Generally, men don't want a helpless child that can't take care of themselves during the course of a normal day - if you're an adult, you should be able to do normal adult things yourself: cook, clean, laundry, drive (unless you're in a city where public transportation is the norm - which isn't the majority of the US), put gas in your car, and things like that. I wouldn't call that "independent" - I'd just call that being an adult, and men should be able to do these kinds of things too.
Men ALSO do not want "independent women" in the modern, Feminist sense of the phrase - the "anything men can do, women can do better"/"the future is female" kind of idea. In the first place, that's almost never actually TRUE - such women usually still rely on men all the time, but they're either paying the men or they have male "friends" just to have someone to do hard/heavy/dirty chores for them. In the second place, such women usually have little if any appreciation for all the work men do and all the things men have provided (and continue to provide) to society, and they tend to have no respect for men in general. That's insulting and spiteful, and who wants that?
Men want to be needed, and we want to be useful, but we also want to be appreciated and respected when we are. That doesn't mean we want to be interrupted every 3 minutes to get you something you could easily get yourself, but we DO want to help when there's some hard work to do or when there's something involving safely, or if things need to be built or repaired. That doesn't mean you can't help - we welcome help if you are actually help and not just in the way - but we want to be useful. And when we are, we like some genuine appreciation - a sincere thank you is usually enough, but a cold drink, maybe a sandwich, or a plate of cookies or something might be nice sometimes too.
The vast majority of men want FEMININE women - I don't think I've ever in my life heard a man who wanted a woman who was more masculine or a "girl boss" - and we want women who appreciate when WE men are masculine. Being feminine isn't the same as being helpless or useless - it's about acknowledging that some tasks are better suited for men or women if it's not an emergency. In an emergency, you have to do what you can do to get through it, but in an ordinary day, we work best when we work as a TEAM, with each team member doing the jobs they are best at and best suited to, and supporting each other.
Seems normal. She would want help only after she trusts him, right?
I grew up just like she did. I can really relate to having to be independent even in the face of needing help with some things.
Just let her do her own thing. Please don't try to change her. It took her her entire life to get to where she is and it's the only way she wants to be.
If you try to change her independence that is so much a part of her, she just might resent it and you, and go and hide behind the fortress she has built for herself and pull up the draw bridge.
So, just let her be who she is. She has had to be that way just like I had to for the same reasons she has.
If you would like to DM me about knowing more about what she's about or need some questions answered just feel free to DM me. Ok?
Ya know I thought a guy was asking this question until I just looked and now I can't delete my answer.
So, please just don't pay attention to it.
How guys viewed me in the past, well, they kinda liked that I was so independent and not a clingy woman, so it was kind of a relief that you are a grown up and he doesn't have to raise you.
But, just once in awhile it wouldn't hurt if you asked him to help you with something, like heavy lifting something.
I am getting older now and have been independent as hell all of my life until it caught up with me
I wore my body out doing more than I should have. So, please don't make the same mistake as I did.
I'm independent by heart, no childhood trauma involved... of course, there are still areas, where I could see a man doing his job but I would keep them to myself :D
most men I met in my life appreciated this independence and still tried to take care of me :D it caused quarrels until we agreed on areas which were mine to take care of and those where they could help... my partners were rather cool about it...
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I absolutely love a woman like that because I know that sometimes she does need help and just the look in her eyes as she's doing something would tell you everything... And without a word I would just go over and take over and around about way that's still letting her lead no I think that's hot I really like that
Some guys like it and some don't. Simple.
Depends largely on where the guy is from. I'm originally from Southern Virginia but moved to Northeast Ohio for ajob about 7 years ago. I can say that in the south women are different. By that I mean I work with several women who would be called independent. All are single, I do not believe any of them have children. All have the same MO from what I know of them. They are went to college as I did to seek a degree. Once out of college they chose to seek their career and had little time for much else. Now those I work with are between the ages of 35 to 45, their biological clocks running out or already ran out. They seem to have a bitterness in ways when talking with those of us who have kids, in that they wish they took time to have kids. However they are so dedicated to their careers they literally admit they have no personnel life at all. Also the independent women in Ohio they are in many cases more manly acting than the men are here. Seriously the women here I find to be stronger me tally and emotionally and very manly where as women from the South regardless of career they will make time for a family and a personnel life and view a career as nothing more than how they choose to care for their family. Southern women demand a lot from their men and like the man to be the hard working head of the family. My sister still lives in Virginia, she graduated college got her career going then got married had kids, still managed to work as a guidance counselor at a high school while being a mother of two and a wife. Where as most Northern women at least in Ohio seem to be with go all out for career with no time for a personnel life, or they have a family but their work still ranks more important than family. To me this is odd having grew up in the South. I really feel Independent women in the North really don't care about relationships at all or having a family. They mainly only care about their career and money. Little. else. This is the opposite with Southern Women who all seem to want marriage, a family so on no matter what their career is. But at the same time I will say it's like a totally different culture between Ohio and where I grew up in Virginia. Amen view life different also.
I don't understand. Are women supposed to be dependent on someone and act helpless?
I respect a woman to feels competent and confronts challenges.
An independent woman can take care of herself. That doesn't mean that she wants to be alone. Its the same with men.
In a healthy relationship and man and woman help each other. It's not a macho contest. They can still admire each other's masculinity and femininity and appreciate teamwork. They are touched by gestures of love, adoration, kindness and tenderness.
None of my girlfriends or my wife needed stuff from me. They wanted me as a partner and companion.
@MrOracle. I read your post, but I think you were describing a certain type of extreme woman. "Anything men can do, women can do better"/"the future is female." I don't think many of those exist in real life.
You mentioned cooking, cleaning, laundry, and driving. In other words, "women's work". But what about education, professional skills, earning income and supporting themselves. Is there something that prevents women from being able to do home repairs or even use tools and build things?
None of that makes a woman un-feminine unless she normally dresses like a plumber.
Women are as smart as men. They are just not as strong. But every job doesn't require brute strength.
I absolutely agree that if feels wonderful to be appreciated. But I don't know why a man's masculinity would be threatened by a woman who was handy.
I have a funny story about appreciation.
I had arranged a date with my future wife. We met at a restaurant. We immediately clicked. Our conversation was so effortless that time disappeared.
All of a sudden, I felt something bumping my foot and realized that the waiter was vacuuming under our table. The restaurant was closed.
So we walked to our cars in the restaurant parking lot and continued to chat.
When we were ready to leave, we discovered that the gate had been locked.
So I hopped over the 6' cinder block wall and got someone from the restaurant to let us out.
It wasn't a big deal to me at all. But later, when she told her friends about how we first met, she acted like Superman had rescued her. And she meant it. She was in awe. I was her hero. LOL
It's like the cliche' of a southern belle batting her eyes and saying "Thank heaven you arrived! I'm just a little ol' gal and don't know what I ever would have done without a big, strong handsome man to save me."
It made my chest puff out. I felt ten feet tall even though I really hadn't done anything.
Guys do love that shit.
But I'm sure women thrive on praise for more than cooking and doing laundry.
Why can't men and women admire each other without needing to be superior?
"I read your post, but I think you were describing a certain type of extreme woman. "Anything men can do, women can do better"/"the future is female." I don't think many of those exist in real life."
There aren't many in YOUR generation, but you clearly haven't been talking to many women from their teens to their 30s. There's a VASTLY different attitude and it's the majority of women in those generations.
"You mentioned cooking, cleaning, laundry, and driving. In other words, "women's work". But what about education, professional skills, earning income and supporting themselves. Is there something that prevents women from being able to do home repairs or even use tools and build things?"
You'd be shocked at how few Millennial and Gen-Z women know how to cook, or do laundry, or even clean. And how even those who do feel like they're being put upon to do so.
And while no one is saying that having an education or an income is a bad thing, "modern (Feminist) women" have been taught to value and prioritize their education and career at the expense of a relationship, marriage, or family - in fact, they're taught that such things should either be avoided or pushed off until much later in life. But when women burn through nearly their entire fertility window, and have spent their teens and 20s chasing the top 5% guys who will bang them but never give them a relationship, and then they're 33 with 50 past partners and tons of trauma and baggage, they're not only not going to get a top 5% man, but they're not going to get a man in the top 40% - most of whom she believes she'd be "settling" for. And so she's likely to end up single and childless. If that was a tiny percentage of women - as has always been the case - no big deal, but when it's 50-60% of women, that's a HUGE problem - that's the kind of thing that ends entire civilizations. And while the women may love it in their 20s, they're going to spend the last 2/3 of their lives miserable and bitter and afraid, and that's not good for society either. That's how Karens are made.
@MrOracle. Where do you get this information about the younger generation? You're closer to my generation.
I think women today simply have more opportunity, the same opportunities that men always had. Why should they opt for complete dependence on men as they did before they had such opportunities?
I don't know why some guys are butt hurt about that. This generation of men never experienced the mythical Ozzy and Harriet, Leave it to Beaver, "traditional" lifestyle. Is it possible that these type of guys want a wife to have their babies but also cook, clean and do their laundry like their mommies did for them?
Why can't men also do some domestic work and be equal partners?
And I disagree that young women chase the top 5%. That's manophere nonsense by materialistic guys who want the top 5% of women.
When I'm out in public, I see plenty of young couples who are not Chads and Tracies.
I think there are a lot of guys and gals who care more about personality that looks and status.
"Where do you get this information about the younger generation? You're closer to my generation."
I have friends and and family and I go to parties and functions and I talk to people. I've always been one of those people that everyone comes to for information and advice, so I talk to a lot of people from a lot of backgrounds.
"I think women today simply have more opportunity, the same opportunities that men always had. Why should they opt for complete dependence on men as they did before they had such opportunities?"
It depends on what they want. But they can't have it all, nor can they have it all on their own terms.
The simple fact is that if they choose to prioritize education and career through their 20s, and don't look for a serious relationship until their 30s, they're going to find that few men take them seriously. Few men want to start a family with a woman in her mid-to-late 30s - I'm not saying zero men, but the majority do not. And most women today are not taught that when they choose to pursue education and career during their fertility window, they are effectively choosing against having a family, and perhaps even a relationship at all.
"Why can't men also do some domestic work and be equal partners?"
They can, and many do, but far too many women today expect all the benefits and privileges that come with a traditional man, and expect their man to do all of the things men have traditionally done, while SHE is a modern woman who doesn't cook, doesn't clean, doesn't have kids, and who keeps her own money for herself. In other words, all the benefits, and none of the responsibilities.
This is one big reason why 42% of men under 35 have completely left the dating market - they don't pursue women AT ALL - because they don't feel that most women today are "relationship material." Far too many expect an Instagram lifestyle (which is largely fake even for the "influencers" who pretend to be living it) or at least something close to it.
It would be different if modern women were looking for a true "equals" relationship where bills and responsibilities were split evenly (not necessarily exactly the same, but of essentially equal value), but that's just not how women operate today. They're too used to shopping for a "better deal" and as soon as they find it, they're gone.
I'm sure you've seen this around the Internet - it's been "remixed" into tons of songs - but it's become a meme for a reason: it's the attitude of a LOT of women:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/h1MYeR-Xql4
Sure, maybe not a girl who grew up on a farm in Iowa, but most girls in a major city or suburb of a major city seem to want a top 5% guy, even though they THINK what they're asking for is "only a little above average."
Someone just posted here today that he's been on 200 dates over the last year, but nearly no second dates. And, okay, maybe he's not the most handsome or most smooth or most successful, but 200? How can that be? It's because those girls were all looking for some version of Chad, and when he wasn't it, they disappeared.
Dating apps have absolutely DESTROYED women by turbo-charging their hypergamy. It gives them "virtual" access to celebrities, athletes, and multi-millionaires from around the world - and sometimes even "dates" with those men - and that means a guy who is objectively a 7/10 might as well be a 1 to her, because she wants one of THOSE guys. Doesn't matter if they bang 20 new girls a week. Doesn't matter if they are 1000 or even 10,000 miles away - she can see and talk to them, and they're exciting and successful and wealthy and live a high lifestyle, so she wants them. And if not that, something very, very close to it.
I wanna give a couple of examples in my life…
I remember this one woman at my job… steel mill… very male oriented hard work. Anywho. She was struggling so I reached out to help her and she pulls her hand away so I couldn’t help… Then When she couldn’t do it she threw the clamp down the stairs with the hot bars because she was pissed. She was too proud to accept help from me and I hated her ever since.
I see older folks and women at the feed store all the time. I help them with chicken feed cause it’s heavy. That feeling I get from helping them makes me feel value able to someone.
By accepting help you let me feel valued by denying my help you make me feel unnecessary. It’s my ego for sure but it’s the biggest thing we men have. Feeding our ego is how you tame men and train them to protect and provide. It sounds bad but we use carrot and stick in all part of life… Why shouldn’t we here.
I hate this black and white idea that you're either fully independent, dependent or interdependent.
I am able to cook and clean everyday if need be - independent. Yet, I choose to allow my loved ones to take on the role of Chef, accepting the role of butler cleaning up afterwards - interdependent. There are days during that chore where I might not feel up for cleaning or cooking - dependence
Independence flows like water. Time and trust reshapes it into a valley or a lake. In short, if my girl only ever took the path of complete independence; I would assume she doesn't trust me and that the relationship doesn't mean as much to her as it did to me
Trauma is my reason as well. From a young age I had to learn to do stuff on my own and even when I got into a relationship with someone who I believed would take care of me he didn't and wouldn't help very much when I asked for help. The person I'm seeing now will do things for me without me asking. Of he didn't I would still be doing everything myself.
Listen a guy who determines whether or not he would be with a woman based on how much she needs his help, is not a decent guy. There are men out there who would only marry a woman who has 0% independence such as housewives. I have met some men who hate on women who invest or have decent sized savings accounts of their own. Trust me, you are better off without these types of men.
It depends whether she's actually independent or not. a lot of women call themselves independent and that many times is just "womanspeak" for "I am a biznatch".
I would say her best bet is if a woman is NOT the latter is to choose a man who is an excellent communicator and has oodles of patience. Because no man can read minds. But a man who is a good communicator has better odds of picking up on subtle clues.
As with ANYBODY success is ultimately going to fall on how good of a match she picks to her. Most women fail because they simply don't choose well. Trauma or not a woman has to OWN who she is and her shortcomings.
Women who are genuinely independent. I know that she wants me and she needs me for love, a emotional connection, and someone to share her life with. Not a woman who can’t wipe her own ass those type of women are who use men.
It’s not even sone type of trauma. Some women are just amazing.
Wtf is the difference between an independent woman and a responsible adult? Paying your bills and supporting yourself is what adults do. It's not anything special.
I think an independent woman is an amazing thing because she would definitely be able to be a supportive figer in any relationship or friendship especially if another person might be going through the same thing
Whether or not a woman was forced to become independent is irrelevant. What matters is how she treats her man. As a self-respecting man, I have no need for a woman who doesn't need me back. That's not a recipe for a healthy and fulfilling relationship.
I had childhood trauma and I tried to be independent for years but now I need help with everything especially my bills and rent and I’m getting ready to stop working but I won’t have any income so I’m looking for a man to help me.
I have trauma too, like used to do everything by myself. That’s why i never ask anyone for help. Good intentions will get you a good way.
@itsannalee 💕
I hope you’re right 🤷♀️💯
someone who can never ask for a help is still a red flag... its shows a lack of communication that will never be addressed
Why would a man want to support and protect a woman who has no need of him?
Oh, don't you know? Why, they are a threat to us manly men.😅😅😂🤣🤣🤣
I don't mix with such women, because they simply claim that they don't need men, why would i be with someone who keeps repeating "i don't need you"
She can live and die by herself!
Healthy romantic relationships are based on needing each other, and meeting each other's needs. A good man who doesn't feel needed in a relationship will feel useless and won't be around for long.
Step in when she genuinely needs it and when it comes to house work, do it with her by delegating our focus chores.
Not asking for help when you need it and help is available is what hammerheads do
As a normal adult.
I see them as real independent women
Don’t care.
That's a man.
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