooney eventually found someone that he wanted to come home to every night (and he says, "She's way out of my league, too good for me.")

[bamesjond0069]

The more men a woman sleeps with the more likely she is going to initiate a divorce, cheat, the works. Period. They have done plenty of studies on this. I personally know of not one person who married someone I consider a slut who did not cheat on them. Every single one did and I totally called it. Sorry, but that is life, women who sleep around are very high risks and I am not going to risk my financial future on someone that doesn't give a fuck if they are a shitty wife to me.

The problem with career women is they don't believe in having kids or taking care of them and/or they are older with no benefit. Like men age but they get older and tend to make more money, and women really like men who make more money. But women age and make more money, but IDGAF how much money a woman makes, I want one to have a larger family with and who is good at taking care of a home. I don't want kids, I want a family. Huge fucking difference.

[bamesjond0069]

Sex is special, particularly for women, and if you don't believe that, we have nothing in common morally at all and would never work. ie any woman who sleeps around does not respect herself and I will treat her accordingly.

[AmandaYVR]

I've heard another guy on here reference a study or theory that women who have had more/many sex partners before marriage are more likely to cheat and/or divorce, but I have never seen this. I'd be interested. Can you link? I'm not going to give a retort because I don't have enough information on that, but I will say it's very obvious that this should also then apply to men as well. Was the study actually done with women only? Women are filing for divorce more often than men now. That could be analyzed more.

Why do you say "sex is special" yet previously describe yourself as "can have tons of sex with hot girls and do anything i want"? It's hypocricy that is inflammatory. I've seen your comments before and quite honestly I've seriously considered blocking you because I saw that we probably "have nothing in common morally at all" and I found some things very offensive, but I have long since decided not to do this, philosphically, and I think visibility and being aware of what others are saying is very important (echo chambers, yada yada.) So I find it a bit interesting/humorous that you are saying that, yet now you are questioning my morality differences. Hmm. But I don't remember what the comments I read were specifically at all now, and misinterpretation is always a possibility, and then some guys' penchant for trolling just for fun. So I don't know. Anyway, unless people are totally unreasonable, I am in favour of dialogue and an exchange of ideas. I think it's important, and that not enough people are doing this.

[bamesjond0069]

I don't remember it specifically to link but there are a few studies of related concepts.

When it comes to men, the data shows its not nearly as correlated. It has some relation and i think ideally men wouldn't sleep around but its not nearly the same as women. If men have in all recent decades been dogs. And now women are only starting to become dogs like men and women have surpassed men in initiating divorces. Assuming that is the related factor, obviously it has a much bigger impact on women than on men.

But at the end of the day if either one, men or women, decide dating is not worth the trouble, then dating will be over. It takes two to tango. From a more than average attractive mans perspective, i believe its over. I get a better outcome not getting serious with women than i do if i get serious with a woman. This is the rise of the fuckboy. I dont particularly want to be a fuck boy but i get the best reward for doing so. If it was harder to have casual sex and if there were better prospects for marriage then i would be married right now. Lol.

I dont know the females perspective or a less attractive mans perspective but from mine its about dead.

[AmandaYVR]

Well, since you're bringing it up multiple times... do you think you are naturally attractive, or have you done things (eat healthy, work out often, style yourself in a certain way) to make you "above average"? Just curious.

"... if there were better prospects for marriage then i would be married right now." Hmm... Yes I think a lot of people feel this way, underneath their heated defence of flings. But the 'why' of this is complicated and layered.

[bamesjond0069]

I am very athletic. Im also handsome like girls comment on my looks a lot like face not just body. Im also wealthy. And almost no girls have ever broken it off with me. Im always the one who does the dumping. And usually because its not how they appeared to be ie they said they do not sleep around but then later they tell me they slept with more guys then originally let on. Thats happened a lot and similar kinds of things. I get along great with most of them but i just refuse to be monogomous especially married to a girl who is not a virgin or practically one. Ie maybe like one or two other guys but thats it.

[bamesjond0069]

And most girls I've dumped still call me back to have sex with them a lot. Ie the three girls im sleeping w now are all girls i dated two from years ago and one was recent. Im really really good in bed supposedly.

[DJZest]

I know what to say to you, James. A quiet, good woman is almost non-existent today. Also, a prenup would secure your ass, so why not go for that?

[bamesjond0069]

@DJZest why even get married? I personally see no benefit. You can "rape" your wife these days, you would think at least im protected from false rape claims or something but no. there's not one right or benefit gained from marriage. This is why a woman must be marriageable in order to convince a man to marry her. Better than a prenup i can have her removed from my home by police if necessary at any moment. And unfortunately i need that sort of power against someone who is very likely to try and abuse me. Ie through cheating or no fault divorce... and yes that is abuse.

[bamesjond0069]

I dated a girl once and she moved in and she broke my tv and punched me and i threw her out the house that second. Id been friends with her for years and dating for like a year. Unfortunately women who dont have skin in the game aka their virginity tend to act out because they have little to lose.

[AmandaYVR]

Virginity has nothing to do with what you're talking about, James. It is sad that you feel that way. Women are more than pure or unpure, tainted and manipulative or innocent and unflawed. It appears you have a madonna/whore idea of them. Women are complicated, complex, sensitive, emotion-filled (some), and at times expect too much from the people around them (perhaps their lovers, most of all.) But it is like looking into an ocean - there is no way to see or know all that there is below, inside. You have to relish in the challenge. The sea doesn't tell you all its secrets in one wave. It takes time, and different seasons must pass before you know her. And similarly, to be loved by a woman like this, is one of the greatest states a man can ever know. It does not encompass everything in life, but one every man hopefully experiences. You're cutting the whole thing short. People need to take a risk, and find ways to accept the rocky bottom and the shores that break too harshly. It is what makes the sweet that much sweeter. It is the inclusion in the diamond that reminds us how much went into their formation.

[bamesjond0069]

I don't know what any of that means. Maybe that makes sense to a woman but im a man. Im competitive, aggressive, practical... i dont want a girl who slept around. Its humiliating and those girls are more likely to misbehave. Im a very attractive man and i dont owe a ho jack shit. I dont think marriage is worth a damn unless i can get a well behaved woman i can be proud of otherwise ill just fuck and fuck nbd. Imagine me giving you the same pitch but saying "you shouldn't want a successful man, a broke man who is lazy brings more challenges to a relationship and will make you much happier because people who are forced to work overtime so as to pay rent will develop good work ethics" does that sounds like a good argument... especially to a very attractive woman? She going to say fuck you dude. Lol.

[AmandaYVR]

Well, I tried. Your mind's made up. Nothing can be gained from going further here. Adios.

[bamesjond0069]

Was something supposed to be gained? Women used to be marriageable and valuable and now they have no value so therefore why would men bother to seriously date them or marry them? I've talked to women who aren't what im looking for and i dont like them, and i see no way they could fit in with my life so therefore useless to me. there's nothing else to consider.

[AmandaYVR]

Look, I'm not here to change minds. But I am here to do more than just browse around and answer shallow sex questions and put in my two cents on whatever preferences I have about whatever, and read others' on things which have no bearing or meaning. I want to think, as well as sometimes/often but not only be entertained. Many are not here with the same ideology and believe me I get that. But if I bring up a topic like this - and 'gender wars' and the breakdown/sea change of all communication and relationships shifting into something else (add to that the idiocy of arguments about this new age feminism, 'toxic masculinity', the extremists of the two political parties, the list goes on...), I want to hear opinions about where others are at, and at times try and find out how they got there.
I knew I wasn't going to agree with you (based on prior comments you've made elsewhere), but conversing with people who have a stubborn mind and refuse to engage in any rational discussion that may initially appear counter to their own... is something I am experimenting with. I'm writing this not to only interact with you, but because I know others will be reading it. And I've made a philosphical decision to [sometimes] engage, not block or censor or attack.
The point at which this particular thread became futile for me is obvious. But you adding that women "now they have no value" is so disgustingly biased and close-minded and final (and WRONG, even if you take out the moral aspect and just think statistically speaking), that now all I want to do is tell to you fuck off, and to do us all a favour and stop fucking them, while you're at it. It may seem like it's an equal endeavour, since you're finding girls who are willing and [apparently] happy to fuck you, but it's really causing a mess. You just don't see that.

[DJZest]

You knew her for years and dated her for one yet she destroyed your property and assaulted you. Insane.

[bamesjond0069]

@DJZest she had slept with more men than most girls i ever spent time with. So yet another one that fits the pattern. I never had a virgin give me a hard time and the more men theyve had the more difficult they are.

[Lightning8]

I do find all of these silly and insecure luke warm dating terms counterproductive and even dishonest. Just go for it and if you feel more strongly, so be it. If they feel more strongly so be it. It's ok when you just communicate and compromise, and are clear that this is what you're trying to do. It really isn't as scary as we often make it.

Anyway, this is well written and has a professional flair to it

[AmandaYVR]

Thanks, Lightning.
Yep, I do know what you mean. Sometimes I just think everyone should have a drink and a smoke and stop overthinking it all (and yes, the terms can be dishonest and counterproductive.) The daytime Amanda sees the endless parade of angsty questions on here about relationships and dating and can't help but ponder it all, and the nightime Amanda just does the first technique and chills contentedly on the sofa, not worrying about it at all.

[Twalli]

My girlfriend and I go on dates quite often. It may just be the movies, but we make sure that it's just us most of the time. If it's a group event we don't count it as a date.
I think my sister will be with us on our date on Saturday, but that's because we need a driver.

[AmandaYVR]

Yay good for you.

[Kdude010]

Dating is dead because of the hookup culture. Who needs dating when people are more sexually active than ever before?

Given the rise of STDs in America, I'm glad that I am single and not taking part in this hookup culture. I sure as hell wouldn't sleep with some random girl I met on a night out. Who knows what is going around.

[AmandaYVR]

Yep, fair point. They are way up. And some are antibiotic-resistant now.

[israelisevil]

I like my girl our first dates we just hung out in park smoking weed later same park from evening to morning on shrooms been with her since 16. Fucked on 2nd date i didn't leave her no such thing as being used for sex. Any woman came rich family will be used living with silver spoon in mouth and getting things for free. Find a woman who will be with you when you broke and would wait you in prison and stay with you nomatter what. A woman expects be taken restraunts for dates is gunna leave u soon something bad happens to you

[JRise25]

Ok, I am old school and I met someone that's close to my age. We aren't getting caught up in all that makes dating not what it is these days. Having said that, and I hope others can help me out here. The first date we had, I summed it all up by saying "it's a date" and at the end, we asked each other "was the date worth it", so the first time it constitutes as such. Now the woman I am seeing, she has a child and I work nights, so the only time we can see each other is during the day. We never used the words "date", but she asked me to one on one time a couple times to lunch. Each time, no alcohol, equal time talking, unfortunately we didn't talk about getting to know each other the whole time, at times we talked her personal matters. But each of the last two "dates", towards the end, I ended by massaging her knee and talking with her, which resulted to HER kissing ME on the cheek the second date and the third date, HER kissing ME on the lips. Thoughts?

[AmandaYVR]

I don't understand what you're asking here.
You don't like that she initiated the physical side, hey? Many men would be happy about this. You are an adult, as is she, and she has a child which she is responsible for. She spoke to you about some personal matter (s) bothering her. You are both respecting the process of getting to know one another (and without anything like late dates or alcohol, etc. to influence it.) What is the problem? Everything sounds like it is going well. Enjoy it?

[IHateBeingaMan]

some people think we are in a dating, relationship apocalypse, specifically saying, there are more single adults today than ever before, marriage is on the decline, the birth rate is at the lowest point in U. S. history.

[AmandaYVR]

Yes! All true.

[IHateBeingaMan]

is there evidence that supports that?

[AmandaYVR]

I don't know about the 'relationship apocalypse' term, but yes I have heard all of the others stats, here and there. I can't consolidate them into one article, but I can confirm them.

This article comes to mind, which is very interesting. The Atlantic is notorious for the length of their articles (it will lose most peoples' interest on gag), but I agree with them that many topics just cannot be encapsulated in short verse. This one is very informative.
It is specifically about the sex (or lack of sex) of the high school aged. aka The Sex Recession. Definitely worth a read, if you're interested in this topic.
(It is separate from the 'hookup culture' discussion. Hookups are happening with older adults.)
www.theatlantic.com/.../