I said women be leaders if they're not good at taking accountability?

[chris_987]

Good leader can admit when they're wrong but I was thinking about how a lot of girls blame other people constantly.

[8UniquelyBoring8]

I understand that it is important to take personal responsibility for our actions and reactions. Constantly blaming others for our mistakes and shortcomings can hinder personal growth and development. It is important to acknowledge when we have made a mistake and take steps towards correcting it, rather than blaming others. Additionally, it is important to address any underlying issues that may be causing us to constantly blame others and work towards resolving them.

[chris_987]

Do you know the term "man up"? What's the equivalent term for women?

[8UniquelyBoring8]

Yes, I'm familiar with the term "man up", which is often used to encourage men to be strong, tough, and take charge.

An equivalent term for women would be "woman up" or "be a strong woman" or "be a boss woman". However, it's worth noting that expressions like these can be limiting and reinforce gender stereotypes. It's important to acknowledge and respect the unique strengths and qualities of all individuals, regardless of their gender.

[msmissydc]

isn't that the same as every politician ever? Also the same with guys. Its not a gender specific problem.

[chris_987]

I'll give you some examples.
We have a movement called fat acceptance. Think about that instead of just saying I'm fat. I need to lose weight. Women have decided it's the people that are wrong and they need to love a woman no matter what size she is.
We can even go into the LGBT space. Women have said there's no such difference between men and women and now men want to identify as women and go into their bathrooms. But till this day I've never heard a woman say they were wrong for saying men and women were the same which is where this whole thing started.
The list is endless for women not taking accountability for their beliefs and I didn't even touch on abortion.

That's in Stark contrast to men. We have to take accountability because we don't grow if we don't. And a man that doesn't grow. Doesn't get anything out of society.

[msmissydc]

Wow calling some extremely specific people as a means to generalize the masses. Yes if I go that route I could call out incels for example.
Most lgbtq people dont say there is no difference between the sexes they say that sex is not the same as gender.
Abortion is something I would use as an example for men not accepting accountability. Literally taking away women rights, something only a small percentage of women agree on but was decided without women being even involved as a deciding factor. What about taking accountability there? What about gender pay gap? People call it a myth instead of doing something about it. Science literally proves the pay gap but thats not what is accepted because they dont want to be hold ccountable.
What about the much smaller acceptance from Lgbtq people from men compared to women. Want to be accountable for that?

[msmissydc]

But in the end this is all whataboutism. We could just say some problems are more on one side and others are more on the other sides. But as I said this has nothing to do with gender its on all sides but please dont tell me men are better in that case they are clearly not.

[chris_987]

Okay, you're all over the place. Let's stick to one topic at a time.
What is sex and what is gender and how does that relate to only men wanting to go into the women's bathroom and not the other way around?

[msmissydc]

Sex is what is biological different between males and females and those between. Gender is a social construct of personal perceived stereotypes to fit into.
The most accepted forms are men and women but there are much more. If you can't fit into one, a lot of people at least try to make themselves fit into the one they feel closest to and more important feel they belong to.
How it does related to only men wanting into womens bathrooms and not the other way around is simple, thats not the case. Its a false statement.

[chris_987]

Can a social construct overcome a biological difference?
I'm basically asking ultimately, what's more important the biology or the sociology of gender and sex.

[msmissydc]

It can and it has. Why is one more important than the other? They can coexist.
Everything society has build was first a social construct: marriage, politics, wars as well as wellfare. Without social constructs and also changing them over time we would still be highly evolved apes living in colonies. Survival of the fittest in a more literal scenario.

[msmissydc]

Biology and society can live hand in hand but it doesn't mean one can't be ahead of the other, or that they must always perfectly fit together.

[chris_987]

I would say that biology is more important than social constructs because biology informed social construct.
That's why I said women don't transition into men and fight for the right to go into men's bathrooms or fight for the right to go to men's jails. But men who transition into women go to women's jails and rape women. So that means that no matter what your socialized to believe, biology will always inform the social construct.

So now imagine if you were a leader. And believing the things you do was leading to women getting raped and beaten. Would you think about your ideology and say maybe I was wrong because I'm causing so much suffering. Or would you double down?

But I think we 've been in that topic today. We can move on to the gender pay gap now.

[msmissydc]

First: its just not true that only Men transition. Thats far from reality. Also transwomen are not more prone to rape women than men are. So we were originally talking about taking responsibility. What about that now? You literally blame lgbtq which you say are mostly women (maybe more but not mostly) for what you say men are doing.
Fine lets move to gender gender pay gap.

[chris_987]

Ok so do you believe that men and women are capable of exerting the same amount of effort in a physically intense job? We're not talking about pregnancy or taking time off. Just literally a physically intense job that's mentally challenging. Also, do you think that men and women exert the same amount of effort overall?

[msmissydc]

Effort yes. I can see men that men are on average physically stronger but that doesn't translate to effort directly.
Yes I believe men and women exert the same amount of effort if put under the same situations.

[chris_987]

Okay, I'll give you a good example. When I worked at Walmart in my early 20s within a couple of months I got a raise over older women who had families to look after that were there for 20 plus years and was making more than them within 2 weeks simply because I did the training and put in more effort than they did. Does that mean that there's a wage gap or is there an effort gap?

[msmissydc]

So your one example is able to apply everywhere? Comparing someone who just got to a job and wants to rise to someone who is in this job for over 20years without wanting to change. Yes this seems like an effort gap. But its not that this situation is the norm. I am sure you can find situations exactly the opposite. Also you just got the job maybe these women where the same as you 20 years ago and didn't get the raise so they put low effort because it seemed senseless for them? I am not saying that is the case but it could be than it would be a pay gap that turned into an effort gap. Of course if you are working in the same job for a long time without success you try to minimize your effort.

[chris_987]

No where Taking each example one at a time. So don't jumped the gun.
I obviously didn't stay at Walmart or take the pay raise I was only there to pay for my truck license.

So my next example in effort is the NBA vs the WNBA, call Wayne. The NBA first started people were making an average salary of around 25,000 a year. And then in the '80s when Michael Jordan started playing he was getting paid $75,000 a year as a starter. And at that time the NBA was bringing in millions to watch the games. As he started to rise and bring in more people to watch, he got a million deal from Nike one of the first people to get such a high deal. So because of his value, the NBA decided to up his contract to millions of dollars per year.

The NBA was making so much money that they decided to start a women's league known as the WNBA in 1997.
And just like when the NBA first started they paid according to how much viewership they were getting which is roughly 30 to 50,000 a year.
But since the WNBA started, nobody watches it as much as the NBA. In fact, they lose money each year and end in the red.

But women consider this a pay gap, Even though they don't make enough money to justify paying them the millions of dollars that the man make.

So would you also consider this a pay gap or is it an effort gap?

[msmissydc]

This is neither. Its a thing in society that there are more guys interested in watching sport than women. This has nothing to do with effort gap. As long as sport is more for entertainment than for the actual sport this is fine but its not an effort gap.
Where did I jump the gun? It was YOUR example.
You really take the weirdest examples here. What about the actual majority. Mid class working women?

[chris_987]

I'm trying to establish structure. Because conversations like this don't benefit from jumping all over the place. And I just want to point out those two examples that I gave you would be considered a conservative with those viewpoints because most feminists believe that the WNBA is suffering from a wage gap. But I'm just trying to show you that the wage grab is based on feelings and not actual hard numbers. But we can move on to middle class women

So the middle class is roughly 45k to 80k that covers about upper middle and lower middle class. Over 100 k is considered upper class. I make about 80k so I'm upper middle class.

[chris_987]

But anyways, let's get into the minutia of the middle class women. So you're more likely to become a middle class woman if you stay in nursing for a long time or teaching (by the way, I'm speaking in generalities for now. We can do specifics later) both nursing and teaching are majority female dominant. So a woman who becomes an RN can only compare herself to another woman who is an RN same with a teacher who has tenyer. And if you're intelligent enough, you'll know that most companies don't go by experience or hours worked. They literally get raises because it's built into their contract. So if you're a teacher and you get your masters or PhD, you'll get a raise. If you're a nurse and you go back and do your masters, you'll get a raise. Most jobs are not controlled by one person. It is a conglomerate of people at the top that makes sure the business is running smoothly. So to say that a nurse or a teacher has a wage grab because she's a woman would be stupid. Because feminists want you to believe that there's one man at the top of every company looking at each woman just holding them back because they're a woman. That's not how the majority of companies are set up. You either go in and ask for a raise or you get one automatically if you have a good job. And most middle class people have good jobs with their raises are built into it. Unless you're referring to overtime. But as I said before women the majority of the jobs work with other women. So they're only competition in overtime is themselves. And there would be a gap in pay if one girl does overtime on another one does not. So would you agree that the majority of women don't work with men, They work in female dominated industries?

[msmissydc]

I still dont know where you think I jumped.
You know there are two different versions of the gender pay gap? You talk about them as one, use arguments that only work for one with the other.
Actually not a lot jobs have a pay raise in the contracts. Thats sometimes when you have a union which is again not the majority.
I actually disagree that the majority of women only work with women. Most jobs are mixed jobs. Yes there are fields that are male or female dominated but thats again not the majority and would count into the uncontrolled gender 'pay gap'.
Of course there is a 'pay gap' between two different individuals but that is not at all relevant here. That is exactly the same between men and women.

[chris_987]

You said middle class. Most middle class jobs do not have unions. Lower income jobs have unions.

Do you have any data to support that the majority of jobs are mixed jobs? Because roughly 80 to 90% of industrial jobs make up the majority of the workforce which would be industrial production. That's mostly run by men. Women tend to do office work which is mostly dominated by women. The jobs were the two meet would be high level middle class office jobs like Google or Facebook, which are the minority of the workforce. All you have to do is go to a steel plant or somewhere that's highly industrialized and look inside it's majority men. And how a typical industrial company is structured is all the grunt workers that do all the heavy lifting are men and you have a couple or maybe 10 women in the office area doing pencil pushing whether it's HR or customer service and at the CEO levels would be men.

So again, I think you're just making things up right now and you don't really have any experience to prove what you're saying is true. Cuz the majority of women go to school and choose courses that other women choose, and the majority of men go into trades or end up in jobs where the majority of men are. So what you're saying doesn't even line up with reality

[msmissydc]

The biggest jobs by number are service providing jobs. A lot of these are office jobs. Good producing is just a relatively small number. In the U. S. at least i guess you are from there. I can't see where you aren't making stuff up.

[msmissydc]

Pls take a look at the American bureau of labor statistics they have these in numbers. I can show you EU equivalents too if you want that.

[msmissydc]

Like I said there are fields that are dominated by one gender. But again we only talk about the uncontrolled gender pay gap. Which with your logic shows, that work fields that are dominated by women are more likely to be underpaid. E. G. Education or healthcare.

[chris_987]

So why would education be underpaid? They make six figures after 10 years.

[msmissydc]

That is true for less then the top 25% of people working in education including postsecondary teachers (meaning university).

[chris_987]

So is this where we landed? The gender pay gap exist. Because teachers in College and universities make less than their male counterparts?

Is that your final answer?

[msmissydc]

This is one field. You started with single examples. For me education was one example of many.

[chris_987]

So what are you comparing a teacher's salary to that's drawing you to the conclusion that there is a pay gap?

[msmissydc]

Let me recap that for you: You talked wrong numbers which I corrected you on with a quick research. You also talked how women are mostly going for lower paying jobs. I said some of these fields are underpaid and I gave you two examples. Do you follow?
So its part of the problem. Its by far not a huge part of the problem but it is part of it.
I am so confused you use overly specific examples for your arguments, but when I give you an example, you think that one example is the whole problem instead of part of it?
I tell you again all we are talking about is the uncontrolled gender pay gap. We never touched the controlled gender pay gap. Non of your arguments can even work at all on the controlled gender pay gap.

[chris_987]

No, I don't follow. You said teachers are underpaid. And I want to know what you're comparing their pay to that makes them seem underpaid

It's a simple question

[msmissydc]

I am comparing that to people with similar education and the fact that a lot of their working hours are unpaid, that some even need to use their own income to fund their teaching because schools have low budgets. And I am comparing their raise in wages to other professions.

[chris_987]

So do you think all professions are created equally? Like a computer engineer and a teacher should be paid the same?

[msmissydc]

I think you should be paid what you work for. I do think teachers work harder than a lot of computer engineers though. Obviously not all professions are equal. Some need more skill some need more prior education but I think you should be paid according to your work.

[chris_987]

That's not how capitalism works, do you remember what I said about Michael Jordan and how? When he first joined the NBA he was only making 70,000 a year but because he was so good he was able to make millions. His skills never change but the money that he made did.

The society is not set up to pay people what you feel like they should make. If you want communism where everybody gets paid the same no matter what they do then you should advocate for that but don't come to a capitalist country and say you guys are doing it wrong when you don't plan on moving to a communist country.

[msmissydc]

Communism is something completely different. Being paid according to your work is not communism. Actually even the opposite. But yes capitalism is far from the best system.
I didn't go to a capitalist country and I will not go to a communist country either. My country has nothing to do with communism and is far more capitalistic than everything else. I am just grateful its not yet as extreme capitalistic as other countries.

[chris_987]

So you just want to complain about the country instead of leaving and going to an ideal country where everyone is paid according to there work.

[msmissydc]

No, I want to do something against the problem. I am fine where I live and I rather work on these problems than support letting them get bigger by leaving. Also there aren't that many better countries. Running from problems does not make it better.

[chris_987]

Maybe there aren't that many countries that are better because what you're asking for and never existed in history of ever

[msmissydc]

That tells us exactly nothing. A few hundred years ago democracy was a rare sight. Now its one of the most spread governing forms. A lot of the times society evolves into something better. Often that doesn't work without a few steps back before sadly.

[chris_987]

Who told you that democracy never existed? Weren't the ancient grecians Democratic nations. Same with the Romans. Nations with parliaments is not a recent concept.

[msmissydc]

I never said that. Pls read again. Romans yes the 400 year democracy before the nearly 1500 year empire lead by many emperors.

[chris_987]

So you'd like to live in a monarchy? Or under socialism. I'm not understanding what you're advocating for interns of equality for everyone. Cuz it sounds like you're against a meritocracy.

[msmissydc]

Please quote where I said I am against democracy! Because that shouldn't be possible as I never said that.

[chris_987]

I never said you were against democracy. I said that since you live in a democratic society, how do you decide what teachers should be paid, If our society is based off of merits. Like how valuable you are to society determines how much you make. Why do you think that teachers should be paid more? Most people don't even use the degrees that they go to school for. They earn value outside of what they are taught in school.

So I guess I have two questions for you. What do you think teachers should be paid?

And is a democratic Republic your ideal form of government?

[msmissydc]

I think the ideal government form would be a direct democracy. Especially no republic democracy.
Its quite the opposite. The need for higher education is rising so close to everyone is nearly forced to pursue higher education as long as you are not a special case. So nearly everyone is using their degrees. I dont know comparable numbers in the U. S. But I think every school teacher should be paid like the highest grade teachers are paid atm. Those working for universities should be able to either actually get paid for what they work or should be able to work less so what they earn actually is what they work. Technically they are paid accordingly but only if you disregard unpaid overtime, unpaid research times and the most important part is the nearly unpaid scientific meeting. They do that because it is neccesarry for their job but only their actual teaching time and normal working hours is paid. Which is far less than what they actually do.
Back to school teachers. Some do more and some do less but their pay differences aren't close to the actual working amount and neither their teaching complexity. Important is to increase school funding so teachers actually dont have to pay to teach their stuff from their own money. Than increase the lower pay grades to what they do and not purely how long they have been working.

[msmissydc]

But as you said meritocracy. Another form that would work well would be a technocracy formed upon a direct democracy. Everyone votes directly who should do what part of goverment. Not letting the few powerful decide than on their own.

[chris_987]

You have an actually given me any numbers, you just keep saying they should be paid for what they're worth. Should every teacher expect a six figure income as soon as they enter the job field? And if you think about it, your average teacher that has tenyer gets paid more than me and I'm upper middle class. Plus they have 2 months vacation. I only have 2 weeks.

So to understand what you're saying. Are you saying that an entry level teacher who did early childhood education should expect six figures within the first year of her working? And if that's the case, what incentives does she have to stay for 10 years or to get her master so she can make more money for each other university level?
A meritocracy-based system is incentives for teachers to move up and learn more so that they can earn more, but it sounds like you want the opposite of this.

[chris_987]

And also why should individuals vote on particular parts of the government? Most people aren't informed on any branches of government. There are probably at least 20 different subsections of how a country is run. So I don't think humans who sit down and watch Kardashians all day would have any idea of who the Governor general should be.

[msmissydc]

Numbers: 5.106€ average teacher salary.
Basic programmer: 5077€
One of those doesn't need a bachelor degree often dual-bachelor, has regular working hours, can often work from home and has a less stressfull job.
Also higher entry level salary on average. Also can start directly after finished education and doesn't need a mandatory clerkship before being able to start working. Now add that some teachers need to pay teaching materials from their own income it gets even worse, thats a school funding problem not a salary problem though. (Source: stepstone)

[msmissydc]

Because humans who watch kardashians are probably the same that dont vote anyway. Those that have no idea what the vote is about will not vote more when there are more votes. On the other hand those that are informed and know the issue can bring their input directly instead of needing to vote for a party that may or may not support that issue. There will rarely be a party you can agree with 100% but not voting is worse.
Thats why I said technocracy formed on a more direct democracy. Let us directly vote who is capable to solve an issue.

[chris_987]

So you live in a European nation, which one?

[Anonymous]

And yet I have never seen you admit you were wrong, or that any view that doesn’t line up with yours has any merit.

[chris_987]

Do you have any examples of where I should have admitted that I was wrong?

[sunflower00]

What a massive & wrong generalisation

[chris_987]

Not really, we already discussed why it's true