Urgently Needed Changes in American Higher Education

[Jimrat86]

It's well understood that we have successfully devalued the college degree by letting anyone and everyone into schools they have no business being in and handing them outrageous loans they could never hope to pay off to do so. You can tack on a lack of high school interest in offering alternative information to kids such as info pertaining to trade, vocational and occupational schools.

The choice to go to a 4 year institution is still highly favored by academic advisers with little to no insight into the real work force. This leads to many students having an attitude that they are "above" working jobs like construction, plumbing, carpentry etc... because they hold a degree. It all amounts to an untapped workforce, since many of these graduates could have become more competitive in the workforce if they learned actual hard skills in schools as opposed to useless rhetoric such as theory, and coursework in areas that do not lead to jobs such as general studies.

I'll list a few things I'd like to see happen in the realm of U.S. education, then I'd like you guys to give me a few you think would benefit higher ed.

1. Remove tenure from the institutions and hold professors responsible for providing more hands-on opportunities to students.

Such as making connections and getting their feet in the door in the communities local to their schools. The way this process would be carried out certainly would vary depending on the major/field of interest, but tenure just brings about a lack of incentive for profs to focus on anything but their own personal research, which they vehemently defend for the sake of "academic freedom". They should not be left to their own devices because they won't do their job otherwise.

2. The primary focus should be job placement.

I have looked at several criteria such as the Princeton Review and have not found one list that places job placement rate and salary even close to the top of the list. Why? Shouldn't that be the number one priority? Place more of an emphasis on that, and less on "quality of life" for students attending the schools.

3. This one piggybacks on number 2. Colleges spending habits are pitifully lacking in emphasis on things essential to education.

Boston U. has a lazy river. Bradley U. has an "alumni" building with expensive gargoyles. Universities heavily spend on additional housing so they can increase enrollment. Oversight is typically seen as meddling in academic affairs, but it is a lack of any oversight that has gotten us into this mess in the first place. Allowing colleges to continue to wastefully spend money on athletics, fancy recreational buildings and other endeavors likely to entice parents to send their kids to their school is a short-sighted, business-minded and greed-driven tactic that continues to produce unqualified job seekers with unmanageable student loan debt. If they don't spend say, X amount of tuition dollars in providing quality education and real world experience, why should they be allowed to make so much money?

4. If colleges want to run themselves like businesses, they should have to be held to the same standards that businesses are held to.

Any logical business model suggests that in order to sell a product, the product must be good. Following this model by way of trimming the fat so to speak, may cut costs by eliminating jobs held by overpaid people like career advisors, who have little to no knowledge pertaining to what students by major need to do in order to get their feet in the door in their chosen field. Get rid of job titles like this, as well as useless degrees like art history or general education.

5. Have a way of flushing out transparent information about university spending, data pertaining to how grads are doing several years after school, and other things people might need to know when deciding whether or not college is right for them.

The staff who work in academia never want to be honest about these things, so a third party research firm or group of some kind should be tasked with doing this. Have kids and their parents be aware of these things, and what you will see is a shift away from everyone going to school, over to many deciding to forego the experience.

This is a lot to read, and I have more but I think I'll stop for now and open the discussion up to you guys. What are your thoughts?

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

You listed a lot of symptoms with little solutions. Like #1. Teachers are supposed to teach, not make sure and vet students to line them up with experience. They have career centers for that at most schools. However, the problem is that they’re generally not very good at assisting students although, like myself, many students didn’t capitalize on using them. And these career centers rarely instill the need for them beyond and most go because of nagging parents.

A lot of the problems are generally external. Especially for #2 and 4. That has little to do with the colleges themselves, but the way most businesses are run. Most graduates can attest to the “entry level job” bullshit. The idea that every person fresh outta college should have 5 years experience, be fluent in mandarin, 3 years of sap, know how to do a backflip and have 4 years working in the corporate world already... all for the salary of 33k, when the cost of living is 45k. And that doesn’t factor in things like wealth inequality, taxing discrepancies and more.

I can keep going on. but I’ll stop. I will say that for #3, that generally has to do more with donations from boosters and alumni than taxpayer and tuition money for things being built. Then again, what they don’t pay in construction is made up for in overhead and maintenance.

[Jimrat86]

1. With the student loan debt bubble about to burst, it will be the taxpayers who will have to foot the bill since that is what always happens.
2. There are various ways colleges collect revenue. Endowments, tuition, grants, and yes, donations. If you look into the topic to even a small extent, you will find that several other researchers have dug up info pertaining to questionable use of funds, wasteful spending, and tax loophole tactics engaged in by many MANY Universities. Currently, some of the top ivy leagues are being investigated for their use of endowments. Yale was caught spending a whopping $480 Million to expand their endowments, while only $170 million on efforts to make college affordable.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

I know. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but these aren’t causes as much as they are symptoms. Like you brought up with the misappropriation of funds. There’s a thing where only 5 or 6 football programs generate positive revenue. A lot of that is by design because schools get tax write offs or some shit. Basically, they purposely take that loss because they end up making more money from it. I don’t remember the details and I’m lazy. Using Ivy League schools is a poor example. Ivy League schools (and most private school) are the exception cause they’re private. Ivy League schools, particularly, also have the benefit of a lot of things such as reputation, connections to wealth and powerful assets, longevity, and much more. Harvard and Yale have enough in endowments to cover their student populations for 4 years free tuition and still not lose money or some ridiculous stat. They aren’t taxed by the state and operate differently than state schools... which is obviously state funded.

[Jimrat86]

The amount of funding for state schools is the least it has ever been due to a lack of funding by the government. That has continues to cause schools to raise tuition.
I used an Ivy league school as an example, but the same logic applies to private schools as well. If public schools start to get their act together, private schools many, not all, would have to follow suit.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

I know, and that’s a symptom. We know it’s a symptom is because it’s the lowest it’s ever been and higher education is the highest it’s ever been. That suggests that taxation and tuition aren’t scaled, which suggests that income isn’t scaled, which we know is true given that we know that income inequality is getting exponentially worse. Therefore, we can conclude that income inequality is a cause of higher tuition because people can’t afford higher taxes, which in turn causes higher tuition that people can’t pay for and can’t/don’t want to invest. That’s what I mean by cause vs symptom.

That public/private thing makes no sense. Public schools are funded by the state. They’re also bound to restrictions on how many students they can take based on the percentage they enroll. Private schools can do what the shit they want. Ivy League schools are separate from most private schools since they are in such high demand they can afford to take 5% of applicants for many reasons.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

An analogy to that Ivy League school thing would be like saying if euroleague could get their shit together, then the nba would have to follow what the euroleague is doing... sorry, but the nba is the nba. Ivy leagues don’t have high tuition from inflation, they have high tuition cause they’re in high demand. Moreover, their pool comes generally from legacy or wealth as much (if not more) than based on actual intelligence.

[Jimrat86]

Ivy league, public and private have different ways of operating but by and large are all guilty of a number of activities that put overpaid administratives, and lazy teaching staff before the needs of their students. Ivy league in high demand?
None of the universities will be if we don't put the screws to them on how many adjuncts they hire, how much overbloating on admin positions raise tuition, and how they waste taxpayers money. I'm listing things that MUST be done to prevent higher ed from collapsing so if you would like to cherry pick and over analyze micro points I have made like analogies, I fear that you are missing the big picture.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

I feel like I’m talking in circles. I don’t like repeating myself... I literally explained all of what you just said...

[Jimrat86]

Then I don't understand what it is you want from me.

[Jimrat86]

It's not that complicated:
Higher Ed is the only industry exempt from following the laws governing basic economics. There are a number of causes, as I listed why this happens. Remove the causes and hold them to the same standard we hold other businesses or make education free.

[jacquesvol]

Jimrat86 Higher Ed is NOT an industry. It serves the country.

[Jimrat86]

Education is arguably a self serving profit focused industry.
Walk any public or private campus to see the expansion efforts in the forms of wasteful spending they choose to partake in.
E
I have already given you stubborn people facts. FACTS that prove my point. If you strongly think otherwise, write up your own mytake using real proof.
I've cited instances I have found written in books by authors with phd's who have worked in education themselves (Dr Robert Iosue and Frank Mussano, who wrote College Unbound: Four Decades of Financial Deception; Alan Collinge who wrote The Student Loan Scam).
You guys just want to stubbornly disagree because you do not want to believe something outside your comfort zone. It is that, or I hit home with you in some way. Regardless, I believe people deserve to know about corruption like this. And sadly, education is just as guilty of it. Period. So quit trolling.

[jacquesvol]

@Other_Tommy_Wiseau
Education should NOT be a profit industry. Trump did it with his university and it went belly up.
Education serves the whole country, much more than an aircraft carrier does.
BUT the US govt prefers to spend your tax $ on aircraft carriers and ICBMs.

[Jimrat86]

@jacquesvol There are so many reasons you are wrong.
I have identified several examples proving why higher ed in the US DOED NOT serve it's students.
I used examples cited by authors who worked in higher ed for years.
If you dont agree you can go write a mytake proving otherwise.
By and large, the poor economic situation and lack of jobs related to majors are proof that education is failing us.
It will be satisfying to watch as these greedy institutions crumble when the student loan bubble bursts and their weak curriculum becomes ultimately obselete.

[jacquesvol]

@Jimrat86

[jacquesvol]

@Jimrat86 by going to college, you do not buy a job.

[Jimrat86]

@jacquesvol Well sure. It isn't guaranteed.
But colleges are operating on a very weird business model: The cost goes up as the value of the product goes down.
Name any other businees type that can get away with that.
The more people we put to work, the better off we will be economically.
I think higher ed should make an effort of producibg more skilled and job-ready applicants, instead of just seeing them as dollar signs.

[jacquesvol]

In Europe too, companies insist with the govt to change the school system, so they can hire job-ready applicants and save on training in the company.
Since every company is different, that works ONLY for rather low skill jobs.
For the higher qualification jobs employees still have to be trained in the company. The broader their education is, the faster they'll learn.

[Anonymous]

I definitely agree with "Any logical business model suggests that in order to sell a product, the product must be good."
I clearly remember back in my time before the WWW and numerous rating websites, in a meeting in our university, one of my classmates suggested that students should be able to rate their professors in an organized manner.
He was met with great resistance, and what's worse almost expelled: "How dare a student think he is good enough to rate a PROFESSOR!"
Why not? Isn't a student PAYING to receive knowledge, instruction, and a degree?
It happened just last year in a highschool too. One of the seniors who happened to win several educational awards dared to say that one of the teachers isn't teaching well. She ended up in the principal's office and after that in the counselor's office, was technically intimidated and her parents were involved. The result was that the school told hee it was her fault and that she needed some tutoring.

[jacquesvol]

Indeed, which students know enough about all of it to rate a professor with a ph. dr, many years of studies, peer evaluated papers and experience?
All a student can say is "I like that professor" or "I dislike that professor"

[Opinion Owner]

@jacquesvol There are textbooks, syllabus, guidelines, and exams. If I'm a hardworking student with a sound knowledge foundation, I should be able to succeed. It's not rocket science.
The point is if my professor guides and advises me correctly, and communicates the concepts efficiently, I should be able to reach predictable results. Emphasis on "predictable". Note the word "predictable". It is very important.
If that happens, under the circumstances mentioned, I can say the instructor has done their job well.

[Opinion Owner]

If there was no way "to know enough to rate a professor" then that means the professor is free to cheat you out of your tuition? It doesn't make sense.
But the important thing is that you caught & mentioned the culprit: the skewed perception that you can not rate a professor, simply because they know more than you. Wouldn't that give them limitless power and leave you at their mercy? There's got to be some sort of checks and balances, a power equal to theirs that is on the opposing side.
By the way, if you go to the mechanic's, or to a doctor, or lawyer, or buy any kind of service or merchandise, do you necessarily have to be an expert in those fields to know whether what they did for you or sold to you works? Of course that would be impossible.

[Opinion Owner]

In instances where there is no way to tell until a failure happens & disaster strikes, there are regulative organizations that make sure you get what you pay for, e. g. the Better Business Bureau, FDA, and any office that enforces codes & regulations.
But because professors are up against a very young and inexperienced clientele, and they are much smarter than most of the students, they have managed to instill this common misconception and create a taboo so that students don't even DARE to THINK about evaluating and rating their professor's competency, let alone questioning them.
And that is how corruption was born!
I seriously thank you for pointing out this delicate yet very important matter.

[Opinion Owner]

It's called "intimidation", a very good word.

[jacquesvol]

Your professors are not reponsible for their students' failures. Their students are responsible.

[Opinion Owner]

@jacquesvol That is also another skewed perception. Lol. I get what you're trying to say though. It is their job to provide you with correct feedback regarding your knowledge level, and if you are not behind in your studies, to clearly communicate a new subject to you.
Of course the only thing that you need to do is practice and study.

[jacquesvol]

Working to earn money , adapting to situations and requirements doesn't stop when you get your degree.

[Opinion Owner]

@jacquesvol
True. At least I think so.

[Opinion Owner]

I forgot to mention. I have had good professors and bad ones. I'm still the same person. So there must be a difference between the two professors that I am getting good grades with one, and poor grades with the other.

[Opinion Owner]

I've actually once had two different professors explain the exact same electronic device, because the two class syllabi overlapped a bit. One of them took the entire 2 hours to explain it, and in the end nobody got it. The other just threw in a 5 minute description at the end of the class, and not only did everybody, or at least those who were motivated, understand, but we all noticed it was a very simple concept after all, and many of my classmates still remember it well after decades.

[jacquesvol]

I too had good professors and others. The most interesting one was 'just a professor.' The others were Secretary of State, Attorney General, two other members of govt, a CEO of a big bank, a well known expert in criminal psychiatry, and still, the most interesting one was 'just a professor.'
Looking back, the psychiatrist was the worst.

[Opinion Owner]

@jacquesvol WOW! What did you study?

[jacquesvol]

International politics , Law and economy.

[Opinion Owner]

@jacquesvol just curious, ha ha, do you have a degree?

[jacquesvol]

Masters + post masters.

[Opinion Owner]

@jacquesvol wow! Good job!

[Jimrat86]

@jacquesvol The number one priority in the rating should be how better prepared he/she feels in the job market, since job placement should be primary focus. I get that this won't apply in gen eds, but then again gen eds are a waste

[Jimrat86]

@jacquesvol Working then also should not stop in the form of tenure that allows profs to take paid lengthy sabbaticals while poorly paid adjuncts do their job for them.
You want student grads to be responsible but fail to acknowledge that that standard does not apply to higher ed staff.

[Jimrat86]

Let's not forget to mention the corrupt department of education who allow the education racket to continue because in part, they profit from it.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I knew one girl who was almost expelled, because she told her history teacher that he was teaching factually inaccurate information. She finally found a historian with a PhD to tell her teacher, that she was right.
If I'm honest, I don't know how some teachers are teachers. Especially history teachers

[Opinion Owner]

@ZeussLightningBolt Great idea! Pitch them against each other!

[demonics]

Couple of things: (I agree will all points)
You will inevitably create a backlash of epic proportions if one for more of these is ever implemented.

1. Should colleges ever have to answer for millions of grads not being able to find work in X field of study would inevitably cause a push back from X field of study. At my university, there were entire sections of the campus I would do away with as they were A. Make work jobs and gen ed requirements for previous generations of students who didn't want to get real jobs PRODUCING something. You get rid of those classes and degree programs, there goes half the universities income. B. Some students just don't want to work hard, and PRODUCE, they want to graduate and immediately start dictating to society. I. e. teachers, poly sci majors. You're effing 21 and you want to TEACH? Or make policy? Your life thus far has been lived in the fake environment called k-12, you know nothing of the outside world!

2. Information regarding degree programs that have a greater than average employment outlook, is already available here > https://www.bls.gov/ < But by the time you're in college, declared a major and paid $20,000 it's already too late. I hear it all the time, "well I'm two classes away from an associates, and those are useless so I might as well finish the whole four years." Your high schools should be giving out this information freshman year!. Which leads to the biggest problem of all...

Education is a trillion dollar industry, millions of jobs would be lost if people suddenly dropped useless degree programs, changed majors and high schools led the charge against useless majors. Why are women and girls majoring in trash that A. has no ob attached to it (gender studies, English, sociology etc) or requires a decade of investment in order to become lucrative (psychology, biology, etc) Where are the goddamn nurses? Its a four year degree, rote memorization and pays above the national average income, and you work two frickin days a week!

Lastly, government and higher education go together like beans and rice, hence your tuition rates. If your government wants little flunkies and paper pushers instead of thinkers and doers, they just write a check to support scholarships for X, meanwhile EVIL corporations do the same for ACTUAL productive degrees. My school was big on petroleum engineering and Exxon was doling out the big bucks for grads, to make $40-60 upn graduating. Its a no brainer, stop majoring in BS!

[Jimrat86]

You make some great points. The issue with the bs degrees, and loans lies mostly in ignorance. 18-19 year old kids have little to no financial literacy, thereby they won't fully understand that (corrupt) lending process. Private schools market heavily to parents and their kids in efforts to entice them. I couldn't care less how many educators lose their jobs if you eliminate worthless programs. Screw em. They don't to earn a handsome salary, sit at a desk, attend countless seminars during their 2 month long sabbaticles anyway. Germany does not charge for education. Rather, they weed out flunkies who do not want to work hard. Yet we have those who did everything they were suppose to do and find themselves in unmanageable debt in a system fundamentally designed to provide them with no protections whatsoever. A lot of people are to blame for this, but by and large, I don't think most of the kids are.

[10dsw]

Oh don't worry lol. Nursing is extremely competitive at my university. Also where I live nurses work 12-14 hour shifts 4 days a week (my ex was an RN).

[Max_winner1]

YOU gota be fucking joking me!
Generation *LOST* and the privileged for doing no work!

You people who claim it is the higher educations fault that your poor asses got duped in a school business that claimed a great future once you finished the studies at college or University?
PLEASE! Cry me a river I would be a rich man if I could fool stupid 18 year olds that you could earn millions if you do this every day on the web for one low payment of $19.99.

Life out side school is not easy! These higher educational institutes are to blamed for turning these training facilities into little snow flake, social justice freaks with homosexuals and such hiding in their safe spaces and only coming out when they demand that political correctness be forced down the whole worlds throats just so we don't "trigger them". "I use them so I don't refer to it, as a He or She so I don't offend those things who do not orient as he or she but at neither".

Finally take blame for your own stupid mistakes, if you had an idea and thinking "I have fun paying money to make crafts all day at University" and thought that a nice job with a piece of paper stating "I hereby declare *name* a pro at making crafts". I would laugh so hard to say that good job... Did you even think for an instant that you would be a great fit in the arts and crafts section at Walmart!

As far as I am concerned College and University is to weed out those who have what it takes to diversify and make choices to those who sit on their piece of paper in the world of generation lost in hopes that someone will give them a job worthy of their debt and hard work.

Take it from me a pipe liner who welds pipe all day long, we take little virgin college and university monkeys and turn them into real men! We work them hard and we say good bye to those who can't hack it because it's "HARD WORK!". In the end after 4 years in the field these boys are seasoned men and don't give two shitz about your feelings! They are part of the family. Long hours 12 hours a day 6 days a week. They go home with big fat $4,000.00 take home checks and buy their wives wonders that only few rich men could afford.

Pst... if I'm not doing pipe line I'm sitting in a class room getting paid to learn how to do open heart surgery on a nuclear reactor. by the way they don't offer those courses for any doctor.

So it's either you sink or you learn how to swim with the times and they don't wait for you. Missed the bus? To bad better run!

[Jimrat86]

Your lunatic like ravings are not worth the effort it takes to rebuttle EVERY piece of garbage anectode you have crapped out. Clearly you have no idea how our economy overall has crumbled, nor have you even read my article. Troll. Blocked.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

You forgot to mention that universities spend a ton of money to pay for classes and lawyers for illegal Mexicans. And also, ADD people have no place being in universities.
And also, professors care more about Liberal indoctrination and many professors, although highly intelligent do not know how to teach. And they're always hitching about low salaries.

I agree that we need to cut general ed and all those useless Liberal Arts programs, and focus on classes that will actually get you a job. My geography professors had us do projects that got us work experience, but most majors don't.
If someone wants to learn about historic art, they can do so themselves without taking a course, as one study showed that students only retain 5 minute of lecture content.

I agree. The American education system is flawed
We should adopt a more European system or vocational schooling.
But then again, we can't build a nation on plumbing and construction work. Those jobs are for losers and I'm not surprised no one wants them.
We need some intelligent jobs too, to build a nation of intelligent people

[Jimrat86]

If you scroll you will see some of the obnoxious views people like to spew at those looking for positive change. They spread a blanket over the entire community as if we all hold the same views.
I actually despise the hyper liberal agenda colleges keep pushing on kids. They are easily susceptible to brain washing to one direction, when higher ed should be about gaining a multi-lateral grasp of perspectives-not just one.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I agree.. I know. That's why I'm not even reading the other comments.

[jacquesvol]

@ZeussLightningBolt
more European system indeed.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

@jacquesvol I agree. My parents are from Europe and I've always been in support of having a more European system.

[jacquesvol]

Who are ' ADD people' ? Advertising?)

[jacquesvol]

For the cost of two F-35s the govt. could finance study costs of a generation of students.

[jacquesvol]

@Jimrat86 Thus in your opinion, universities aren't conservative enough?

[Jimrat86]

@jacquesvol They should allow open debate in a forum with no bias towards any one side of the fence, and should protect freedom of speech.
I don't think however, that this issue should take priority over other ones, particularly cost and corruption in student aid offices

[sp33d]

What we really need is the kids to understand from the get go that it's not the universities' or the professors'/instructors' job to hold someone's hand.

"Any logical business model suggests that in order to sell a product, the product must be good."
You focus on some very specific (useless, I agree) majors with which you attempt to make it look like this problem runs through the entire education system. It doesn't, rest assured. The prestigious institutes don't earn their status because of their namesake. Keep telling yourself whatever you wish.

"what students by major need to do in order to get their feet in the door in their chosen field"
Everything must be easy and a career advisor must have all the answers. If they don't, they're useless, right? Typical attitude.
A career advisor helps you figure out what MIGHT suit you based on your curriculum. They give you advice, they don't read from your face what your choices in life should be and they certainly don't have to do anything for you. What you have to understand is, people are different. The same advice won't work for everybody. Navigating in the job market requires as much people skills as it does vocational skills.

Can't say anything on #3 or #5, we don't have these problems here.

On the flipside, many kids go on to study something that's "easy" or "popular". Well, no shit we have those majors, it's a sensible business decision to milk those while there's demand. Not exactly an ethical one, but that's secondary.

I'm more willing to believe it's the snowflakes who can't handle pressure and later complain the education system is rigged or what have you.

Nobody forced you to study art history (although, art's historians are prized in Europe - just don't assume you 'll make a good one just because you went through the 5 years and got your master's, anyone can do that)

[Jimrat86]

You don't seem too knowledgable on some of the finer points one could make on the issue.
1. Professors are spending about 1/3 of their time in the classroom as opposed to working to benefit the students who pay their salaries.
2. The Universities do not "Force" anyone to take a bad major, but they still offer it nonetheless. Very conservative minded people typically take the blame the 19 year old students path in their talking points but as I said, this is a structural flaw, not poor decision making. In fact, many majors in the humanities like social science could push students into the hard skills department by offering coursework in microsoft programs, SAS, SPSS and several stastistical software packages. Mine however offered one of these which I took. The rest of my coursework consisted of theory courses I had no choice but to take in order to graduate. This goes along with my issue of tenure-something the education system is responsible for, not the students.

[sp33d]

1. Professors are spending about 1/3 of their time in the classroom as opposed to working to benefit the students who pay their salaries.
What is the fine point you are making, here? The lecturer's job is to deliver lectures. It's not a daycare institute. From my uni days, all the professors I worked with said if anybody has questions or concerns they are more than welcome to address those.
But they don't have to do that.

2. Many majors in the humanities like social science could push students into the hard skills department by offering coursework in microsoft programs, SAS, SPSS and several stastistical software packages.
That, I agree on. It's a lot of wishful thinking, though. What you suggest requires thorough understanding of first order logic, mathematical modelling, database and datastructure theory and most of all, probability theory and statistics. You don't teach that to non math minded people.

[sp33d]

I sort of get what you are aiming for here. You'd rather see students 'learn by doing'. Well, that doesn't work universally. For a chef, that's about the only way. For a statistician, that'll take you nowhere. Theory is important, because that's what work will be based on. If you don't understand your work thoroughly, you are not competent for it.

Learning to use software like SAS or SPSS or some UML-based trinket is a trivial task, indeed.

[Jimrat86]

I'm horrible at math and I learned how to use spss. The biggest problem with spss though, is that employers are moving away from utilizing it due to cost, and I can't envision it being economically feasible for a grad to be able to pay the subscription fee so as to continue honing their craft.
Trust me, college professors are by and large, lazy. Many have good intentions, but greed by the administration gets in the way of program expansion when they misuse funding, the prez makes 7 figures, and the focus is generally on enrollment instead of student learning.

[MagiAlphaOne]

Students need to start demanding their money back when Professors start teaching/talking about Marxism/Socialism. After all, what place does Marx have in a Calculus Class. Also, BEFORE a Student signs up for Loans, they need to speak with someone who can explain just how much of a monthly payment they can afford. I recently saw a video on Youtube of a recent College Graduate. She graduated with a degree in Drama and Communications. Not very marketable degrees! She owes $118,000 and has to pay approx. $900/month. The says that she can't pay the full amount. She only able to pay the interest on the Student Loan. By the way, any plans for getting married and having a baby are gone. She is not marriageable.

[goaded]

What professor has ever talked about Marx in a calculus class? Has there ever been one case?

[MagiAlphaOne]

@goaded , Professor of Mathematics, Rochelle Gutierrez of the University of Illinois has stated that Algebra and Geometry perpetuate “white privilege.” She specializes in “equity issues in mathematics education.” She clearly espouses Cultural Marxism.

Beyond this, Marxism in Public Schools has been happening for some time now. Did you know that there is a "FILM Your Marxist Professors" Facebook Page?

[goaded]

I did not know that.

I don't think it's as common as you would like to make it out to be.

[10dsw]

I'm midway though a doctoral degree in applied mathematics - I work with math profs and medical doctors. I can promise you there's no marxist brainwashing going on anywhere. Most math profs literally think about math 24/7 and don't give a hoot about politics.

[Jimrat86]

The problem here is that often times, colleges are paid kickbacks in exchange for listing monopolistic giants as preferred lenders. The students often have no choice whom to use as their lender.

[pooper89]

Universities are a conspiracy with the main goal being to take your money with no guaranteed job placement

[jacquesvol]

job placement is never guaranteed over here. NEVER. Is it in the US?

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I just graduated and have been sitting at home for 3 months. But it's the employers fault as well
They don't care that you have a degree, they only care if you worked since you were 16

[Jimrat86]

@jacquesvol Where else are student loans treated differently than any other type of loan than in the U. S?

[jacquesvol]

@Jimrat86 in Belgium student loans don't exist. Parents pay the studies. Or students thselves pay them. Study grants exist. Our son got a grant after his mssters, to do his ph. Dr.
I paid most of my studies myself, working jobs.
My wife's parents fuĺly paid her studies. Her dad did a double job.

[Jimrat86]

@jacquesvol US has the number 1 highest assumed cost, zero risks assumed by lenders, zero risks assumed by college and a gov't that profits from students defaulting on loans. It amounts to a very exploitative industry.

[Jimrat86]

Highest cost*
Student loan debt at 1.4 trillion now with highest default rate ever

[jacquesvol]

@Jimrat86 "zero risks assumed by lenders, zero risks assumed by college and a gov't that profits from students defaulting on loans."
If there is a zero risk for lenders or colleges, who gets the bill if students go bankrupt?

[Jimrat86]

@jacquesvol Taxpayers, which is why bankruptcy should never have been removed in the first place. It should teach our govt a lesson that higher ed should not be exempt from economic laws, and student loan lending should not be a monopoly

[jacquesvol]

@Jimrat86 Bankruptcy for private persons was just a loophole to steal from colleges , banks and taxpayers.

[Jimrat86]

@jacquesvol Wrong again.
A paper written by John Pottow points out the lack of a SINGLE piece of empirical evidence supporting the claim that borrowers do this.
The forefathers put UNIFORM bankruptcy protections ahead of even the power to declare war.
Nelnet, and Sallie Mae had collusive partnerships with Universities and Congress, and have crafted a HORRIBLE lending system for borrowers. There is no reason student loan debt should be treated differently than any other type of debt.
What is your next argument?

[jacquesvol]

Bankruptcy for private persons doesn't even exist in Belgium. Bankruptcy is a 100% commercial thing.

[Jimrat86]

@jacquesvol In no way does that present an argument FOR the removal of standard bankruptcy protections for people in the U. S.
Again, please explain why student loans should be exempt from bankruptcy protections.
What economic benefit has this brought about?

[jacquesvol]

Jimrat86 Historically, bankruptcy was 'invented' in Italy (Firenze , Venice, Genoa). When a trader couldn't meet his financial engagements he was thrown out of the chamber of commerce and his desk was destroyed (banca rotta in Italian ) to shame him.
He wasn't ever allowed to trade anymore. It is a 100 % commercial creation thus.

BUT in England (and even sometimes now in the US), people who didn't meet their financial engagements were thrown in prison. (until someone paid their debt, by selling their assets).
Completely different thus.
Private bankruptcy is a heresy.
In France and Belgium it only exists for businesses. Jail for debts was mostly abolished after the French Revolution.
Bankruptcy and avoiding prison for debts are basic Capitalism principles.

[Jimrat86]

@jacquesvol Bankrputcy protections for every type of borrower was enshrined in the constitution by the forefathers.
Let's not forget that many students were never given a choice of who their lender is.
Sallie Mae being the main lender powerhouse, was found guilty of illicit and even ILLEGAL collection abuses carried out onto the borrowers.
Matteo Fontana, a key manager was given a high position in the US DEPT of education, and found guilty of buying and selling shares of stock in a student loan lender. He was given a slap on the wrist essentially.
Additionally, other investigations into student loan interest rate amounts being used to buy lender stocks were conducted and several were found guilty.
The only real evidence of blatent wrong doings exists pertaining to the lenders, not borrowers.
This alone is grounds for student loan forgiveness because of such mismanagement of money, as well as documented criminal history on the part of the lenders.

[jacquesvol]

With the American student loan system you have young peoplforced to enlist as ROTC or starting their career with huge debts.
More grants and cheaper unis would solve it.

[Logorithim]

I'd certainly agree that more of an emphasis should be placed on Teaching Skills for the workplace.

What's now "General Education" should be relegated to high school, and replaced by a new Gen Ed focused on Skills for the digital Economy: programming, math & statistics, desktop publishing and other software applications, and accounting.

[Jimrat86]

Very true. It's time for universities to play catch up. It would seem that they have fallen behind in terms of providing skills in like you said, the digital world. This often results in graduates finding themselves in a bad economy, since employers are demanding more and more for entry level positions. Yet there is no corresponding preparation to meet these demands for the job seekers.

[Anonymous]

I agree. The media also seems to be in collusion with universities to maintain their level of prestige and ability to charge very high tuition rates. When I look at the college rankings released by media outlets, there are lots of categories they're measures on but the rankings themselves seem entirely subjective. Many of the top ranked colleges seem to graduate students who have a high debt load and low earnings 5-10 years after they graduate. If that's the way they're positioning their students in life then how can they continue to maintain such high rankings? They should be measured on how successful they make their students relative to the money they pay for their education (how customers measure other businesses).

[Anonymous]

I back this 100 percent: "4. If colleges want to run themselves like businesses, they should have to be held to the same standards that businesses are held to." since the primary goal to educate has (I believe) been replaced by profit ambitions.

[jacquesvol]

Likethis?
i0.kym-cdn.com/.../b23.jpg

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[jacquesvol]

Encoding problem
https://i.imgur.com/lZ7jPsN.jpg

[Gray-Wisp]

You're on the right track but everything would be solved with just number 4 if you took it a little further. Remove the government completely from education. Now schools must actually compete against each other. You will see lower costs than ever before and chunks and chunks of the "fat" you described gone.

[Jimrat86]

Corruption exists everywhere, including the Department of Education. However I covered that in another article. I disagree. If you leave people to their own devices, they are going to abuse their power. Many legislative acts have forced colleges to teach women's studies and campus awareness seminars regarding rape, yet they do not force them to structure curriculum in a way that provides hands on experience for students. They do compete with one another already. You can just tell by the way schools market themselves. Private schools spend a fortune going out and recruiting kids-giving them false hope and bad information. Oversight is needed because schools are not honest about information they post online. They don't even offer a choice of which lender to use. So while the way it is overseen needs to change (corruption in the lending practices), oversight is still needed.

[Gray-Wisp]

They compete to a very limited extent. When the government is backing you versus one that isn't backed I believe that only encourages private schools to be dishonest about their information since the playing field tips heavily in government backed schools favor. I went to a community one where the refund policy and quality were so bad it was practically a scam.

To say that all of these private colleges go out and lie certainly isn't true. I believe the Department of Education should be abolished. I know this is higher education but I've been to public schools, a charter school, a private school, and then a community hybrid tech college. The closer it is to private the better it is in quality. I'm not saying there aren't any bad private schools (on any level) and I'm not saying there aren't any good public schools (on any level) but privatization is the right way to go if you want something that's a good quality and in the unique case of higher education I bet it'd be at cheaper cost.

[Jimrat86]

Then who is going to demand the profs to do their job and help kids to get the experience they need when they have tenure? You have to practically rape or murder someone to get fired in these institutions. It's also worth mentioning that the government is spending more money on wars overseas than it is on education, which is partly why tuition keeps going up. I only agree with the elements of privatization that would force colleges to up the ante and eliminate useless programs. I don't however advocate the whole "academic" freedom thing. Look how that's turning out.

[BeautifulMind59]

Anything that becomed privatized produces higher quality, only due to the supply and demand rule and becoming strictly competitive. It's not limited to education.

[Gray-Wisp]

If people paid for college themselves I doubt as many would go into "gender studies" or that the market for it is even that big. As far as the government spending money on useless things I don't believe we should have taxes in the first place, but we'd have minimal government spending. I believe on relying primarily on the private sector. If you want more welfare donate to charity or the government's welfare department. If you want a big military donate to the department of defense or something. I also believe in laxer firing laws but ultimately it's up to a business if they wish to fire someone or not.

[BeautifulMind59]

VERY well said!
"Corruption exists everywhere, including the Department of Education... If you leave people to their own devices, they are going to abuse their power... Oversight is needed because schools are not honest about information they post... They don't even offer a choice of which lender to use. So while the way it is overseen needs to change... oversight is still needed."

[genericname85]

are you kidding me? where america is going, you people only need to eat shit and prokreate and then later hold a gun. thats all trump wants you for. education only cuts back on war budget.

[jacquesvol]

@genericname85 I hope this was sarcasm

[genericname85]

@jacquesvol i wish it wasn't. i mean when was the last time education budget was not the first thing cut when the military or really any other departement needed some more funding? look at American universities. look how many chairs at universities or graduate students are still americans. the numbers are alarmingly low. the education leaves the country. intelligence stagnates. idiocracy starts to settle in.

[Jimrat86]

US does spend more on pointless wars than ed yes.
But higher ed still bares some responsibility for driving costs up.
In 1987, NY state Uni had their budget proposal sent back by the NY Governor, requesting they make cuts and re-submit it as a more modest one. They found not a single expense they deemed "important" to slash.
The following year, they actually asked for a 9% increase relative to the last year's budget!
The Gov accused the administration of being irresponsible with spending.
The individual student is expected to be fiscally conservative after graduating.
So, why shouldn't higher ed?

[genericname85]

my whole argument was, that they should invest in education and prioritize it, cause this is really the only thing that sets them apart from third world countries and if you let that go, you're left with nothing but a mindless nation of idiots that will pretty much euthanize themselfes sooner or later.
it's a big mistake to make the education system account for every penny spent while millions are spent without even thinking once for any type of military operation, necessary or not.

[jacquesvol]

A 9% budget increase is related to inflation and rising costs. Zero inflation is governmental FICTION.

[genericname85]

@jacquesvol annual inflation isn't 9% either though... well anyway it's just the proverbial drop in the ocean. i think it's way too little.

[jacquesvol]

Education and fundamental research are under-financed (Not only in the US)

[genericname85]

@jacquesvol that's what i'm saying basically xD but i don't know any place where it's so bad given the financial power of the country.

[Jimrat86]

@jacquesvol Wow... just wow...

[jacquesvol]

genericname85 Too sad that the money used for wars isn't used for education.

[genericname85]

@jacquesvol that's what my very first statement was about. trump isn't planing on spending anything on education.

[Jimrat86]

Trump should be removed from office because of this.
Making America Great Again would involve at least some kind of investment in education.

[genericname85]

that's exactly why it boggles my mind how he got elected to begin with... i mean it was pretty much a race between aids and cancer but man sanders would have done it right.

[jacquesvol]

@Jimrat86
America Great Again would INDEED involve at least some kind of investment in education.

[genericname85]

@jacquesvol i think that's what we're all saying XD

[jacquesvol]

Problem is that the powers pulling the strings prefer to spend the tax money on arms to bully other countries.

[Jimrat86]

@jacquesvol Lol.
If inflation were factored into it, then student teachers would get a raise.
Big Universities make choices that drive costs up including the following:
1. Spending heavily on marketing to attract customers.
2. Blowing up their administrative staff by creating job titles that pay sometimes six figures (I don't know what their job is besides paper pushing).
3. Spending (wastefully) on athletics, fancy re reational facilities, dorms and restaurants.

[jacquesvol]

1) Marketing shouldn't be needed.
2) Administration is needed.
3) College sports are an American futility. They could do without. Dorms and cafeterias are needed. Otherwise you'd need a college in every town. Which would be even more expensive.

[Jimrat86]

@jacquesvol I am not im favor of complete removal of administration, I am in favor of lean administrations, since overbloated ones drive costs up, which gets passed onto the students.

[genericname85]

i wonder why free university is not a problem at all in first world countries in Europe but in the worlds hegemon the big old us of a, they can't do that? why make education a freaking private business. it should be free, cause everyone profits in the long run.

[Jimrat86]

Because here a small few would rather rig things to suit their interests and they don't care how many millions it subjugates financially or otherwise.
Greed mainly.

[jacquesvol]

University isn't completely free in Europe but costs MUCH LESS than in the US.

[syphalyticwarthog]

All the things that make life worth living cost money, the majority of us aren't smart enough to do well paid graduate jobs, life isn't worth living if you're a Manuel laborer or a shop assistant. The majority of people would be better off if we'd never been born in the first place.

[HOAAH]

@Max_winner1 what do you do?

[Jimrat86]

@HOAAH He trolls.

[HereIbe]

That's a five-step plan to reduce colleges to nothing more than trade schools. Here's a clue: WE ALREADY HAVE TRADE SCHOOLS!

The problem is not the traditional college structure, the problem is the IDIOTIC idea that college is for everyone. It IS NOT FOR EVERYONE! However, since we push everyone into college, we then STUPIDLY decide that we have do dumb down college to being nothing more than another set of trade schools.

[Jimrat86]

Hardly.
Even if you made drastic changes, the universities, community colleges and local colleges would still hold features you would never see in a trade shool.
Accreditation, the diversity of the student body (not a libby), the student teacher relationship, greek life, and many other things related to a ademia you rarely see outside of academia.
Give me a break!

[Anonymous]

I laugh at any liberal who gets sucked into debt by an even more outrageously liberal college. Both parties are acting like they are superior to the rest of society because of their vastly enlightened beliefs. Meanwhile they are racking up a massive debt and will graduate without the ability to ever pay it off.

[Jimrat86]

It isn't just liberal colleges, though I do acknowledge that fields with high demand are the better way to go.
Not sure where your moral compass lies when you say you "laugh" at the misfortunate, but 18 year old kids and their parents should demand their money back, especially when you look at how colleges are using the tuition cash.

[Opinion Owner]

I'd love to see a massive backlash against colleges

[John_Doesnt]

We need to put regulations on private Universities that still teach creationism and a young earth. Anybody who gets a degree from there should have a big asterisk on their diploma letting people know they're a dumbass.

[jacquesvol]

A degree should be proof of capacity to learn and of knowledge. Not an entry ticket to a high paying job

[jacquesvol]

degree should not guarantee an income. Work guarantees an income.

[Jimrat86]

Thats not what all adults sold me on

[Jimrat86]

You need a degree to find work but as I said, the value is crap. That is not something 18 year old kids have the means to change.

[jacquesvol]

@Jimrat86 A degree proves you can learn complex stuff and you have knowledge. It's not a lottery ticket entitling to nk$ /month
But yes, you need it to prove you're worth to be hired. Then you start to work for an income

[Jimrat86]

If the cost of these things was at least reasonable (There are strong arguments it should be free), I'd put a little more weight into your argument. At least then you wouldn't have people stuck in debt with no turning back only AFTER they earned the degree

[jacquesvol]

@Jimrat86 I too think US colleges are too expensive but that's an American choice: no govt money for anything except big corps (and a bit for welfare to prevent hunger riots..)

[Jimrat86]

The college is a choise argument is so often used by people who do not fully understand the breadth and depth of indoctrination of youths we've systemically carried out in this nation for decades.

[Jimrat86]

Choice*

[jacquesvol]

@Jimrat86 of course, there's also the American urban legend about going from rags to riches without a degree.

[Jimrat86]

Mark Zuckerburg does not serve as a realistic example of the myth America tries to sell us on.
Students attend college on the deceptive and implicit lie that the degree is a one way ticket to success because colleges are not required to show transparent information pertaining to how well grads are doing.

[Greatcat]

Anybody know the occult meaning of 'the black square' ? What it means to be on the black square? To wear a black square on your head?

[Greatcat]

to be below a black square?

[Anonymous]

The education system in the US sucks. Simple as that.

[CT_CD]

I agree

[Anonymous]

Yeah