Will ladies have to DATE down in order to score a forever partner in 2020?

[coachTanthony]

According to a recent article, broke men are hurting American women's marriage prospects. Research now suggests that the reason for recent year's decline in marriage rate could have something to do with the lack of "economically attractive" male spouses who can bring home the bacon. The article is eye opening check it out below. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jomf.12603

YES

NO

Other

See Poll (I give up on dating)

[centerline]

in these times, its hard for a woman to find a real man... there are a lot of momma boy sissies that pretend to be macho or rugged, but when it comes time to man up, they have NO idea of what to do or how to do it...

and for a real man trying to find a good woman, its nearly impossible, as the majority of the women seem to want a preppy guy, but preppy guys can't give them what they will want or need for very long...

we ALL seem to have an over rated opinion of ourselves and unrealistic ideals about what qualities our future spouse should have, and what they should be for us...

first, a man and a woman should be able to get along and be respectful of each others needs,
wants, rights and opinions...

second, they need TRUST to be able to communicate as if they were a clone of each other... no secrets with all fantasies and secretes shared without any judgment made because THEIR thoughts/fantasies are different from your OWN... we are individuals and will always remain so, and so we need to respect their right to their own thoughts and ideas, no matter what they are...

third, they need to have their own separate lives that run parallel with each other and can merge together as time goes by...

forth, they need to remain respectful of each other no matter what happens in their lives...

fifth, there can be no jealousy between them... they must be adults and realize we all make a mistake from time to time, and even if infidelity happens, there is no one out there who is going to ruin them to the point they are of no use to us... if you ever think that, your love isn't very strong to begin with...

sixth, we need to ALWAYS remember, the way one acts/reacts when their partner does something we dont agree with is usually the factor that will either cause them to run off... or it can show that we are understanding and forgiving...

seventh, if they continually take advantage of your understanding and forgiveness, its proof that their love for you isn't as strong as it needs to be to keep the relationship healthy...

eighth, you both need to understand that either of you can leave anytime you want to, and its the job of both of you to keep harmony in the relationship so that the "want" to leave never happens...

ninth, never criticize each other... you can talk and communicate your thoughts without being critical, and you need to find a way to do it... again, always be respectful!

tenth, there are and will be plenty of hardships, pain, suffering and discontent that will occur naturally in out world without us creating more for ourselves... take/make pleasure where and when you can and allow your partner to do the same and you will find the world the two of you have made for yourselves is peaceful, without drama, and rewarding... you will also find your love and trust for each other will grow stronger...

these ten things are not hard to do, because for the most part, if you remain inactive and dont react like an ass, (follow the advice) it will appear that you are a sane and confident person with a mellow attitude...

[Dongtai]

Define “dating down”. As far as I know it’s completely subjective so the answer can be yes or no depending on what type of girl you’re talking to.

[coachTanthony]

Dating down has many definitions and it does depend on each individual person but in GENERAL dating down would be a woman choosing a man who may not have a college degree, may not have a good career (ie men who are in the Gig economy which is perceived unstable)

And most importantly choosing a man who makes less then them.

[Dongtai]

Oh ok. Well damn. What’s stopping women from becoming financially independent? The only women I could see fitting this category are the women who aren’t financially independent or have the mentality that men should be bread winners.

I’m debt free and should have a career after grad next year. Financial health is something I focus on so by no means will I ever be broke. However, I’m not above dating women in higher paying fields. I’m going into the news industry and want to either do broadcasting or reporting. Their salaries waiver. I’m not expecting to be RICH but I won’t my kids won’t starve either. If I met a female lawyer, doctor or even a model (who would probably be making more than me) I wouldn’t be intimidated by their net worth. So it comes down to what I said above. Is she ok with dating someone who is financially independent BUT makes less then her or does she simply not want to date someone who doesn’t have good financial health.

Good question. It got me thinking.

[coachTanthony]

No doubt. Flip the script and the question can be: Is it considered dating down in her eyes if she makes more then you? Does you being financially independent even offset that?

[MistiGal]

'Date down' is such an open ended term...
Its opened up so many variations here, how did we get to women can't be trusted? and to women losing respect? All those comments are abit derogative to point that to all women and is not fair to say the least. If you're blaming others for what you think affects you, then you really need to look at yourself in the mirror and ask why.
We forget that men n women in days gone by where men were the breadwinners while women worked at home by keeping family, food, and the home running as it should. Women were told what to do and respected their man regardless of their situation good or bad. There was no such thing as dating up or down...
Today women have opportunities to be in high earning careers with lots of options, and many women are happy to have their man be the househusband while she is the breadwinner.
Im not saying all but there are many options that women have especially if they have a partner who is also flexible to manage their finances in order to succeed and make their life comfortable.
I see many couples, relationships where there is women who earn more than their partners and have the best relationships!
To many who think women marry just so they can divorce to get half the money etc... is titalky wrong mindset. Its goid to be aware but most marriages break down because of lack of communication, lack of love, lack of respect and lack of sex. And sometimes two people just grow apart.
So l chose no thats my opionon. It all depends on the mindset of the younger women today...
If they wish to be independant, then any of this date down shouldn't matter...

[BrittBratt2416]

Well technically yes, sense most of the current population (at least were I live) isn't that financially stable. However, dating down is a lot worse cause there's no guarantee that he's our forever partner either. There's plenty of stories of women who have dated down, and have gotten the short end of the stick. But besides financial issues, a lot of people having a hard time finding their "forever partner" is simply cause people don't know how to communicate, not giving themselves time to find who they are, heal from past relationships, or are into hook up culture.

[Ellie-V]

In this economic climate, most people in general are broke. No one wants to date a bum... or maybe I’m wrong. Maybe men are okay with getting someone who doesn’t have a pot to piss in but honestly I find that very concerning.

[coachTanthony]

I agree. Dating a bum and just being broke due to the economic climate are two different things. I guess you can be broke and not be a bum?

[Guardian45]

Agreed. Everyone should be financially independent, before entering a relationship.

[jennifer_bloom]

The reason people aren't getting married is because men no longer have to propose to woman to get sex. In historical times you had to marry before you could have sex and nobody would want you if you were divorced.

[alex_x988]

Yeah women are so cheap these days.

[Guardian45]

I don't think that is the reason.

[ChiTown33]

I would have worded it a little differently. A guy is attracted to a woman, he meets her, gets to know her, and over time a bond is formed.
I wouldn't blame it fully on equality as i think you can still have equality and exercise gender roles. But women today more and more are taking the attitude that sleeping with guys out of wedlock is taking CONTROL of their sexual destiny. Then they're surprised why no self respecting guy will have them. Because you've already told us your character.

[coachTanthony]

@ChiTown33 So all guys who sleep with WOMEN out of wedlock have no self respect? What year is this? LOL

[ChiTown33]

Actually i said women. Right is right doesn't matter what the year is. People had sex out of wedlock throught history. But it wasn't considered as socially acceptable as it is now. This is why we have all the social problems we have now from divorce rates to unwanted pregnancies. Because with too many people today their is no personal responsibility and it's all me, me, me!

[coachTanthony]

@ChiTown33 You did say women. But you also said no self respecting guy would want a woman who has had sex before wedlock. So in my summation you are saying that Men are allowed to have sex before wedlock and still consider themselves self respecting?

[ChiTown33]

No i'm not saying that. You're saying that. I think men should be held to rhe same standard.

[coachTanthony]

@ChiTown33 Alright... thanks for the comments!

[Texaskid1]

I would say it's because men don't want to get screwed in the divorce process. A lot of men have opened their eyes and realized that most marriages end in divorce and it is the man who gets screwed in the process with alimony , child support , loss of property , income , garnishes wages and what not. Divorce is very , very expensive for men in the US and other western democracies. What benefit is there for men in getting married these days? Plus feminism has brain washed many young women into believing that everything a man does is sexual harassment. Many men will no longer approach a women because they fear that she may accuse him of harassment or even worse some kind of sexual assault. This third wave feminism has not helped men or women and has done a great job of creating antagonism between the sexes.

[ChiTown33]

@Texaskid1 i was with you a bit when you were talking divorce. Joining with someone can wreck your financial future. But i don't think most guys unless they've been through a bitter divorce are jaded enough to think that way from the beginning.
However i think you went completely off the rails with your feminism rant. I don't think i've ever once been concerned with being accused with any form of harrassment. It kind of makes me wonder what guys who do are saying and doing. Lol

[Texaskid1]

@ChiTown33 I have never beeen married and I never will. I have seen what is does to guys. They get married and in 3-5 years they are miserable and then the wife wants a divorce. The guy becomes even more miserable.

As for being accused of something you seem to think that men would be going out there and stalking women and what not. No. But it is everyday normal interactions at work or at a club or bar that could get you in trouble. It does not mean that every women that is approached by the guy is going to dial 911 and say "some guy asker me for my phone number ! HELP ME!!!" But the mind set that the feminists have put out there is that it is some form of harassment and oppression of a guy flirts with her or asks her out. Believe it or not I have met guys who will not even speak to a women unless absolutely necessary out of fear that anything he says or does will be misconstrued by the women.

Since this while #metoo thing came out I for one am very, very cautious around women. I used to approach and ask for numbers when I was younger ( and many times they would give it to me ) but now I don't approach them or speak to them unless I have to. I don't sit next to them , I don't go into the same elevator as they do , I don't ride in the same car as they do , I don't spend any time alone in a room alone with them unless there are security cameras present. I don't compliment them or engage in any eye contact unless I have to. If I go out and a women flirts with me I am cold fish. If a women approaches me ( yes it does happen) I say no thank you. But who do I blame for all of this? Not me. I have never raped a women or assaulted or stalked a women before. I blame feminists for all of this. It is their fault that men and women are antagonistic towards each other.

[MistiGal]

@Texaskid1 oh dear, l feel sorry for you. Your mindset is this way because of you. Only you can make those decisions, don't let the feminism society from you seeking some good times. Yes they do have to answer for and l think its more prominent in the usa than anywhere else?
Not all women are as you say, you just have your fuatd up. But totally rezpectbyour decision, lm just meaning you're a little hard on yourself.
Some men too seek women who are also successful for agenda based purposes.
I hope someone can crac that shell of yours one day to open you up to find that there are truly genuine women out there who only want love and nothing else.

[MistiGal]

Excuse the typos... guard up ** and respect your **

[Texaskid1]

@MistiGal it is what it is. Better to be a bit paranoid than screwed over.

[alex_x988]

@Texaskid1 you said women approach you. Are you good-looking or rich and they know?

[Texaskid1]

@alex_x988 I am not rich. As for the looks dept. I would say that I am not too bad.

Women do approach men sometimes.

[BrittBratt2416]

@alex_x988 We're cheap but funny how men aren't declining these cheap women when it comes to sex

[alex_x988]

@BrittBratt2416 so those are also cheap men lol.
i said women are cheap 'these days'

[Cybernizer]

Very true. Also many of us men do not want women who have had sex before marriage.

[BrittBratt2416]

@Cybernizer which doesn't make sense cause there are just as many men who are not virgin either and gave up their v-cards long ago. I could totally understand if that guy is a virgin himself and wants a virgin woman, I'm totally fine with that. But the hypocrisy is something I'm not okay with, you can't complain about promiscuous women and their lifestyle when you're in the game yourself.

[Cybernizer]

@BrittBratt2416 I agree. Many men are hypocrites about the situation but there are us few who are dedicated and willing to wait. Sadly, many women are not willing to look for a partner who will wait.

[ChiTown33]

@BrittBratt2416 sure you can. I'm not saying a guy should but he absolutely can hold that dbl standard. Qomen have plenty of them and they're not going to change lol.
I think you need to understand it's not how many guys she's slept with it's what how many gus she's slept with says about her. She either went in with idea that hey this is casual. Most self respecting guys do not want to marry a woman that is that way. Or she went into it thinking she had found her forever. Now if this happens 30 times what does that say about her judgenent... it's not good.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Well yeah, this is the world women demanded. They said they wanted equality, that money didn't matter etc. We altered schools to best benefit women instead of men so that women could be the higher earner (feminization of education has resulted in increased drop out rates for males, males routinely score higher then girls but get lower grades despite this etc. etc.), we discouraged males from going to college by feminizing education, prioritizing female enrollment (women have 4x more scholarships and grants at their disposal to get into college even ignoring the extreme descrimination against boys in grade school to highschool, resulting in just 63% of college graduates being female vs. the 37%). So yes women are going to either learn to not depend on men as they have stated they where going to do for the past seventy years (yet haven't), stop descriminating against men and admit that they want them to be bread winners as we all know they wanted to begin with, OR they are going to have to bite the bullet and except that this is the bed they have made and now they are going to have to sleep in it and marry "down".

[Exterminatore]

Yeah. We have no men left. We have males. Not men. That is directly and 110% the fault of women. Women are solely to blame for the issue. Starts with feminism which in fact is man hating and the promotion of women’s interests over men’s and over what is in fact morally decent and right. 1st wave, 2nd wave, whatever wave of feminism that’s what it’s all about. It’s all garbage. So feminists and their cultural Marxist allies have been busy lying and promoting foolishness. They own the schools and universities. They own the media. They use propaganda and cognitive distortions to brainwash.

It started by telling women “you can have it all.” Yes ladies you can be a single mom and have the kids and a career and be a big baller and a shot caller just like a man right? No. No you can’t. If I’m wrong then why are the primary recipients of welfare single moms and women? Because you can’t have it all. Well it turns out not having a man in a child’s life to discipline children of both genders and teach boys to be men is not healthy. It turns out boys can’t learn to be a man from a woman.

Then these boys are shipped off to school where their fed a steady diet of cultural Marxist philosophy and repeatedly told either directly or in a more sublime way that being male and behaving and possessing masculine traits is bad. They’re taught to share feelings and cry when sad and every manner of other behavior that is feminine. They’re told this is good.

This message is reenforced by the media that never misses a chance to take a shot at males. Long gone is the Archie Bunker type of family man, not that he was at all perfect, but better him than the new model. Ray form Everyone Loves Raymond.” Yes. The pussy whipped moron who couldn’t possibly function without his wise and all knowing wife. This image is shone again and again in commercials, sit coms and movies.

[Exterminatore]

Well... is it any wonder we have no men left?

So yeah, the gals can date the emasculated men that their grandmothers and mothers ensured would be created and easily controlled and the current generations take to the streets to protest racism and sexism which barely exists anymore in America instead of dealing with these issues.

I hope they’re happy with the society they (women) have largely created and continue to reenforce.

[Anonymous]

By 'dating down' we are presumably exclusively talking about money right?

I that assumption is correct and we were to further make the idealised assumption that men and women were earning equally then:

If men are choosing partners who earn less than them on the basis of something else because of a tradition of expecting to be bread winners etc then it stands to reason that there will be high earning women who will not have a corresponding high earning partner available to them.

So although I have built my point on fabricated numbers which i very much doubt reflects real numbers i stand by the point I am trying to illustrate and would submit that the problem is not one of 'dating down' but one of, if you will excuse the lazy, sterotypical and hopefully obviously humourous suggestion that 'bitches be gold diggers yo!'

If you place value on other human qualities than how much coin they generate then it is not dating down to be involved with someone who earns less than you do.

So frankly I find the entire subject / argument to be grotesquely shallow, sexist, ignorant, progandist, etc

If you want to marry for coin, ok. But dont pretend that its any different to someone marrying because she has big boobies or insert literally any other single quality with disproportionate value placed on it.

[SkipStop]

I heard about this on the Ben Shapiro show yesterday. It's pretty interesting. A lot of factors come into play and there is no single straight answer. I think the main root of the problem is the strong shift away from traditional values and lifestyle. All this liberal and feminist stuff attacking society. Pushing men out of work and replacing them with women. By nature women want strong and rich men to take care of them and the kids. But since men are being denied education and work, women can't find that guy who is stronger and richer. And it's no surprise women are the ones complaining. Everything wrong in this world is man's fault even though it's the fault of liberalism and feminism which is mostly dominated by women. They created this problem. Plus, what man would want to marry in a society that discriminates against him? I sure ain't getting married.

[coachTanthony]

I definitely agree with a lot of what you have said. Ben Shapiro has a great podcast!

[lightbulb27]

I think people have to adjust their expectations so they don't think that way. I don't go around thinking I have to date down, that's really an insult based upon ones perception of themselves, which is probably over bloated.

I'd rather think, what are the attributes in someone I respect and want to be with. Good grief what's the world coming to... are we a bunch of selfish, self righteous spoiled brat snobs? We think we are rich... have we counted our share of the national debt into that?:)

The day will come when you want someone trust worthy, honorable, who has your back... by your side. Better start building those relationships, whatever they are...

[coachTanthony]

Preach my brother!

[Oram52]

I would've said if they want someone to date then they would have no choice, but women are stubborn. Proof is New York, where there are more women than men, and women are more successful than men. Despite calls from dating experts they go to for help, they still refuse to date someone earning less than them. So there are so many single women in NY.

Its also proven by research. Women like to date men of similar status, and its cross cultural.

I guess men go for women solely based on looks, men don't care about status. So attractive women end up with more wealthier men. So if these women don't want to date down economically then they better match up appearance wise.

[coachTanthony]

Good points!

[Curmudgeon]

Women's "hypergamy" has gone up to be certain. This article assumes that women will pick mates with financial potential alone, as opposed to the all too many who pick them because their naughty parts tingle.

Frankly, the benefits for men of marriage have declined, and the risks have gone up. When something rewards less and pays off less, you get less of it.

[coachTanthony]

Definitely more to this than meets the eye... that is for sure!

[GoodManDave]

I think there are a lot of factors in deciding to marry later or the decline in marriage or rates of divorce. Some good, some bad, some indifferent.

I think some of it is the economy. I know that if I met the right lady for me tomorrow, I'd be probably 5 years from marriage if work suddenly took off. I think the women are ALSO not doing great with regards to work and the economy, not just guys, though there does seem to be the expectation that the guy is supposed to do that part and earn most of the income.

I suppose it depends on the women's definition of "dating down" or settling, or culture's ideas of that.

[jgokgotit]

If income amount is the sole decider of whether or not one gets married then it is the man dating down not the woman. Dating for money shows piss poor morals. What if he loves his career but does not make as much as her? For example, a female nurse and a male cop. Their careers are both very honorable, but she will get paid more. Now, if the man is irresponsible with his money that is a different story. Women need to look beyond the wallet and see the whole picture. Careers and money can come and go, but the morals stay.

[Celtero]

That'd be nice if they actually did so. Unfortunately, what's gonna happen is they're gonna fuck around with studs in their youth and become single cat ladies during their middle-ages onward.

It's what they asked for though. Feminism tricked them into entering the workforce en masse, now men can't be the sole breadwinner anymore because the supply of workers has been saturated.

It's a pretty good source of schadenfreude though. Ladies, have fun with you 9-5 job to feed your family of cats!

[Anonymous]

You have to pay $7 to read the full text, so I can't say anything about the article. However, there are multiple factors about mate choice. A man's income isn't the sole factor. If a man who was not as educated and did not make as much money as you, but had most other facets that made them a positive mate choice was in your life, that is not marrying down. Men don't consider themselves marrying down if a woman is not as educated or makes as much money as they do. So they consider other factors. Women should too. This makes it fairer to men. Be employed. Have goals.

[GD360]

You just opened a tall water of worms. Not surprised this generation is all types of messed up. It's simple, lack of dads teaching their sons how to be men, to many one night stands and baby mama drama. If your a good dad this doesn't apply to you, your a rare breed. But imagine most the population growing up with no dads and a bunch of single mothers or divorced family, mind you some father's actually stay in contact after divorce, but the ones that don't suck. So of course you're going see some sad facts about how the majority of today's men are pretty messed up.

[coachTanthony]

Can of worms is what I do ! LOL

[Anonymous]

I doubt that it is the full picture. Women all over the world are dating less. They are busy finishing their educations, getting established in their careers or starting their own business and enjoying some alone time part of the time. They are probably only dating men they enjoy their company versus just going out with anyone. They don't really have the time.

[TheFlak38]

Women start to date down as they get older. They can be happy if they get a scrap of attention after 40. When they're in their 20's most off them don't even think about marriage. They don't know what this word even means. After 30 they feel their looks fading away and losing all of the attention to the younger generations so they know that the only way to lock down a man is to get married and have children. Of course they are so narcissistic that they want to get married with the richest who will pay the most money after the divorce, maybe even pay their student debts. That's how strong dynamic and independent feminists they are.

[coochie]

mho right here

[AynonOMouse]

Nope. The reason for lower marriage rates is that more men won't get legally married anymore because they don't want women to steal from them with divorce. They are realizing they can have an exclusive LTR, live together, and raise a family together without legal marriage. Any woman that insists on marriage is pretty much admitting she is a thief and wants to abuse men.

I won't get married again. I'm a good loyal guy that never did hook ups/ONS, and I have a good job, can support myself, have medical, vision, and dental benefits and retirement. Hell no I'm not risking getting ripped off.

[JSmuve]

Maybe. If women still want a guy that earns an equal or greater amount of money than them, then the distribution of male income will have to remain unchanged relative to the distribution of female income (i. e. the gender pay gap will have to remain in place or women will have to have 'lesser' careers). Otherwise, you'll have a greater proportion of women vying for a smaller proportion of men and some women will either have to date down or remain single.

[ronaldo75]

Women are in for HELL in the next 5 years when it comes to dating. Especially women over 30. Good solid men essentially have HAD IT with millennial women's bullshit and have given up on dating. We're about to go back in time where young, pretty feminine women are going to get all the good men whlie the bitter miserable late 20s and 30-somethings are going to have to start dating down and dating down HARD. 3RD wave feminism and woke girl power culture inflated women's egos way too much during the 2010s and in the end they're starting to look ordinary and mediocre. You reap what sow.

[Syrian_survivor]

Marriage is declining because it's more and more becoming a tool of manipulation, it has no real purpose other than the woman chaining the man and making a somewhat stronger bond so maybe it can decrease chances of children being raised by a seperated couple.

Premartial sex is normal these days, everything a married couple could do now any 2 people can do, it's pointless because of lack of morals, marriage is irrelevant and it's starting to look bad for most people, for some reason the government thinks if they make marriages risky, then it'll guarantee a stronger bond between members of a family, lol.

[DWornock]

Young ladies have plenty of opportunities to marry equals and better from ages 18 to 23. However, at that age, they reject suitable guys that would marry them to chase after high income, good looking hot guy that are more than happy to fuck them but only marry someone within their league. By age 28, after a dozen going nowhere relationships, the ladies finally learn that men fuck down but don't marry down. However, by then it is too late. They have lost their bloom and the guys they could have married when they were 5 to 10 years younger, are seeking some sexy fresh young thing; not some jaded hide that has fucked a dozen or more guys.

[Anonymous]

You say "date down" i say " be realistic".
The simple reason women are single or can't find their "forever" is simply because their demands are too high. Thwy want the love rhey want but they want it on THEIR terms. Life just doesn't typically work that way that's all. Some where along the line if you're not finding what you want you have to make cone concessions, this DOES NOT mean settle! It means taking a good look at yourself in the mirror and being honest with yourself.
The simple truth is most the women that find their "forever" simply are better women. They actually care about their partner. They're a team, not at odds with eachother. They understand when he succeeds she succeeds. She's a well of strength for him. And when things get rough she doesn't give up on him and look for something better.

[coachTanthony]

If they take a good look in the mirror and like what they see then what? Is it possible Men today are not meeting the expectations of today's woman?

[Opinion Owner]

Many aren't i'm not going to deny that. But i think many women have a skewed view of what a "man" is these days

[coachTanthony]

Oh no doubt! Totally agree.

[Justtoobusy]

Here is a shocker. I agree. Women have spent the last 19 years working so hard to establish our power in the work force and home we have demasculinized men and forced them to except it. We have caused a new breed of "she can do it so I don't have to" guys. Now we have the audacity to only want men who are still being men.

[coachTanthony]

@Justtoobusy Makes total sense!