I find this amusing because he sounds exactly like a woman when saying this. What I mean by that is, he is pandering to women who have no understanding of men at all. Men do talk about feelings, women ignore them. Then they talk more and women shout them down. Dr. Warren Farrell had a convention were they were discussing male suicide and Feminists not only protested this event but called in a bomb threat and pulled the fire alarm to prevent men from talking about this. When men point out that hey, they commit suicide at much higher rates, women chime in that it doesn't matter because women make the "attempt"(not really) more then men do.
Then men point out that hey, the laws are so completley skewed in womens favor that during divorce a man has everything taken from him and he has no recourse, his own children are taken from him and used to extort money from him and his life crumbles. Then when men point out that this happens and male suicide rates double after divorce, women tell them that its their fault and that they are clearly unstable and don't deserve to have their children to begin with because they are so emotionally unstable when having their entire life destroyed simply because a woman decided to do so, and having his children taken from him.
Men have pointed out that they are treated like a paycheck by women and women tell them that they are deadbeats if they don't keep shelling out money, hence 80% of domestic spending being done by women despite them being responsible for only about 30% of domestic earnings. Then when men point out that hey, male suicide doubles after retirement because of the work demands placed on them that cause them to be stuck working their entire life away were they don't have friends or hobbies and barely got to see their families because they were expected to provide everything to every one completely selflessly while also being told they don't do nearly enough by women, and women bitch and moan about it.
When men try to express themselves women attack them regularly and if the issue is related to women its even worse where the man will be told he is worhtless, an incel, that he is just bitter and thats why he should allow women to treat him like shit because apparently his only value is in what he can provide women so he better shape the fuck up or she will abandon him.
Now look at suicides and wonder to yourself why male suicides seemed to increase along side feminism. Also ask yourself why women hate men expressing themselves yet demand they express themselves but then turn around and punish them every time they have something to say. This has nothing to do with men bottling up their emotions, this has everything to do with society and especially women forcing them to ignore their feelings because they only see them as things instead of people (hence 80% of suicides being male and 80% of homeless being male and 97% of workplace accidents and deaths being male and 98% of combat deaths both military and civilian being male etc. etc. etc.).
Aside from that condescending comment about him sounding like a woman, you do make some good points. People DO need to listen to men’s issues. Men aren’t things, ie just our providers and protectors, they’re our partners.
When you sound like a woman who is completely and totally incappable of acknowledging their role in how things are, yeah thats a bad thing. When you intentionally mislead people and place the blame on others when they don't deserve it, yes thats a bad thing.
Also your statement would have had more weight if you yourself didn't see being male as a bad thing because again, the statement itself implies that and you yourself have argued this on multiple occasions (toxic masculinity (but completely refusal to even suggest that women could in fact also have negative traits associated with femininity).
So again, he sounds like all the women who have created this problem and silenced men who try to speak out about it (because most women refuse to accept responisibility for their part in this despite raising men and by extension instilling these traits into them, choosing men and by extension what traits are most likely to result in being selected as a mate, and by actively shutting down men.).
Yet you personally have said the exact opposite before. As for being Macho, I don't know what you mean by it but chances are its stereotypical and inaccurate.
Being macho means displaying aggressive pride in one’s masculinity. Macho men are more likely to neglect their physical and mental health, be unhappier than gentlemanly/caring men, engage in unhealthy and risky behavior like drinking and driving too fast. They are also unfavorable when it comes to maintaining long term partnerships.
Yeah, thats incorrect. Yet another woman talking about how being a man is bad and how all men should act more feminine (but then bitch and moan that men trying to communicate their problems that they have is "toxic masculinity"). Males are different then women and the fact that you think that them being different makes them inherently bad and toxic is why so many men have issues, its not them its you.
There’s data to support the points I listed previously. But go ahead and ignore the advice of professionals who have studied gender dynamics and those who actually have long term success with the opposite sex, it’s not like you haven’t done that before.
No their isn't. Opinions sure, but not data. We know for an aboslute fact that men are different from women. We know that hurting men because they don't act like women as you are proposing doesn't help things either. Now if you want to pretend like reality doesn't exist go for it, but you will be wrong. I've listed off so many different sources for my claims before and you don't look at them so at this point I'm not going to even try. I can't stop you from being a sexist man hater, I can't. All I can do is hope you don't have any male offspring because they don't deserve the suffering you will inflict upon them.
Sure you have, you have stated that men have to be like women, you have stated that men acting like men is bad (here and other places). This is just a fact, you hate men you always have, always will and this is why suicide rates for men have steadily increased since the seventies when more and more women were force fed this feminist bullshit that claimes men are evil and women are perpetual victims of evil men. That men being stoic and reserved with their emotions is the same as them repressing them (those are two very different things (one acknowledges them and deals with them in an appropriate manner the other denies them and buries them)). I went along the rise of the "toxic masculinity" ideas, ones you yourself have spouted off about on more then one occasion. Again, this is fact, take it or leave it at this point I don't care.
If I hated men, I wouldn’t have a 13 year long marriage with one. But I do. I wouldn’t have made it my mission to help men and women better relate to one another. But I do. I wouldn’t encourage partnership over dying along or remaining a forever bachelorette, but I do.
I’m a relationship consultant. I call on women to qualify men more strictly, and I question certain behavior... and lower quality men don’t like it. Feminists also don’t like it because I encourage women to be more strategic about who women sleep with. I understand they don’t like it but I believe there is validity in calling certain behavior out for the bs that it is.
I recently wrote a mytake about excellent male dating coaches I think men would be wise to listen to and model after. Hi into my profile and check it out. These are the type of men I love. These are the type of men I respect.
You do hate men. You can claim to be a relationship consultant all you want, but if your unwilling to listen to men and see their side of things (as you have shown not just here but any every other encounter we have ever had), then you don't respect men, you don't care about them. Sure your married, so what? That is a rather meaningless statement, plenty of women are married who despise their husbands. Hell my grandfather was married to a woman for longer then that and now he lives with a man, so again that as a measurable metric of what you think about men is rather meaningless.
The fact is you hate men, you want men to stop being men, you want men to act in a way that YOU think they should act. You don't listen to them because you don't care. I'm sorry but this is the facts and you can lie to yourself all you want but you cannot lie to me.
So again, telling men how they should act think and feel regardless of what those men want and what those men say and what those men feel, is not caring about them, its hating them. Its kind of like a man saying he loves his wife the way she is and thats why he demands she change everything about herself and get plastic surgery and get new hobbies etc. etc. Obviously its bullshit.
No, not really. Do you seriously think you cannot know some one based upon what they themselves tell you? I mean your hear trying to proclaim you know all men, that you know me and that we should all listen to you about how WE should behave. I pointed out the flaws in that and now your going to tell me that I can't claim to know who you are based upon your words but you can know me and every man based upon nothing at all? I'm sorry but that is a poor argument.
No. Not at all. In fact I think that this way of thinking is backwards, and I think that it contributes to the problem more than people realise. I think that the people who say these kinds of things also contradict themselves a lot, don't understand the way men really tick, and don't really think deeply about it at all. They hear other people say these things, it seems logical, so they parrot it and that's all.
People especially seem not to be able to understand real cause and effect.
I think that male suicide is really caused by two things: 1) men being emasculated 2) people not really giving a shit about men
Feminists are all for encouraging women to be strong and independent. They think that women should be badasses. Why? Strong and independent people are more likely to do well in life. Yet they want to encourage the opposite with men.
Today it starts as soon as they begin school, right the way up to adulthood. This encouraging boys/men to abandon traditional ideas of masculinity, labelling that "toxic". They raise weak men as a result. Surprise surprise - weak men are less likely to be able to deal with the challenges of life, overly sensitive men are more likely to feel sorry for themselves, and are therefore more likely to kill themselves.
The strange thing is that people don't seem to see that as we've been teaching boys to abandon traditional masculinity more and more, to be more sensitive, that it's unfair to expect them to be strong and that they don't need to be, the more men have killed themselves. This is what I mean by not understanding cause and effect. If any of this were true, as our society became more liberal over time, we should see less male suicide. Instead, since the 70s the male suicide rate has doubled in comparison to female suicide. In the 70s it was 2:1 male:female, now it's 4:1.
Along with this demonisation of masculinity and this push toward androgyny, we have "female correctness". 'The future is female" right? The way women act is viewed as the "correct" way to act. The way women think is the "correct" way to think. The way women deal with problems is the "correct" way to deal with problems. The idea that if only men were more like women the world would be a better place. But we're not the same, at all. We think differently, we deal with problems differently. Trying to get men to think, act and deal with problems the way women do is a failing strategy. This should be clear from all I just said in the above paragraph.
In fact even the idea that men fake macho bullshit is mostly a bullshit idea. It's based on the idea that men and women are the same but men are holding back. They call masculinity a "mask". It's not a mask. We're just not women.
This is why we have so many of these incels and MGTOW now. Normal women don't want to date men who aren't masculine. Those men have been taught that they shouldn't have to be strong, that they should be okay with being weak, that expectations are unfair. The best thing they could do to stop being where they are would be to improve themselves, that would be the strong thing to do. But instead they feel sorry for themselves and complain that the world is unfair, because that's what they've been taught to do. Women can do that, and it works. Feminism is all about that. It doesn't work for men.
Men's problems are also not taken seriously anyway. At least the ones men care about. Feminists claim to care about men, but they only care about things like little boys playing with dolls, men wearing make up, men being stay at home husbands, men crying a lot. Anything that has to do with going against traditional masculinity. Most men don't give a shit about these things. They care more about divorce law, child custody/father's rights, how female on make abuse is dealt with, unfairness in courts. But those aren't female correct, so those things are left to the MRAs, and because they're not female correct they're labelled misogynists.
These feminists will talk endlessly about this stuff, but when men complain about things they really care about those same women (and male feminists too I guess) are often the first ones to call those men whiners and losers. On one hand they say "express your feelings, show your emotions, be okay with not being okay" and on the other hand they say "what a loser, you're just bitter because you can't get laid. Stop with your victim mentality dude".
I don't think that a victim mentality is a good thing, but if that in itself shows that they don't actually give a shit about men. They give a shit about encouraging men to act like women, and that's all.
I think there are some good things about traditional masculinity but there are also bad things. For example, we cannot have men thinking they are dominant or heads in the household anymore. That has caused feminism to rise up fast and possibly over correct the balance between men and women. My husbands father was selfish and abusing, and I’m glad he wasn’t in my husbands life. His stepfather came when my husband was 17 and tried to be the strong domineering Christian type and my husband ran away as he should have. His mom didn’t have the influence she needed because she was way too submissive to men. This does need to be corrected, but we need to lift men up as strong but partner with women, not treat women like children.
Well that's the kind of thing that makes me suspicious about feminists who talk about these things. It seems to me that again while some might be well-meaning and they say these things because they genuinely think it's a problem for men, for others it's mainly about bringing men down to raise women up while only pretending that they care about men. I think that's just how they try to sell it to men. Those kinds of people don't care if it affects men negatively, pushing their ideology comes first.
Well if they are sensing emotional pain and holding that in, then yes they should come forward and tell someone how they are feeling. Speaking up about pain, depression, suicidal tendencies is a lot more encouraging than keeping silent about it. Staying silent only hurts you more and doesn't fix the core of the problem. This is why God gave us a tongue/speech, so we can express what our emotions are telling us to others. Lack of communications never helps anyone fix anything cause you can't fix something without acknowledging it.
Yes! Men sometimes think that masculinity is all about hiding their emotions. When it comes to talking about emotions, I think you are "manning up" more if you find the courage to speak about them, even if you think that your friends might ridicule you for it.
"Suicide statistics reveal that women are roughly three times more likely to attempt suicide. Compared to their male counterparts, women show higher rates of suicidal thinking, non-fatal suicidal behavior, and suicide attempts."
"When it comes to mental illness, the sexes are different: Women are more likely to be diagnosed with anxiety or depression, while men tend toward substance abuse or antisocial disorders, according to a new study published by the American Psychological Association.
Published online in APA’s Journal of Abnormal Psychology®, the study looked at the prevalence by gender of different types of common mental illnesses. The researchers also found that women with anxiety disorders are more likely to internalize emotions, which typically results in withdrawal, loneliness and depression. Men, on the other hand, are more likely to externalize emotions, which leads to aggressive, impulsive, coercive and noncompliant behavior, according to the study."
"– The most common mental health problem in women is depression. Twice as many women experience depression in their lifetime than men. Approximately 1 in 9 women 18 and older have had at least one major depressive episode in the past year."
"Compared with men, women are twice as likely to experience PTSD. Women are more likely to have hypervigilance, feel depressed, and have trouble feeling emotions; men are more likely to feel angry and have problems with alcohol or drugs."
"Women are twice as likely as men to experience generalized anxiety disorder or panic disorder."
I don't know, should women start showing their vulnerability and stop faking their "strong independent woman" bullshit?
the reason why guys suck it up and push through is cos of how we are conditioned while growing up... I had a not so pleasant childhood... there were many times during my childhood i wished i either died or someone was able to give me the strength to fight back or i could run away... but being drugged up by an abusive mother, having a violently abusive father both physically and mentally manipulative and abusive to the point where they could convince trained professionals that they were the victims...
i can say from experience that what guys face and what they feel ok with letting out... is very different things... if we let half of what we had building up a lot of us would break completely... and much of that inside us, we have no idea how to release it as it has become a part of us and how we cope if it's gone we feel so relieved that we do not know how to react...
it wasn't until after my 3 attempts of suicide, obviously failed attempts... i actually got help... odly the partner of almost 15 years who had cheated on me (which at the time i didn't know about)... while i was trying to cope with crap at work and my gran dying... and a world of other issues going on at the time... i shut down... then while talking to a shrink i didn't know what to say, who to trust.. i mean i was so used to my parents manipulating people to make me sound like a liar or to make it sound like something in my head... i didn't know but after they got me to open up, i broke down... it felt like i had completely broken and i told them i just didn't want to fight anymore...
and yes there's been days where acting like i'm a rock in order to assure others i'm ok but in reality i'm a cat's hair away from dropping... but hold together cos switching off is less damaging to me than breaking down... the macho shit some guys do though can be a defensive measure
The meme is poorly worded, as is still panders to the "macho" type.
This is a "chicken and the egg" issue, as men will come forward if they actually have a support system. In my experience, it doesn't exist, especially for a severely depressed man, and doubly so if he lacks the (rather significant) funding required for therapy.
Men will begin to come forward once society at large stops villifying them (as I see it). Being called a rapist for being male is significant. Being simply forced to live in an uncomfortable situation and told to "man up" lacks compassion. Men, and social constructs, seem to be devoid of compassion for men.
Some of us will come forward on their own, I especially think the "worthless" and "undesirable" ones do this already, since they often reject the popular definituon of a man. However, they are ridiculed and berated, insults and threats are hurled against them to try shutting them up, and I have seen this from both women and men. The cultural norms need to change in order for men to start being heard.
Ever stop to think it was those men who were being vulnerable but spurned for doing so who were pushed further to the edge? Ever consider that the man feeling less than manly, was pushed closer to the edge? Did you consider that this man not feeling macho or whatever, rather, unworthy, is what had him walk off the edge?
To easily “masculinity” is defaulted to blame for ever negative in the world. Perhaps it is the lack of self dignity, self worth that pushes these same men over the edge. In other words, their lack of feeling “manly” any further.
Feeling worthless is not a “manly”’trait. It is same trait that makes even women successful and walking off the same edge.
Masculinity is not the problem and Mr Haig would know this if he wasn’t busy trying to stir the world into the division he presently is. Which isn’t masculine either. It is just self serving for his own self promotion to make himself appear better than everyone else... the trait of a lesser man. Equivalent to Adolf who felt lessor and stirred the the world too... and who also offed himself in the end. Pathetic.
So what about the REAL MEN, that can show vulnerability, and then, Succeed? The ones that DON'T ACCEPT defeat!! I grew up with what my dad said, and WTF with suicide? I was taught that I would get knocked down, beaten down, depending, but a REAL MAN, STANDS UP, and faces that, and fights it, and OVERCOMES THAT ADVERSITY!! Now, it seems that when life gets 'TOUGH' so many just 'Check-out' and that is BULLSHIT!! WHO gave them the idea that just 'checking out' is a solution? Yeah, I got beaten, and hit, but my dad taught to me FIGHT, and WIN!! There are winners, and Losers, and that is the state of things, and BIOLOGY!!! I fight for everything I have, and never even consider punking out, and suicide!!
@Jack9949 No worries! Shit happens and no harm done!! But what about the question, and my response as the 'me' you know, now? I'm ok with disagreeing, if we do!
I find this question in pore taste.. not cuz I don't support the men's movement... I think a man should be able to open up and v express themselves withought judgment...
What I find in pore taste is how you started with "find true strength" and "stop taking macho bullshit"
It seems obveous that you just want people to agree with your views and your not really asking a question...
If I say I don't agree with you for any reason... it immediately sounds like I'm saying I want men too be week and fake...
So although I agree with men opening up... I think this question is in pore taste cuz your not actually asking anything your forcing your views on others. At least in my opinion
No, I disagree with this sycophant. That sounds eerily similar to Ingsoc’s motto.
What he really means is that men should suppress their masculinity because it’s somehow “harmful” to men. Pure pseudoscientific drivel. How masculine a man chooses to be is none of his business. He’s acting as if masculinity is synonymous with negative traits, when masculinity isn’t synonymous with negative traits (correlation not causation). Even the most masculine men show vulnerability, so what he’s saying is also a false dichotomy.
That sounds good on paper and I agree with that statement, however the problem is society and both genders subconsciously see men as rocks and cannot be vulnerable or show emotion when things get tough because then they are seen as weak and will be shunned by both society and their peers.
This is something I struggle with and have been battling since late last year. I have thought about ending it and even came up with a plan for it, but I always remember that I would have ended life without living it to my fullest potential and true end point. And to the very few that care about me, it makes me feel like shit on the damage I would do to them by carrying out that act.
I was hiding my feelings and considering disappearing, since no matter what I do things always get worse and it's always a dead-end. I talked about this with my fiancée and it didn't get better. She wants to help and won't let me go away, but at the same time it's like I'm under house arrest and can't go anywhere on my own and have to answer regular calls from her. Talking made everything worse, it basically set back everything I was working towards and killed the remaining leeway I had.
So I'd say that talking and being vulnerable can help but only with some kind of people.
Really? Suicide is the thing that's killing most men under 50? I find that hard to believe.
And I don't support this. Like yes if you're suicidal I definitely think you should seek help.
However it almost sounds like he wants men to behave more like girls. I personally think this is what's turning men into soy boys that gets triggered by everything.
I think the idea of toxic masculinity is a bunch of BS. Bottom line is if you're suicidal get help. If you're not then there's no need to be "vulnerable."
Seeking help and showing vulnerability is two different things.
At the end of the day it's the person's choice. It's like how some people continue to eat junk food even tho it's bad for them and end up becoming obese. It's their choice to seek help and follow through.
You think that’s true of all of the rapists, murderers, pedophiles, sociopaths, narcissists, people with things like schizophrenia and bipolar? It’s not their choice. It’s their responsibility. Or else the court system will eventually deal with them as they see fit and they should.
I have been around enough people with depression in professional and in personal relationships... who thought it was fine to just ignore their issues and it created disaster. I no longer surround myself with those who are unwilling to put forth an effort. No one has to be perfect, but if I see them making no effort, I will not tolerate being around them because I know the havoc it can cause on everyone they come in contact with.
I’m saying that a large majority of crime, abuse, and toxic relationships are connected to untreated mental health issues and past trauma that has been neglected. That goes for everyone, but men are more likely to neglect their issues in the professional way that would be required to properly heal. Some attempt natural practices and some succeed with that, but I don’t think enough do.
I always acted how I wanted to in respect to, if I wanted to cry then I do so without regard towards looking less “manly.” I pet and cuddle dogs, but at the same time I love fighting until I’m bloody in the face and dying.
There’s a duality I share.
I think most men are actually the same as me, but somehow we’re led to believe otherwise.
By the way, men die from suicide MORE than women because men actually choose methods that are guaranteed to kill them on the spot.
Women attempt it more, but choose less horrible methods because they want to preserve their looks even when they’re killing them selves.
Men don’t care for such things when they’re killing themselves
does he mention how people treat us after we show our vulnerability?
if you say 'awww what a lovely kitten' some idiot came up and call you fag. so you stop showing that you love kittens.. or when you cry.. people do mock you.. when you do those things.. you end up having more problems then you winge about. its not in our best interest to show weakness. because whenever people see man having hard time.. they just mock.. or doesn't even care..
only woman have that privilage. when some girl cries on the street.. there will be some couple guys go on and try to solve what ever she has as problem..
if you do that as a man.. people will just walk pass you while taking video of you to mock later..
Now this question is interesting. It essentially assumes a correlation between forced to be macho and male suicide. However, in this day and age gender fluidity is at an all time high for acceptance so if anything I think there's a reverse correlation. Social media and other new inventions have revolutionized social hierarchies and I think that they have actually been found to increase depression and suicide not just in men.
The Meyers-Briggs personality test has 16 personality types and 8 of them have the feeling trait. Their studies have found that men and women can have all 16 of these personalities equally. Essentially what that means is for the feeling vs thinking trait specifically men are just as likely to be feeling as women are to be thinking.
Take care, Myerr-Briggs is very trendy those days, INTJ speaking^^ but that's actually a very advanced Barnum Effect, this is pseudo-science (coming from Carl Jung's psychoanalysis), just less innacurate than most woo, yet there exist scientific psychology tests that aren't so trendy but actually used clinically, like the Big 5. In MBTI, only Introversion and Extraversion are scientifically used concepts, the rest is barnum effect, so that means something, can even be accurate, but also misleading.
Other than that social medias are not making suicide less patriarcal in essence, it just releases backlash: more people are escaping strict gender roles, most young generations are deconstructing themselves faster than previous ones, and we are free on one side to be how we feel and express feelings, emotions, identity, gender; on the other side, "when the old world is dying, and the new world takes time to appear, is when the monsters arrive" that's more or less a Gramsci's quote, we are living under peak neoliberal alienation, loss of all meanings, fear of the future, crypto-facsism peaking again. We still suicide because the pressure is too high, because work is alienating, because debt, because violence, because we've not been accepted in our new identities and faced prejudice one too much time, or didn't have access to housing as queer/marginalized/poor people, not so different than white-male-poor-people that didn't deconstruct, what else than the patriarchy can be laughing evily while holding all these chains together, it's always about competing, beating others, climbing the ladder, deny our existence to a higher power, don't show feeling, don't be yourself, be dead inside till dead outside, survival of the fit enough. It's just the way it applies now, its backlash for us trying to say this once we wanna get rid of it for good, and we will at the end!
Why would I intentionally show weakness? So she can use it against me if I piss her off? So she can lose her attraction & respect for me?
Hard pass.
Everytime I have tried to be vulnerable it has bit me in the ass, not even just in sexual relationships.
"The more you cry, the less I care" = my "loved ones" when I was young.
Fine, I won't at all! I'll just deal with any troubles in private, because nobody *actually* cares about *MY* feelings. I live or die mentally by my own strength of will.
And you know what? I've grown to like it. I feel a lot less than I used to and thus have a lot less emotional turmoil. Other people who know me irl just see graceful calm almost all the time.
Bingo. Learning to process thingss internally without the need to get another person involved is EMPOWERING. It enables you to rest assured you can handle whatever comes along.
Yes, as long as you don't try to pressure people into being someone they don't want to be. Some men don't want to express their emotions for no other reason than just not finding it productive. That's the way I feel at least. It has nothing to do with "faking macho bullshit" or being afraid of looking weak, I just don't see the point in doing so. If something is making me sad, I don't want to talk about how it makes me feel, I want to talk about how to fix the problem! Otherwise, it's just a waste of time. The problem is still gonna be there after I've talked about my feelings. It's just pointless to me.
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Anonymous
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No, because it's women's demand that men show vulnerability which made men fall into it. A lot of masculinity is overcoming or minimizing hardship's emotional toll and women like it -- which makes men happy in turn and they are less likely to off themselves. When women mistakenly ask for vulnerability, men open themselves up to it and bear in in front of women, which leads to rejection, depression, and offing yourself. The whole problem is that they're *not* toughing it out anymore. It would be wonderful if women were interested in true emotionality and vulnerability in men, but they aren't, it makes them uncomfortable. They mistake the level of vulnerability they want to see for "true" vulnerability. But true vulnerability, is desperation, weakness, hopelessness, fury, anguish. They don't want to see that shit. They want a sprinkling of vulnerability to taste -- not the full dose.
I’ve only had issues with men who had a problem with these things. It was only when I married the man who showed his emotions and vulnerability that I had a long lasting success.
I know that some men pretend to be extra tough but those people are idiots. That being said, those aren't the guys who are committing suicide. Men commit suicide for other reasons, mostly work or finance related, other times love and relationship issues. These are the usual causes of mental pain for men.
I don't see how being soft and showing weakness wills solve the problem? what so that more people have the chance to hurt you? WHat a load of bollocks. Who comes up with this bs anyway, when a man shows emotions he just gets attacked or ignored. No one cares. Women lose attraction for you. Other people think of you as a burden instead of someone reliable. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar and doesn't live in the real world. If you have good friends then you can share your problems with them, same if you have supportive parents. But expecting comfort from society at large is laughable. We do not have p**sy privilege we need to understand that.
Yet go anywhere on that same site and u will find many that claim this but also use it as a weapon on others male and female even when it just comes to relationships I got so lucky finding a women that I could open upto but this is something many of my friends don't have the luxury
There was a lot less suicides when men were even more masculine in the past. Opening up never helped anyone. Every time I opened up or made myself vulnerable it back fired on me big time. Men are supposed to be stoic.
Men need to Man Up and realize they can take control of their destiny, by working hard, making the right choices, and not listening to women about feelings and such.
If you don’t want to listen to women’s feelings that’s fine, but just know that there are consequences to that mentality and women don’t have to put up with you either.
You misunderstood. Women when they ask men to open up is a bad thing, they just want leverage and to see a man weak. Women need their feelings heard. Men dont.
How is that violent? I just said he probably agrees with you on everything (Which is a simpy thing to do) haha
how often does your husband "Make himself vulnerable" ? I bet not much. He might tell you his problems, but he has a game-plan to solve them. Its not about macho-bullshit, its about being a man. A strong man just focuses on overcoming problems. not opening up about it.
Women think they want an emotional man, but that kinda of guy sucks!
It’s not my intention to discredit your point, it’s just that I don’t see it as black and white as you seem to. Men can still be men while being vulnerable when the time is necessary. That doesn’t mean he’s constantly sobbing and being weak. It just means he’s human. He can still get himself together and find a solution.
Yes, this is one of the biggest problems in our society and I'm so glad someone brought it up. Women are always told it's okay to cry, but men get teased and made fun of for sharing their emotions, we have shit too ladies. We are forced to bottle that up and keep it in and it kills us inside, and that's a societal stigma that needs to change. Talking shit out is absolutely needed and we aren't allowed to do that according to society. Its ridiculous, and we need to acknowledge that and fix it.
Showing you vulnerability is showing where people should stick the knife. The sad truth is when your a man you can't be vulnerable because people will only take advantage of your weaknesses. When your a man no one cares about your wellbeing except yourself.
Only in so much as his wellbeing will benefit those people. For instance a wife might care for a sick husband but only so he will continue to work and bring home money
That's not as easy as you think. Women are very good at talking about things that bother them but for literally centuries men have had it forced in their heads by most of society that we are to be strong and never show any weakness. Which makes it even harder for men, who have much less understanding of any feelings let alone their own, to open up
and it's even harder because women say they want a man in touch with his emotions but if he really talks to her about something that's really bothering him more often than not she looks at him in a different way... very VERY rarely this change in how they look at you in a good way
I find that I’ve better bonded with any man who opens up and talks about watts bothering him. I probably wouldn’t have married my husband if he refused to do that.
Ladies can get away with it to some extent, but guys should never let anyone see them acting on negative emotions. You gotta learn to carry your own water. Guaranteed any woman you start trying to use an your emotional tampon is never going to look at you the same again. Have some dignity guys.
Unfortunately I think that post is just another empty cliche. Unless you REALLY know and trust the person I think it is ill advised for a man to show vulnerability or open up about weaknesses/insecurities. Ultimately most people won't care/sympathize with you and the moment you do/say anything someone else disapproves of they won't hesitate to use the vulnerabilities you opened up about against you.
These statements now are good to listen or talk but true fact is if a man shows he is vulnerable I bet women will loose respect for the guy take advantage of him abuse him and emotionally manipulate both genders will call names they would definitely say don't be a pussy be a man. It's not as simple as as that statement and some most men are macho it's like trait or core personality they can't change that it's just how it is I guess
I agree with "stop faking macho bullshit", or faking anything for that matter. Everybody is vulnerable whether they hide it, or not. And I'm pretty sure that MY idea of "manning up" is not the typical one, so I'll leave that alone. :)
I believe that balance is necessary. Men do need to be tough, but they also need to be able to open up when they are really hurt. That will only happen when the world starts to listen to them.
German footballer Robert Enke never got over the loss of his 6 year old daughter Lara in 2006; he never talked about his problem because then they would have taken away his newly adopted daughter from him. He killed himself in 2009. German footballer Andreas Biermann was affected by Enke's death and talked publicly about his own struggle with depression, and his career suffered as a result. He killed himself in 2014.
Yeah for sure. There is absolutley nothing wrong with being emotional sometimes, and being vulnerable.
In reality we ALL are vulnerable in some way or another. People who don't think they are vulnerable (male or female), are only pulling the wool over their own eyes, and are in for a rude awakening.
This is such crap. People, in general, are all different. Being masculine, or "macho" isn't bullshit, and for a lot of men that is their default- it is part of who they are. So do disregard that is to disregard all those who are like that. Others are more emotionally open and vulnerable, and while that is in itself a form of strength it is also not the only measure of it.
I wish people would live their fucking lives and just leave one another alone.
If women were SEXUALLY attracted to and respected sensitive men this would be less of an issue. But most women don’t want that. Quit trying to say otherwise because talk is cheap.
Freud is bullshit pseudo-science that's been saying absurd bullshit over scientific psychology for more than a century, young girls and teens are crazy about k-pop effeminate boys, anime effeminate guys, yaoi effeminate guys, even the top, non-threatening models in a nutshell.
Is it most women? Hell no, of course it's still rare. I'm sorry for you that's less of your demographic, but in fact for being into circles of kinky very left-wing and queer women, women who share these ideas can be up to their 40s even if the younger the most, and these are the avant-gardes of where you'll be respected for what you are. It's not saying you're wrong, but saying freud is woo and you can act yourself to look for the social circles that will allow you to be real.
Many feminists will deny all you say while it's absolutely true and we live this everyday, women
Vulnerability doesn’t sexually arouse women, I’ll give you that. But not everything a man does has to. Women aren’t required to be sexually attracted to everything you do, especially if it makes you a better person, regardless.
Funny thing is that I’m recently chatting up a younger girl on a dating app who says she wants a “ k-pop effeminate boys, anime effeminate guys” but when she dated them they were “too submissive”. I’m like “well yeah no shit what do you expect”. I swear they constantly want the best of both worlds.
@MzAsh vulnerability not only doesn’t sexually arose women but it TURNS THEM OFF. Period. The only time it’s appropriate is if a guy had a recent huge accomplishment and while talking about it he can bring up the struggles he went through. He has to end it on a positive note. He can’t just sulk and expect people to listen to his problems like women do. Women often just want men to listen to their problems and not try to fix them. Vice versa makes women want to vomit and recoil in disgust.
Men need to get more help IN PRIVATE. I get psychotherapy and I don’t tell anyone about it. If we want to get into a romantic relationship with someone on our par then that stuff has to remain hidden. Sad but true.
Well a man who won’t open up to me is not someone I want to be around. My husband knows this and my clients do too. Either we work together or go elsewhere.
But was he that way when you first started dating? And how often does he open up to you?
You are one of the more mature women on GAG. I’ve read some of your other posts and comments. But I usually see different.
If women want gender equality than it has to be a top way street. For example I sometimes get paranoid about metoo bullshit. Women say they want to be dominated in the bedroom and want a forward man. Some do this “no yes” bullshit. Thoughtful guys like myself take that as face value. I’m less aggressive especially in the beginning because I have to make sure it’s consensual or I could have my entire life destroyed.
Women need to get used to that fact that some guys are going to be less “dominate” unless they specifically tell the guy it’s okay (and develop a safe word when it isn’t). I’m chatting with a younger woman about this right now on a dating app (she’s real we video chatted too). She’s telling me that she wants to be dominate and aggressive. Well that’s great and all but at the same time I get nervous. I have had women wig out when I made a move at the wrong time before.
Haha, I feel you^^ Yeah, most of my dating pool are bi/pansexual switches, exclusive monogamy is respectable but also gains to be made only one of the many options so people get actually freer to get the best of both worlds, not expect the same in one guy (or girl) :) Dommes who didn't started as subs or aren't switches till the start nearly don't exist, I've seen many fetlife profiles of dommes that would domme partners and switch only for main life partner, or various girls pretty attacted into both extremes I and a virile alpha can be :)
@Kittyboy the 21yr old girl I’m talking to is bi and a virgin. But she has been very communicative.
She knows my age and background. Haven’t lied anything. I will say it’s interesting. It’s been a very long time I’ve spoken to a girl like this romantically. But she is a digital arts major. She both loves her world and is depressed by it.
Just a FYI women do have sex with sensitive guys but they won’t stay attracted to them for long. These have need to have something else going for them (looks, talents, mysterious, etc). I got laid quite a bit in the past because I’m tall and athletic. But being sensitive was like having a 50lbs steel weight tied to my leg when it came to success in relationships. Sometimes I wished I was born a sociopath.
"tall and athletic", mixed with "sensitive" is another shitty issue, like black men tired to be always expected to be overdominant and overmasculine... now, you're probably fitting to be the strong knight sub in a monogamous FLR if you turn full sub eventually haha :D This is what monogamous 40-something dommes looking to settle are into from what I've seen^^ can't help mor, masculinity isn't my world but good luck to you :)
My husband didn’t open up to me at first but he did after he knew he could trust me, which is understandable. I’ve found that it helps when I open up to him first and he naturally reciprocates. He usually feels better afterwards just to get some things off his chest. But I don’t force it.
About the girls saying they want to be dominated in bed but then late pull back, I’d assume they’re young and are parroting what they think what guys want to hear. Hollywood has sold the idea that is sexy, that’s what girls are supposed to want and guys are supposed to want to hear. But really, they might just mean that they want him to be sexually initiative, not lazy and lay there like a dead fish. But all women want to reserve consent at all times. So you’re really having sex on her terms, because she’s the one saying hey I want you to do this.
This is the very place vanilla people can learn from our consent culture, without getting necessarily kinky. If sex and the D/s dynamic is clearly clarified and not just default, there's room for agency and listening on both parties, and leaves room to explore if she wants the initiative taken and a couple buttslaps or if she enjoys hyper rough sex with humiliation and slave training, or how to be brought to the second with agency and no actual fear.
@Kittyboy I’m going to tell her I want a safe word for stop. Then I’ll unleash both in texting and if we do meet up... in the bedroom. But the second she says that safe word I stop.
⚫At some moments men should learn and adopt trushing the syndrome of Manchu man. Not only because it makes you vulnerable to suicide thoughts and some shitty thoughts. Two women do love men who tend to feel a bit weak open emotional, it really turns them on, so it is highly a turn off. So at times we can be overly macho men, bt also live a space for emotional issues.
Sounds like. some bullshit right there. Land of pussifed men. If men become a bunch of pussy, they are better off turning the man card and get a box of maxi pads
Women say they want this, believe they want this but they really do not. They lose respect for him as a romantic partner when he shows weakness. Any guy will tell you that is how it works out no matter what women claim.
Wouldn't that be nice. It doesn't even have characteristics they want people (girls) to have. I've heard women refer to them as insecure who believe they are showing strength when fear/insecurity is the primary reason
I don’t feel any less for a man that can show his vulnerability. I don’t feel any more for them either. They are just people expressing an emotion at any time it’s necessary.
You do realize lots of women won't date men who cry in front of her or are emotional. Also some women intentionally try to get men to fight eachother or defend her honor. Ps. Those women are called crazy 😂
Cherokee, you’re right. Nathan, why would a man want a woman who wouldn’t want him to show emotion in the first place? Men need to place better standards with that kind of thing.
@nathanp97 I have literally never met a woman that won’t date a man who cries. I’m not saying they don’t exist, but I’m gonna assume they’re pretty rare and they’re pretty dumb so fuck those women. Men are human beings and human beings have emotions, and we need to be able to express those emotions. It’s literally bad for your health to bottle it all up.
Exactly. All human beings have emotional needs and need outlets for their emotions. No one should date anyone that tries to deny them the opportunity to express their emotions in a HEALTHY manner.
@DCooper If that’s your naturally reaction, and that’s what feels best for you then that’s perfectly fine. But a lot of dudes are conditioned to being stoic against their own feelings. A lot of dudes refuse to cry because they were taught to “Man up” or that “men don’t cry”. Clearly lots of men aren’t getting the emotional outlets and care that they need. The suicide rate speaks for itself.
I'm not saying not to process and deal with the negative emotions; just to keep them under wraps such that they don't show when it isn't appropriate to let them. Of course guys have to process that stuff. We just do it away from people who shouldn't see us like that.
@DCooper A lot of dudes don’t have a safe space to express that stuff. There’s so many dudes whose only support system is their girlfriend/wife, and when they don’t gave a partner then they have no one. Women typically are able to build large support groups. We talk about stuff with friends, family, partners, and we’re typically more open to therapy. Without a safe space a lot of people end up bottling up their emotions waiting for an “appropriate” time to express them. I’m not saying you have to pour your heart and soul out to everyone, I’m just say we should create safer environments and cultures that allow EVERYONE male and female to feel comfortable expressing themselves and building support systems.
Here’s the thing. Men are conditioned to demonstrate strength, not weakness. It’s evolutionary. We need to be on top of our A-game instead of resorting to victim mentality. That’s not how humankind survived after all.
Seriously the “macho bullshit” isn’t why men kill themselves. It’s societies complete disregard for men as people. We have no resources, funding, support, shelters, parental rights, etc. Society treats us like we are disposable.
If society cared for men the way they care for women. There would be a shit ton less suicide. Give us the same funding, resources, protection, parental rights, etc.
Are you sure every man wants all that? Many traditional conservative men pride themselves on being the pioneers for protection and resources in the family. They’d rather be at work than stay at home with the kids which hinders their parental authority and ultimately, rights in courts.
being proud of being a man doesn’t mean we want society to treat us like shit. We take pride in our work and our ability to provide and protect, but that doesn’t mean we are ok with society taking everything from us including our children to give to the female. Not funding mens health issue, not giving us shelters or resources for victims of women, providing support for males the way they do women when it comes to homelessness, mental health, etc.
That’s understandable. There is a lot of work by men that goes uncredited and under appreciated. I will say though they There are domestic crisis centers that do house men. Many men don’t talk about it and some never seek help when they need it.
Yes there are housing shelters for “anyone” but there are little to no male only shelters for those males who need them for protection from violent partners, from being put out on the street after a broken relationship, etc... like there is for women. Even though women are the ones who make out like a lottery winner in a divorce.
Yeah but how about we not get kicked down even further when we do show vulnerability? That's why men don't do it because more people want to mock them or shame them than help them.
For the most part I do agree. I think playing the victim is way worse than toughing it out though. Somewhere in between is best. Most men are too far on one side and most women too far on the other, we need to both find the middle
Mental health does not have a gender, pour more money into mental health schemes and we can begin to tackle suicide of every gender/race/religion etc more vigorously.
Back in the day when? I mean which year? when there was a world war going on? yes people are less likely to kill themselves when they died in a war, or due to crimes and poverty after the war :)) Another observation, suicide registration is a complicated medical and legal process, so it's pretty hard to tell the "suicide percentages" in, say, late Victorian period. After all it's kinda hard to tell how many suicides are there if those suicides are not reported lol
Guys have to deal with internal shit. Usually if we vocalize it out will be socal suicide because men are messed up in the head more then women understand.
The problem is trying to conform to norms which are unnatural to those guys. Each man should follow his own path. If that includes the above, then yes.
Yeah, because when you keep your vulnerabilities locked inside they find some way to manifest themselves and all too often do so in a manner (appropriately) described as "toxic masculinity".
Finding that person is easy. Just google local therapists. Paying them is the harder part. Then there's the fact that after you pay the therapist, you realize you'd be in a better state of mind if you had spent that money on a few lap dances at the local ballet.
I'm not the one with anything to cry about, or any vulnerabilities to open up and show; so I'm not the one with anything to work out with a therapist. But in concept I agree with your statement.
Only low quality women are turned off by vulnerability. Smart women who are high quality know how to appreciate a man who balances vulnerability with masculinity.
... the right place to do show it. Imagine you ending up getting a flat tire, is spending all your time throwing a fit about it going to fix the problem? No, you can be annoyed but you can still fix it and you can always throw it later if you don’t get over it while fixing the issue.
Then probably you will find handful of women, it has nothing to do with good or bad it's just some predefined expectations women resent such men I know for sure, if not by luck it will take an eternity to search such women
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