Ladys, for one minute try to see this from guys perspectives. If I want a relationship, I first have to make myself desirable to many women; this alone can take decades. Then I have to ask a girl out, god knows none of them will ask me. Then I have to plan a date. Then I have to somehow convince you on that date that I am not a deadbeat. Then I Have to ask you if you enjoyed yourself and want another, which I again have to plan. If I ever want to marry I have to pick out a ring and I have to propose. I'm not just trying to complain but it leads me to ask the question. Why are women so afraid or incapable of making any decisions when it comes to dating? whenever this question is asked the most common responce is "that's just the way it is" I want a real answer!
Why do women expect so much out of men?
Updates
+1 y
I do consider the fact that women have to bear children. So they look for men who are capable of picking up the slack during that time. I just don't see why that means we have to make every major dating decision.
Updates
+1 y
This question sounds more regressive than I intended. Sorry, I'm just a little off emotionally today. Thank you all for your input.
Doing a damn fine job of complaining without trying lol. Not shitting on you, but damn dude xD. Not saying I don't agree that girls have a certain level of expectations. I just don't think the average girl has super high expectations like some guys do. The bar is pretty low. I always contrast true expectations with preferences.
Many girls have preferences that if they were standards would be way way way too much. But people call those preferences expectations, when they're not. A girl would easily take a guy that doesn't meet those preferences. Actual standards for things girls want in a guy is pretty damn low. Same for guys in relation to girls. a lot of girls think mens expectations are so high, when they're really just looking at preferences.
Like yea, I'd love it if a girl looked like Angelina Jolie in her prime, had a massive sex drive and wanted to fuck on the daily, was interesting, was great with my friends, wasn't being needy and asking for too much of my time and just made a perfect addition to my life. But I don't require the girls I see to me that as a standard. That's not a standard. That's just a "in a perfect world, I would like xyz". Clearly I'll be with a girl that doesn't 100% line up with those preferences.
The people who make their preferences actual standards are the forever alone people, who are telling people they just "don't settle ever". They're going for what they "deserve". When if they actually deserved that they would already have it.
I think of girls I know who said they would never date a guy shorter than 6'0 and are now engaged to men who are 5'7, 5'8, 5'9 and so on. Shit that really just doesn't matter. People would say that was her standard or expectation, but it was really just a preference. Not some hard line rule.
Because many men are shit these days, and women are bombarded by them.
These men will do anything needed to get their attention. Being doormats, calling and writing to them all day long, generating plenty of drama, getting too sexy too soon, or purposely ignoring them.
So it reaches a point that it becomes quite hard for girls to keep composure. If you exhibit any of those behaviors, they already had too much of it, and won't have the patience to figure out the extend of them.
I have been in that situation because I dated guys for a couple of months. I'm not attracted to guys, but I simply wanted some sex.
Also after much rejection from girls, I was quite curious about what is different with guys just for the learning experience. If I didn't like it, I could simply stop doing it (and that was the case for sure).
I was amazed about how many shit I received. To begin with people was chatting all day long, saying quite inappropriate things, and after that not making an appointment. They were always looking for a better deal, and making plans in the last minute.
I met three guys. They either were weirdos, or quite negative people. And those were the best of the best I received messages from.
The rest of them all day long asking me for nudes, and not making an appointment. Since I'm quite sexy, I was receiving a new request from a different person every ten minutes.
Ahhw poor boy. But seriously: - being desirable isn't that hard. For most people. - if convincing a girl you're not a deadbeat is a dauntingly high bar for you, you might want to reconsider what you're doing with your life. - is it really that hard to ask someone if they enjoyed hanging out? - you don't have to be traditional about marriage you know. By the time you're considering it that should be discussable. - if women were unable to make decisions, why do you have so much trouble convincing one to date you?
Besides, women go through their own whole process of doing society-appointed stuff to be able to date. Think shaving body hair. Think pretty clothes and spending time and money on makeup all the time. Think being beautiful, a good cook, funny, smell nice, smart and going through the pain of high heels (And I'm not even talking about things like sexual harassment and the glass ceiling). Think it's superficial? Definitely. Do I dare to stop shaving my armpits? Definitely not. I agree with you that it's stupid that certain roles, that have nothing to do with biology, are appointed based on gender. But don't think you're the only one who experiences them.
That said, I asked out my boyfriend on our first date and second, we pay about 50/50 and I'm pretty sure I still put more effort into being desirable than he does.
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Asker
+1 y
Well thanks for the patronizing tone. I obviously have pluny of things to work on. I think you saw this question as emblematic of my entire attitude towards women, I assure you that is not the case but I admit I felt a bit upset when i wrote the question but I'm legitimately just sharing my feeling about the topic. Sorry if I came off as unsympathetic to womens problems and work they do put into dating and relationships i do appreciate it, even though i haven't experianced it firsthand.
There's always that one annoying girl in the comment section that has to derail a discussion about men to go "But wut about meeeeeee?" or "But wut about teh womynzzz"
@DWD94 well it doesn't really apply to me that much. Up until recently I was dating girls, so we both experienced a bit of both. Niw that I have a boyfriend again, I find it really weird sometimes when he wants to be traditional about things.
I wasn't all "what about meee?", I don't think women have it too hard or anything. Just saying that the giy wuth the question seemed to think everyone should pity him while I don't think the things he listed are really such a big deal.
@asker: sorry for the tone, you're right I wasn't the nicest xD
You were going "whut about me" and trying to make the whole thread about yourself. Men can't even have their own thread to discuss things without women derailing it and trying to make it all about themselves.
Its. Not. About. You.
This is exactly why I ONLY discuss certain topics with men and absolutely refuse to discuss it with women.
Desirability is not that hard to accomplish (in my humble opinion). Unless you’re just a genetic fuck up, you can pass in the dating scene as “average”. Anything between goofy charm and refined confidence could easily catch anyone’s attention. Depending on the context of how you the girl met, asking each other out is never always the “man’s decision”. What usually happens is that a girl will be the first to express her romantic feelings for the guy and leave it out in the open for the guy to accept her... which is probably communicated by whether or not he asks her out on a date (as a natural inclination to decision making). But in all honesty, it could easily be flipped around. At the same time, this equal exchange can be completely thrown out IF there was really no connection established before the decision making. So like if you plan on catching a girls attention when you barely know her... that’s probably when you’ll find yourself in a fucked up position of having to do everything yourself. If there was no work put in before, better believe you’re gonna be pulling your weight then. Because I don’t think women genuinely like to come off as approachable or self affirming (take charge attitude) when they aren’t even comfortable around you—again, no connection.
If you legitimately think dating is the same for guys as it is for girls and that there's no difficulty, I challenge you. Create a tinder account as a guy, then create one as a girl and compare the amount of messages you get.
Dating on tinder and ACTUAL dating are two different things. But again, what I said applies. No connection with only an immediate agenda will get you nowhere if you are a guy.
Dating and dating on tinder are largely the same, except the latter makes dating slightly more easier.
The guy has to approach a bunch of women. He has to weed through dozens of women before one finally agrees to a date. The reason women don't understand this is because dating is objectively easier as a woman. You have lots of men approaching you. Guys have to start up from pretty much nothing and its pretty much a full time job for us. We have to do the approaching, we're the ones that have to be desirable, we're the ones that have to stand out.
Think about it. Most women usually have dozens of guys messaging them and approaching them. We have to do our best to stand out.
Not to mention, women can just wait for a guy to ask them out. Men do not have the luxury. Men that 'wait' to have women ask them out just end up becoming bitter whiny incels.
1) If it takes decades to make yourself desirable to women you're either aiming way too high, you're looking at the wrong sort of women, or you're not a good person
2) I personally won't ask a guy out (I will after the first date) but I'll make it very clear I'm interested in going out, I don't really think that's a huge issue but if it bothers you find a more forward woman they exist.
3) I don't really find that guys plan dates very often if they do they tend to still ask you what you want to do.
4) Both men and women have to try and prove themselves on a date.
5) I really don't think you have to ask but I don't see how that is such a problem if you care so much don't ask. The only reason to ask for another date is that you enjoyed the first one so again I don't see why this is a problem.
6) Well I've never been engaged but I wouldn't really care about the ring even pick the ring after you ask if you don't know how to pick one, the proposal thing well if you don't want to do the asking tell her that.
7) Women make tons of decisions when it comes to dating and marriage as do men in the end the big choices are made by both of you anyway.
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Asker
+1 y
You tried really hard to adress all parts of the question without cursing men or getting angry in the process. These types of responses are so helpful and rare, thank you so much.
I think a lot can be expected of both genders in a relationship but they key is communication the right person for you will be okay with what you want to do and how you feel as long as you don't take advantage.
Yes, you are right. My question was inadiquatly stated to only express a one sided point of view. It kind of got taken away by each comment to represent something i don't nessecerily believe in. I see now it doesn't really make me look good but im more developed than my statements suggest.
I completely understand though, everyone gets frustrated by what they feel like they have to do. In the end it's just about knowing you don't have to if you don't want to or don't think it's worth it, the right woman will understand that and be okay with it.
Well, it's because enough guys are presumed to be willing to give it to them and we all, both make and female, are influenced by expectations of idealized partners.
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Asker
+1 y
I agree men are willing to go along with it, so am i but i feel like we secretly want to break from traditional norms, but we don't because we don't want to make wakes. We take a lot of shit and say nothing about it.
You have anxiety around women. Work on ridding yourself of anxiety around women. Learn to be 100% comfortable and women will throw pussy at you.
Problem is like 99% of men are riddled with social anxiety around women. You believe all these stupid things which create an environment which makes it impossible for you to get a girl.
You think things like:
Girls want $, 6 pack abs, big dicks, guys with lots of power, blah blah blah.
You know what really attracts women? A man who expresses himself as he is unapologetically and accepts and loves himself, and brings himself to the table for others to bask in his presence and enjoy.
If that sounds impossible to you, you have some form of social anxiety. Rid yourself of social anxiety and you will finally see how awesome women are. Girls are fuckin so cool and chill and laid back. ANY man can just walk up to any girl and start chatting and having fun with her. But most men can’t, because their anxiety makes them believe they must prove themselves to a woman before being in her presence.
You don’t have to prove anything. The only thing you must prove is that you love yourself and are comfortable with yourself and you’re able to be yourself.
If that sounds like bad advice, you need to get rid of your fucking social anxiety. You need to learn to be happy and comfortable around women.
It is my personally belief now, that men with anxiety are just a tad scary to women. When you have anxiety, you aren’t being yourself. A woman knows when you aren’t being yourself. Not consciously, she feels it deep inside. It warns her you are unstable. That you have suffered in your life, you have not overcome that suffering through work on yourself combined with learned wisdom in life. Instead you have let that pain wreak havoc inside of you and it shows. Women can see that you aren’t being your real truest self.
Since women must raise the children, give birth, all that shit, women are seeking out men who can pass on the proper stuff. Such as how to love yourself and be cool and confident in your own skin. Women don’t want a guy who when you have a baby, he will teach the baby how to have social anxiety. Because he has social anxiety that’s what will be taught to the child.
Bull shit. If you are having trouble with women you have social anxiety. Women are not hard. They are actually really fun and awesome. As long as you’re not scary. As long as you’re not weird and giving them the creeps. As long as you are simply able to be yourself. Your true self. Without all the fuckin social anxiety. Without the fear and anguish and the negative ideas and the retarded beliefs that they only want $ and 10” cocks stuffed inside them. It’s not true but those beliefs show on you when you talk to a woman.
The ONLY requirement fornyou to find love or whatever you want from women, is to be your real truest self. Without all the anxiety and anger and angst and shitty negative emotions that hurt you and would hurt her and your children.
Women see that shit, they feel that shit. They don’t consciously decide. It’s mostly nature and society’s implantation if ideas that hurt you from the beginning.
When you write it out, it sound onerous. Still, perhaps I am one of the few lucky ones or something, buu dating had never come of as complex or as involved as you write it out to be. I mean, "convince them ypu are not a deadbeat..." No shit? This is really a thing guys are doing? Never realized this waa even a thing. If anything, it feels more like women are trying to sell me on themselves far more than I ever bother to remotely try to do so of myself. Thing is, for me it is not necessary that they do. I figure we are both there because we both wish to be and that is good enough in my head. Moving forward I just allow the chips to fall where they may.
Dating seemed easier, well, more fun anyway, when I was younger. Especially before the net amd text became part of the equation to complicate what used to be straight forward. Dating isn't hard. It should be fun and not be causing anxiety attacks for te sexes. This is way easier than what everyone thinks. Stop making it complicated boys and girls.
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Anonymous
(25-29)
+1 y
Perhaps your aggressive incel attitude is why some women don't bother with you.
1. I walked up to my boyfriend the first time we met. 2. I added him on Facebook to initiate contact after our first meeting. 3. I firstly invited him to a night out with my friend group. 4. I encouraged him to keep doing things he almost gave up on. 5. He's now successfully completing his degree (I am too) as well as has a job he's actually happy with since I helped him with planning out his schedule. 6. I always encourage him to meet up with his friends, just them. 7. We split bills 50-50, and have both gone through temporary periods of financial hardship where we both paid for the other. 8. I plan both handmade and material (e. g. video games) gifts for him on holidays/birthdays. 9. So realise that your stereotype of women isn't a reflection of reality. Nor do some shot women represent all women. 10. The problem lies with you. Why are you after crappy women & why do you think some don't dare be with you with that degrading mindset of yours?
You misunderstand: Nature is not fair. Women are trying to get the best deal they can get, and men are trying to get the best deal they can get.
Men don't NEED to be as picky as women do, because men produce bazillions of sperm all the time. You could theoretically impregnate as many women per day as you could ejaculate into.
It's totally different for women. They have ONE egg per month. If they get pregnant, that takes 9 months out of their life where they're vulnerable. Then they have to breastfeed a baby, and do everything for it. It is in men's interest to stick around, but less so if they have babies with five different women. At least one of them will probably survive.
Also, pregnancy is physically taxing on women, and they only have a limited window of years in which they are fertile. Add to this the risk of STDs, as well as violence and death, that it brings to invite a man into your bed.
All these things are hardwired by evolution, they're ancient.
Now do you understand why women try to get the very best man they can, whereas men basically look for youth and good genes and are DTF most of the time?
Sounds like you might be encountering lazy women. I've never had a problem sharing date costs, planning a date, or suggesting a date or asking a man out. It should be clear if both of you have enjoyed a date and are ready for another. And you know, I've never understood that "man picks out engagement ring," thing. What if the woman hates the ring? Why doesn't he propose first and THEN they pick out the ring together? Why don't they BOTH discuss marriage... Maybe you're choosing traditional women when for less traditional ones would suit you better. This WILL involved more looking...
I don't think this stuff has to be all that formal. I proposed to my wife at our favorite bar over a beer and a hamburger. Maybe my timing was a bit off because she had a mouthful and almost choked on it. But after she swallowed I got an enthusiastic Yes! And I never asked her Dad in advance, because I had been to some informal events with her family, and I knew they liked me. After that she told me what kind of ring she wanted, and I had it fabricated.
Women put more work into being desirable than you realize. There’s a huge beauty, fitness, dating advice industry built on making women feel inadequate, so point 1 is even.
Money/gender roles is the biggest reason men traditionally took more initiative. Men literally traded their daughters for goats back in the day. Women had no sexual/romantic choice during most of the middle of human history. Men in power tended to prefer women not working because they could get better looking, younger, and multiple wives than their looks/social skills alone could acquire. Whereas in early human history, sexy and strong and smart men mated the most often and had the highest chance of beating children - property allowed certain families to push out natural competition.
This is changing, though. Love marriages have only been popular in the West for a century or less. Women having decent careers is even newer. More women are taking the lead. Look for the gals who do.
My argument would be men also put a lot of work into there appearance, for example I work out for 2 hours a day 5 days a week and take around $500 in weight and mass gain supplements a month just to look attractive to women, I also went on doxycyclane pills to get rid of my zits which come with extremely dangerous side effects just to look attractive, plus I have to still put in all the work when it comes to dating, as in impressing her, asking her out, planning dates and paying for dates, keeping the conversation going, while I've yet to meet a women to do any ofurther those things so I still feel men are getting the short end of the stick in the dating realm
I said #1 is even - so I get that men put in work too.
So many women are willing to split dates, just hang out, take a walk in the park, etc.
As for the third thing - EVERYONE does stupid things innately with dating. You don’t think men pick crazy, mean, women sometimes? You don’t think men pick irresponsible women sometimes? Or chase women who aren’t interested in them? Humans are stupid when lust and romantic interest comes into the picture.
Here’s the thing. You don’t have to get EVERY chick to date you. Only the ones who are good for you. If that’s a more assertive, self reliant girl then consider the ones who don’t go for that bad investments. She rejects or ignores you? Good - she was wasting your time.
It’s a line. More “artistic” choices aren’t necessarily for men - like which nail color or which make up or which dress. But big picture general fitness, shiny hair, well fitting wardrobe, etc is to be attractive.
Man has to transcend biological thinking in trying to navigate life.
You take it you have to strain and tear yourself to pieces for decades before a woman may even be ready to date you. You really think this is a way to live your life?
Merely, be direct with women. This is all they want. If you want her, pursue her.
The other aspect is, don't try and appease society. Appease yourself. Be proud of yourself. But don't be a slave to society, and its definition of what it takes to be a man.
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Asker
+1 y
You may have made a point that i have overlooked as far as making yourself desirable for decades but it seems to me to be the case. Perhaps I'm trying to please the wrong type of women. But i do feel pressured to make myself desirable, so far it's served me well. I assumed most men felt like this.
So don't go after women if it bothers you that we don't usually chase you. Wait like we do for someone to come to you. Maybe if you boys back off it will force women to chase you instead. I for one think part of the problem is in general guys go after the girl that's a challenge. And we aren't a challenge if we are chasing you. No. That makes us easy. I for one am up front about liking someone. But more than half the times it led the guy to believe I was gonna be an easy lay. Lot's of guys are out there looking to just get laid. So we need you to show us that it's more than that. Cuz no guy is gonna wine and dine someone he just wants to sleep with. He's not gonna treat an easy woman special.
@tonicandgin To me it's just common since. Men have been the ones to chase women since the beginning of time. Men and women think differently and biologically we are driven to behave a certain way. If a guy is in a room with 2 women he finds attractive I can almost guarantee he will be more interested in the woman that doesn't throw herself at him. He'll gladly f'ck the easy one but will be intrigued to get to know the one that's a challenge. I'm in my forties and have a lot of years of observing this behavior. I guess I can cut these younger guys some slack because maybe they don't have enough experience to understand why things work the way they do. I don't know.
I just don't think some people including some women are ever gonna be happy until we all have perfect equality. But that ain't gonna happen till we are all born with a dick, vagina, and tits. That way we can all have babies, all get drafted, all chase each other, etc...
I for one love the differences between most men and women. I think what one lacks the other possesses in different variables which makes us a badass team to rule this life.
I could be wrong but that's how I see it. And its f'cking beautiful.
I can see what you’re getting at, but many of those things you have listed were the societal expectations of their time, which is likely why it was idealized by many. Think of the fairy tales that we all grew up with, like Prince Charming saving a damsel in distress. But nowadays it is more and more common for women to initiate dates (in person or via dating apps like Bumble or Tinder) or to even propose to their partners without fear that they will be seen as ‘too aggressive’ in their relationships. More and more women will try to go Dutch or even offer to pay for dinner as more women are working and able to support themselves financially. Things in the dating world are slowly changing to a more leveled playing field, though I admit it is still tipped in favor of women.
I hope you are having a better day by the way!
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Anonymous
(30-35)
+1 y
These days men have turned themselves into crybabies. I won't pay for dinner! I won't make a first move! I don't want to be rejected! All day, everyday men are crying about something men just did naturally in the past. Do you think this kind of attitude make men desirable or sexy? Quite the opposite. The world has come to the point where we women are independent in every way and in some cases our vibrators do a better job than some of the men. If you men keep this up, we won't have a single reason to get near you.
And we got women to thank for that. y'all are the ones raising men. y'all are the ones whining about 'muh toxic masculinity'. You made your bed, now lie in it.
@DWD94 Maybe the problem is absent fathers then if we women raise children on our own? Are you gonna pin that on us too? If we women do such a lousy job raising kids, where are you guys?
Where are the fathers you say? well you cheated on them for the badboy and rejected the faithfull man who did everything right or the father is the badboy who just wanted a quick pump and dump
Except you're not taking into account whether its at the home or at school, men are constantly being socialized and raised by women. The school system is largely made up of women. Babysitters are usually women. y'all are the ones telling men that their masculinity is something they should be ashamed of. Then you get disgusted when men act feminine. Take responsibility. Your fuckups aren't men's responsibility.
Also you realize absent fathers are not always deadbeats right? Many of them would love to see their kids but can't because the courts are biased against men.
Frankly I think it has to do with girls maturing earlier than boys I think most girls are attracted to boys at an earlier age and they realize earlier that it’s not just about looks and goes on from there. By the time boys figure this out, the girls refrain from taking chances because they already have and they’re waiting for the guys to catch up. I only say this because i remember elementary school and it didn’t matter at all if a girl called a guy or vice versa. Who made the first move didn’t matter but later in life it did and we took those sexists roles regardless of our former confidence and practice. Think about it, I’m sure you’d surprise yourself at the memories.
I remember those days of women approaching me. I figured it was because guys didn't approach them at that age so, like guys now a days, they either approached or got nothing.
I agree with part of what you are saying. I think women should be more forward in what they want and be willing to tell a guy she likes them. I also believe that women should come up with some ideas for dates later in the relationship. I even agree that women judge too much on looks, but so do men. That's about as far as I agree with you. Planning the first date and taking risks in the beginning of a relationship shows a woman whether or not a man can be a natural leader. While women have an equal role to men, men are naturally expected to be the leaders of the family because women have too much to handle to deal with what they do AND lead. Women instinctively look for a man who can be a calm but firm leader when she is having emotional times due to hormones. Many people, men and women, might not like my answer, but that is the way things are.
Men are biologically hardwired to be the providers of the family, the hunters and gatherers, and the women are hardwired to have a caring and tending role, women and men are not equal in every sense as many people would like you to believe, equal rights yes, equal ability no
@what do you understand under equal ability. Just because women and men are biologically not same does nat mean they dont deserve equal rights. Like a man ist usually physically stronger and woman can for example bear a child. So what?
Yes, I accept men are stronger than women in general, there are of course exceptions, but generally men are stronger, men have different minds than women too, both genders have specialities, yes
Because they can. Because they can get away with it. There will always be an upgrade available after you and the guy after you and the guy after him... This is hypergamy. And sometimes they won't even get it.
Watch them creating 100 rules in dating standards in order to not date *you* BUT in the right moment they suddenly forget all their rules if they meet a man that they find themselves attracted to. WATCH WHAT THEY DO more than what they say 😉
Why settle for having the cake when you can eat it too?
Don't mind if they do. Find a woman, who's more realistic.
Honestly, it is because you are behaving like a buyer in a seller's market, or worse "one-itis." If you instead behave like a buyer in a buyers market - and with over 3 billion women on the planet it is a buyer's market whether or not anyone else wants to admit it - then you will not look at dating as a famine but as a feast. Yes, I get rejected a lot, but I never care because I know that there are literally hundreds more women I will see within the next few days and some of them will say "yes."
After that, just be yourself. The problem with trying to impress is that it starts a diminishing return cycle till no matter what you do she isn't impressed. Just be yourself, and know that if she likes you then she like you for you. You might strike out a lot, but eventually you find one (s) that are into YOU.
First off you dont need to make your self desirable to many women just one. Usually planning a date is best to befor asking and the hole deadbeat th8ng is part of step one. And ring and proposal is not always necessary.
And even in this scenario women make many decisions. They decided if you desirable, if go on a date with you is something they want to do, if the date was enjoyable, if you're a deadbeat, if you worth a second date, if you someone they want to marry.
If your ask why dateis hand this way do remember women use to be property
Because your modern woman is selfish minded. In a relationship or the prelude to it, both parties must ask themselves what it is they can offer to their potential mate. That is the key to initial success, however it seems women have forgotten that. They ask only what their mate can offer them and it never even occurs to them that they must give of themselves and give in drums. We all have expectations of our partners, but what our partner will or will not give is not up to us. What is up to us is what we are willing or capable of giving, so that is what we must focus on.
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