Stop Bashing Nicki Minaj

[Anonymous]

I read all the time that people think Nicki is talentless, useless, shallow, not a role model, a "slut/whore" who dresses inappropriately etc.

So I figured I might as well educate you people on why Nicki Minaj is great in many ways, and that even if you don't like her music, there's no reason to hate on her as a person.

1. She encourages young people to stay in school. All the time.

2. She has some great, empowering values.

3. She isn't selfish and cares about others.

When her dress ripped at the VMA's, she was more concerned over the fact that it took away from Jessie J's performance. She didn't care that her dress ripped, on stage, in front of so many people. She didn't care that that can be hella embarrassing on its own. She cared more about the fact that it was unprofessional and that she felt like it ruined the performance.

She loves her BFF Beyoncé and made a pretty goofy music video with her.

She had a rough upbringing, especially because of her father and his abuse and addictions. When she was young, she wanted to do everything she could to help her mom.

When I first came to America, I would go in my room and and kneel down at the foot of my bed and pray that God would make me rich so that I could take care of my mother.

4. She has managed to survive and make a name for herself in an industry that's male dominated.

So before you bash her because you don't like the way she looks, the way she dresses, or the way she raps or sings, or that you think she's a waste of space and talentless. Then please remind yourself of the fact that she made something of herself even though her past isn't the best. She pushes herself and is passionate about hard work. She encourages young people to stay in school and get an education, before pursuing their dreams. She takes care of her friends, family and co-workers, and puts them first. She wants to empower women by showing them that you can be both sexy and a hard working queen. That Girl Love is important. That confidence is important. That you shouldn't let anyone stand in your way because of stereotypes, racism, sexism and discrimination.
Just because she pushes boundaries, dresses provocatively and says provocative things, it doesn't mean she can't be a good role model too.

[Chief16]

Just no. No. Even crime lords like Pablo Escobar 'donated' tons to public services and encouraged kids to go to school and attend church. Does that make him an ideal role model?
Just about anyone can make a goodwill speech, and not everyone who rises from poverty can share that empathy with the unfortunate.
Not saying what she does is wrong, but she's far from a role model. And some of the criticism is genuine. And like most male rappers, she is overrated.

[myTake Owner]

I think comparing her to crime lords when she's done nothing like that is an over-exaggeration and quite offensive tbh.

[Chief16]

I'm not comparing her to a crime lord. I'm saying that even people far more despicable can cultivate a popular positive opinion among people. Nearly every singer in Hollywood runs a charity ball, does it make them all good and squeaky clean? I think not.

[CHRIS11796]

Bro well said man. 👍

[redeyemindtricks]

@Chief16 So, then, what message would you prefer that she send instead?

This sounds like the typical blather of someone who thinks that some people can do no wrong, and that others can do no right... and you just happen to think Nicki is in the second category.

Really -- what should she say instead, then?

[Chief16]

@redeyemindtricks ahem, if that's the conclusion you've drawn, then so be it. Since we talk about education, we have far more suitable candidates for role models. The author absolutely ignores everything else to portray Nicki Minaj as misunderstood, Minaj has shamed women in her songs before, why hasn't that been mentioned here? If a guy did the same, believe you me, I don't think this person would talk about him as a positive role model. What I mean is if someone demeans, shames and debases a person for the sake of popularity but then potrrays themselves in a sympathetic light as a completely different person for good PR, the person just feels fake. You may believe whatever you want but that doesn't mean I've to share your belief.

[Sojex]

👏👏👏 said far better than I ever could've

[krash2002]

Have to agree with you on this one Chief.

[LadyTerror]

Yeah I agree. I'm not a fan of her music but I don't dislike her as a person.

[Mustachekitteh]

I just don't like that genre of music and how she seems to be.

[mistixs]

"That Girl Love is important."

That's why she said "fuck skinny bitches", meanwhile more women search for how to get a bigger butt than to make their butts smaller[1], and contributing to the fact that butt implants are the highest rising plastic surgery[2], thus contributing to the profit of old white men in the beauty industry who make money off of women's insecurities, so that they can continue to do so.

[1] www.nytimes.com/.../...witz-searching-for-sex.html
[2] www.counselheal.com/.../...-rising-study-finds.htm

Also, who cares about the fact that many skinny women are that way due to anorexia, right? Just contribute to making them feel worse about their bodies.

You can lift up one group of women without putting another group of women down.

Also...

"If you got a big ol' butt, shake it." What if a woman doesn't WANT to shake her butt?

& Also Nicki Minaj's song Only.

- Chris Brown, an abuser of women, is one of the rappers in the song. She willingly worked with a woman-abuser.
- Drake proudly objectifies Nicki in such a way that teen boys hearing the song are gonna think it’s cool to talk about women like that (”she was sitting down on that big butt but i was still staring at the tittttties thoughhh!”)
- over-emphasis on the sexual desirability of having large breasts (if you’re one of those people saying that women haven’t been pressured to have big breasts for several decades now, then you literally live under a rock)
- Referring to women as “bitches”

[WhiteSteve]

I don't stay as up on current music, but I know a lot of the songs, I just don't have time to know about the artists' public personas and get involved in loving or hating them.

I think she's a pretty decent rapper, she's on a few guest verses on some songs I listen to. I don't know a lot of her individual work that might be more "pop" and less palatable to me. I don't know, though, I think she's pretty good. Between her and Miley Cyrus, I don't know why they get so much hate. In Miley's case, I only know grown-up Miley, so maybe some people are mad that she used to be a child actress or something? Not sure why that makes anyone mad, but whatever. Maybe people think both of them are try-hards? But like Joe Budden said "how can I stay anonymous when it's my job to be famous?" Both these women, and many others, are just playing "the game." A celebrity's number one priority is to keep their name in our mouths and staying relevant.

Overall though, I think Nicki has a good flow and persona, and she's not too hard to look at either👍

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A_hurKpC8Fghttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A_hurKpC8Fg

[MagiAlphaOne]

She needs to lead by example... which she FAILS!

- She steals off other artists (e. g. little kim, mariah carey)
- Slutty and outrageously over-sexualized behavior
- DIRTY lyrics

Check out the video below. How many mothers and fathers want their little girls to idolize Nicki Minaj? Ask yourselves, how do you think these little girls going to behave when they become teenagers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9573kGBtuE

[myTake Owner]

Ffs like I said, if you don't like the way she dresses or sings/raps, cool. But that doesn't take away from the fact that she does care about other people, education and hard work. I'd rather have my daughters look up to her for those reasons, than have them look up to you and your sexist views.

[TheWaterBear]

Yes, quite the role model, isn't she?

images.christianpost.com/.../...bruary-12-2012.jpg

extraordinaryintelligence.com/.../...-of-roman.jpg

s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...336a62696c.jpg

vigilantcitizen.com/.../..._azz-e1299783727290.jpg

[TheWaterBear]

Not to mention her BFF Beyoncé (sorry, one of the above images was Beyoncé, my bad)

2.bp.blogspot.com/.../Beyonce+baphomet.jpg

And Madonna
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/iTlSmAt8Uhc/hqdefault.jpg

3.bp.blogspot.com/.../madonna-illuminati.jpg

cocinayespiritu.files.wordpress.com/.../5-cornutp.jpg

[TheWaterBear]

And let's not forget Katy Perry.

www.abc.net.au/news/image/5220688-3x2-940x627.jpg

[MagiAlphaOne]

@lumos, I have a 20 yr. old Daughter. Experience has told me that children are "sponges". They have NOT FILTERS on what they see and hear. For example, they will hear their Father get angry and use "f-bombs" and the like. Next thing you know, they are saying the "f-bombs".

Ask yourself, how long will it take for your girls to find Nicki song "F* You Silly?"

As you can see... ITS PARENTING. NOT SEXIST VIEWS.

By the way, good luck in convincing children to forget what they see and hear!

[myTake Owner]

Those pictures mean nothing to me lol. And I don't care if they're saying fuck, people can still be respectable and mature even if they swear.

[MagiAlphaOne]

@lumos, there are far BETTER role models to inspire girls than Nicki Minaj. Please consider Malala Yousafzai

MallalaYousafzai was shot in the head by the Taliban when she was 15 years old on her school bus. But she wasn’t silenced. She spoke at the United Nations on her 16th birthday, established the Malala Fund (which has poured millions of dollars into funding secondary education for girls in developing countries)

www.nobelprize.org/.../yousafzai-facts.html

[MagiAlphaOne]

@lumos, also consider...

J. K. Rowling
Oprah Winfrey
Condoleeza Rice

[Relentless_Hippie]

Nearly every song she needs to rap about her coochie, booty, or boobies. She needs to degrade herself and other women down to their body parts as if that's their only worth. She's a woman with insecurities, very low self esteem and low self worth. She's the type of hoe to demand respect in spite of all the foul things she's done in that past since now she's "successful." Let's also not forget the fact that she's a complete rip off of another rap ho, little Kim. Bad people can do good things and good people can do bad things. Just because she has some favorable ideas about things doesn't mean she's a proper role model. Also, image is everything. Anyone can say they stand for one thing and not care about it.

[myTake Owner]

What's more concerning is the fact that you think a woman's worth is based on body parts, and that a woman can't be secure and confident if she shows skin or talks/raps/sings dirty. Also the assumption that you know exactly how she feels about herself.
When regular people talk about their struggles and road to success, people congratulate them and feel proud of them. Yet when a celebrity like Nicki Minaj does it you mean that it must be a publicity stunt and just for the sake of their image? What a sad view on humans honestly.

[Relentless_Hippie]

Not at all, I'm sure my view is more accurate than yours. And no, I think some women are worth much more than their body parts and women who have self respect cover themselves up. It's just truth that the lower the self esteem the less clothes she wears. Women with really poor views of themselves tend to be on either side of the spectrum. They cover themselves up too much or they wear too little. I don't understand why women's role models always have to be that of a whore. Sorry, but Nicki isn't a role model that any girl should have. Why not have a role model be someone who is successful and still respectable. I don't want to hear about men licking out her vag and her sucking penises. You think that's respectable? Lol k. Women should look up to women like Michelle Obama, not women like Nicki or Marilyn Monroe.

[myTake Owner]

Sigh. I don't have time for people who think self-respect has anything to do with clothes. Sorry.

[Relentless_Hippie]

Clothes are a reflection of the kind of value you place on yourself. Nonetheless, your opinion of me has absolutely no value in my eyes and zero affect on my life. Just like nobody else's opinion on someone who doesn't even know you're alive should have zero affect or value in your eyes. She might be a role model to you, but she definitely doesn't have to be a role model to anyone else. Her being someone you might personally look up to doesn't mean she's special in terms of criticism, insults, or anything negative.

[renogaza]

quite frankly i dislike almost every celebrity in the music industry, most of the songs i hear nowadays are killing my brain cells, but that doesn't mean i dislike Pop, Rap, Rock, RnB or any of the other kinds of music, they were really good once, now most of them are crappy

i've lots of respect for the ones who made great songs but i'm not gonna sugar coat and gloss over all the bad ones or be a "blind as f*q" fan-girl about it, i don't care if they're celebrities or if they say or act like good people, because its all just an act, nobody wants to be the next justin beiber or kanye west.

[Stacyzee]

True confidence is someone that doesn't need to promote a body image that is unrealistic. True confidence is also from someone that doesn't need plastic surgery on almost every inch of their body, lace front wigs, piled on make up, to "show that is what sexy is looks like".
Also, being that Nicki is a modern rapper she had many influences such as little Kim (that is the person that deserves all of the clapping for being in a male dominated industry) little Kim, is who opened the doors for female artists like her lets not forget that.

[UnknownXYZ]

www.court-records.net/.../miles-crossed(c).gif

I don't know Nicki Ninaj and I don't listen to her music. But I really cringe at the hate many celebrities get for any real good reasons. It seems to me that hating on celebrities is simply a social and cultural fad that people on the bandwagon for and people hate for the sake of hating. Many reasons people give don't really justify the hate of a specific individual.

[FallOutBoy2001]

Personally, I'd trade her for any of the musicians I love that have died. I much prefer Mitch Licker or The Rev over Nicki Minaj, because both of them are extremely talented people who knew how to play an instrument or scream (doesn't sound that hard but it's really tricky to scream.)

I dislike how much emphasis she puts on being provocative. She sang Anaconda, for the love of God, and spends most of her time wearing provocative clothing and twerking because that's what attract people to her. Maybe she has one or two good songs, I think that's more luck than anything

[FallOutBoy2001]

I'm gonna be honest here. She strikes me as incredibly fake. She talks the talk, but does she walk the walk? Or is it all PR? A lot of pop icons talk about common topics that we can all agree are good, but do they act on them? Probably not.

Before someone tells me "not all celebrities are like that!" you're right, not all celebrities/bands are like that. Austin Carlile, of Of Mice and Men, talks about his experience with Marfan syndrome, and encourages anyone who thinks they or a loved one might have it to get tested for it. Pete Wentz, of Fall Out Boy, is majorly into foundations like the Jeb foundation (a mental health organization, with the main goal of preventing suicide among university kids) and the entire band is very involved with UNICEF, and Andy Biersack, of Black Veil Brides, is majorly involved with anti-bullying campaigns and gay rights.

[FallOutBoy2001]

Pete Wentz (FOB) is bisexual and has struggled with bipolar depression and suicidal thoughts, which lead him to attempt suicide in 2003; now he has a successful career, a loving girlfriend, and two adorable kids. Patrick Stump (also FOB) has struggled with his weight, and didn't think he would make it to 21 without killing himself; he's still here, with a beautiful wife, a kid, and another one of the way. Vic Fuentes (Pierce the Veil) was bullied in school and self harmed when he was a teenager, and he still has the scars on his wrists; he stopped because his little brother looked up to him and he didn't want to see him go down the same road, and he continues to this day to talk about self-harm and how to get help, and writes about topics a lot of people relate to, such as losing friends to suicide. Tyler Joseph (TOP) deals with depression and suicidal thoughts; he writes incredibly moving and raw music (such as Migraine and Car Radio) about dealing with his demons.

[FallOutBoy2001]

A lot of the bands in the alt scene are way better role models, I'm sorry if that offends you but it's true. Hell, the biggest gathering of them all, Warped Tour, has so much activism, whether it be PETA, mental health organizations, ending the stigma against piercings and tattoos, or some other organization, you can find a activism booth simply by walking ten paces. It doesn't take hard work to get implants, dress provacatively, and twerk, anyone could do that. She doesn't write much of her own music (the beat or the words), google can back me up on that, and even if she did write some of the lyrics, it shouldn't take five other writers and softcore porn for videos to make people want to watch you if you're truly talented. It's true her past was bad, a lot of people have bad pasts, but that itself doesn't make her a good role model.

[Spermdumster666]

For starters the best way for a woman to advance careerwise is to go into a male dominated profession rather than professions dominated by women. Who really is hating on her yes she's a positive role model at times but that doesn't mean I think 13 year old girls should dress like her, buy her music, go to her shows or listen to the lyrics in her songs. At the end of the day whether its Rhianna, Beyonce, Swift, Iggy. Adrianna or the rest of them all your seeing is carefully sculpted image that doesn't represent who they are good or bad, every story you read or watch is put out there by the Music industry who know the more controversial the better. Nikki Minaj comes off the pop factory conveyer belt, guarantee there is another right behind ready to take her place bug thats show business.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Lmao www.goforthbesocial.com/.../...dstaff-1019_606.jpg
I went outside of my closet just for this take.
"stay in school"
plenty of morons have said it, just because another one somehow makes it like she is somehow better? Taylor Swift, Katie Perry, even fuckin ICP.
"she shows young girls confidence."
Why. Just how is it confident to walk around like a slut? Its fucking annoying to see some broad acting like they are hot shit when i can walk up to them, make fun and watch them break down. The worst part is, they fuck me afterwards... that ain't confidence lmao, thats known as benign neglect from their parents and a false reality spreaded to them by figure heads like nicki minaj. The feminist values of this take is so fucking cringy.

[Octavius]

I hate people that just like to hate (I know super ironic and hypocritical)

It's like when people just hate on something that's popular to hate I think to myself how I dislike this person more than I dislike the person they hate because they won't shut up about them.

Personally I'm definitely not a fan of Nicki Minaj. But I'm not saying her music is bad or anything about her. I just don't like the genre. I know nothing about her other than gossip others say about her. Same with a bunch of other celebrities. And I always think "why do you care in the slightest?" and people get so offended when I ask that question yet they can never come up with an answer.

Long story short people just like to gossip about more popular people. Most likely some psychoanalytical explanation for all the possible reasons why.

[ThisDudeHere]

Kind of moronic to encourage people to stay in school and let their hard work pay off when you change your ass, boobs beyond their recognition and then use them to sell your "music".

[myTake Owner]

How do you know she didn't do that for herself? Why do you automatically assume she did it for attention? And wtf does that have anything to do with telling people to stay in school? There's literally no correlation? Why aren't people allowed to change their appearance?

[ThisDudeHere]

People are allowed to change their appearance - but that doesn't make it any less vain.

[CisScum]

Rule #1 of fame.
A lot of people who are famous for music are fake and be fake to make music sell. Anyone can make public speeches about being for this and being for that, but what matters is if they're serious about it or not. Most likely it's just a stupid and ridiculous PR stunt because they know a lot of females will buy her music so that's where a lot of the PR is focused to.

Now am I saying all famous people do this? Nope, actually a lot of famous people donate to charity, give their time to important causes like what Akon did in Africa. Until I see her actually put her time into something important, she's pretty much just like the rest. All talk and no actions.

Unless she's actually done any of these things I have said? Then I would take this back but I haven't heard of anything.

[FallOutBoy2001]

Agreed!

[FrenchyRomain]

"she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe she a stupid hoe" yeah... sure

[Prettyapathetic]

It's catchy!

[FrenchyRomain]

@Prettyapathetic it" sucky bullshit... not a song barely SOUND or NOISE

[myTake Owner]

Yeah... because one song totally defines her entire career, right?

[FrenchyRomain]

thefix.nine.com.au/.../have-your-say-nicki-minajs-most-laughable-lyric
no, this does

[reixun]

I love that song "bitch talkin she a queen when she lookin like a lab rat" pop songs are supposed to be cheap and feel good 😂

[FrenchyRomain]

@reixun so they are MEANT to be stupid and worthless? ok... now i understand why i hate pop ;)

[reixun]

Everything doesn't have to be meaningful or deep, superficiality is fun you should try it.

[FrenchyRomain]

@reixun i hate superficiality... if you like superficial guys good luck for your love life... that goes for everything

[reixun]

Who said I want superficial guys. I'm saying it's okay to like superficial things. Like music, movies and shows.

[FrenchyRomain]

@reixun naaaah, sorry i like quality

[RJGraveyTrain]

Honestly, I didn't consider myself a Nicki Manage fan, didn't know much about her other than her eccentric style and sexuality in the media really. I wasn't even expecting to like this take, but I did. I now have more respect for this woman. Not that I didn't before, as I didn't know her, but I see her in a much different light.

[AleDeEurope]

Only in GAG you'll see a Take praising Nicki Minaj... tsk tsk
xD

Sorry but no... just no.

[myTake Owner]

Yeah, fuck education and confidence, right?

[AleDeEurope]

No. Fuck hypocrisy.
You're just falling for good PR.
What's the point of saying on an interview and in front of cameras you should be confident and go to school, when in the end, what she's teaching is you have to be hot in order to get what you want, no need to work hard, just get a bigger booty, shake it, and you'll get the money.

[myTake Owner]

Show me WHERE she taught anyone that you have to be hot in order to get what you want. WHERE. Because all I'm seeing is you projecting your own biased feelings onto her. Her having a big butt means jack shit in the end, she'd be just as successful without it.

[AleDeEurope]

Plenty of her songs just talk about sex and being hot and shit like that. Then she has changed herself just to get prettier. How can you "teach" confidence, when she doesn't even love herself?

I know it's difficult to see the negatives as a fangirl, but it's pretty damn obvious.

[myTake Owner]

I'm not even a fan of her music. I truly like maybe 3 songs of hers. Talking about sex and being hot =/= you having to be hot to get what you want. You can be confident and love yourself even if you want to change some parts of yourself.

[redeyemindtricks]

You should be confident. If school will help yr career, you should also stay in school.

You should ALSO do absolutely everything you can to make yourself as hot as you can make yourself. Because duh... What's on the outside DOES count. It would be colossally stupid to pretend that it doesn't.

None of this is self-contradictory. What the fuck? Are you actually trying to say that "Make yourself hot" undermines an appeal to confidence and education?
Srsly?
Are you one of those guys who couldn't take an educated woman seriously if (God forbid) she also happened to be hot?

[AleDeEurope]

@redeyemindtricks What... are you talking about? XD
There's a difference between getting hot by working out, and getting hot by paying a plastic surgeon, and I'm really not just talking about the looks.

xD

[popsickle]

Honestly, same can be said about most celebrities... that they receive unnecessary or out of proportion bashing. It just comes with the territory, the common folks are becoming critics. I wouldn't mind it too much, because regardless, she is very successful which means many don't feel that way about her.

[Anonymous]

"She has managed to survive and make a name for herself in an industry that's male dominated." She's done that essentially by looking hot and having a big @$$! She's not some champion of female empowerment fighting sexism, she's perpetuating it by using her body and not her "talent" to get famous.

As for what she's singing about, take a listen to "anaconda" and "stupid ho" and tell me exactly what part of her music (I call it music for want of a more accurate description) makes her such a good role model.

[GreatnessBack]

No, I will bash her all I like.
First Amendment and all.

Point 4 makes no sense.
Nearly/almost/about HALF of the musicians are women. I could list a long list of great female musicians more than I can like male ones. And Nicki is near bottom.

I will say this: she has talent, but I see her making lots of dumb music. I hope she gets to a point where she can make really good music without having to make the dumb shit.

[myTake Owner]

She's a rapper. Most rappers are men.

[GreatnessBack]

little Kim, Foxy Brown, Queen Latifah, MC Lyte, Missy Elliot, Da Brat, Ra Digga, Remy Ma, little Mama.
Nicki cannot hold a candle to any of them and they are REAL rappers, not the popcorny shit you're stuck with.

[GreatnessBack]

Goddam site, wrote l i l as little.

[GreatnessBack]

oh by the way, lol on all that stuff.

[cipher42]

First off, stop misusing the first amendment. The first amendment has literally nothing to do with this, and if your best defense for what you're saying is that it's not illegal to say it, then maybe you oughta think a bit harder before you say it.

But more importantly, get outta here with your elitist nonsense. Ever heard the phrase "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"? So it goes with music. Just because you personally don't like that style of music doesn't mean other people are wrong for liking it. Cool, you don't like it. So don't listen to it. Other people do like it, and that's fine. Different people have different tastes, and if you honestly think that anyone who thinks/acts differently than you do is "dumb", then you're part of what's wrong with the world.

[Kinstrome]

@cipher42 I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The first amendment would only be irrelevant here if this were not a legally American forum. But whether or not it is, the right to free speech--which is what the opinion owner likely referred to--is relevant if he construed the Take as saying he must not criticize Nicki Minaj, which is something entirely within his rights.

Secondly, all your second paragraph can be condensed to saying that his opinion is unwelcome. Several things are irrelevant. He never said "other people are wrong for liking it." Saying "you don't like it, so don't listen to it" is a non-point; it can be used to disqualify any opinion. He never hectored anybody about their tastes or called them "dumb." After all that is drained away, the meat of the message is that *his* opinion is wrong. I think you are taking what he said personally either because you like Minaj or you dislike him. If that's the case, just say so instead of this roundabout message.

[Kinstrome]

@cipher42 Also, and most importantly, going off on somebody with sarcasm and disrespect and other disparaging words because you're one of the "good guys" is never okay. I have heard that attitude called "liberal outrage" and I can think of no better term. It is something that is genuinely wrong with the world. When intelligent, educated people forget that the ends do not justify the means, the world is in a bad way. The REAL good guys are rational and collected, not angry and petty. Leave that to sites like Upworthy.

I recognize that websites like GAG have more than a little problem with woman-hating and other things, but that's something to either be handled with respect and reason or to be left behind.

[cipher42]

@Kinstrome: This isn't an American forum? Not a government run one in any case. Literally all freedom of speech does is protect you from THE GOVERNMENT punishing you for what you say. It doesn't mean others can't be against your words, it doesn't mean you can't be punished by non-government agencies for what you say, and it certainly doesn't mean that what you say is any more acceptable than it would be otherwise in non-legal terms.

He called her music dumb. He didn't say that he didn't like it, he said it was dumb. That's not a statement about his particular opinion, that's just a statement about the quality of her music. Look, there's plenty of music that doesn't fit my tastes, but that doesn't mean it's dumb, it just means I in particular don't like it. If you call someone's preferences "dumb", you're effectively insulting them for liking it, which is honestly pretty shitty.

[cipher42]

@Kinstrome And explain to me why you're not doing exactly the same thing you're accusing me of. Because I don't think you should disparage other people's preferences just because they're not to your taste, that's wrong? Bullshit. All I'm saying is that calling other people's beliefs and preferences "dumb" is effectively calling them wrong, and that sort of thing has caused a whole lot of strife in the world as a whole. Look at all the times in history that people have tried to punish other cultures for thinking differently from them. Yes, a more exaggerated example, but definitely not an all together different scenario.

[Kinstrome]

@cipher42 Freedom of speech means that people are free without legal repercussion to make statements that don't in a very meaningful way cause others harm (classic example: yelling "fire" in a crowded place). He is practicing his freedom of speech by saying her music is dumb. The worst that can be said about his citing that freedom is that it's redundant, since obviously by stating his opinion he is practicing his rights.

He is clearly stating an opinion. Opinions don't have to be prefaced by "In my opinion," or suffixed with "well, that's my opinion, anyway." They can just be said. It goes without saying that a statement about one's taste in a non-quantifiable field such as music is an opinion.

He isn't insulting anybody but Minaj. If someone wants to take his message personally, and be part of the multitude that in modern times finds some way to make themselves "under attack" and a "victim," that's fine, but he is literally just insulting the rapper herself.

[Kinstrome]

@cipher42 It may be true that I am speaking in an inflammatory manner as well. If that is so, I apologize for the hypocrisy. However, my point that taking the high road and using low road tactics is incongruous and immoral remains valid.

I don't care for people simply calling things "dumb," but it isn't comparable to imperialism and the requisition of foreign cultures. Those things were coerced out of other people by force or through other abuses by one's position of power. He isn't using any such position. He's an essentially anonymous poster on a website that welcomes opinions. We're not pre-adolescent children, who must be kept from the dark side of people's opinions so as not to be corrupted.

I still think you are taking this way too personally. He isn't even saying that she's purely a bad singer. I would think you'd target the many other posters above and below him who *are* saying such things.

[cipher42]

@Kinstrome: I understand the constitution perfectly well, thanks all the same. And I hold that it has absolutely no relevancy here. Just because the government can't punish you for saying something doesn't give what you say any more legitimacy or morality. As such, there is absolutely no point to bringing up the first amendment as a way of legitimizing your words. I can't arrest you for what you say, so what? I can still disagree with it in any number of ways.

I don't see it that way. Yes, obviously it's an opinion. But what he's not acknowledging is that his opinion is not in fact the be all end all. That's my main issue with it. One persons preferences in areas such as music or any kind of art really cannot be any more right or wrong than anyone else's, and the way he stated his opinion implied that he thought his way of looking at music was the "right" way, and everyone who disagreed with him was looking at it the "wrong way".

[cipher42]

@Kinstrome I take issue with that way of looking at the world, for reasons I mentioned previously. This idea that there is only one correct opinion in matters such as this has caused huge issues throughout history, and as such I really don't have much tolerance for it. Intolerance isn't something I appreciate, and I really don't find it fair to accuse that stance of also being intolerant.

I do think it's comparable to imperialism, as it's the same sort of mindset. Again, clearly not to the same degree or on the same subject, but still the same mindset. This whole "the way I see the world is right and the way you see it is wrong" thing is utterly ridiculous, and it pops up in all sorts of places. Some people take it to greater extremes than others, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable when it's not taken to a great extreme. Intolerance is still intolerance, any which way.

I welcome other people's opinions, provided they're aware that they're merely opinions. Understand where I'm com

[cipher42]

Egh, it cut me off. As I was saying, understand where I'm coming from yet or shall I explain further?

[Kinstrome]

@cipher42 You haven't really explained your first point, so yes, you're going to have to explain your points further. I'm breaking mine down:

1) Everyone has the right to hold and express an opinion.
2) Even if the Opinion Owner said there was only one correct opinion (which he didn't), stating that only one opinion is right is just an opinion. He is not taking up arms to enforce it, and that's the only reason that him saying that "only one opinion is right" would be immoral. (Unless you believe that people are generally feeble-minded and will be helplessly convinced that their opinions are wrong by others simply saying it, so that people should never express their opinions except by putting a disclaimer up.)
3) If tolerance isn't practiced by the people who claim to use it, then it's a utility word, like Catch-22 in its namesake novel. A person can use it to excuse anything. You cannot really believe that because somebody is doing something unethical, it is okay to use underhanded

[Kinstrome]

tactics such as disparaging words, sarcasm, and passive-aggressiveness because you're the Good Guys. The ends do not justify the means.
4) It is silly to literally think one's taste in a non-quantifiable field such as music is "right." (Although there are "right" beliefs in such fields as biology, economics, and, of course, the maths.) It is also silly to think statements like that threaten healthy-minded people at all, unless you think people are really so weak-minded that they cannot be exposed to different opinions. But the purpose of society is to cultivate strong, internally secure individuals, not bend the rules of the world so that NO one can hear anything that might offend them or hurt them in some insubstantial way. The latter way of thinking is akin to the nanny state, and the nanny state is terrifying.

I can tell that you are intelligent enough to recognize these points, which is why I still think you took the opinion owner's post personally and are upset with him.

[cipher42]

@Kinstrome: The first point being that about the 1st amendment? So it goes like this:
1. The first amendment protects people from government punishment for what they say.
2. Invoking the 1st amendment only means that the government can't punish you for what you say.
3. I really don't think the government gives a shit about this guys opinion of Nicki Minaj.
4. Even if the government did care, them not being able to arrest him for saying what he is has absolutely no bearing on the relevancy or validity of his opinion.

Basically, the 1st amendment does not matter one bit here. I am not the government, nor is this website even run by the government. So the first amendment does not in any way legitimize or defend what he is saying in this context. It allows him to say it without being arrested, but why exactly does that matter one bit? Plus, as I've said, if his best defense for what he is saying is that it's not illegal to say it then maybe he should rethink his words.

[cipher42]

And why exactly do you think tolerance is relevant here? As I've clearly explained, the first amendment has absolutely no bearing on what my reaction to his words must be. In fact, if we're going to pretend it's relevant here, then what it would do is expressly allow me to be as intolerant of his words as I please.

As for the whole thing about unhealthy modes of thought, this isn't about whether his opinion on this particular topic is harmful. It's about the fact that the mode of thought he seems to ascribe to is. Taking away the context of it being this particular subject, the thought he's expressing here is that the view of people who disagree with him on this is "dumb". And yet you're lecturing *me* about intolerance. In any case, the sort of view that others' views are "dumb" for no reason other than subjective opinion is one I strongly object to, for reasons I should hope would be clear.

[cipher42]

As for me taking his post personally, you're jumping to conclusions rather fast on that one. What did he say that I would be offended by? I don't even personally like Nicki Minaj's music, so it's not like he called my views dumb. I just find it far to similar to the same phenomenon but in regards to a different set of views, such as religion or culture.

[Kinstrome]

@cipher42 Your post about the first amendment is irrelevant in that instance, because in my first point I did not actually cite it. I already said his own citation of the actual amendment was redundant, so there's no need to argue that.

Which is why your original response to his opinion still does not seem congruent with what you've been arguing since then. He expressed an opinion. You hectored him over his opinion. You implied that his opinion was unwelcome. Telling him that his opinion is unwelcome is indeed sanctioned by the freedom of speech, in much the same way as someone may exercise their right to free speech by advocating that Congress ban a certain word, something that violates the freedom of speech.

To simplify your argument, it contains a few points: 1) It is wrong to use freedom of speech to justify an opinion that is rude or unwanted, 2) making a judgment on the quality of some art form or another is an attack on the people who enjoy that art form,

[Kinstrome]

3) impartial tolerance is unnecessary when one party believes it is morally correct about something (i. e. "I don't have to be tolerant of their intolerance."), 4) the possibility that expressing a volatile or offensive opinion could in some way harm one person or many people justifies trying to stifle that opinion. I'm sure there are other points, but that's what I'm getting from this.

I basically disagree with all of those points, whether or not you believe them as I've written them out. Freedom of speech is so sacred that it can be compared to almost nothing else. The freedom to say "I think this music is shit" is not only sanctioned, it is actually valuable. The opinion owner is a person, as valuable to society as every other person. As you said, there are no "right" opinions on music, so why is his invalid? He is a fraction of a percent of the whole, just like the people who like Minaj's music. Thus he is contributing to the outcome of that music, just like people who buy or

[Kinstrome]

refrain from buying a certain store's products contribute to whether that store remains open or is replaced. That's how society and art and technology grow: people give their input, and what is good remains, and what isn't, doesn't.

This is all moot, anyway, because he didn't say half the things you are reading out of his post. He literally said two sentences:

"I will say this: she has talent, but I see her making lots of dumb music."
"I hope she gets to a point where she can make really good music without having to make the dumb shit."

In sentence one, he praises her talent, but says that right now she is making bad music.
In sentence two, he hopes she will use that talent to make better music and not have to make the bad music any more.

What is missing from those two sentences: 1) Any sort of disparaging comment toward Minaj's fans, and 2) any insistence that other opinions are wrong.

THAT is why I think you are taking this personally. Your posts have been way out of proportion

[Kinstrome]

with what he said in the first post. It doesn't make sense to me why you are going to such lengths to say his kind of opinion is toxic to society. The only thing I can think is that you got upset for whatever reason with him of all the posters here and posted about it, and when I started to argue with you, you got in a rut in which you feel obligated to continue arguing your original points. And the reason I suspect this is because I have been in that exact position and have gotten my ass handed back to me by people with coherent, rational arguments.