Why do "nice" guys get so angry about rejection?

[HeatherJaney]

I see question after question of "friend zoning bitches" or "nice guys finish last".

Just because a girl doesn't like you doesn't mean that they are a bad person or only likes arseholes.

And it also annoys me when they say girls only go for hot guys. Attraction is SUBJECTIVE. For those who don't know what it means: it is different for each person. So yeah girls go for who they find attractive; one girl could fancy Ian Somerholder and another one Paul Rudd, completely different girls, completely different views on attractiveness.

Why can't a girl say no to a "nice guy" and date another nice guy? How do you know she's dating a douche? He could be a nicer guy than you, yet your saying she only likes pricks.

And I swear to God if I see one more comment about how all girls cheat and would dump their BF for someone more attractive I will scream.

Updates

+1 y

Lets play spot the "nice guy".

[jesseray]

People are too harsh on nice guys.

They are accused of being assholes who pretend to be nice to get something in exchange. That assumes coldblooded calculatedness. Only one group of people I know could be so calculated so often for so long: sociopaths. If you allege that nice guys are effectively sociopaths, then you should feel ashamed. They are not so calculated. They do not like someone and then decide to do nice things to win their favor. They are just especially nice to people they like because they like them. That is basic animal nature. When a boy bird likes a girl bird, does it not offer worms and twigs? What person would even try to be neutral?

Many women encourage and request them to do nice things, knowing why he does it. Do they spare them the time, effort, and expense by telling them they do not like them that way? No, they are usually glad to take advantage. Some are so crass that they tell their friends, "Look at my bitch." After being taken advantage of, belittled, and rejected, many nice guys feel hurt and bitter. After seeing how they are treated, how could I blame them for feeling that way? How should the boy bird feel when the girl bird takes his worms and twigs for months and then lets him watch her cuddle up to some other bird? They should feel bitter. Feeling anything else would be bizarre.

They lament and warn others away from their mistake. People respond with "pussy-whipped", "he kissed so much ass", "acting like her gay friend", "people pleasers (are bad)", "insincere", "entitled", "sexists", "self-absorbed", "calculated", etc. The list of insults is astounding. It might be longer than the list for cheaters.

The modern world does not value kindness in people except to the extent that it makes it easy to exploit, ridicule, and oppress those people. The modern world does not value fellow-feeling either. Any expression of understandable bitterness is met with a juggernaut of insults. The modern world is pathetic and contemptible.

[cunninghornet]

Never really thought of it that way... Very good point.

[Agrojag]

What a great answer. This should've been MH.

[HeatherJaney]

I disagree that this should have been but you're entitled to your opinion

[MildlyOriginal]

There's a difference between being nice and letting people walk all over you. If you let a girl walk all over you because you like her, well that's about as unattractive as it gets. That person might genuinely be a nice person, but they are even more so a desperate person.

I'm a nice guy. I know other nice guys. I've never seen any of us put down or rejected for that. It's always been a positive attribute. Why? Because we don't let people walk all over us either. When we do something, we don't expect something in return, but we also set reasonable boundaries too. Something that is pretty essential if you want to be both nice and not have it abused.

A nice guy that is too afraid to put up a boundary because he risks the chance the girl will take offense and stop liking him is the type of guy that gets used. Saddest part, he never had a chance to begin with if a girl was willing to do that. Women respect guys who set boundaries. You can be nice and set boundaries at the same time.

[jesseray]

No one lets people walk all over them. Have you tried walking on someone lately? The truth is, most nice guys have set reasonable boundaries. In societies with more class (such as Japan), they would be viewed favorably.

What is a boundary any way? According to your train of reasoning, that's where you stop being nice. Their boundaries happen to be further-out than yours because (frankly) they are nicer than you. Trying to frame their greater niceness as some kind of personal failing about boundaries is bullshit.

They are not the ones to be admonished. The ones who should be admonished are the men and women who exploit them, as well as those who do not admonish the exploiters but do admonish the exploited.

[MildlyOriginal]

No they haven't. A boundary is set when the person simply doesn't deserve that degree of trust. If I just met you, and you asked to borrow 5k, me denying you isn't me failing to be nice, it's setting a boundary. If you asked to borrow 5 dollars however, I'd likely say denying somebody of that even if you don't know them well probably isn't the nice thing to do.

You talk about these exploiters as though they are some legal authority forcing their will. You started off by saying most nice guys have set reasonable boundaries, but then end it with we should blame the people who are exploiting them. A person can't be exploited without A. force B. failure to set up proper boundaries. Nobody is forcing them, so clearly their personal boundaries have failed them.

Boundaries aren't strict uniform codes, but they are there to avoid repeated exploitation. So if somebody is getting exploited, they need to set boundaries to avoid that.

[MildlyOriginal]

And I see guys that let women walk all over them all the time. I'm not saying the exploiters are without blame. But people allow it to happen to them, and it's not because they were being too nice.

[MildlyOriginal]

A guy that does nice thing because he likes a girl is setting himself up to be exploited. A guy that does nice things for any other reason than because it was a nice thing to do is setting themselves up to be exploited.

If I do some nice things for somebody, then when they could do something nice for me they decide not to, it's on me to decide whether I should terminate the interaction with that person or not. If I choose not to, I opted to put myself in that position.

[jesseray]

If you do not have a wooden boundary (i.e., a fence) around your lawn, does that make you partly culpable when tons of people in the neighborhood take their dogs to your lawn to shit? Did you fail to set reasonable boundaries or were their neighbors just assholes?

I have grown weary of this "build a fortress around yourself" mentality. People should not need to erect walls around their generosity (lest they be exploited), around their lawns (lest they be shat on), around their trampolines (lest they be sued), around their bodies (lest they be raped), etc.

This "build a fortress" mentality is a sign of societal dysfunction. Anyone who argues against people not building fortresses around themselves but never argues against the people who shit all over everything you have? They should be ashamed.

[MildlyOriginal]

No, the neighbors are assholes. But if it keeps happening and you still don't put up a fence, you're an idiot and it's no surprise your lawn is ruined.

Nobody is arguing the exploiters aren't assholes. They are. What we're saying is it didn't happen to these "nice people" because they were nice. It's because they refused to build a fence when they knew the neighbors who were assholes, kept being assholes.

[jesseray]

"Nobody is arguing the exploiters aren't assholes."

And it seems that nobody is arguing that they ARE assholes either. Look to your left over at the girl's opinions. Do you think none of them took advantage of the guys they are talking about? Of course some of them have. Yet, I see no sympathy over there. Where's the person who argues in favor of sympathy over there? I looked through everything on the left side, and I did not see you making any argument to that effect. Then I looked through everything on the right side. Nope, still nothing like that from you on this side either. In fact, you just called each and every one of them assholes.

Thanks for being "a nice guy" (liar).

I'm done with this discussion.

[MildlyOriginal]

Sorry I don't have sympathy for people who don't help themselves.You want to throw yourself a pity party, go ahead. I've been through enough shit in my life to know that gets you nowhere. Not only that, but to do it over something that can so simply be rectified, sorry but no sympathy from me.

[jesseray]

"you want to throw yourself"... where did I enter into the picture? Don't be so presumptuous. And stop replying to this. I don't want notifications for a discussion I do not want to continue.

[Anonymous]

I would think the answer is obvious: because they aren't genuinely nice guys. When a person is genuinely nice, they do nice things without expectation of repayment or keeping score. They don't see the act as making them entitled to anything or owed anything. They don't even expect to be treated in the same manner because they know some people won't (so the smart thing would be not to associate with those people anymore).

The guys you are referring to are nice because they believe it serves their own ends. They are nice because they think other people will do similar things for them. They act that way because they think it's how you get what you want. These same people will likely argue that all actions are ultimately selfish in one form or another, so what they are doing is simply the more honest version of that. The reality is though, they are selfish and angry that they feel they weren't repaid for what they gave while being "nice".

It's not just a guy thing. Women do that too, they just usually don't have it manifest in the same manner. With guys it's the woman just wanting to be friends instead of getting in a relationship. With women it's the guy just wanting to have sex instead of getting in a relationship. Both of them have an expectation that "If I act this way, they will want what I want". That's the reason they did the things they did, and they get upset when they don't get what they want. It's a mix of insincerity and entitlement.

[HeatherJaney]

Most helpful by far. Good points, well reasoned. Dude you deserve it.

[Opinion Owner]

Well thank you!

[HeatherJaney]

I respect an honest opinion and I do agree women do it too. The "friend zone" thing is just more prominent with men, but I definitely agree with what you said. :)

[AndyWes]

Bravo, lol. We should go tell all those nice guys that they're in fact assholes. They'll be better off for it.

[Opinion Owner]

Honestly, if some of these guys were less nice and more just themselves, they would probably be less of an asshole.

If they treated everybody the way they wanted to be treated, and didn't treat certain people (attractive women) nicer simply because they wanted something from them (a relationship or sex), they would seem a lot less like assholes.

[halafax]

well said

[MissDelight]

It's quite simple, deer: Bitterness dominates them.
Everyone gets rejected, but they just want to believe they are the only people who face rejection. It's actually pretty self-absorbed: not every girl had an easy path through the dating world just because she was born with a vagina. Some girls have been to hell and back through the dating world. Too many guys get so insecure that they assume any dose of non-rejection is positive, desirable, and will be good for them. False. They need to be more realistic and look beyond their own emotions. Because if they don't, that nasty, mean-spirited bitterness is just going to eat away at any ounce of joy and THAT'S why they will become lonely.

[vmw2008]

People don't like when they can't have what they want. It's easier to put blame on someone than to accept that, or even harder, to change yourself.

Notice how the majority of these men are complaining about "beautiful girls" in these posts. I don't see any of them changing their ideas of attraction, or going after the ugly/average girl who would accept them. So how could they expect these girls to change what they find is attractive either? I'm not even sure why they'd want us to. I'd be so hurt if I found out a guy dated me and didn't even find me attractive.

[Azara]

bc they went through all that trouble of pretending to be something they are not, and it STILL did not work out in their favor.

so they figure why he hell bother. and go back to being their crappy disrespectful selves.

mind you its much easier to be genuinely nice, when the world treats you nicely. as is often the case for good looking people. unfair as it is.

[VENOMMM]

actually its the opposite. its the assholes who are pretending to be the nice guys who show their disrespectful selves later after they got with a woman. hence all the threads started by women complaining about why they can't find nice guys.

[Azara]

I dont think 'nice guys' being jerks, cancels out assholes moonlighting as nice guys. both can co exist.

[VENOMMM]

actually they are both one and the same.

[Azara]

i think there's a distinction. being one group actually gets past trying to get sex. the other just tries.

[Anonymous]

I always wondered this, and got very angry about it. If I get called a shallow bitch one more time for rejecting some guy that I am just not into, I will punch someone. I mean, what is worse, dating someone you're not even into because you felt bad about hurting their feelings, or being honest and letting them find someone who will genuinely want to be with them?

[Opinion Owner]

And is it just me, or do guys use the term "nice guy" as a blanket term for "average looking guys who don't always get what they want?" Niceness is not associated with physical attractiveness, but I have noticed that most men think that they go hand in hand. Anyone can be nice OR mean.

[Anonymous]

Heatherjaney, alas I am not considered attractive by most women. I never was. First of all, I'd like to say that I never was angry at the women who rejected me. Ever. I never once called them shallow or bitches. I am angry that I am physically unattractive. Am I not allowed to have ANY anger at my situation at all? Any? Am I not supposed to feel sad about being rejected by every woman I've ever been into? Am I not permitted one tear about that? Now, I go about my daily life and I try to be polite and kind to the people I meet. That never changes after a woman said no to me. I don't call her names, I don't think any less of her, I continue to be polite and kind, and yet it seems as though you are saying I have no cause to be angry at my circumstance at all. I fight my anger and bitterness every day, and since I have many friends, both men and women, I think I fight it successfully. But since I'm anonymous, I can tell you it is a struggle.

I also have to disagree with you that attractiveness is "SUBJECTIVE." There are studies that show it's much less subjective than most people are willing to admit (I think because to admit that is to admit to life's injustices). Also, ugliness is much more objective, sadly. And ugly people don't find other ugly people any more attractive than attractive people do. I don't think it's shallow of you, or anyone else, to not be attracted to me or any other unattractive person. Please understand I'm not angry at you or women who reject me and I don't think you or they are shallow, but I am angry that I am unattractive. I don't know what to do about it. I have, by the way, tried dating women I wasn't attracted to. However, it was miserable and I wound up just hurting the women's hearts. I don't want to do that again.

I think I get you, heatherjaney, and I fully agree that just because a woman doesn't like me doesn't mean she's a bad or shallow person. But sometimes I am sad and angry at my situation nonetheless.

[HeatherJaney]

You can be angry I think this is one of the best posts on this question. You can be upset about being rejected and yes the title was a generalisation but that was so people would read and answer and why I stated "nice" guys in the title. To say this is about guys who claim it's the woman's fault because they are "nice" guys.

Please don't think I'm saying don't be upset. Also I would like to see these studies because I can recall many a time a friend has dated someone I would consider "ugly" but she thinks is gorgeous.

[Opinion Owner]

Asker, your response is at least as important as my post. If I could give you a virtual hug I would. I have more to say but I can't at the moment.

[Theguyoverthere]

The funny part is that a "nice guy" tends to not be so nice in a lot of ways. They can be really creepy, stalkerish, etc. But this is a case by case basis. Some guys are really just overall good guys.

We do have girls complaining about guys only chasing "hot girls" too. That is not gender specific. Guys even lie to themselves on "how nice" a hot girl is even when she could be using him for whatever she wants too. If you got a girl who knows she's physically good looking and that the guy she's talking to will do whatever she wants, many do take advantage of it. Only some of them will turn down a chance to use what they can get (free dinners, gifts, etc).

However some guys will pour their hearts out and give a girl all these things when she's not interested and it gets to the point where she is uncomfortable and smothered and runs off just to get ridiculed by this "nice guy" who suddenly goes from "These gifts were selfless" to "You used me" when she never even wanted anything from him.

[Agrojag]

There are a lot of good answers here. This only happened to me once and it's a combination of many of the reason put here. First off, I'm not a "genuinely nice" guy. To me, people aren't worth it and will only take advantage of that fact. When I am nice to a girl, it's because I really like them. To me, that means more and is quite an investment on my part. So, after a while of getting to know this girl and doing really nice things for her, I let her know I liked her. She told me she knew and that "ur hella cool" but that she "rides solo and she could only offer her friendship." To me, that's just being led on -- taking what I had to offer and never intending to reciprocate in any way. I was hurt and disappointed but I decided I'd still like to be friends so I swallowed my anger and bitterness. However, she wasn't even genuine in her offer of friendship. She became cold and distant for a long time...ntil she wanted my help again. She tried using me because she thought I was a sucker and would slave away for her with nothing coming back my way. So I blew her off and then blew up on her. She was an entitled bitchand she later failed the course because I stopped helping her. What I learned was that being nice doesn't pay off. Girls like who they like which is why so many assholes are successful because they know there's no reason to be nice. Short of murder she'll stick around. Nice guys get angry because they misappropriate time and resources towards a wasted cause and see genuinely mean and selfish people have all kinds of success.

[MildlyOriginal]

While I get that in your mind you genuinely feel that way, I have a couple things to put out there for you.

First, you were legit only doing nice things because you liked her. You were being something other than yourself because you thought "that's what I'm supposed to do" and I think that was a big mistake. It's not sincere and you'd be surprised how people in general pick up on that sort of thing.

Second, you weren't being led on. She rejected you. I've been led on before, and there's no hint at rejection or "we can only be friends". They will keep giving you wishywashy answers or promising answers but never going all the way with you to that next step. You get stuck in limbo. She didn't do that to her.

Third, while I agree it's not cool to only go to somebody when you want something, the reality is you could have just said "Nah, sorry". Until you felt like the person was worth your time. You blowing up on her is an overreaction because you felt taken advantage of. But

[MildlyOriginal]

the reality was you just didn't really set any sort of borders, and allowed things to get to that point.

Nice guys don't misappropriate time and resources towards a lost cause because they never expected to get a return on that investment to begin with. They did it because they felt like it and don't keep score. These "nice guys" are the same guy as the selfish people, just without the success part.

[Agrojag]

True. I can't disagree with you much here. I still feel led on because she was giving me "signs" I don't care yo explain fully. Like you said, truly nice people expect nohing back, which is why they get nothing. Assholes push and push until they break through. I've been more callous and selfish to girls and they liked that. Problem is, I didn't like them which is why I don't treat them well. Now I know how to act going forwards.

[Agrojag]

While it may have been an overreaction, it was so satisfying and made even better by watching her flounder without my help.

[Agrojag]

And I didn't let myself be a doormat since it appears that's what you assume. I just didn't clarify what I wanted from her until later because I wasn't sure I actually liked her. Fact is, it doesn't matter. If I had treated her like a bitch as opposed to with respect, the end result would have been equivalent. So what's the point of being nice?

[MildlyOriginal]

That last sentence sums it up "So what's the point of being nice?" A nice person doesn't ask that since being nice IS the point of being nice. And I can't say I agree with your assessment that we get nothing because we expect nothing. We get nothing from shitty people, but we don't keep shitty people in our lives.

Here's the difference between the two I think. Somebody asks two guys for 5 dollar. Guy A and guy B both do the nice thing and lend the person the money. The person says they will pay them back, never does. Guy A goes "That's what I get for being nice". Guy B goes "that was a cheap price to pay for finding out what kind of person they are." Guy B doesn't regret doing the nice thing because he would want the same done for him in that spot. He didn't expect to get paid back, instead seeing it as a way to test the word of the other person. Guy A thinks being nice "doesn't pay" because he had expectations attached to his nice deed.

[MildlyOriginal]

Guy B would do something nice not because he liked the girl, but because in the other persons shoes he would want the same done for him. Being nice is a good thing when it comes to attraction. Being nicer to try and develop bigger attraction is a failure in logic. Be nice for the sake of being nice. If you like a girl, be more flirty, not nicer.

Your mistake is thinking that nice is another tool to be used, rather than an attribute of a persons character. While being nice CAN have benefits, that's not the purpose of the trait. Same thing with being funny, or smart, or in good shape. Those things CAN have benefits when it comes to such things, but that's not the purpose of such traits. The purpose of such traits is to be comfortable with who YOU are. If you're not a nice person, I would say first consider how you prefer to be treated and simply strive to treat others that way. Beyond that, don't strive to be "nicer".

[Agrojag]

This is a very sound logic and one I agree with and have come to in my own experiences. Being nice is not an effective tool, as you say. I don't enjoy being nice for its own sake because I've seen it exploited so much that it's a weakness and I don't like the idea of helping someone who doesn't deserve it. Now I'll try alternate methods until I find something that works. You are right in what you say. I used it because that's what I thought women wanted and that it would help me succeed. I have learned that isn't the case and that it is a totally ineffective tactic.

[MildlyOriginal]

Well, at least you're not using it as a tactic anymore. Unfortunately, you're still trying to find alternate methods until "something works". Thing is, we already got that method figured out.

It's called being yourself, and it works on all the women you are supposed to be with/deserve to end up with. If you don't like the quality of people you end up with, change the quality of person you are. It's like these women that go "All I find are assholes", Well duh, because that's the quality of person she attracts. If she wants a better quality guy, she needs to become a better quality person. That might mean stop being shallow, or it might mean improving her own lifestyle, or something else entirely. But if you take 1000 women, you'll get 1000 different wants. Very few want somebody who is disingenuous though, so keep that in mind before you go search for a method that isn't primarily "be yourself".

[MildlyOriginal]

And being nice isn't a weakness. Not setting up proper boundaries is a weakness. I suggest settling up boundaries based on your own expectations. What would you want/expect a stranger to do for you in a certain situation. What would you feel would be asking too much? There's your boundary. Doesn't have to be the same for everyone, just for you. Because at the end of the day, you're always going to have people that disagree with how you live your life. But if you set your boundaries based on who you are and your own expectations, eventually somebody is going to come along who views things similarly to you. When they do, you'll both have boundaries that you understand and respect. They won't be fake or contrived or difficult to live with, because they are your own.

But if you set up boundaries based on what you think some attractive girl wants... you're bound for a trainwreck because at some point, you're not going to want to live with those boundaries anymore.

[Agrojag]

It is a weakness. Personally, I don't think it's so wrong to be nice towards someone you like -- to try and show them that you care for them and want to be with them. She was special to me and I wanted to show that to her. I felt disappointed that she didn't feel the same way I did, but I was willing to ignore that and be her friend. She offered her friendship but then ignored me until she needed help and tried to use me. That's why niceness is a weakness and most people don't deserve it. It wasn't about lack of boundaries or my insatiable, pathological sex-drive. She was a callous, selfish bitch who tried exploiting my feelings. Niceness is not something I feel towards most people and I expect nothing or less from people in general. I am nice to the people I care for -- not the population at large. That is me. I wasn't fake in treating her well because I did care about her. I've seen too many assholes who totally abused and mistreated the people they were with be successful to continu

[Agrojag]

doing the same thing and expecting different results. I've talked with girls who stayed with men who cheated on them, beat them, belittled them in every way imaginable and it worked. The only genuinely compassionate and nice guy I know has never had a girlfriend in his life because women aren't attracted to that. People aren't guaranteed to meet the people they "deserve" either. I have faults and will work on them to make myself a better person. That doesn't guarantee anything other than I will be a better man. Not that I will meet a girl who actually appreciates that. All of the semi-voodoo talk about attracting the right people and whatnot is annoying. And the fact that women are to be idolized and treated with such compassion when so many aren't worth it. It's nonsense. They are people. Nothing more. Guys don't respect compassion and generosity. Why should women? I'm not going to become a devil, but I'm certainly no longer going to go out of my way to help them or be kind.

[Agrojag]

Why are women being held in such high esteem here anyway? Just as women aren't obligated to be in a relationship with a man, a man is not obligated to be a woman's friend. Sometimes it hurts too much to be around someone you love who sees you as just another friend. It's not always about sex or misogyny. It hurts. The way people are looking at this is totally one-sided from the female's point of view. Men have feelings that get destroyed in a situation like this, but we have to sympathize with the girl because she has the right of choice? No. Both sides have their own story to tell. All the feminist sexism and bigotry is starting to really irritate me, and the fact so many guys play into it is even more aggravating.

[MildlyOriginal]

Take some time away from this then come back and reread what you wrote. You basically said people dont deserve compassion, be it women or anybody else, and so you only give that to people you care about. Believe it or not, and I sincerely mean this with no disrespect, but maybe this shows that you are ending up with the type of people you deserve.

Look, I only know this to be true because I have first hand experience. I had one bad relationship (or relationship thay failed to launch) and couldn't figure out what it was. It was me. I was one of those guys trying to be "nicer" to the people I thought I cared about. The way it came off to others? Like I was using it to get what I wanted. It came off insincere.

When I realized that and stopped trying to treat other people nicer and simply treated them as nice as everybody else, I noticed this problem disappeared completely. You can take it or leave it, but after reading what you wrote, think about how others might see that behavior.

[Agrojag]

I don't think it's as noticeable as I'm making it seem. I am always polite and I'm not malicious, but I don't go

[Agrojag]

...out of my way to do nice things for them. That is something I don't think I'll ever do. I've had too many bad experiences with people and I truly do not believe most people are worth extraordinary acts of kindness. It's not a stark transformation or a performance I put on. Treating her better should show she's special. Why is that bad or disingenuous? For instance, one day I surprised her with her favorite food at work. Should I have found out what her coworkers liked and brought things for them too? I don't think so. While I agree that treating people nicer than you would others is no guarantee a person will like you

[Agrojag]

...and that person is under no obligatiin to like you, I've learned frim experience and observation being the nice guy, whether "genuine" or not, doesn't work as a dating strategy.

[Agrojag]

Your "ending up with the people you deserve" is superstitious drivel, I think. It's like saying if you work hard you're guaranteed to be rich. Certainly not true. The guy I mentioned before -- the nice one -- recently got rejected by a girl. I guess by your reasoning that's what deserved? I know another great guy. You know what he is? Divorced. I guess that's what he deserved. Your karma-infused reasoning on this is not grounded in reality. Oh, and the most recent girl attracted to my nice friend was a disheveled blob of a woman with a personality as grotesque. Guess that's what he deserves. Further proof being nice in whatever form doesn't work -- even by your mystic laws of the world.

[Agrojag]

It also makes it seem like women are some commodity you can save up for to buy with good deeds and self-improvement. In that case, forget all these normal women. I'll just work out, finish my degree, work on my character flaws and cash it in for a supermodel.

[MildlyOriginal]

What I'm saying is you never should have shown up at her work with her favorite food to begin with. Unless this girl is your bondafide long term girlfriend, you shouldn't have done that because you won't have done it unless you wanted something more from her. That's what I'm saying. If you want a ROMANTIC relationship, be romantic, not nicer. That means asking her out, then increasing flirtatious behavior, breaking the touch barrier, taking a risk at the right moment and going for a kiss. None of that is being "nicer".

You said " Treating her better should show she's special." and that's exactly your problem, you're treating this girl special when it's not called for. If you're talking about some girl you're already in a relationship with, that's fine. But when it comes to a woman you're not already involved with? However nice you are to other people, that's how nice you treat her. You change your behavior towards her STRICTLY in a romantic sense. That's it.

[MildlyOriginal]

As for getting what you deserve, it's simply the law of averages. Over the short term, no, people rarely get what they deserve. Over the long term? Yeah, people often get exactly what they deserve. Even then, people can have long runs of bad luck which can give off the impression it doesn't work that way. But everything I have seen and experience lends itself to that law of averages. Over the long term, your behavior is going to push away certain types of people and draw others. In the short term that won't always be true, but in the long term it constantly happens.

A person with a solid personality, who puts effort into bettering themselves, and makes an effort to socialize avoiding the bitterness, they all eventually find the right people. It's inevitable. There's simply too many people out there for it not to happen. There's only so many combinations people can come out in. While everybody is unique, there's only so many combinations of the major difference in people.

[MildlyOriginal]

And perhaps we have slightly different ideas of "deserve" To me deserve is a simple matter of the total sum of your actions and behaviors bring you the appropriate results. A person might genuinely be nice and well intending, but they might also be lazy and shallow. Their sum behaviors in the long run brings them the type of results they "deserve" because that's what the sum of their behaviors results in.

[Agrojag]

Ok. On this point I agree completely. It was a mistake based on my lack of experience. I read too many books and have seen too many movies where the guy courts the girl and she falls for hoim. I thought that's what you were supposed to do. I had it in reverse. I still can't agree with you on the benefits of niceness -- be it selective or general -- and I can't agree with your belief in getting what you "deserve" but the way I acted was misguided and wrong. I accept that and will learn from it. You made some good points and I respect your opinion.

[MildlyOriginal]

You're looking at nice as if it is the sole barometer to what a person does or doesn't deserve. There are plenty of other factors that come into effect then simply whether a person is nice or not, or the degree of nice they are.

Also, rejection isn't a bad thing. Divorce is financially a bad thing, but in terms of relationships it's not a bad thing. Very few species on this planet have a very good successful pairing rate, and most of them aren't "faithful" in that sense. Relationships fail for a variety of reasons. Short of marrying your best friend (which I would definitely suggest if you ever want to get married), it's usually going to fail eventually. Eventually looks fade, the honeymoon period ends, and what you've got is hopefully a great friend of the opposite sex that you enjoy being around. You can't look at failure as a bad thing but a learning experience. If you grow from it, eventually that progression gets you where you want to go.

[Agrojag]

I didn't see your explanation of "deserve" before I submitted my reply. That I will concede is a possibility. I still don't agree it's a GUARANTEE but it's a possibility and in some cases you're totally right. Would you also say it works both ways? That girls who consistently date jerks, get played, abused, etc. "deserve" that as well? Because they haven't made the necessary self-improvements to attract better men?

[Agrojag]

I may have to get to my computer because I'm too slow on my phone. Haha! I agree that failure is not totally bad -- many lessons to be had. I always learn from my failures, but there is always more to learn. Perhaps I am petty and spiteful but I don't think it's necessary or honorable to treat the cause of your failure with courtesy or respect if this reason attempted to exploit and use you. Everyone fails more than they succeed. This I realize. I guess we just have different codes of conduct, but we agree that one should always learn from their failures and mistakes.

[Agrojag]

@MildlyOriginal: would you mind sharing your thoughts on this question. I genuinely would like to see what your opinion is.

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../q1002102-why-is-it-when-a-guy-is-super-nice-i-get-cringed-out-but-if-a-guy-is

[MildlyOriginal]

Those women definitely deserve it. I've known some such women and I've told them in a tactful way that it's what they bring on themselves.

[MildlyOriginal]

I can't, she immediately blocked me when I disagreed with her statement "Women aren't shallow". I told her "Some women are most definitely shallow (just like some guys are)" and she told me to keep it to myself...

[Anonymous]

It depends. In a lot of cases it should have been very clear from the start that he liked her, and that was the reason he was being so super nice. In that case she was leading him on and taking advantage of his feelings for her.

A lot of the women that do this to guys then act all self righteous about him, not really being nice, and was only pretending to be her friend, but most of the time, he made it super obvious to everyone that he liked her. So if she rejects him after using him for a long time, he has a good reason to be angry.

I have noticed that after a nice guy, has had his feeling trampled on by girl, that knew he liked her, the guy will often see any rejection, as women not liking nice guys. This happens to a lot more guys than you realize. This are the nice guys that later turn into assholes.

I have seen my cousin lead on several guys, for years at a time. She is just using them for favors and money, but always friendly enough to make the guy think he has a chance. After being used for years, these guys get so hurt, they now treat all women like shit.

Other times it is simply a matter of being hurt. People commonly use anger to mask our pain.

[PhiOmega]

I think I can look at this objectively cause I don't really date, for several reasons I'm trying to focus on school now.

I might stray from your question a little in the fact that I think I agree, girls shouldn't settle, but go for what they want and also I can't see why a guy would be outwardly mad about a girl rejecting him for someone that makes her happy Ave is also nice.

What I have noticed with a minority of girls tho is sometimes they get in approach guys saying there hot and wanna hang out allowing them to believe they might be able to start a relationship, but within a few weeks she gives him the cold shoulder, "dumps" him and instantly she's in a relationship with another guy or a guy and a girl are exclusive for a while and then she dumps him for some taco Bell drive through looser all while she starts bad mouthing you

As far as being specific to what you stated your totally right about attraction being subjective, while I would say most girls find me very attractive (even if they don't date black guys) some I think probably don't and as far as the rest goes all I can say is it probably just really hurts to be rejected or not good enough for someone you care about

[PhiOmega]

The guys I'm referring to aren't like the ones mentioned in the most helpful, they never bad mouth these girls afterwards, I've just heard many personal stories only shared between friends they're usually a little down but cut all ties to the ex

For this reason I've actually had many more girls than guys tell me not to get in a relationship now

[AndyWes]

Simple.

Men are taught from a young age, that if you want women, you need to be nice, kind, and respectful and not push for sex.

So basically they're being sabotaged from the get go as far as dating goes, and when they start figuring it out, it's outrageous.

Let me give you a real life example. Recently, the market for law grads has become terrible. Yet law schools manipulated the employment numbers to lie to people, to get more students in. So these law school grads go through the trouble, graduate, then find out what they learned is worse than useless. They were lied to that if they did the stuff and learned it, they could succeed, but that's the opposite of the truth. So now, there are literally dozens of lawsuits against law schools about this.

[HeatherJaney]

I study law myself in the UK though we have a problem with too many law students but we have mediocre students the excellent students get help finding placements because who would want to hire a mediocre lawyer.

[AndyWes]

Most people in any profession are mediocre by definition, you know.

[HeatherJaney]

Would you want someone average to represent you or the best their is.

[AndyWes]

Given how horrendously high legal costs run, I doubt I could afford a good lawyer, much less a great one.

The reality is that most people in every profession are average. By definition, only a tiny percent of lawyers, the top 10% or so, count as excellent. And that's far too few to meet the needs of the legal system.

[AndyWes]

Anyway, you're missing the point. Nice guys who get upset about rejection are angry because they have de facto been lied to. They've been taught that if you're nice, kind, respectful, and don't try to get sex, you'll find some nice girl and have a love affair.

Then they learn in reality, the men who succeed with women are pretty much the opposite. They get sex quickly, they are not very respectful of women--more like teasing and taking her less than seriously--and are most definitely not "nice."

Which is what every boy is taught from youth by mommy. "If you're not nice no girl will ever like you!"

So they go out in real life and find out they've been lied to and the exact opposite of what they thought is how you date--is how you date and get women.

[madhatters4]

well the same can be said for both sexes.

but some people just don't take rejection well or they take it very personally.

but as usual lets not make this so gender specific. I've seen posts from both sexes bashing the other sex for what amounts to simple, 'I'm not into you' kind of stuff

[HeatherJaney]

Oh I'm not saying only guys feel that way I apoligise if I did. I am just sick of the amount of arguments I've had on this site where guys say I am one of those bitches and would dump my BF for a more attractive guy.

[HeatherJaney]

Did come across that way*

[madhatters4]

well those are really silly immature boys who probably treat women poorly or have a bad approach. are angry about their lack of success and take it out on girls on this site. I've seen these angry men...and women. I try to just avoid those arguments because it inevitably gets pretty nuts

[kheserthorpe]

They feel angry about rejection because they put too much effort in each time. They try to be nice, build a good base of friendship, not come on strong, and then try to move things to the next level. They've plowed months in by this point, and it was basically a waste of time. No, your friendship isn't worth the fact they've been basically monogamous to you the whole time so they're not a 'player', not to mention probably treating you far better then they treat actual friend-friends.

None of that is the girl's fault, generally.

But they just need to start hitting on far more girls and investing way less until they're getting real positive signals back.

Part of their problem is most of them have NEVER gotten positive signals back so can't tell friendly from genuine interest.

[Anonymous]

In their minds, they see themselves as exhibiting the ideal traits that women go after, or would want in the end (and maybe women are just unaware of it at the time). So when they get rejected because they're incredibly boring, straight, or worse- fake...it doesn't register with them that THEY are the problem, not the girl.

Guys who are "nice guys", as opposed to guys that are nice, seem to put a lot of overt effort into being seen and taken as nice. This is where the fakeness comes into play. When you aren't genuine, it shows and is a turn-off. This causes them to get rejected and in the end, they get upset because all their hard work and conscious efforts DIDN'T pay off.

So that must mean girls are the stupid ones that can't see something good right in front of them, right? :)

[halafax]

Mildyoriginal has it spot on. They aren't nice guys. They play the nice guy and hope that it will win them points so that they can get a chance with the girl that they are hanging out with. If the chick isn't into the chick isn't into you. Same goes for girls in that if the guy isn't into you then he isn't into you. So why do people get mad over things like this? Because they aren't nice people. they are not good people. Guys like this think there is some obligation for the girl to go out with him because he has been nice to her, and listened to her. I dislike people like this because they are fake. If you are genuine and are a nice guy or girl then it won't matter. Sometimes feelings take a left turn and you are like hey I like this person, but its not always reciprocated.
This comic sums it up: https://imgur.com/gallery/RmAjE

[Broncosfan21]

I do not know? Most people consider me a nice guy and I have never been rejected..just had my now ex leave me for another dude. I would assume that some guys who are not chick magnets see these arrogant guys who are attractive get these girls they wish they could be with and so they are are upset that some girls only look at appearance and do not give them a shot. I also have experienced where "the type of guy you described" was being very nice to my former girlfriend just because he wanted an attractive girlfriend so bad. In that case the niceness was actually selfishness. Nice guys usually finish last because they are not as aggressive and at a younger age woman love the bad boy or mystery guy. Ironically women want to end up with the nice guys, but reject them during their younger more superficial days..my opinion

[Anonymous]

I can compartmentalize. Sure you may be a nice person to OTHER people. Who gives a shit about that? I only care about if you're a nice person to me.

Look, I'm sure you're a nice lady. I bet you pay your taxes, help your neighbor take out her garbage and you're willing to drive your friend to the airport. Don't give a shit.

If you act like a stuck up cunt that only dates sexy flexy ass niggas, then I'm going to put you into a mental box. That's just the way I think of you in my head. Don't take offense. It's not like I'm going to call you a stupid cunt to your face. Like I said, I'm sure you're a perfectly nice person.

I'm sure Donald Sterling's a nice guy when he's not speaking in a private conversation with close friends. Stop criminalizing thought crime people.

[extraordinaryidiot]

Nice guys? Nice people won't boast about themselves. And they definitely won't call themselves as "nice". Because thy are too busy being nice that they don't "notice" it in them. That's called humility.

And for the guys who call themselves as "nice guys". They simply lack self-confidence and willpower. And in the end, when they have nobody to blame. They blame it on a title (nice guy).

Note: Some women are equally whiny. So I won't rule out women either.

[DutchAtheist]

There is something really messed up in this world that considering yourself as being "nice" is considered "boasting".

[extraordinaryidiot]

Well this whole world is messed up. That's for sure. Our brains are also messed up. So you thinking that this world is messed up is no big deal.

If you "think" of yourself as a nice person. Then good luck. But behind the "nice guy" title and using it as self pity to gain empathy from the public is more messed up in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

They think that any girl that they are nice to is obligated to date him and have sex with him, despite her own wishes. When they are suddenly hit with the realization that being nice doesn't entitle him to any girl of his choosing, he shows his true colors.

[VENOMMM]

actually i think being nice just entitles me to a chance to be with a girl i am trying to ask out. anything else that happens after is a result of future actions

[LovelySerene]

Ugh! Thank you! If a guy get's super pissed off about being rejected, then good riddance, obviously they have anger issues, and aren't nice at all

[shannon21]

I agree. Its sooo annoying. I guess rejection is harder for them. As they are already at a loss in their view. Most nice guys say they are ugly or not in a girls league. Which is silly. Women aren't shallow. We like who we like

[MildlyOriginal]

I wouldn't go so far as to make a broad statement that "women aren't shallow". I've met plenty of very shallow women. (And just as many men as well)

[shannon21]

Look you've had your say. An that's my view. Its not up for discussion its my opinion. Just like yours is above

[VENOMMM]

women aren't shallow lol that is a good one. if this site had a laugh track i would have used it for that post right there

[shannon21]

That's great. Whatever makes you happy :D

[inamorata]

Some don't mean it and say it in sadness and bitterness.
Some are angry because they were sneaky and failed. (Project their lack of kindness onto you and then hate you for it.)
Others feel like they've been strung along.
Some were strung along.

[Thatguy321]

Because that nice guy gets mad after he kissed so much ass and was acting like the girls gay friend and didn't make any movies, he gets mad because he felt he disserved her love im guessing

[Slavanna]

I guess I've finally found someone who understands women. It's true, my dear friend, the key to a girl's heart is making movies *teary eyed* YOU GET US.

[MildlyOriginal]

Woody Allen style, beotch

[VENOMMM]

i have seen as many if not more threads started by women who complain about being used by players and assholes and complain that there are no nice guys out there. and on top of that most of them admit to still wanting to be with those assholes that played them. so yeah keep believing the crap you just posted in this question.

[HeatherJaney]

If you read the entire page which I'm sure you didn't I said various times I agree women do it to -.-'

[VENOMMM]

yeah i read it. i am just saying women do it more often.

[HeatherJaney]

Women claim they are friend zoned and girls only like arseholes more? Because that was my question.

[VENOMMM]

you obviously didn't read my orignal response. i said there have been way more threads started by women complaining about there not being any nice guys after being used and abused by assholes.

[HeatherJaney]

Well that wasn't relevant to the question I asked.

[VENOMMM]

yeah it is when you said that girls going for the hot guys wasn't relevant

[HeatherJaney]

You're grammar is atrocious please re-word that comment

[VENOMMM]

"I see question after question of "friend zoning bitches" or "nice guys finish last".

Just because a girl doesn't like you doesn't mean that they are a bad person or only likes arseholes.

And it also annoys me when they say girls only go for hot guys." this is the part of your question that made what i said relevant. is that clear now?

[HeatherJaney]

How does that make your question relevant? I said that they won't just go for attractive guys; how does that link to "players and assholes"?

[VENOMMM]

i wasn't saying a question. i was stating a fact that actually go against what you said.

[HeatherJaney]

How does the bit about attractiveness is subjective get dis-proven by your point?

[VENOMMM]

because all the shallowness that gets shown by both sexes , disproves that statement. just look at dating sites.

[HeatherJaney]

So you're saying people don't view different people as attractive?

[VENOMMM]

most of the time no since a majority of people are very shallow. dating sites prove that

[VENOMMM]

now you may not want to believe me but i am not as shallow as you think i may be. my most serious relationship (4 years) was with a overweight woman who wasn't hot. she was cute though and i liked her a lot. it ended because we didn't love eachother enough

[HeatherJaney]

So everyone in the world is attracted to the exact same kind of person?

[HeatherJaney]

Calling her overweight and not hot is shallow

[VENOMMM]

i never said i wasn't shallow at all. the thing is i was attracted to her until the love started to fade. i was always complimenting here and everything

[VENOMMM]

by the way there were two more threads about women falling for jerks and assholes started here in just the last few hours alone. so you mind telling me how i was wrong?

[Anonymous]

It's hard for them not to get down and say that when they have been rejected so many times. If you always heard..."Well you nice I don't want to date you because I don't want to ruin our friendship"...even a nice guy is going to start getting a little upset.