"Girls Don't Know What They Want [in Relationships]": The Real Reasons Behind This Male-Created Myth

[AmandaYVR]

This is the first in a series of articles I'll be writing debunking some commonly-held myths about dating, society and life.

Myths are beliefs - widely-held but false and erroneous conclusions. They make sense, they're convenient, they seem to fit... but they are simply not true.

Model Romee Strijd

First up: "Girls don't know what they want."

I'll give you some latitude here, men, because:

1. It's complicated

2. Sometimes it's true

3. You're the ones with most of the direct experience dating women

You think they're fickle, emotional, irrational, constantly changing their minds, and moving the goal posts. But you're only seeing the surface. You don't see the reasons beneath. You want to simplify women, simplify life, get down to the nuts and bolts, but some things just cannot be simplified. So here are...

Some of the Real Reasons Behind What Appears to be Female Indecision in Romantic Relationships:

I can't cover all scenarios here, but I included some from the beginning of relationships, some middle, and some end. So bear with me.

1. She Didn't Know Your Interest Was Romantic

Coffee date?

Call it dense, call it self-deprecation, or self-doubt, but sometimes, she just doesn't know. You reached out to her, made a suggestion, but was it clear you had romantic interest in her? "But it's obvious." No, it's not. Why? Because you didn't say it. You didn't want to proclaim your interest too directly because 1. You were protecting yourself and didn't exactly want to get hurt either, or 2. You didn't know what it/she was yet, or could be, or 3. You thought it might scare her away. But "Hey, want to grab a cup of coffee sometime?" is less than clear. It's good, in that it doesn't put pressure on her, but it also leaves the interpretation very wide open. If you met on a dating app, it's clear. If you are colleagues through work, or any number of other contexts, it's not.

And it begs the question, can men and women be friends? That debate will likely continue until the end of time, but my personal opinion is that the answer is a resounding "Yes." I know some of you take the 'We're all just animals, essentially', more primal view of mankind, and I don't deny it makes up a significant portion of who we are and how we behave, but I'll continue to argue that it is where we may have begun, but not where we have ended up.

Our brains are massive, unparalleled in the animal kingdom (our only other comparison, thus far), and our higher-thinking, grey matter, cerebral cortexes take up a hell of a lot of real estate up there, so while evolution does take time, we have had over 500,000 years (in this general form), to evolve. It is my view that it is the men of the world who long for those olden, 'golden,' more primal days, where it was more acceptable, more the norm, to act on impulse, and satisfy one's urges, and they are not too happy about all this comparative, civilized, 'walking on eggshells' of today.

When men see women not as equals and partners and fellow, more-similar-than-different human beings, they can only be relegated to conquests and fuck buddies. It is they who believe 'Men and women can't be friends' because to them, sex will always be the primary benefit of commingling. And to them I say, come out of the water, boys. Stand on those two legs. Time is marching on... without you.

Takeaway: When you don't make your intentions known, she will be guessing whether your interest is romantic, or something else. The less you appear to invest into her, the more she will wonder.

2. She's Trying to Assess Whether Your Interest is Hookup or Relationship-Based

I'm not going to say that all females are ultimately seeking committed relationships, but I do know that the majority are.

If you are/were looking, would you prefer an actual relationship, or a casual hookup?

Do you prefer short term or long term relationships?

What level of commitment are you seeking in a relationship?

Now on the male side, in the first poll, 59% of males are seeking a committed relationship; which leaves 41% of males causing the 82% of females to have to question, "Is this guy just trying to use me for sex?" Answer? Statistically speaking, yes.

Is it any wonder, then, that she's coming at you with her magnifying glass, analyzing everything you do, in order to come to a conclusion about your intentions? She knows you're interested... for now... but will you disappear after you get her into bed? That's the million-dollar question.

And yes, there is a growing number of females who are just looking for casual flings (even if they are not accurately represented in these particular polls.) We should not dismiss this latest incarnation of women's sexual liberation. But no matter how I phrase the question, the numbers are consistently lower than what many people think. Here, as an example, only 3% of females answered that they want #hookups and nothing more.

Girls, Single ladies: why are you not in a relationship?

Takeaway: If you are one of the relationship-seeking guys, and you are frustrated, what appears as indecision on her part, is actually her being cautious, and not wanting to be used sexually then discarded.

3. She's Still Collecting More Data Points

You base your initial interest in a girl on primarily your physical attraction to her. Later, you care about other (all) aspects of her, but in the beginning, it's mostly physical appearance. She, on the other hand, is taking everything in, from the very beginning. She's assessing all aspects of you. You want to go with your gut, have fun, and worry about investing and wasting too much time and getting #friendzoned. But she's still in the data-collection phase. You think she's being indecisive, because she doesn't make decisions as quickly as you, and to some extent this is true, but all things are relative.

Consider this a holding pattern while she decides, not that she'll never decide.

4. It's a Number's Game for You, and She Knows It

In today's dating world filled with dating apps galore, countless social media options for communicating, a globalized, interconnected world, and travel and airfare being relatively affordable, the dating pool is the largest it's ever been, and your male counterparts are pinging like there's no tomorrow. They have created the competition, with their wide-net, non-discerning approach.

If I have to hear one more time on here, 'If you want to know how to fish, don't ask the fish' I might just scream (although to be fair, I suspect it is one anonymous guy who is responsible for close to every instance of this phrase.) The fish know what type of bait they like, what type of boat, when they want to feed, and just how many other fish are in the pond. They also talk to the other fish (often in detail, way more than you do - this level of analysis is off the charts compared to yours); they study their competitors, watch lesbian porn for body, technique, and beauty standards comparisons, and they assume, as a precautionary, defensive strategy, that you only want them for one thing. So your 'hey' doesn't mean much of anything to them. And there's a hundred more where that came from.

So if you really wanted to stack the decks more in your favour, you'd have to all collectively decide not to swipe yes on every. single. girl. (Blame Sean Rad, original Founder and CEO of Tinder for changing the face of internet dating, irreparably, for that one.)

"But we have to." I know. It's a raw deal. And you guys have been staring at your empty inboxes, and have learned efficiency and about being proactive, and lowering your standards, "Because if we don't, we won't get any action or interest at all." Yes, but that's only because you're all doing it. (Can you really call it a strategy when everyone's doing it?) (And yes, I've chatted with some of you about this, and the experimenters have concluded that volume works best, but I notice some very distinct differences in those who are successful, and those who are not. So don't think a 'hey' is ever going to work. Period.)

But let's be realistic. All the men of the world are simply not going to have a meeting and say, "Hey, let's all not slide into all their DMs anymore. Let's choose more carefully." This is not going to happen. You're going to continue doing what you do, get crickets, periodically crawl into a depressed hole over their lack of mutual interest, and the pattern will continue.

5. The Attention is an Ego Boost to Her Self-Esteem

She's not interested in you romantically, but the attention sure does feel nice. Let's face it - you like boobs, she likes Likes.

The lower her self-esteem, the more she may act in accordance with boosting it, and that often means via quantity, not quality. The more men praise, the more it temporarily fills the well.

Or, by contrast, a narcissist who is full of confidence (albeit a bastardized version of it), will think she deserves a never-ending supply of suitors.

The challenge is differentiating between the genuinely sweet and insecure (or confident but still appreciative of praise), and the narcissist who's simply masquerading as sweet. Choose wisely, and you could help build up a girl who could use a little support. Choose poorly, and you're helping to create an ever-increasing population of narcissists.

6. The Rise of the Narcissist, and Illusion of Higher SMV

#SMV = Social/sexual Market Value

She thinks her market value is higher than it actually is. Because of you, thirsty boys. Because of all your Follows, DMs, Likes, 'Tips' and affirmations that, in fact, her "boobs are not too big." (Are you still falling for that one? Uh, she already knows the answer.) She feels like she's in high-demand, but hasn't yet figured out that all those don't translate into an actual relationship, or partnership; and that's where the true value is, in someone making a commitment, forsaking all others. That's the big ticket item that is so often just out of reach. To be loved, and to love someone as much as you love yourself. (Fyi, the phrase used to be 'to love someone more than you love yourself', but that one is not so popular nowadays, in this age of self-love, dignity, and 'confidence.')

As they say, 'If you want to kill this beast, you can't just chop the tail. You have to cut the head.' Okay, that's a big dramatic, but you get the point. Feeding into #narcissism only emboldens the ego.

7. It's a Game: She Thinks She's the Prize, and Wants You to Try and Win Her

It's not indecision. She's playing you. She wants you to think she's in high-demand, because for a select few males, this strategy works. She wants to instill a sense of competition in you. Problem is, she doesn't know that the vast majority of men hate game-playing. They end the game.

Again, it's not indecision, it's strategy.

8. The Paradox of Choice

Just pretend these are guys (There are no great guy photos like these so here you go)

Look at all these lovely ladies. How to pick just one?

The Paradox is essentially about anxiety which is created as a byproduct by an abundance of choice. Studies have concluded that choices numbering more than three cause 'decision paralysis.' This applies to everything, all products, etc., not just people.

In a sea of choices (in this case, men) the mind becomes frantic and instead of choosing one and making a committed and concerted effort to see where it goes, the decider chooses nothing, because nothing is less stressful than making 'the wrong choice', or having to juggle multiple choices.

9. Supply & Demand

The illusion of a seemingly unlimited supply does turn people into greedy gophers. (That's not a medical term, I know. Is it Canadian? I have no idea. But I like to keep some of these fun, old-timey phrases alive.) The dating marketplace is filled to capacity right now. There are more singles, fewer marrieds, than ever before. So, the more choice, the more competition. Sorry if you're not rising to the top, but that's basic supply and demand. It takes something special to be noticed, and chosen, in times of bounty.

10. She Doesn't Want to Hurt You

Most of you would rather, "Just tell me if you're not interested," but she doesn't see it that way. She's very, very afraid of hurting your feelings, and in her mind, it's way more hurtful to be direct and say what, specifically, she doesn't like about you and to give a flat out "no." She will do everything to avoid this, because although you say you want the truth, it's extremely difficult to give just the right amount of truth.

11. She Wants to Avoid Conflict

Just like girls, guys might demand specifics, and specifics lead to awkwardness and conflict. Directness is not how females typically prefer to communicate. Conflict, differences of opinion, debates, all stress them out (much more than you.) Her sensitivity expands to others, not just herself, and an intense back-and-forth is the last thing she wants to do (just like men, when facing a woman.) Thus, the internet tools of #blocking and #ghosting are all too common.

But these truths about where a person's head is at, are really the one thing which can bring closure, and closure is what ultimately allows people to move on with their life. It's something we should all strive to give to those we have any care for at all.

12. She's Thinking Not Only of Herself, But of Her Future Potential Offspring

Birth control options are plentiful. Many adults are choosing not to have children. The middle class has shrunk in numbers yet continues to bear the biggest brunt of economic responsibility, globally, making having and raising children a very costly venture. Yet despite all of these sea changes, pregnancies still do happen, and all logic and planning aside, if a woman gets pregnant, it is she that will ultimately be responsible for birthing and raising that child. Some men leave. Many men leave. And there's no point in the good, responsible men arguing about paternal rights, court injustices, pro-choice, etc. etc. in this particular context (I know they're all true, they're just not relevant here), as in this context, it is still, and will always remain, a key reason in her tentativeness to pursue a relationship, particularly a sexual one.

13. Her Expectations Are [Too] High

She knows what she wants, but she also knows she can't seem to find it in one tidy package. Men are no different. The most important question people face, often, is, 'Is this person the one?'

Arguments can be made in both directions. A person who settles for much less than what they had always hoped and waited for, may end up ultimately feeling discontented, unfulfilled, walking away. That could be considered a waste by both people. (Although how many years is a waste? Perhaps relationships should be assigned more than pass/fail, success/failure.)

Yet a person who never settles at all can find themselves wasting the best years of their life unnecessarily alone, lonely. (This is not directed towards those who are single and content. It is for those who lament what they never had, nor could find.)

No one ever truly knows who is the right person and when is the right time. It's anyone's guess, and the only way to find out for sure is to take the leap. The name of the game is compromise. Give more than your 'fair share', never count to 50% or stop there. Recognize that no one is perfect, not even you, and commitment is a choice. Any expectations beyond this are probably going to end in disappointment. The best anyone can do (and especially women) is temper their expectations for what a relationship, and another person, can be. Seeking another person to make you whole, feel complete, and happy forever more, is a tall order. Making you smile, feel loved - those are simpler, realistic, goals, that are more attainable, and everyone deserves.

14. Hypergamy

I might as well bring it up, since I know some of you will. There's no disputing it - some females are opportunists. Some guys are always looking for their next lay; some girls are always looking to level-up their lifestyle. For them, it's a bit less about the man, than what the man provides for them. This makes both women and men seem fickle, and they are. But more so, it's about being an opportunist.

Spoiler: The most likely to do this are the ones who base their initial attraction to the other on the externals - for men, that's the woman's body and the sex they have with them; for women, it's the money, status, power, and anything that brings a more comfortable lifestyle. When these are the main markers of choice, partners are seen as easily replaceable. Both partners.

15. She Changed

Uh, yeah, people do. Life is often long, and the more we experience, the more we touch, the more chance there is of change. Sometimes it's for the better, sometimes for the worse, but progress and wisdom are more likely with age. And this, of course, applies to both genders, and all people.

Sometimes time makes one lose appreciation for what once satisfied them. Sometimes more aspects of their partner's personality were revealed, and it just became intolerable. Or life kicked them in the ass, and the stress of their experience drove them apart, instead of together. Some people choose not to stay together, when they have grown apart, and really, that's their prerogative. We are all human, all flawed, and all subject to the ravages of experience and time.

In Conclusion

I'm not justifying or defending these reasons or actions. I could say that some of them are inexcusable; some are wrong; some should not exist (all true), but they are also not things I wish to argue (I've written on them elsewhere already, and I don't believe this is the context for that.) My point in writing this is merely to counter and add some explanation as to why the 'Girls don't know what they want' idea prevails (amongst men.)

I believe this myth exists because shallow analyses are the norm. Why?

• Lack of personal accountability and deflection of blame (everyone does it, it's not gender-specific. Humans are naturally defensive)
• Lack of knowledge and life experience (attention economy distraction, stress, low intellectual curiosity; anti-intellectualism; stunted maturity/growth rates; looser parenting styles; more focus on carefree childhoods and teenage years' responsibility focused on only schoolwork and most other time is allotted for leisure; rising student debt, young adults living longer with parents)
• Overpopulation creating a highly competitive world without enough resources and opportunities to meet all citizens (ex: 'Nice guys finish last', the '80/20' myth, 'I just can't catch a break here')
• Lack of equity in a biased, hierarchical world where opportunities are not equally distributed to all
• The internet (#groupthink; tribalism; self-made, opportunistic youtube influencers spouting unsubstantiated advice for profit)
• Low intelligence (declining global intelligence scores; de-prioritizing of educational system; machine automation; outsourcing of problems and challenges)
• In short, people seem to be forgetting how to think

But mostly... yes, women are complicated. They are like the riddle that just won't quit. Sorry, guys. You want shortcuts, but there aren't really any. The short answer to this long take, is that there are no short answers. You just have to remain curious, open, and try and ride the wave. It'll (she'll) drive you nuts sometimes, but it won't be boring (probably.) We add spice to each other's life. But don't worry, they'll be some nice, fun, chill times, in between the chaos.

[JSmuve]

Very well-written, thoughtful take and it underlines the fact that without honest communication and an understanding of what each sex wants, there will undoubtedly be miscommunication and misunderstandings between women and men. I think a lot of this can be fixed up a bit by men figuring out what they want from a particular woman and not being afraid of communicating it. That would take care of points 1 and 2. We also need to stop giving women so much unearned attention just for mastering photoshop and looking good. We need to hold them accountable for their bad behaviour instead of feeding their egos for being aesthetically pleasing. That would address 4-9 and force them to become more well-rounded women.

I think a lot of where this myth comes from is seeing women say one thing and respond to something else, which you partially bring up in points 10 and 11. But by essentially lying to guys, they're spreading misinformation which guys then see play out in the real world and come to conclusion that "if she's going for something that is the opposite of what she said she wanted, then clearly she doesn't know what she wants. Otherwise she would've said it in the first place." Again, this could've been cleared up by being honest. So that one falls on women.

[madgoat]

A very long piece but it made sense to me and was an interesting and surprisingly open read.
If I have a conclusion, it's this: with all that going on in her mind, he's going to have to take his time with her if he's really interested, and let her see enough of him and understand the potential. If he's smart, he'll use this time to get an understanding of her.
The scary thing for me is change. You can marry, set up family and do everything right. But who knows what you'll both be like in 10 years time.

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you, madgoat, and I think you are exactly right on all points. 🎯

[DarkCarousel]

"Now on the male side, in the first poll, 59% of males are seeking a committed relationship; which leaves 61% of males causing the 82% of females to have to question, "Is this guy just trying to use me for sex?" Answer? Statistically speaking, yes."


One thing that I have seen on dating apps, such as Bumble, is a high number of guys selecting "don't know yet" in response to what they're looking for. The options are [looking for] "marriage", "relationship", "something casual", "I don't know", or you have the option to leave that piece off completely.


I do have to point out the obvious that I don't know the flip side of what women are writing as what they are looking for. However, it is my assumption (we all know what happens when we assume), that "I don't know" is selected because they either don't want to be forward about wanting something casual OR that they feel like selecting "relationship" means the woman assumes they want a relationship immediately after matching. OR he literally has no idea what he wants and that's a reckless decision to put my heart into.


"Is it any wonder, then, that she's coming at you with her magnifying glass, analyzing everything you do, in order to come to a conclusion about your intentions?"



So now I'm analyzing their profile, thinking this looks like a great guy but I'm playing roulette by putting my heart out there and possibly developing feelings for someone who doesn't know what he wants.


Next step in the bumble process--- ladies message first. It's basically what sets Bumble apart from other dating apps (from what I can see). On many profiles, I see this, "Be interesting. Don't just say 'hey'." OK, so we have a reasonably attractive man, who "doesn't know" what he wants, has very little information in his bio, and he wants me to engage him in "interesting" conversation right out of the gate. This creates a weird predicament of either directly commenting on his looks (which leads him to think I'm only interested in the physical), stating something obscure that may or may not catch his intrigue, OR telling him about myself (which gives him the idea that I just want to talk incessantly about myself).


Phew, it's been a wild ride already. Side note-- I'm well aware that men have been the approaches or first texters since the dawn of time and it's long past the time where women take the turn. *continued... re-state://background_color_rgba (0, 0, 0, 0), font_color_rgb (77, 77, 77), justifyLeft

[DarkCarousel]

*the glitch/error at the bottom is yet another problem with the GaG app. Any time I type on my notes app and then paste it here, it copies that glitch.

[loves2learn]

Your math is off hun. If 59% are seeking committed that would be 41% the other ladies have to worry about.

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you, this was so interesting. It's great to contrast or compare the experience from the other side. I didn't know Bumble was distinct like that. It sounds exhausting, interpreting everything.
Bug noted. 👍

@loves2learn Thank you, loves. You are correct. I've made the edit up top.

[jerdanro]

This is great. Especially the part about that first message. That is the hardest part on dating apps and as often as women just poof, it gets to be exhausting. So, I guess Bumble puts that aggregation on the women. Lol

[jerdanro]

*aggravation.

[cjmtherfcker]

Depending on who responds he is likely down for any of those options. hence I don't know

[DarkCarousel]

*continued...
I wanted to comment on more but I got pulled away from my computer.

"The Attention is an Ego Boost to Her Self-Esteem."
This section. I can't fully agree or disagree with this observation. Attention (for any human) can feel somewhat lifting (?) but it doesn't hold the same value as when it comes from someone who genuinely cares about your well-being. It's like the economics you mentioned. If the world is doling out mindless "likes" then they are not going to be as valuable or meaningful. Appreciation > Attention. Always. (You and I have had this conversation before about appreciation.)

And lastly, Holy Wow, you are spot on about The Paradox of Choice and decision paralysis. Maybe I'm from Venus but I haven't heard of this before, particularly in regards to relationships. This stood out to me because it was the most notably applicable to my love life.
I am so incredibly indecisive about food, for example, that I've intentionally gone without because I couldn't decide. (First world problem, surely.) But, alas, when I know what I want, I will scream it from the rooftops, seek it out with great determination, and take my time enjoying it. Same applies here.

Anyway, thank you for this wonderful piece of writing Miss @AmandaYVR.

[JSmuve]

I just want to reply to this part that you wrote:

"However, it is my assumption (we all know what happens when we assume), that "I don't know" is selected because they either don't want to be forward about wanting something casual OR that they feel like selecting "relationship" means the woman assumes they want a relationship immediately after matching. OR he literally has no idea what he wants and that's a reckless decision to put my heart into."

All of these are possible. Putting "I don't know" is a way of saying that all of those options are possible without pigeonholing yourself into one. It's basically saying, "I don't really have a specific goal but let's meet and see where it goes." That's where you need to ask a guy what he's looking for instead of assuming.

About the messaging part. A lot of guys struggle with this. Many women's profiles are so underdeveloped that lots of guys struggle with coming up with an "original" message that'll get a response. Frustrating, isn't it?

[DarkCarousel]

@JSmuve I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, particularly on the "I don't know" piece. Gives more to ponder. I still think I'd be unlikely to swipe on someone that has that on their bio. If it's blank, maybe. I'm big on respecting time (mine and his).

The messaging part--- you're absolutely right. Very frustrating for all parties when they have to take that initial step with extremely limited knowledge. It's definitely more than okay with me to take that step, now more than ever. The guys have done more than their "fair" share with that.

[Jamie05rhs]

@DarkCarousel I hope you don't mind me responding on a few things that you wrote.

"OR that they feel like selecting "relationship" means the woman assumes they want a relationship immediately after matching.". I have actually worried about this before. Since I've run into so many girls who are scared of relationships.

"So now I'm analyzing their profile, thinking this looks like a great guy but I'm playing roulette by putting my heart out there and possibly developing feelings for someone who doesn't know what he wants.". I disagree with this part. How would you be developing feelings for someone just by writing them a message? That seems a bit premature.

"On many profiles, I see this, "Be interesting. Don't just say 'hey'." OK, so we have a reasonably attractive man, who "doesn't know" what he wants, has very little information in his bio, and he wants me to engage him in "interesting" conversation right out of the gate. This creates a weird predicament of either directly commenting on his looks (which leads him to think I'm only interested in the physical), stating something obscure that may or may not catch his intrigue, OR telling him about myself (which gives him the idea that I just want to talk incessantly about myself)." OMG- THIS IS EXACTLY HOW I FEEL!! 😱

[Jamie05rhs]

*continued...

"Attention (for any human) can feel somewhat lifting (?) but it doesn't hold the same value as when it comes from someone who genuinely cares about your well-being.". I totally totally totally totally agree. Receiving a compliment from my girlfriend would be MUCH more meaningful than receiving the exact same compliment from any other random person.

And check out my own comment for what I wrote about the Paradox of Choice.

[DarkCarousel]

@Jamie05rhs I don't mind at all. Thank you for writing about your experience. I'll comment specifically on this section since we had differing viewpoints:

"So now I'm analyzing their profile, thinking this looks like a great guy but I'm playing roulette by putting my heart out there and possibly developing feelings for someone who doesn't know what he wants."
"I disagree with this part. How would you be developing feelings for someone just by writing them a message? That seems a bit premature."

Time is valuable to me so maybe 'feelings' isn't the right word. Small, minor investments of time that lead to the development of feelings. I don't know about you but I get excited at the idea of connecting with someone special, even in the early stages. Ok, we matched. Step 1, check. Then (because it's Bumble), I work up something interesting to open with because I want him to know that I'm interested in him. Step 2, check. And then the rush of excitement when I get an alert that he responded! *Stay calm, Self.* (And yes, I still get excited because the potential of what could come from this is important to me.)
So no, I'm not going to develop feelings just from sending someone a message. But my little investments of time are important and I don't want to waste time and hope on getting a guy that doesn't know what he wants.

[Jamie05rhs]

"Time is valuable to me so maybe 'feelings' isn't the right word. Small, minor investments of time that lead to the development of feelings. I don't know about you but I get excited at the idea of connecting with someone special, even in the early stages.". Yes, I get that time is valuable. But it's just dating! You haven't even met the person yet. I honestly think you females overthink things way way way too much!
And yes, I know it can be exciting. But just curb your enthusiasm until you actually get to the serious part.
For me, personally, I'm 34 now, so I'm way too old and way too cynical to get my hopes up about someone I haven't even met yet.

"I don't want to waste time and hope on getting a guy that doesn't know what he wants.". Again, you're overthinking things. Just go with the flow.

[DarkCarousel]

I'm not going to intentionally quell my zest for life, in any capacity.
I don't care to curb my enthusiasm. Even if it is "just ______."

[Jamie05rhs]

Okay. Lol.
But I intentionally do it, and I do so for my own sanity. I can't take the emotional rollercoaster. I just can't! It's too painful.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Points are fine up to a point, but we already understand all this.

The problem here is pretty much just your presentation of this idea as some widespread myth. I don't agree that's the case at all. I think we understand these ideas and would instead file it broadly under something like "The nonsense of women and dating culture". It's not that we didn't understand those ideas, it's that they are problems within themselves.

For example. Let's look at the first point.
"She Didn't Know Your Interest Was Romantic"
That's a female framing of the issue but let's roll with it. The problem there is her need to box it into one or the other and then also the outrage of assuming incorrectly.

I've been in the process of slowly trying to get to know a fellow student over a couple months -- looking to ease into transitioning into something more with her, whatever that may be. But one day she shares with me that she's pissed at another friend I've never met, who is in another class, who after knowing her for a couple months had asked her out. Then she's venting this complaint to me -- another guy doing basically the same thing. She's mad and feels "betrayed" at the idea that a guy would do this. Now for me and I think most guys, we look at that and see that reaction as absurd. Even being ignorant of the situation, that seems like an unreasonable response, and more importantly would have been avoided by not putting guys in boxes in the first place. That categorization itself is part of her psychology. You've presented it as an external reality, hence why I say it's female framing. So ultimately it's the creation of these *discreet* categories itself and her reaction to her own framing which begets the problem, not just a communication error.

That said, a guy can be mindful of stereotypical female thinking and try to act as needed to allow her to navigate her own psyche. So yes, I can understand and believe she knows what she wants, but it's packaged and framed through her perspective, and so it becomes necessary for me to define my course action through her perspective -- in contrast to purely external reality or what I think and feel.

[AmandaYVR]

First, that girl is nuts. I told my husband about it and we both shook our heads and simply can't comprehend her thinking. "I can't spend any time thinking about this person. She's broken, and I would walk away that second" he said. So would I.

Second, I'm impressed with what you have written here. I think this shows a deep and layered understanding. And I think you're probably correct here. And it's a bit sad.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Thanks.

It’s not really relevant to my point, but I’ll clarify that I meant I’ve been in that situation before – as in some time ago. It actually happened 3 years ago, although the wording made it sound present.

It’s interesting that you say she’s nuts, because it stands out to me as a memory because it seemed so textbook. I had heard a lot of friendzoning scenarios many times just like this. They’ve been commonplace on GaG forever. But here was an example of it unfolding exactly as described a hundred times before. So, my reaction was not that she’s nuts, but rather it’s just a common (albeit not good) thing women do, seemly ingrained in their nature/psyche -- not all, but not rare either.

So it’s tough to navigate. And I wonder, and I’m sure other guys do to, how we should feel about that stuff, especially when stacked with similar considerations of the other things in your list. I don’t want to say they’re “nuts”, if for no other reason than I expect women will spit venom at me -- I don’t want it to be some irreconcilable inescapable position -- but I do find myself deficient in respect for women with these behaviors, given the position we endure. I wonder if there’s some equivalent or symmetric aspect in men which could motivate compromise. Doesn’t feel like it. Feel like I’m forced to take my time excessively, walk on eggshells, and jump through hoops with no reciprocation of effort to make things happen. Dating became a chore, and then we were derided for not liking our chores.

[ChiTown33]

Very well written. Very well thought out and unfortunately so very wrong on many points. As I've told you before Amanda you may be old and think that you understand guys for that reason. But it just means you understand the guys you know. We're all different. But let's go through your list and see what you got right.
1. She didn't know your interest was romantic. I love this one because virtually any guy with ANY experience with women at all KNOWS that's horses***. This is a woman's domain all the way when you develop feelings for a woman you've walked into her lair. Odds are she sniffed it out before you did.
2. She's trying to assess are you after a relationship or a hookup. Now this one you're right on. It boggles my mind how women cannot be so sharp at knowing a guys has interest. But can never figure something as simple as whether he's a fake.
3. Still collecting data. I'll call this a draw because he said she said but honestly when a woman is being indecisive it generally means she's playing you.
4. It's a numbers game and she knows it. I'm not sure what you're talking about here. It is for both genders. But I notice you did take a little time to taunt men with the futility of online dating. It's not futile. Not if you know what your trying to accomplish.
5. Attention is an ego boost. Yes but we've already established women can't discern real from fake. It's generally why your gender makes so many bad choices.
6. You're right on maybe not fully with your reasoning but you arrive at the right conclusion
7. This one made me laugh because you're dead on. And once again maybe you'll admit to it now because you're old. But I bet you did this all the time when you were younger.
8. Sorry 8 once again shows how little you know about guys. It's real simple of the 3 I'd choose the one that chooses me. It's not brain surgery because at the end of the day a guy wants a woman who gets him. A friend not a combatant.
10. You're half right. But it's not because she doesn't want to hurt you (maybe some women). But it's because she doesn't want to reject you. Unless you're an a**hole nobody enjoys doing that man or woman. So women say things indirectly that way they don't have to be the bad guy. Same as when a woman isn't physically attracted to you instead of telling you "you're ugly" she says " I don't care for your personality". See once again it absolved them of any responsibility because they didn't say anything. I think guys should actually adopt this philosophy that way unless people are truly interested no one is ever really saying anything lol.
11. We'll agree to disagree because while I disagree with some of what you wrote I think this subject is too person specific. I've known women that live to argue. Some are right here on g@g
12. N/A
13. Right out of the gates you say " she knows what she wants". But you should have continued "at any given time". Because it's down right comical for you to suggest that women want the same thing at every stage of life. If that were true boy bands would rule the world.
The simple truth is women start off as silly girls. Then become foolish young women. Somewhere in life ( hopefully) they discover what's important. You just hope the haven't had multiple kids by multiple fathers by then.
14. Hypergamy you know i'm not going to agree or disagree I just wish women would make up their minds do they want equality or not? You don't just get the good parts. That's not the way it works. I mean I get in an evolutionary sense men have a gender role as a provider and whatnot but c'mon you can't expect a man to compete with you in the workplace then hold it against him when you took some of his livelihood away.
15. Yes people change but that's why time together is so very important for couples both young and old. People aren't stagnant they change. And if they don't stay close and change together they will grow apart.

[oldasIfeel22]

You got some good points and I need to read this twice.

But about point #1

In my experience woman only care about understanding men they are interested in and don’t care about significant impact (often detrimental) they can have on men they are not attracted to.

This is simply because rejected men are being told to act stoic/nonchalant when a girl turns them down. We have to act like we don’t care and unfortunately women conveniently take reaction as surface poor OR if he does get emotional (angry, sad) they think is mindset is feminine. He is even less attractive now.

Anyway you need to really dig deeper on why most men are insulted by the “friendzone”.

The real reason is not just because we lose out on intimacy/sex. That sucks but men are used to rejection and mature men know attraction isn’t a choice. But respect is a choice.

The assumed friendzone is just flat out disrespectful. Virtually no hetero man in dating range is going to specifically seek out women for just platonic friends. If he asks you to get coffee than most likely he’s interested. He may be feeling you out or it could be a huge crush. Either way female intuition is very sharp. Women are good at picking up details in his body language and voice pitch. 99% of the time you know. But if you are NOT interested in him then you do mental gymnastics by ignoring that just so you can “play dumb” and have plausible deniability. And it’s BULLSHIT.

Men want their masculinity respected and want to feel “alpha” even when they are not. By being respectfully honest that you are not interested (early) shows you respect him a man. He won’t thank you but he will be thankful.

Understanding the “friendship” perspective from a male POV is something most women should put more effort into but they don’t because they don’t have to.

[AmandaYVR]

Thanks for your comments. Good points.

Yep, I already did.
Guys, how do you feel about 'the friendzone', or being left in purgatory, wondering how the girl feels about you, or if she'll ever return feelings? ↗

"Virtually no hetero man in dating range is going to specifically seek out women for just platonic friends. If he asks you to get coffee than most likely he’s interested."
Yes, of course, on dating apps. But I was trying to cover a broader spectrum of scenarios here, not just dating apps, as those are clear.

I don't believe in 'alphas' (I may write a mytake debunking that; I have a lot of notes of topics I may tackle), but I do completely agree with you about respect, and wasting someone's time. I'm right there with you.
"He won’t thank you but he will be thankful." Nicely said.

Also:
Of your past romantic relationships, did they start out as friends? ↗
Finish this sentence: I'm in a friends with benefits and I? ↗

[virtue2332]

From this guys perspective I think we don't know what we want is because what we want changes and evolves and grows as we do. Things that I wanted early on aren't as important today as they were then. What everyone dhoid want and need is someone that is capable of growing and adapting to the ever changing needs of the relationship. For me that's only possible through effective communication and understanding that when someone expresses something new or different it isn't saying that you are not enough so it shouldn't be a negative. It's similar to an appetite for food. If we are favorite food is pizza and we get pizza everyday at some point we may want to try a steak. It doesn't mean that the pizza isn't as good as it was it is but we want to experience something new. For those who are thinking I'm talking about cheating and trying something new that's not what I mean. So I'll rephrase it add some olives to the pizza or some extra cheese. Go crazy if you want and invite some sexy bread sticks to join you toss a salad if you have to but stand by your pizza😳🙄😏🤫

[Smoothing]

Great analysis and my take. You have number 7 so spot on. Unfortunately, number 7 more often than not, lands girls,( I am not saying women because mature women tend not to play games.) with the wrong guy. The guys that will hit it and quit it, or may try and be with her in a relationship, but down the line can't handle the reality of a relationship.

Not to mention, most girls that tend to love the chase more than the relationship itself, love to do exactly number 7.

But all in all, I really love your analysis ♥ well said.

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you very much, Smoothing. I appreciate it. 🙏
I don't even remember every article I've written. I read through this again and chuckled.

I came across this short article yesterday. Women like this are manipulative and I don't like to feature them, but since this applies directly to what you said, I'll link it.
nypost.com/.../

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

"You didn't want to proclaim your interest too directly because 1. You were protecting yourself and didn't exactly want to get hurt either, or 2. You didn't know what it/she was yet, or could be, or 3. You thought it might scare her away. But "Hey, want to grab a cup of coffee sometime?" is less than clear. It's good, in that it doesn't put pressure on her, but it also leaves the interpretation very wide open."

Very true. When I was at school I'd always be overly coy and try to subtly imply how I felt while holding on to the "we're just hanging out" guise.

At a certain point I decided to change that pattern. So I made a rule, that if I want a girl to go on a date with me, I'd invite her "on a date". If I fancied a girl, I'd say "I fancy you". It meant more girls turning down offers, but the girls who said yes were more open to things going to a romantic place, sometimes on the first date.

[AmandaYVR]

Makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for sharing.

[Jamie05rhs]

#3. How does she expect to collect these data points? If she doesn't talk to me, she'll never get the answers she is seeking.

#4. I actually don't swipe right on every girl. I only swipe right on the ones I like (and that's a very small percentage.). But someone who DID swipe right on everyone they saw would get more matches. That's just a statistical fact. So they have the advantage.
Strategy-wise, there really is no incentive to swipe less.

#6. "those don't translate into an actual relationship.". Well, if she wants a relationship, she can have one. Her destiny is entirely in her own hands.

#7. Good luck with that! (See #8. I have too many options already. I'm drowning in them.)
(And hey- if a guy like me has options, just image how many options a man has who is a better prospect than me! And there are plenty of those men out there. This is something I think that women just don't fully grasp.)

[AmandaYVR]

Yeah she won't collect if she's already bogged down by the others - Expectations, Thinks she's going to be used, She was just one of many and assumes guys are not selective. None of which is true in your case, so they are definitely shooting themselves in the foot, so to speak, by casting people out, or ignoring them.

That's good, I'm glad you don't swipe right on every girl.
The guys who do that don't have much of an advantage though, when the net is that less girls end up responding overall. They think they are beating out other guys, which they somewhat are, but it creates a worse environment and less engagement in totality. It's the short view vs. the long view.
I was reminded that you can't swipe yes indefinitely. There is a max now. So that's good.
I read that you deleted the app anyway.

[Jamie05rhs]

"None of which is true in your case". Thanks! I appreciate that! 😊

"but it creates a worse environment and less engagement in totality". I know. I agree.

"I was reminded that you can't swipe yes indefinitely. There is a max now. So that's good.
I read that you deleted the app anyway.". That's correct. For now lol. Maybe I'll delete Burger King if I change my mind and want to download it again. (But that's not very likely, because I really like Burger King.)
(Canadian company, by the way. [Hat tip])

[Jamie05rhs]

Did you have any comments on my other points?

[AmandaYVR]

Nope

[Jamie05rhs]

Cool; no problem.

[genericname85]

guess what. men have the exact same issues. and then women always say "he doesn't know what he wants" or "he just used me to fuck", when neither of that was ture. it's just an easy way to avoid feeling compassion for a person that didn't work out for you.

almost as if you're trying to make yourself hate them so that you can feel better about things not working out... cause that puts all the blame on them and none on yourself...

[AmandaYVR]

Exactly! No argument there at all.

Well I read more blues on here saying this. But you're right, it does apply to both.
I just feel like girls say, "Guys just won't commit" which is often true, and because they, historically, have cheated more often, and when a guy ends it with one girl, he's more likely to soon sleep with another. And possibly another. Which makes the girl conclude "he doesn't know what he wants" and "he just used me to fuck."

There is also a significant deflection of self-blame, and accountability, going on with all this, as you say.

But the additional layer of complication (and truth) is that guys will sleep with more people, yet that doesn't necessarily mean that they are not ALSO looking for someone to commit to. I think this is a distinction that many young women do not understand. Sex can be meaningful, or meaning very little, to guys. They are looking for 'the one' but want more to satisfy their base needs, with whatever comes along, in the mean time.

Here are some polls which relate.
If you are/were looking, would you prefer an actual relationship, or a casual hookup? ↗
What level of commitment are you seeking in a relationship? ↗
Guys (single men): what do you want: a relationship, hookups, or nothing right now? ↗
Do you prefer short term or long term relationships? ↗

[genericname85]

well yes guys won't commit. cause how do you know who you wanna commit to? by checking out a few and see what you feel best with. you can't just straight up commit to whomever comes first. i mean "knowing what you want" has to be learned by trial and error. nobody is born with that.

[genericname85]

for women it's harder to find commitment than sex. for men it's harder to find sex than commitment, which has to do with reproductive cycles and evolutionary biology. snowflakes these days are using lots of bullshit pseudoscience to claim this isn't true but well... we are just those dumb animals with limited knowledge that rely on finding things out by making mistakes... it can't be avoided.

[genericname85]

and if some guy just fucked you and called it quits, that doesn't mean all they wanted is to fuck you xD i mean yes that can also happen but it's unfair to assume that as the default.

[AmandaYVR]

The different styles are how many people do people date simultaneously, while they are finding out if, and who, they want to commit to. And how long that exploratory process lasts.

Are you saying the sex was bad, or dispassionate, or the chemistry was off?
It's definitely not what girls/women think - they may doubt themselves and their skill and their body, a lot, but the thinking is some sex is better than no sex. You disagree?

[genericname85]

i guess menn use that approach that: why invest emotionally before you know that the sex part can work? because if you think long term, sexual frustration ruins every relationship. you need to be sexually compatible to your partner and isn't it a waste of time and effort, if you invest all those resource into finding someone that is emotionally compatible when you could have found out in one night of sex, that you will never have worked out anyway? XD

[AmandaYVR]

Ok.
So you're not a believer that sex can be improved much, eh?
For instance, if a girl was very insecure, or inexperienced, or nervous because she really wanted the guy to love her eventually, maybe she'd freeze up or something? (I don't know, cause this is not me at all, but I'm just guessing here, from a man's experience.) But in that case he could eventually make her feel at ease.
Or if it was a question of being too passive, 'starfish sex', he can express to her that that ain't goona' cut it, in the long run.
I'm not sure what sex incompatibility is unfixable. You don't really find out sex drive and frequency until later. And even then, it can change.
Basically what you're saying is you want to test the merchandise. And I get that. I'm also a believer in that, and moving in together before you get married (if marriage is on the table.)
Either there's scenarios I haven't thought of, or men don't necessarily give a girl enough time to improve the connection, or compromise to appease the dissimilar preferences.

[genericname85]

of course sex can be "improved". but surely you must know that sexual incompatibility is a thing. that's the typical female mindset when they date. they think about stuff in terms of "long term fixing it so they can live with it". that typically leads to break up after many years, when they can't anylonger live the delusion that they're gonna fix it and they had to reach the conclusion that their partner won't change.

men take the approach to get with someone that they could already live with, if they would stay as they are forever.

[genericname85]

you know "making a thing work slightly better" is a totally different project than "making a thing work that does not work at all at that point.

[Kas19]

"Girls don't know what they want in relationships" Mm no babe, they just don't want you.

This was well said. It's funny watching people trip over what they think women want/need. Especially men with God complexes, for reasons I'm unsure of since they're about as plain and uninteresting as they come.

[BatmanofGotham]

I'd agree with that. Mostly.

Though it implies that "girls" know exactly what they want. Yet are extremely hesitant to actually define what they want. If you can't describe it, you don't know what it is.

[Kas19]

Can't say I agree with that but I understand your perspective. Never had those issues.

[BatmanofGotham]

I see. So what is it you want in a relationship?

[Kas19]

Many things. Generally don't feel like typing it out. In short, a best friend that I can trust and go through the motions of the shit we call life.

[BatmanofGotham]

That sounds pretty sweet. I'm sure youl find it one day. So long and good luck ✌️

[HugoThe2nd]

There definitely are short answers, drop the flaky and indecisive women and simply go for the ones who are direct in both expressing their interest as well as their lack of it, because there are plenty of those out there.

[AmandaYVR]

Fair enough 👍.

[Diaforos22]

Curious, when would you ideally want to know if she is interested? When I was younger I'd always be direct about it and would either drop a guy after a couple dates or jump straight into an infatuated phase that led to serious dating within 2 months time. Now I take my time though and I don't think guys should expect me to know if I want more or not after just 3-4 dates

[HugoThe2nd]

@Diaforos22
Honestly? I want them to express their interest in me by having steamy, exposing, no-holds-bared sex with me on the first date.
I gauge the intensity of a woman's interest in me by how fast it escalates, and I believe many, if not most, men do so too.

This is because that is precisely how attraction works for us men, it's what we understand.
Indeed, I could deem a woman the most special I've ever met after her first 20 sentences she directs at me.
Mind you, this is not to say that men simply get infatuated over anything - I could go for years having women attempting to get this kind of response out of me to no avail.

That's the part not discussed in Amanda's take - the whole reason men feel resentment over this issue and why they project their assumptions at women or accuse them of their justifications being mere excuses is the fact that men, when they do become attracted, they become attracted FAST.

This difference in the way men's attraction works and the lack of ability to emphasize with how women's attraction develops, is what causes this rift.

The average man is probably going to feel like they have been lead on if you just go and say "I'm sorry, but there is no interest on my part" after the fourth date.
Because the average man, he simply CAN'T emphasize with that, he would never go on a second date with you if he didn't feel attracted to you after the first one.

He will be thinking you are there on a fourth date with him because you are just as into him as he is into you, and then he will feel hurt and may potentially lash out once he finds out that this isn't the case.

[HugoThe2nd]

I've been hurt by someone who pretty much told me that the reason we are always hanging out with friends (after 2 months of having explicitly expressed mutual interest) is because they don't trust me enough to meet me privately.

It hurt me a lot, I felt like absolute crap, because they have already been a quite special person to me, and I couldn't fathom what on earth is there so threatening about my behavior that it would warrant such a sentiment from them.
It takes a lot of willpower for someone who can't intrinsically emphasize with whatsoever this to take a breather and accept that people can work very differently.

I've had enough experience by that point to accept that it is just how these things go, but many guys with less experience may not be able to do that, and that is why they will lash out and go on about rants that Amanda is responding to via this take.
A man's attraction doesn't really develop the way a woman's does, we click and we unclick.

I guess if you are the type who takes a while to decide, just be honest about it.
Tell them "I'm attracted to you but I'm not ready to make the call because there are many areas of potential incompatibility that may yet present themselves".

The guy is going to appreciate your honesty, and he is not going to have expectations he shouldn't have.
And odds are, he is going to be perfectly fine with you taking your time to decide.

It's the shock value of conflicting points of view that bends guys out of shape, not the conflicting views by themselves.

[Diaforos22]

Honestly this is the first time I've come across a guy who thinks like this. I've been fortunate to usually meet with like-minded men who think sex shouldn't happen until something deeper forms. My ex who I parted ways with amicably would be absolutely offended if a woman offered sex early. And he even states on his online dating profiles that he won't talk to you if you are sexual without getting to know me for at least a few weeks to build friendship

[Diaforos22]

Oh I just noticed your second reply. Yes that is what I've been doing. So hehe brownie points to me. I tell people I need to get to know them before I decide. When I was younger I used to look for an instant spark and chemistry but it fades over time and similarly a fiery spark can truly blossom over time. I think it's important to build a friendship without sex since eventually there will come a time where that fiery, sexy romance will start to fade and when it does, having that deeper friendship will keep you guys together. I believe this because I've not only read of it, I've seen it for myself in couples who stayed together for 30+ years happily. Talking to them really made it clear that I needed to stop focusing on how good the chemistry feels because that doesn't mean anything except strong psychological + physical lust. Don't get me wrong, I'm not settling but I want to take my time to see if there is more than just feelings there. Something that can build a good foundation for long term relationship. Dunno if that made sense... Going to work as I speak

[HugoThe2nd]

Right, that's a big difference in views.
I honestly can't imagine being with someone for 30 years, I've barely liked anyone romantically, much less wanted anything serious and long-term, not out of avoidance, but because I've frankly just never had a genuine desire for it.
Pretty much all of my relations were very casual, so perhaps lust is really the only thing I'm familiar with and can respond to.
For me the idea of having something deeper is only a curiosity, something that I'm not sure I'm even able to meet the emotional requirements for or ultimately derive satisfaction from.

But knowing that, I would never waste the time or try to string along someone with your views.
So the sooner they let me know where they stand and what they expect, the better for both of us.

It remains that transparency and openness are important things.
It will prevent any misunderstanding, and I don't think any sensible adult will mind even if you bring it up right away (first date) that you like to take your time getting to know them because you are looking for something solid.

Those who are on the same page with you will appreciate it, people like me will be able to get out of your way and the only ones who may act defensively are probably the ones who wanted to string you along for as much as they could before you bring up the serious stuff.

[spearheadbt]

Putting all guys and all girls in the same boat is a bit stupid anyway. I mean, sure, men and women are different, but there's still a lot of variability, we are all individuals after all. Too often you hear butthurt guys going like: oh, all girls are the same, blah blah blah with their hurt ego. Girls will do it too. It's convenient and it nicely fits your narrative and it makes you feel better about yourself. Some people just don't want to hear that others might not like them, or not enough, or not like what you are doing. Too many people feel entitled to a relationship, or to a relationship with a particular person. Or they want things to always go their way.

[Beautyforeverybody]

Well I know what I want pretty well and so do most girls. Personally what I want is;
1- Don’t pass time with me. If I’m dating you, I am in it for the end goal of marriage.
2- BE LOYAL
3- Be able to provide for me and your future family.
4- Have career goals and aspirations
5- Make me feel desired
6- Show care and put efford in the relationship

[msbrightness]

All true,

The social constructs that force those less relational to behave... largely idiotically - are something girls consider and genuinely deal with, while males (contrary to their own needs) are taught to be ignorant (and at times aggressive so bullying can win as a method of human interactions).
Many males are not that ignorant, luckily (it could be that those who are - are in fact - transgender females/born as girls but operated into being male, and playing ignorant in their best effort to simulate masculinity. True masculinity is much more gentle than that transgender exaggeration of it)

[A_Bell]

Woman don't want anything, individuals do. Don't look at a woman as the singular of women but as her own entity.

Show interest and if she doesn't show it back, move on. If she treats you poorly, move on. If she doesn't respect you, move on.

You'll be happier, she'll be happier.

[zeitgeist057]

Fantastic my take Amanda, thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed and thoughtful piece.

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you so much, zeitgeist. 💛

(I actually didn't think it was any good. I almost didn't post and scrapped it. I'm still processing... Sometimes I think I get lost in the concept and lose sight of what's worth talking about, after spending hours writing something.)

[zeitgeist057]

You touch on a lot of points and perspectives, any of which could be expounded upon or tangent off onto other observations. That’s the nature of the beast. One thing I see in a more big picture way is that despite all these options” and the hype of the narcissistic SMV as you put it, or the “I’m the prize” mentality, is that ultimately these women are generally not happy or satisfied with the outcomes their tactics produce.

Which leads us back to this simplified premise “women don’t know what they want”. (What they seek doesn’t bring happiness) But neither do men. this is the paradox of following our simple instincts, seeking dopamine feedback but ultimately leading us to dissatisfaction.

[hi_it_is_me123]

Men: i want to provide
Women: ok provide me
Men: You are a fucking Golddigger
Women: ok i can work too, make a caarer and share the bills then
Men: You are feminazi now

In conclusion men dont know what they want in a relationship

[hi_it_is_me123]

This is anecdotal and should not be generalized of course. I am talking about my experience with men online on gag and real life. I am just summing up their opinions/mindset

[hi_it_is_me123]

When i say i am ok with sharing bills, going dutch when dating and working outside, i get told i am feminist who dont want to be a housewife or i dont know what men want. I also se how my female friends get called golddiggers when they want to be provided and be housewife etc. So this is my experience

[MannMitAntworten]

Just my sentiments, but I feel you trivialized your own sex. I agree to some degree for some XX under perhaps 22 upward to 25 fo some. However, largely I disagree with the rational for women 25 onward. Data point 16 does hold water. Though, this is not unique to women but for men and woman in general.

[AmandaYVR]

"Trivialized"? Ouch. That doesn't feel great to hear. But okay, I'll take it (and really consider it.) I do admit, this was not my best work.
In my defence, I did write it about exactly that age group. Or, up to just before late 20s. My original concept included the word "women" in the concept and title, but as I was writing it, shaping it, I decided that this was going to be focused more on 'girls', and the more youthful decision-making process, and doubt that accompanies inexperience.
Women - adults, fully-fledged, late 20s and beyond (as well as men of the same age) know much more. At least, they used to. Rumour is that growth and maturity are delayed today, and I have seen much evidence of that as well.
Women (just as men of the same age) may carry more "baggage" and less of the innocence and ignorance and enthusiasm of youth, but they play fewer games, know more what they want (notice I said "more"), and are generally more communicative and straightforward to deal with. (I have been told this many times. And I experienced the inverse of this with men, myself, when I was younger. I mostly dated older.)
And yes, I meant for "16" to apply to all.

[Chthou95]

Number 10 & 11. It's frustrating and really annoying that a lot of women expect guys to take a hint or don't want to be straight up. But they want men to be straight forward and not beat around the bush. And then if a guy calls a girl out on something, she will do what she has to do to avoid conflict. I have a hard time trusting women & believing what they say

[loves2learn]

You have to call it out nicely. We are sensitive creatures.

[Chthou95]

@loves2learn From my experiences, it's worse to be nice about it

[loves2learn]

Hmmmm. I require sensitivity. I truly despise conflict.

[Chthou95]

@loves2learn I just do the opposite of what girls tell me at this point lol

[loves2learn]

@Chthou95 good luck with that sir

[Chthou95]

@loves2learn It's been working in my favor so ill continue to do that. Thank you 👋

[loves2learn]

Mkay, @Chthou95 I wish you the best and I mean that sincerely. :)

[Anpu23]

Thanks for writing this. Hopefully it'll help some guys to understand what is going on.