A Response to "The Case for MGTOW"

[lilaqua]

Look it's tough. We're in a between period where there's a cross-pollination between the old and new models of life. Men have got the hard end of the stick in a lot of ways. It's actually not productive to blame feminism because a large amount of your issues stem from the older way of life.

- divorce court rulings are a result of a time period in which women did not work and had the primary responsibility of raising children. It's outdated but fixable

- false rape charges are difficult because of the nature of the crime, but false rape charges are actually exceedingly rare.

- #METOO is a legitimate movement showing the universality of sexual assault and rape amongst women, It didn't start to claim all men are rapists.

- the Domestic violence shelter thing and jail time does shit me though, I believe this is a legitimate problem but it has roots in a very patriarchal way of thinking

What I don't understand about these points is they are systemic, societal issues, ones that need campaigning and can be fixed through social change. Swearing off women does nothing but make you more bitter, and prone to generalise 50% of the population. If you really cared you'd try to petition, talk with parliamentarians, make charities and groups supporting your cause that could actually do some good. Plus don't act like men don't tie up women in difficult positions in court, not just with divorces but other kinds of legal proceedings.

The single parent families are treated like this epidemic of selfish women and how it should be stopped, but pretty much every case i've heard of, the situation wasn't due to a spiteful woman trying to gain money but due to the incompetence of one of the parties. I've heard of, the partner dying, the partner being an addict, the partner being abusive, the partner leaving for another family, the partner being arrested. These are not the parent's fault. Yes single households are not ideal, but until you perfect the human race, there is always gonna be a problem.

Your next point is subjective. There might be a certain element of truth to this but I can see it as such a big issue. If it was i'd here my male friends complain, my boyfriend complain, my male family friends complain, but they don't. Changing a social environment is very difficult because it's an organic being, you can't just instate policies that force people to speak in a certain way without being authoritarian. You're also being deliberately deceitful saying women who use men for money are not called out for it, they're called gold diggers, which last time I checked wasn't a positive term and isn't treated well within the general community. Women's only spaces are admittedly kinda dumb (there's one on my University campus), but in some situations they are necessary. Japan's female only trains and hotel floors are a response to the massive levels of sexual assault in the country. You also have a really fucked up view of the women's movement. "Women won" yes we did, and as a result we are legally and a lot more socially equal to men. Are you against that?

This is something that really grinds my gears. The idea that women cannot be bad. This idea is just as much a product of misogyny than feminism, because women were always put on a kind of moral pedestal. Also last time I checked "traditional" men are the main ones that devalue male sexual assault and predatory female behaviour. Same goes for you're hatred of the "manning up" concept, it's not women doing this the majority of the time, it's other men.

You're acting like every relationship is going to end badly. Sometimes there are divorces, but plenty can be relatively amicable and can be the result of male wrongdoing. You're contradicting yourself because you say that you hate that women are generalised to be "good" but then generalise again and say women are all bad and will take all your money and divorce you. Relationships are a lottery for everyone, some will be good, some will be bad, it's the luck of the draw unfortunately but that's life, it's not somehow easier for women, men fuck us over too.

I'm not saying work doesn't need to be done, I support wholeheartedly trying to fix the justice system, male suicide rates and trying to find a space for male identity but MGTOW ain't the way to fix it.

[taleswapper]

Ah, womansplaining; got to love it. :P Men having trouble? Blame the "patriarchy". Or them. Or circumstances. Or justy deny that it's a "real" problem. Then tell them that if there IS a problem, they either have to "man up", or that the solution that excludes women isn't viable. It's okay for women to "opt out" of dating and emotional relationships, but not men.
Because that's what MGTOW is. Men opting out of the whole "you're not a REAL member of society if you don't have a wife/girlfriend/significant other". schtick. Women can devote themselves to a career, or to being a mom, or to a passionate hobby, or whatever; men must either be husbands/fathers, or devote themselves to supporting society as cops/firefighters/soldiers/etc. And take the heat for anything that goes wrong ("patriarchy").

Having a penis means you are a sacrifice. There IS no other socially acceptable role. Any man that doesn't lay himself on the altar of "social good", or heaven forbid, actually looks for peace and happiness without a woman to validate him, is a selfish prick. And if he objects, well, he's either not "manly", or he's "detracting from the importance of women's issues", or both. Just ask any third-wave feminist; she'll tell you. At great length.

[lilaqua]

Are you serious? Men are the one who have to sacrifice their lives for one or the other. Last time I checked that’s a problem that only effects women.

[ThisAndThat]

@lilaqua You mean it's only women that have to sacrifice their lives aka freedoms to men? Because last time I checked, it's men that have to sign up for selective service that wait to hopefully not die in wars. And last time I checked it was actually men dying in wars. Last time I checked it was 99.999 percent men doing the dangerous jobs that most women wouldn't dare try. Just thought I'd give a little more definition of your meaning of sacrifice.

[taleswapper]

ROFLMAO! Women are the sacrifice? Really? So it's not men who are disproportionately homeless, suicides, or killed on the job? Who knew?

[Ginfiend]

Really good take- I don't really agree with deliberately shunning all men, or shunning all women, particularly when it comes don't to quite vicious reasoning.

The problem isn't men, the problem isn't women, the problem is dickheads.
I know people pf bother genders who've been abused by the other, both sexes who've been wrongly wrung through the mill by the justice system and divorce courts, I've had a man lie about me to the police, I tenuously know two people (one from school, one a work contact's father) with paedophilia charges, I know things come from both sides, and MGTOW seems to ignore that.

Can't we all campaign together to make things more fair and sort out the knobs, rather than just smearing a gender? Change the way society treats all genders.

And for those saying "It's a realisation of being used by a woman for emotional/financial/physical support"- In a decent relationship each partner will support the other equally, that's the point. When I'm with someone I want to do as much if not more for them.

If you don't fancy a relationship, fair enough, but don't smear a gender. It's individuals who are the problem.

[Losalt]

I agree with you that MGTOW is taking the wrong approach.
However it's more then just individuals.
Todays culture and the dominance of third wave feminism *is* doing more harm then good right now because views that don't suit the feminist narrative is being shut down...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY

And while I am sympathetic towards liberitarian left wing anarchist movements in many regards the American Antifa and other movements like that are activly sabotaging speeches and lectures about male issues even when they're held by people who voted for Bernie Sanders.
The very act of dissagreeing with them is apparently a facist point of view...
And huge parts of the feminist movement is acting in equally harmfull ways...

[Ginfiend]

@Losalt I think there is a huge difference here in the UK, here it is individuals, those who push to lead things, I'm starting to see more and more that being in a smaller country can sometimes be a blessing. For me, and for my circles, feminism is equality for everyone, I spend a lot of time campaigning for men's support groups, trying to reduce the male suicide rate, against emotional abuse from both sides, lgbtq rights and education in different countries for everyone. There are of course extremists in any groups, and this is where problems lie.
I disagree with man haters as much as I disagree with woman haters. Technichally 3rd wave ended in 2012, 4th wave is very tech reliant and remains classist in some areas, but I have genuinely seen it cause more good than harm.
For me, if people disagree they disagree, and for me and mine, feminism means equality for everyone, it is egalitarian, but when your views become extreme/facist, disagreeing is far fairer.

[Losalt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut2VVAW0MwM

[Ginfiend]

@Losalt I don't want to be a knob, but if you're wanting me to watch a 27 minute video, would you mind giving me a 2 minute breakdown

[Losalt]

In essence, while you and your friends might think of "feminism" as a fight for equality the very base assumptions of feminism the fundamental theories behind it leaves something to be desired at times...

[Ginfiend]

@Losalt but the fundamental base is equality, it’s gender hating, extremism, poor assumptions that are a problem.
When I say friends, I’m referring to friends, colleagues, peers, hundreds of men and women I’ve shared a stage with campaigning for it to be for everyone, every gender, every sexuality, every race, maybe I’m lucky I’ve not met the extremists, maybe I’ve done well picking circles, or maybe, there’re fewer extremists than press an oppositions claim like in every case.

In my early teens or so, I’d say I was “an egalitarian feminist” rather than just feminist, I’d been warned by my dad that feminism was a dirty word, but the whole point of feminism isn’t women, it’s everyone, we shouldn’t have to add other adages for people to understand it, we shouldn’t have to spend valuable time pointing out that we aren’t extremists, we don’t hate men, we aren’t all angry lesbians (some are, but so what, and being a lesbian doesn’t make you a man hater) we just want things to be better

[Losalt]

No, being a lesbian don't make you a man hater, there's anti-feminist lesbians out there too by the way.
Also, please just look at that video.

[Ginfiend]

@Losalt aghhhhhh my keyboard just dicked out and deleted my reply.

I know, I certainly don;t need schooling, I've remained polite and un-snide with you. I have watched it, although articulate, it follows a very specific path. feminism has developed and changed as time has gone on. Arguable many millenial fourth wavers don't know enough about the deep history to blame things on an "entrenched patriarchy", yes, people should always read up before typing into their insta bios- but this isn't the outright definition. The lady repeatedly says this is her definition and reasoning- but it's not the only logical reasoning surrounding feminism. This isn't what it means for most people., and I get that this is a valid logic, but it's not what it means to me.

[Losalt]

First of all, thank you for watching the video and for keeping the conversation civil.
Secondly, what you support sounds like qualism to me, and I salute you for that.
However by *calling* that equalism for feminism you're indirectly granting legitimacy to a world view and theoretical background that's not just the extremist point of view but mainstream.
Yes, you're right, only the fringest outright states that men should be hated.
However the theoretical fundation of the *mainstream* is in my view based on flawed ideas of a society constructed to supress women when the negative experiences men and women both regardless or ethnicity or religion is experiencing generally have many other explainations that generally tends to have a better fundation and to explain the issues better.
I wish you would use "equalism" as your term instead of feminism and would stand up against the *mainstream* feminism because it *is* holding back research into the core issues behind the problems we face.

[Ginfiend]

@Losalt But for us, mainstream feminism has evolved into equalism as laws and beliefs have changed. I believe that people should help feminism evolve instead of kicking it to the curb. In the 1800s, race, gay rights property laws, classist rulings, everything were completely different- can't feminism be allowed to be too? Can't we make sure the good side is legitimate, and that the extremists don;t out shout the rest of us? To me, equalism/egalitarianism and feminism, are, and should be, one and the same- noone in my circles think differently to that, there are plenty of videos arguing why they are the same thing. I do get why there are differences, but there's also the stubborn childishness with some of us (which I think is also totally legitimate) of not wanting to give up the word so the stubborn childish Ukippers who say women shouldn't wear trousers and their like don't think they've won :')

[Losalt]

Sometimes a change of words *is* needed and holding on to the old ones ends up being harmfull for the cause.
Take global heating vs climate change as an example.
Some parts of the world is actually getting *colder* because of the complex interaction of the various elements making up the climate.
Likewise fighting for something called feminism even *if* what you yourself is fighting for is equalism *still* ends up leading creedence to and further the agenda of those who do not wish to achieve equality at all while simultanously harming your own work towards equality.

[Ginfiend]

@Losalt To be honest though- during my everyday life those who argue with my views aren't doing so from an intelligent standpoint like you are- they are simply saying women, lgbtq and poc aren't equal and shouldn't be- never a comment on terminology.

[Losalt]

That's kind of a two way street thing though.
Respect is earned.

[anonnnyguy]

"The problem isn't men, the problem isn't women, the problem is dickheads"
Good way of putting it. Totally agree, peeps should try to work together rather than just point-score and dunk on the other side.

[ThisDudeHere]

"- #METOO is a legitimate movement showing the universality of sexual assault and rape amongst women, It didn't start to claim all men are rapists."

-Except it has already been abused by women who have never even been touched who now jump on the bandwagon. It's a dangerous thing because nowadays a man is considered guilty and has to be proven innocent, not the other way around, and even if they are proven innocent, the accusation will forever be on their record and thus will continue to negatively affect them in their life and career, if not outright sabotage it.
That and the idea of coming out many years later to report on a crime is just pathetic. Sounds harsh but that's just how it is - pathetic. IF you were assaulted or anything, come forward. If you were too traumatized to come forward and virtually all evidence of the event has faded away, then how is it even conceivable to prove anything? All it will do is ruin a man's career.
ALSO, another reason why metoo is dangerous is because of how vague the definition of assault or rape is becoming. Nowadays you could pat a woman on a shoulder in a congratulatory/supportive way and that'd be assault.

"Swearing off women does nothing but make you more bitter, and prone to generalise 50% of the population."

How do you even know? From what I encountered, most MGTOWs are actually the happiest they've ever been.

"If you really cared you'd try to petition, talk with parliamentarians, make charities and groups supporting your cause that could actually do some good."

-That's what MRAs try to do. But your argument is that thinking of something as futile is wrong. That is not a valid argument. Thinking of something as futile may perhaps be unproductive but it can never be fully correct or wrong - it's just a way of thinking that everyone can and should have the freedom for.

"Plus don't act like men don't tie up women in difficult positions in court, not just with divorces but other kinds of legal proceedings."

-The difference being that those are individual cases, whereas child custody courts that favour women are a systematic problem.

""Women won" yes we did, and as a result we are legally and a lot more socially equal to men. Are you against that?"

-I don't think most young men are against it. What they are against is women having new libertie but seemingly no responsibilities to boot. Women earn equally to men (wage gap is a myth) and yet they expect to be paid for, for example.

[ThisDudeHere]

"Sometimes there are divorces,"
-You mean almost 50% of the time in the West?

"but MGTOW ain't the way to fix it."
-And again, MGTOW was never meant to be a fix for it. Just an alternative for men who are fed up with the frustration of modern society. Aren't they free to live life the way they see fit, so long as it hurts no one?

also, I'm not MGTOW myself, I just studied them for the past few years and although there's a lot that I disagree with, for the most part, they make a helluva lot of sense.

[truthbeknown]

Great post! I agree 100%.

[LegateLanius]

I agree. Brilliant!

[Pauliho]

Very interesting mate

[Anonymous]

I'll start by saying this, I'm not mgtow, mra or feminist. I'm egalitarian, and it's my wish to see the other three vanish in my lifetime because that would mean the "us" vs "them" mentality would have also gone out the window in trying to solve gender related problems.

-#METOO may have started out well but has went over board. The fact that any misinterpreted intention from a man by a woman could end his career and ruin his life is what's happening. All it takes is one accusation true or untrue. It doesn't even have to be proven to get men fired.

This leads me to my second point. The reason why men are legitimately concerned about false accusations of rape and sexual assault is because of the above. On top of that the media still treats men like rapists or sex offenders even after being proven innocent.

Are the above issues fault of feminists? Not completely, society plays a huge part in why the above are issues but feminism does play a huge role. On top of that feminism does seem to throw fuel on the fire.

As for men losing everything in divorce. I do agree with you that it comes from an older way of thinking. The laws have not been updated yet, but it still doesn't change the fact that government doesn't care and that when men try to discuss, petition, or peacefully protests all these things are destroyed or ruined by feminists who show up. Fun fact is that where I live oyu don't even have to be married to a woman to have to pay alimoney and have her take a lot of your stuff. Just live with a woman for three years and she could have your house potentially (and I've seen it happen).

The same thing goes with domestic violence. I'm pretty sure in the 1950's it was unheard of to hear of a man being abused by his wife, girlfriend, significant other. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if it was laughable back then. Not caused by feminism, but feminists sure seem to not like men doing something about it.

I might have a better view of feminism in general if the movement called out the shitty people who are in it and "destroying" its name. Though that's rare.

It's not that all women are shitty. There are shitty women and shitty men and denying it is delusional. Though I see the reason for mgtow and understand why they avoid women. Extreme? Hell yeah, but so are the reason they're in mgtow which are more common then some would like to believe. Mgtow as much as I don't like the community are playing things safe on their own terms.

[Losalt]

True.
But it *is* female (and especially feminist) behaviour that's fueling movements like MGTOW.
When men *do* bring up legimate issues they frequently get shut down and their issues are somehow turned into female issues instead of anyone actually listening to the issues they *do* have.
And your argument that the issues essentially are not real because you don't hear more men complain about them?
Look back to before the start of the fight for womens right, women didn't complain all that much back then either.
Men don't now in part due to apathy, in part due to it not being politically accepted.
In part because they're not heart etc, etc...
Even now in your MyTake you're blaming the patriarchy and misogyny for mens problem even as *women* are fighting for principles like men being assumed guilty unless proven innocent in rape charges etc.
That is *not* a case of equal rights.
And you're talking about men mainly being the perpetrators when dealing with rape and assult vs men, but how do you know?
Do you have *any* idea of what kind of unrecorded incidences are out there?
Tons and tons of men are abused by their *female* partners both physically and psycologically every single day yet all people talk about is how *men* are the ones doing the crimes...
Men get arrested for violence against their female partners when the ones reporting the crime was calling to the police because *she* was being violent towards *him*.
But because he's male *he* is assumed to be the one being violent...
And if the officer in question where to pull a gun *he* would probably be the one being shot first before any questions are asked later...

Where's the misogyny in that?
Mens lives are repeatedly valued less then female lives, we work the most dangerous jobs and die in far larger numbers in those jobs, be it in the army or outside it in fishing or on farms or elsewhere...

I'm not MGTOW myself, but seriously I *do* understand where they're comming from.
Sure generalizing is wrong.
But the sheer volume of unaddressed indjustice towards men from multiple women and the very systems of goverment that's supposed to deal with such unjustice...

There's a ton more too, but I think you get the idea...
I assume that you've seen this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY

Other videos about this kind of topic worth looking at is some of the ones by Karen Straughan on youtube.
You don't need to agree with her, but she brings up a lot of good points I believe.

[Losalt]

Basically if you want to deal with MGTOW then start addressing those women who try to silence men and our legimate issues.
Look closer at your own preconceptions.
And perhaps afterwards we men will be more willing to actually talk with you about issues, both shared ones and those that only one of the two genders have to deal with.

I mean, the list goes on and on.
Spendings on research into female health issues vs things like prostate cancer etc that are male issues despite men living shorter then women on average in pretty much every nation in the world...

[lilaqua]

I’m not trying to silence a lot of those issues. I stated that twice. What I’m annoyed at is how these men blame an entire gender on the basis of generalisation and through something that isn’t their fault. Blame the justice system, governments, why go after women. Golddigging, false rape charges, and evil behaviour by women are a lot more rare than you make it seem, even in those situations I am sympathetic.

[NoFcks2Give]

How many women have you dealt with? How would you know what women in relationships are like?

[Losalt]

"evil behaviour by women are a lot more rare than you make it seem"
You know how feminists always claim that we men can't see how repressed women really is because we don't experience the thing you do ourselves?
Well, the same applies to this but the other way around.
There's a lot of this stuff going on, probably a *lot* more then you may think.
And of course it's not *all* women.
But there's a lot of them doing these things.
And there's also things being done by women that women are not really aware of that's quite frankly unfair.

[NoFcks2Give]

Furthermore, women aren't evil so much as their motivations are not aligned with their belief. Do you know how many "feminist wives"? If that's not an oxymoron I don't know what is.

[Fbomb]

1.) Women have always had the primary responsibility of raising children. It's just a fact that women are more social and enjoy being around children more so than men do. That's not a bad thing at all. The problem is women today have more financial independence today than they had in the past and our divorce courts need to reflect this.

2.) There are many false allegations of rape against men. We know this to be true because there is a huge disconnect between the prosecution rate of rape and the statistical claim that 1 in 6 women will be raped in their lifetime. Doesn't that seem like a bit of a disconnect?

3.) It's not a patriarchal way of thinking. It's well known that both men and women are more likely to acquit a woman for her crimes than that of a man. If women had all the power in the world, nothing would change. Just look at the power women have today. Has anything improved for men? Women only care about other women. There are even scientific studies that prove women show bias for other women.

4.) Where is this social change going to come from? You likely only care now because you see these problems are starting to affect you directly. Which is kind of the whole point of MGTOW. There are men's rights activists and guess who doesn't like them? Feminists.

You forgot a few systemic issues. Women are not legally required to sign-up for the selective service. There are also government programs (I don't remember the names of all these programs) that give government-backed loans to female businesses, but not to male businesses. There is even a government department for women's health, but not one for men. Women also benefit from Affirmative Action and job hiring.

Here's an interesting fact: There is a higher percentage of women working in STEM fields than there are qualified female graduates. Is that not proof that women are being hired over men in the very professions they claim discrimination?

5.) We have heard all about the strong, independent, single-mother before. Would these women have these children if the state did not support them financially? Don't you think they might be more selective about who they sleep with if they didn't get a paycheck for squirting out kids? Women even have more birth control options than men. They can take the pill, the morning after pill, use contraceptives, have an abortion, give the child up for adoption without naming or notify the father, surrender the child under safe haven laws, and other options as well.

[Benedek38]

Most of what you say is the usualsolution feminist narrative.
"It's the patriarchy! We just have to wade through the shit and help women, and then somehow this will help men!"
Yeah, no sista, no. I've had way too much talk with feminists to smell this kind of bullshit from a mile away. Crushing the patriarchy doesn't work because it doesn't exist. Feminism is high stakes shadowboxing at this point.

"you really cared you'd try to petition, talk with parliamentarians, make charities and groups supporting your cause that could actually do some good."
Look at that! Sounds almost like the MRM - a movement branded a misogynist hategroup by the SPLC, and routinely boycotted and berated by feminists. Ironic.

"There might be a certain element of truth to this but I can see it as such a big issue. If it was i'd here my male friends complain, my boyfriend complain, my male family friends complain, but they don't."
And I as far as I can remember, the majority of women back in the day weren't interested in universal voting rights and the ability to work.
Part of the POINT of a gynocentric society is that men have no place to complain, because they are seen as less of a man for it.

"You're also being deliberately deceitful saying women who use men for money are not called out for it, they're called gold diggers, which last time I checked wasn't a positive term and isn't treated well within the general community."
That's an oversimplification. Ever heard of the "glass floor"?
Essentially women are discouraged from dealing down. If the man's status is lower than of the woman, the woman won't be attracted to him. This is commonly referred to as hypergamy, and it is observable in the majority of women. Ask a woman with a college degree if she'd date a high school graduate with a decent job. Most wouldn't. Ask one with a PhD if she'd date a guy who earns only 5 digits annually. Answer: no.
Essentially, women have about the same positions in the world as men, but expect men to be somehow magically better.

" "manning up" concept, it's not women doing this the majority of the time, it's other men."
So you want me to recall every time I've been told to "man up" by women? Hint: it ain't a single digit number.

[Benedek38]

"you say that you hate that women are generalised to be "good" but then generalise again and say women are all bad and will take all your money and divorce you."
1. Expect the unexpected.
2. Tits for tats.
There are many feminists, or women in general, who carry pepper spray or avoid locales altogether because they had bad experiences with men. How is this any different?

"Relationships are a lottery for everyone, some will be good, some will be bad"
Yeah, but you yourself admitted that it is kinda-sorta totally rigged againdt guys. So why should they put up with it?

"support wholeheartedly trying to fix the justice system, male suicide rates and trying to find a space for male identity but MGTOW ain't the way to fix it."

That's just like... your opinion. You know what they say - the proof of the pudding is the eating. Don't pretend you see the future. 60 years ago most people said women will never fill make positions.

[ManOnFire]

I never agreed with MGTOW, I think it's ridiculous, but I can understand the basic frustration with these guys. A lot of it is not as simple or plainly political as you're saying. You're basically saying that men's gripes are the fault of other men and that women have had little to do with it, and this is not so.

"divorce court rulings are a result of a time period in which women did not work and had the primary responsibility of raising children. It's outdated but fixable"
- Women work now, and the situation is still the same.

"If you really cared you'd try to petition, talk with parliamentarians, make charities and groups supporting your cause that could actually do some good."
- Actually there are men doing this. These are the "Men's Rights Activists," who to me aren't much better or different from feminists but they are a little more levelheaded than MGTOWists.

"The single parent families are treated like this epidemic of selfish women and how it should be stopped..."
- Some of this true, but you also have a lot of single moms out there because they were immature and wanted to sleep with badasses. Bad life decisions can put you in a bad way too.

"This is something that really grinds my gears. The idea that women cannot be bad. This idea is just as much a product of misogyny than feminism, because women were always put on a kind of moral pedestal."
- Yet most women have and do agree with and reinforce this pedestal. If they didn't then they wouldn't get upset when anyone - either a man or a woman - shows them up for their less-than-perfect actions and behaviors, and wouldn't be quick to call it sexism. There would also be more women who can admit where women fail and are not always in the right. But there aren't because ultimately the ego of women still does want to be regarded as better or more superior to men morally, emotionally, sexually, intellectualy, etc.

Some of your points are right but the situation still goes a little deeper than your explanation. Women are very much just as involved in a mental or emotional "oppression" of men in our culture, and without any 'patriarchal' influence.

[hellionthesagereborn]

The insane bias courts have towards women is not fixable unless we acknowledge why its their to begin with. They claim the men are not in the childs life as much as the mother but completely ignore the fact that its the father who provides everything and is required by society and women to be the bread winner so he is not allowed the option to be around his children as much as the woman. So unless this is acknowledged the problem won't change and women don't want it to change because that would negatively impact them (which is why women's/feminist groups have advocated for this bias (NOW endorsed it and lobbied for it and where proud of the fact)).

False rape allegations are not rare, in fact because of their nature they are actually pretty common. According to two studies: https://archive.org/details/FalseRapeAllegations
https://archive.is/mnK1s
about 40% of allegations are false and according to another study:
www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_2_4.htm
found it was as high as 60%.
They also found that if the woman did not go to the hospital on her own right after the incident, if she only reported it through pressure from friends and family and/or if she stated it after the fact (six months or longer) their was a significantly greater probability that the allegation was false (which is also almost all of the #MeToo accusations). The fact is its a good way to get sympathy and destroy some ones life with little to no consequence for the woman so a lot of shitty women do use it as a way to get those things. Its kind of interesting how we are more then willing to believe that their is a huge epidemic of evil sexist rapist men but the idea that women could also be just as bad is just so completely foreign as to be laughable, according to our society. Look at your own response, you say its difficult to determine yet then in the same exact sentence determine that its exceedingly rare. Well which one is it, is it an unknown or is it known? Those are mutually exclusive. Women can and do do bad things at the same rates as men, this is one of them.

[hellionthesagereborn]

As for the claims of the explicit bias towards women being "patriarchal" again, this is yet another reason why MGTOW exists, even when you benefit from it some how its still a mans fault. If a man suffers its a mans fault, if a woman suffers its a mans fault, if a man benefits its because of misogyny, if a woman benefits its also because of misogyny. At some point we need to actually address women's role in these biases. Yes their is a biological component, we are wired to cater to women, but women exploit this fact to their own benefit. That's why women are ALWAYS the victim, because women play the victim role. These biases are as much women's fault as men's because its women who are screaming about the poor women, more so then men. You did it in your own take even as you pointed out the bias. You made it a point to show that it was some how men's fault even when you benefited from it. That's playing the victim and women do it very well, it is their greatest power.

[hellionthesagereborn]

As for the social changes, how did they occur? Feminist. The Deluth model of domestic violence that essentially states men are the oppressors and women the victims (by looking through the lens of power struggles etc), was created by and pushed for by feminist i. e. women. Women are the ones saying that men are not suffering in any way and that women are the victims, they are the ones pushing for laws that are completely one sided (as I pointed out) and down playing all the bad things women do (as I previously pointed out). So women are the problem in this regard, because women are pushing these laws, its also true that every time men have attempted to rise up and do something about this they are destroyed by feminist who have greater power (because again they have lobbiest groups and control over the social narrative as well as innate instincts that make men want to protect them while having innate instincts that make people view men as disposable) and political clout.

[hellionthesagereborn]

They can't get their foot in the door. Look at how MRA's are represented, if you look at Casey Jay's "The Red Pill" documentary and what she went through you will see the struggles men's rights groups go through in an attempt to just have their statements viewed as plausible let alone make actual change. That's why some men simply have given up, its a task that seems impossible with our biological predispositions to favor women and be apathetic towards men (you cannot expect a man to stay behind on a sinking ship while saving women and see them as equally valuable, nor can you expect a man to die fighting to protect a woman if you see them both as being equals). The fact is your entire take shows this inherent bias to favor women and disregard men. Now To clarify I do not agree with MGTOW, but I do understand why they do it and your response is part of the problem.

[englisc]

There are many things that people don't understand about MGTOW issues. As I've mentioned before in other comments I'm not a MGTOW - I'm happily engaged - but I can understand their reasons for wanting to avoid marriage, and I think that feminism really is to blame. I'll explain why.

"divorce court rulings are a result of a time period in which women did not work and had the primary responsibility of raising children. It's outdated but fixable"

In the past, the financial responsibility for the children was placed on the man, with men being the breadwinners. For this reason in the case of divorce the children went to the men by default. Back then divorce was fault-based, so if the man was at fault for the divorce e. g. if he cheated, he had to pay the woman alimony.

Many people believe that these divorce rulings come from those times, but only certain things do. While married women did tend to stay home to take care of the children, the responsibility wasn't placed on them, and as I mentioned child custody didn't go to them most of the time. That was actually something that was brought in by feminists, with what is called "The Tender Years Doctrine", which stated that children should go to the Mother. The reason this was implemented, their argument for it, was that it didn't make women happy. So they transferred custody to women - what never changed was the financial responsibility which was still placed on the man - this is where child support comes from.

Then later feminists campaigned for "no fault" divorce. In fault-based divorce if a woman was at fault e. g. if she cheated, she didn't get alimony. With "no-fault" divorce she got it anyway.

So then, as a result of "The Tender Years Doctrine" and "no-fault" divorce, both put in place by feminism, she could be at fault for the divorce or even divorce for no reason at all, she'd get the kids, and he'd have to pay her alimony and child support.

A fairer system would allow shared custody or a 50/50 chance for either the Mother or Father to get custody - that's not what they campaigned for. Ir would also be more fair if, when the custody went to the Mother, just as when it went to the men previously, the parent who got custody was the one to bear the financial responsibility - they didn't campaign for that either. It was a transferal of rights without transferal of/equal responsibility. That's what makes it unfair and unequal. That's one of many things MGTOW are against and want to avoid.

[englisc]

Some say that men might initiate divorces too, but 75% of divorces are initiated by women, and that should be no surprise when divorce laws benefit them over men.

As for it being fixable, it should be fixable but many people aren't interested in fixing it - in fact feminist organisations such as the National Organisation For Women opposed shared parenting because they say that it could be used by abusive Fathers to use their kids was weapons against women - a very clearly anti-male bias, especially since men make up around 50% of domestic violence victims - something which feminists also lie about.

Instead most people would rather call men who complain about these things, which are valid issues, "whiners", "bitter misogynists" etc. If those men want to avoid marriage because it seems like there's no advantage to it at all, just a big bill at the end if it goes wrong, again rather than fixing these things they'd rather name call. For this reason it won't get fixed any time soon.

[LogicBomber]

False rape charges make up at least 40% of cases. That isn't rare.

MeToo is a witch hunt full of false victims based on the actions of 2 or 3 legitimate people. "unwanted advancements is not rape", women don't make the first move so how are men supposed to find out if you are interested in without making a move and if you don't like him it is now considered "an unwanted advancement".

There is no such thing as the "Patriarchy", saying it does is like an adult believing in Santa Claus... you just sound challenged.

When it comes to "generalizing 50% of the population", that is something feminist do best. Not men who are tired of the bullshit.

Do you know what happens when men try to petition or speak about men's issues... Feminist aggressively silence them using every hateful method possible. Ex: Warren Farrell at UofT.

The women's movement is a hate group, his view of it can be backed up with endless examples from leading feminist groups whose actions prove the definition means nothing.

I love how you turn the idea that women can't be bad into a product of misogyny. That's exactly the kind of scapegoating that feminist constantly do to avoid taking any responsibility for the things they do.

The idea that most relationships will end badly can easily be seen by the divorce rate and the fact that women use societies bias to take HALF of everything a man has. Men pay 97% of Alimony, Men lose custody in 84% of divorces, Women initiating divorce between 66% and 90% of the time. Yes, some of those times the male is an asshole, but equally so, women are the asshole.

The only way women will understand that it's because of men that they have life on easy mode is for men to step back and say "fuck it, I quit".

If men stop providing for women, protecting women, dying for women (be it at war or in jobs like oil rigging, construction, and 99% of all deadly jobs), and when society stops coddling women like children who are incapable of proper decision making and responsibility... then and only then will women start to respect men the way they constantly tell men to respect them.

[StrangerByTheDay]

Hello dear lilaqua,
first let me congratulate you on this wonderful article and say "Thank You" :-)
To start, I am a straight man (I respect LGBTQ+).
I totally agree with you that indeed "MGTOW ain't the way to fix it".
For me, honestly, any kind of movement against "Respecting & Loving" a woman is out of the equation, for the simple fact that women are strong humans, ever better than the male specie!! Yes, "Women won".
Why?
Because they are simply better than men at almost everything!
raising children, taking care of a home, exceeding in a career, cooking, etc...
A real man calls his woman HOME.
I know the struggle of "The single parent families...", as for my father died when I was 11 years old and I saw my Mother taking care of everything as a single parent, and in my own opinion, very few are the men who would have put the challenge with her.
Yes, we all have "Mothers", and they are "Women".
As part of being humans, we make mistakes, men or women, so yes, I totally agree with you by saying "until you perfect the human race, there is always gonna be a problem"

"take all your money and divorce you"
This is a problem nowadays we are all facing.
Not every woman is a gold digger.
There are men gold diggers too. I happened to see them. It is disgusting taking advantage of a woman for her money.
There are people, regardless the gender, who are unfortunately gold diggers.
This is why I try so hard to explain to my friends that in a relationship, the best way to manage money is to have a third joint account that holds the common expenses.
The woman keeps the money she is working hard for, as well as the man.
I am not talking all men are the same, neither all women are, but there are people like that, and if "MGTOW" means hurting, disrespecting, slaving, etc... a woman, then I am against it.
I want to ask a really good question here:
Would you, "MGTOW" people, treat your own Mother like that? As far as I know we are all born the same way! Yes, A powerful woman gave us birth. Can I give birth? No. Can I hold a child and protect a life inside me for 9 months? of course NO.
Respecting and loving a woman for what she is capable of doing, being aware she does more than what a man can do, does not mean I am being less manly, on the contrary, it means I care too much about her, and love her a lot.

P. S.: I did not generalize anything, just saying the facts, in my own honest opinion. There are good and bad people regardless the gender.
Sorry for my long opinion :-)

[redrocket68]

Women outperform men in areas related to nurturing and in deception and manipulation "people skills" . But to act like they outperform is in almost every way is simply delusional ass kissing on your behalf. There are plenty of things men simply do better than women there are also things men do women aren't typically capable of.

[StrangerByTheDay]

@redrocket68 Prove me wrong and give me real examples instead of laying out things you are not sure of.
As far as I know, women are also engaged in the Army and fighting in war as real men.
You want to make a point, then lay down good arguments.
There is nothing delusional in what I have said. You are my friend just upset from the fact that women indeed are better human than men.

[redrocket68]

Well #1 they don't fill combat roles in the army. They aren't fit for them. Not only physically but more importantly mentally. The vast majority of engineers are men. Any field where stoic logical decision making is needed or a technical mechanical know how is required you are going ti see far more men than women. Yes women graduate college at a higher rate but compared to men they are more likely to major in something useless because they follow their heart and passion instead of what makes money. The roles they do fill more than men that are productive financially are usually unnecessary "human resources etc..." Either way they do excel in social fields but in technical fields or combat roles women do not out perform men. And a woman cannot properly raise children on her own and do a good job. This is feminist propaganda and ir has done nothing but destroy the family unit in western society. They excel in a few places but they are far from surpassing men overall. stop kissing ass.

[StrangerByTheDay]

@redrocket68
Majority does not count my friend. You can have 100 red apples, yet one only perfect apple!
Who told you they don't go to combat? Based on your country only? Take a look around and out of the box my friend. Open up your eyes. They are flying "Fighters".
I have seen women creating or directing big companies, here in Lebanon and in the middle east because they are getting the chance to prove themselves, while people like you just shut them down because they are women.
OK. Am not going to continue because you are only making an "Essay" on what you see with your eyes, not what is really happening.
If you say you can make the world change. I for instance do not give you the chance to do it because you are only human, and not some super hero. How could you prove me you are capable?
My friend, just go open your eyes and look around.
Women are able to just what men are able to do, and more.
Stop trying to convince yourself the opposite.

[StrangerByTheDay]

@redrocket68
I am not saying the world should be feminist, and not saying we should support any movement like MGTOW either.
We are all human at the end.
Women have the right to demand for the same rights you have, as humans they deserve it.
Would you accept your own Mother, the person who gave you birth, to be treated differently just because she is a woman?

[Dchrls78104]

@StrangerByTheDay Women always had these rights. The fault for the rise of feminism and MGTOW lies with Western nations. They were the ones who were slow to do the job.

[StrangerByTheDay]

@Dchrls78104
I understand you my friend.
All I am saying, there is no need for any movement to see how strong a woman is really.
What is wrong with being who we really are, respecting each other, and just live?
We all, as humans, have rights.
What is so hard to understand?
Why should there be someone stronger than somebody else?
It is a shame.

"YAY, look at me, I'm better than you, I'm stronger than you"
Well, congratulations :-)

[redrocket68]

I suppose it is a shame. But its still the natural way and no matter how civilised we become that won't actually change. Women still expect men to be stronger than them. They still want to be dominated and are unhappy in a truly equal relationship. They will always desire the strongest male for sex. Men are being told conflicting advice from women. They want to be independent and free and completely equal in a relationship with their man and on the same hand they are turned off by a man thats too complacent and actually treats them equally. For example if she's arguing with you and msybe she makesa valid point so you change your position a bit and maybe you apologize or tell her she was right about xyz after all.. she will think you are weak and you are just sucking up to her. She will respect you less for it. So in short there's a conflict of interests between what women say and even think they want and what they actually respond well to.

[StrangerByTheDay]

@redrocket68
With all due respect my friend, you are just saying "they", "they", "they", etc...
How do you know, regardless the gender, what "they" really want?
We are all different. Some may like it others not.
So it goes down again on the "Human" and the soul, regardless the gender.
Why have movements and haters, creating a war between genders?
Haven't we all had enough of war?
It is always a battle between civil, religion, gender, etc...
Why can't we stop and think for a while instead of creating this much of hating and rage?
I have a friend, married, perfectly equal with his wife. They have been married for years. It's working for them. and also working for other people like them. but it does not mean it should be working for everybody as for we are all different.

[Screamsgutter]

The only reason why women are anywhere near combat roles is because the military lowered the physical requirements massively so they could pass. Don't you know this yet? Also, women haven't built anything. Physically constructed anything - on their own.

[Anonymous]

"time period in which women did not work and had the primary responsibility of raising children"
Men generally used to get custody until feminism called it unfair and then apparently fair meant women get to have either kids instead of the fathers and they get the fathers money as well.

"false rape charges are actually exceedingly rare"
How would you even know?

"universality of sexual assault and rape"
That's such a ridiculous statement. Sexual assault/being raped are not universal to women.

"very patriarchal way of thinking"
Or a very gynocentric way of thinking.
Feminists must be very patriarchal then.

"Swearing off women"
Constantly they hear this shit like "patriarchal way of thinking", #MeToo accusations, getting screwed in divorce court and false accusations. They're not being listened to or appreciated or helped so it makes sense to leave. I know I personally had the thought "well apparently everything about me (a male) is wrong, so I've got no reason to stay and if I leave and have nothing to do with any part of it then I can't be held responsible or accused of anything." But even avoiding women so that you can't possibly do anything to harm them still gets you just as much shit. It's ridiculous.
It's not about generalizing half the population. Given the cultural/social/legal zeitgeist there's a feeling that it's not safe for men and we're still moving in that direction.

"manning up" concept, it's not women doing this the majority of the time, it's other men."
No, men don't give a fuck how manly other guys are. They only care that women like them and women generally insist that suitors be manly. That is the gynocentric attitude MGTOW steers men away from; stop worrying about what women think of you. You can be happy without women or physical intimacy.

"you can't just instate policies that force people to speak in a certain way without being authoritarian"
Feminism is fairly authoritarian then... we knew that.

"This idea is just as much a product of misogyny than feminism"
But not of liberalism. Why must everything be a contrast being archaic cultural norms and feminism? This is just to make feminism look good and I see it all the time. The more sensible context to argue in is in the contrast between feminism and liberalism, that's what we're facing and that's what people have a problem with. Nobody gives a damn about the traditional culture you're talking about, it's out, it's gone, it's old news. It's just being used as a straw-man

[Opinion Owner]

"Women won" yes we did, and as a result we are legally and a lot more socially equal to men"
So we're just going to pretend that men aren't getting shit on? There's such a thing as going to far, but I don't even think it's that, I think men got shit on in some ways and now they're shit on in other ways.
Are men more socially equal to women though?

"generalised to be "good" but then generalise again and say women are all bad"
Being considered good, but actually being bad is not a logically inconsistent statement.

[Opinion Owner]

"some will be good, some will be bad, it's the luck of the draw unfortunately but that's life, it's not somehow easier for women"
That frames it like it's a purely random and universal chance. That is necessarily not the case. Being perfectly even is super unlikely. All that patriarchy talk says you believe men fucked women over more at some point, but now it can't possibly be going the other way? Men are demonstrably being fucked over more. That's the whole point of the arguments concerning false accusations, divorce/family court, domestic violence, etc.

"MGTOW ain't the way to fix it."
It's never been MGTOW's intention to fix anything, for the most part it's a philosophy to help you survive and stay sane until something changes.

[Anonymous]

Marriage just seems completely antiquated. The vast amount of pros people try to give to marriage are false and really the only thing holding it together is tradition and nothing more.

I don't hate marriage as a MGTOW men need to protect themselves kind of way. I just think it is the catalyst to soo much bitterness between the genders.

DYK that if you're unmmaried and have children both parents if they work can claim the same child as dependent on them legally so both parents get tax benefits from that and tax benefits from a dependent child is quite a bit larger than tax benefits from marriage. If you are married you can only claim the child as a dependent once. So unless you plan on having 0 kids you actually get better tax benefits by not being married.

floridapolitics.com/.../193015-womens-group-calls-on-gov-scott-to-reject-tom-lees-proposed-alimony-bill

The fact of the matter is it is feminists that are trying to keep family laws from being modernized. I don't have women or equality but I do heavily disagree with the feminist movement because no matter how many words come out of their mouth about equality every action they take is against equality. They hate sexism when it burdens them and they like sexism when it benefits them. I do align with a lot of what feminism does but I'll never call myself a feminist because they have some foundational beliefs that I am truly against as someone who actually wants the actual definition of equality.

Feminists aren't the only movement with double standards but they are being praised by society which makes them the most dangerous one because unlike other sexist movements they may actually succeed.

Possibly the worst offense I saw by the feminist movement was at the womens march in 2017.

Donna Hylton was a featured speaker at the march. She helped kidnap, torture, mutilate, rape and murder a man for being a homosexual. She has at no point ever apologized or shown any form of remorse other than playing victim herself. And she was an actually featured speaker at the event. That tells me everything I need to know about feminism.

So if you want to call yourself a feminist fine. But I and 82% of men and 77% of women will continue not to call ourselves feminists. I will never turn a blind eye to the things that the feminist movement is doing in the 21st century.

[AlphaGhost]

So you are saying 90% of times or always its the man fault,
right can you smell it?
Its the same shit in different clothes, Why the hell woman are always victim throughout the history and even in 21st century with rights?

You really need to think this through forcing a man to be feminine is the first thing against the equality. I know you will act like delusional my gen hate the "marriage thing" cuz it was supposed to help woman in the first place but now there is nothing in it for male gender.
We can cook, clean and hunt for pussy very easily now and we don't have to put up with one old swag too cuz you can get it with out legalizing it and you can get the kids with-out it either.
Its fair game for male gender woman earn too, so it lowers the strain on our pocket and you can fuck multiple woman too.
Feminism have only benefited male gender but idiots are unable to exploit it and complain and even if you did make fatal mistake, pay your way out.
There is plenty of wild pussy outhere to trash

[AlphaGhost]

It will sound harsh and biased but its "fucking cold and bitter truth" and I am not happy with rude language either but it delivers the message properly.

[truthbeknown]

I agree 100%. Love these anti MGTOW posts from obviously bitter women.

[lilaqua]

Hahahahaha you think I’m bitter. I just think the guy who posted the original mytake was heavily misinformed.

[AlphaGhost]

Okay tell me,
How I am misinformed about the stuff?
Pay your way out by 50% or lowering the strain on our pocket (pay for date), marriage only for female cuz you do realize man are supposed to fuck multiple woman. I would like you to explain How feminism have not benefited the man?
I love the woman working part cuz they use planet O2 and use energy, so they must play their part too.

[ThisAndThat]

I wouldn't date a female from the US or one that has been westernized aka feminazism. You think things are equal? Really? Tell you what, call the cops and tell them there is a domestic disturbance between a female and a male. Before they show up, put some makeup on a guy that looks like scratches and bruises, and nothing on the girl, let them speak for them selves. Let him tell the cops he was only trying to defend himself never putting a hand on her she was hitting and beating on him. Let her say he hit her with absolutely no marks on her. Let the copse see what looks bruises on him and nothing on her. Then see they end up putting in the back seat of the cop that goes to jail. I guaranteed you, I promise you, it will be him he's the one going to jail, not her. And today, my niece went to a mans funeral that shot himself. Why did he shoot himself? He shot himself because the owner of his apartment sold the place and told him he needed to leave and he had no place to go. Too bad women's shelters don't work for men, isn't it? No thank you, I'm sticking to MGTOW 100% as I have done for the last 32 years even before MGTOW was officially coined MGTOW, the safest place for us me.

[Tomblebee]

Wait can women who get kicked out of their residency go to a shelter?

[Tomblebee]

It's not like all women made the rules. It's not all womens fault you fullas feel/are disadvanteged.

[JackalOfNar]

I mean. What if she's goofy rich.

[apple24]

thump up!

[ThisAndThat]

@Tomblebee 99.999 percent of anti male legislation is pushed by feminist and gets passed due to women such as the new trafficking law that just passed laying the blame of human trafficking on website owners in affect closing down countless US dating sites in the USA. Well congratulations to those females out there that pushed these laws, because now the men that that haven't gone MGTOW that were looking for women in the US are now looking for women on foreign sites. First MGTOW and now foreign women. The women in the US have some serious competition now. Feminist and women in general, they don't understand for every action there is a reaction.

[ThisAndThat]

I didn't realize I'd already commented on this question. But, that girl in the t-shirt, she's super gorgeous, lots of attention. Bet the feminazi's were really steaming lol

[Tomblebee]

You saying all women are judged based on the actions of few?

[ThisAndThat]

@Tomblebee No that's not it. What I'm saying is good women are becoming far and few in between at home, really hard to find. And for us guys, is it worth the risk? Not all women at home are bad.

[Tomblebee]

I'm not saying I don't feel for ya's. :(

[ThisAndThat]

@Tomblebee Well thanks! But yeah these crazy feminist have upset the bandwagon. So much to the tune it's well known in other countries.

[Tomblebee]

Should we not be more concerned about malaria and climate change and hydraulic fracking?

[ThisAndThat]

@Tomblebee Should we not be more concerned about malaria and climate change and hydraulic fracking? The re emergence of diseases like malaria and TB in US anyway, are due to illegals bringing diseases those diseases that were once eradicated into the US. That's why it's so important to have borders and enforced immigration laws. As for global warming, it's been proven it's a hoax. If you don't believe that google the icecaps and see the images for yourself. They're actually growing and our temperature are actually cooling. Now as for as fracking goes, that's a whole other story.

[Tomblebee]

Tell me the storyyyyyyyyyy.
Also... I said climate change not global warming... you tardaseil.

[ThisAndThat]

@Tomblebee The whole global warming thing is what climate change is all about.

[Tomblebee]

It's about the minimum and maximum of a box and whisker plot extending to the extremities.. therefore ice stats don't really cover it mate.
*

[ThisAndThat]

@Tomblebee Records have already shown that scientist manipulated data in order to reflect global warming. The weather will always change it's done so for thousands of years and taxing the crud out of tax payers in order to pay off mother nature amounts to absolutely nothing but a thriftless tax.

[Tomblebee]

Maybe so but still best to get out of them non-renewables though.

[VegetaSSB]

MGTOW should just focus on going your own way and finding the right path for you in life and not this fucking bitterness towards women. About movements and improvements, all are a part of a big political plan to implement a one world government, so how much less movements that can be infiltrated by intelligence agencies and how much more individual but at the same time cohesive actions towards improvements the better results will be achieved, but for this time and moment the best would be for everyone that wants to really be safe and free in the near future getting ready to move to country houses and living a more or less self sustaining life producing your own food, making your own water resercatory and purification system and so on, because when the one world government hits everyone who will refuse the chips won´t be able to buy or sell anything, so be ready to self sustain yourself or at some point in more or less 10 years in the future the occultist elite will have the last step ready to the implementation of this one world government and whoever falls for it will be turned into slaves and will have less and less rights till the prophecies come to pass in which there will be the definite what between positive and negative aliens for the freedom or definite enslavement of the planet, be ready for this.

[MlleCake]

And the divorce and custody laws are not written to benefit women. They are written to prevent an economically disadvantaged partner from being left with no support.

Increasingly, alimony is NOT awarded in divorce cases. But in cases where it is the woman who makes significantly more, she is subject to paying alimony just as a man would.

These laws only appear to favor women because women are most likely to be the economically disadvantaged partner.

The fact that men do not have DV shelters is not the fault of feminism. Though mn and other genders besides women can and do experience DV, it appears most victims are still women, and because of that, women got the most attention is speaking out against DV and developing shelters. But it is a patriarchal assumption that only women suffer from DV. Men are beginning to speak out, and I am very glad about that. If men need domestic violence shelters, then they need to do all the same stuff everyone had to do to have women's shelters created. Feminists are not stopping them, rather, many would work alongside men who were trying to create more DV shelters.

It's also patriarchal assumptions that men deserve more prison time for crimes than a woman would receive.

These are exactly the kinds of mindset feminists are trying to break down.

[dolemite68]

Your conclusions always seemed to be very normative and disregard reality and the cold truth

[TheUglyMan]

Feminism is the enemy to the masculine man.

[MlleCake]

@TheUglyMan Masculinity is not threatened by feminism. Weak ass fuckers are threatened by feminism. Fuck 'em. They're dead weight - holdovers from another area. Chaff. They'll eventually be winnowed out.

[SouthernHospitality]

I think this generation of feminists has been a response to feeling threatened by musculinity. They were tired of losing, which is understandable, but you generally don't see a lot of really attractive feminists. The really good looking one's don't go extreme. They maybe stay feminist in belief, but aren't active. So, it's the same on both sides of the coin. Mgtow and feminists.

[somewheresomeway]

"These are exactly the kinds of mindset feminists are trying to break down."... so at the last women's rights march in Las Vegas how many women held signs saying "I want the same prison time for the man who committed the same crime" or "I want gender-based affirmative action removed" or "I want to be assumed to be a pedophile around small children".

The feminists who are protesting, getting heard and are in front of the cameras care about only one thing and one thing only... themselves. You may say "well not all feminists are like that" and some women really do believe in REAL equal rights (along with all the ugly responsibilities it comes to be a man). However, the term "feminist" has gotten so twisted and convoluted it needs to be called something else.

Also when it comes down to mating woman are never EVER going to change about how they select men. Feminist or not 99.99999999% of women want a tough masculine alpha guy. They are biologically hard-coded to be this way.

[TheUglyMan]

@MlleCake it is they are our enemy every masculine man knows it. especially the ones who went to university they know feminism is the enemy.

[MlleCake]

@TheUglyMan Idiots fear feminism. Masculine men with confidence and honor do no. Men of quality do not fear women's equality.

it's not Feminism's job to fight for men. men can fight for themselves. We ARE trying to break down gender stereotypes, and that willhelp men too, and we are happy for that. But men have the money, the power, and even the political will tomake just about anything happen that they wish. So if men need sentencing reform, they can get involved in sentencing reform. Many feminists are. It just isn't a specifically feminist cause. You're trying to make it seem like shameful thing for women to focus on women. Men focus on men all the time, but it's so ordinary, you hardly realize it.

So tell me, what are YOU doing about sentencing reform?

[somewheresomeway]

“Weak men fear feminism” there is another favorite comeback that you all parrot.

No men are seeing the long term damage feminism is creating. You dominate public education and are teaching young boys to be ashamed to be men. This has a detrimental impact on their identities and ultimately FRUSTRATES WOMEN TOO.

The good news is not all women are stupid. Some are catching on too this crap. They realize that 3rd wave feminism is not about equal rights anymore but greed.

[LeoLionEye]

Wow! You really don't understand men and their issues do you. This is one of the most uninformed thing I have ever read.

[MlleCake]

@LeoLionEye I don't claim to understand or know all of what men's issues are. I respect men have them, and I want the men of this world to have decent, lives where they have well-being, so I care in that sense.

[somewheresomeway]

Well men complain they get called weak, beta and insecure. But when women do it they get merit via victimhood status.

That’s what we are fed up about. I don’t want men complaining but I just want feminists to shut up.

[TheFlak38]

And I thought the mgtow guy article was bad. You're even worse, which frankly is not a surprise for a woman in the western world.

So we shouldn't blame feminism? Really? What should we blame then? the reaction?

"women were always put on a kind of moral pedestal."
When was that? In the 60's? What moral pedestal is there for women today? You can go out and scream "Im a slut!" and they will make you the mayor of slutville. You can bang a billion guys and still find the one sucker who will marry you and spend his money and health for you and society will never shame you for that. You can create a patron and start uploading nudes of yourself and make a living just by feeding nudes to thirsty guys online.

Most single mothers are single by choice so don't sugar coat that either. My own mother was single by choice too. She decide to dump my dad one day and take me and my brother away from him and then went on to destroy his life in the divorce court.

You haven't offered one rational solution to the problem. You're a feminist in disguise.

[TheFlak38]

And one more thing. The MeToo movement is nothing but a bunch of whores who got old and suddenly decided to seek more attention and so triggered a series of false rape accusations. Usual things in the western world. Ever heard of the casting couch? Thats called consent. Not rape.

[oddwaffle]

Yeah, a lot of people are taking sides but forget the centrists who tend to be on the fences for most issues. The average people who sits around and worry. The majority of the people who have little opinion because they haven't gone through the experience.

MGTOW has a point that marriage is a risk. It's a constant risk and it could end up really badly for the guy.

That doesn't mean the guys should live like monks in the deep mountains. It just means that they should delay or scrap the whole marriage thing unless it's unavoidable. They should also take steps to avoid getting burned. They shouldn't spend their days in ignorant bliss after they got a wife and a couple kids. They need to take control of their own lives and make the informed choices instead of following whatever society dictates.

On the other hand, the feminists also have a point about workplace discrimination.

The old boys clubs are real. So are the glass ceilings as well as the glass cliff. Women get paid a lower wage because they didn't ask for extra pay. They get passed on for promotions because the other guy spends more time working while the woman wants to spend more time with her kids.

Board of directors would usually promote a woman when things get bad. They want to try something new so they promote the women into hard times. "If she gets us pass this then great. If not then we will get a proper man in place. We could tell the share holders that we tried!"

Both issues require a lot of changes from both the legislature as well as the courts. Neither are willing to move.

[redrocket68]

False rape accusations are not rare. They happen all the time. Look at Bill Cosby. Do you really think all these rape cases are legit? The fact is rape is a fairly rare crime and a horrific one at that and the way feminists focus so heavily on rape actually discredits legitament victims of rape. Yes. False rape accusations are "rare" but they do happen enough for us to know it isn't something we just shouldn't worry about. Stuff like #metoo essentially makes it trendy to be a victim. People have a herd mentality especially women. I feel like a lot of the people raising awareness with #metoo are just seeking attention. Not all of them but many. I'd say about 75% of the girls I've been with mention some story about being raped. Real rape victims are often embarrassed and ashamed to come forward so the way these women volunteer this information tells me they weren't actually raped. Or at least a majority weren't. Not to mention the statistics don't line up with the claims. Its literally like every girl I meet that claims to have been raped but look at the actual crime statistics... And if you can't see how modern day feminism pits women against men and vice versa I don't know what to tell you. Its psychology... like I was saying humans have a herd mentality so women naturally start to divide it into an "us" versus "them" mentality thanks to the way feminism tells women they are victims of men. I think some of it is rooted in good intention but the outcome has been nothing positive.

[Anonymous]

I read this and there is a few points I agree with but way more points that I disagree with. I honestly don't think you full understand men on a lot of these points and just think you do. I'm not a MGTOW member but I do understand why they are fustrated, upset and just done with it all. These changes don't benifit men. You can claim they do but that probably just means that you don't understand men. The world have shifted from men having more power to being equal to women having most of the power. And it has changed women into something a lot of men don't like. A majority just deal with it since they don't really have another option if they want a semi normal life. Other though just had enough of it all together tho and said fuck it, I'll find a good life for myself with out these undesirable women who are just getting worse. That is what MGTOW is. You just don't get it. Thing is this isn't a solution as much as the start of something. It's the calm before the storm, the rallying of troops. As more men have slowly have enough of this stupidness of the modern world. It's just a matter of time till you see men have enough and backlash to how unjust they find the world. It will probably get messy. It kind of a ready is. But men as a whole are having enough of this BS, that's why MGTOW popped up in the first place. It's just a matter of time till men have had enough.