Three years ago a girl who he was interested in for a long time rejected him basically because he would push her so much to date him after she divorced.
He never really got over this and randomly brings it up all the time with no context, even three years later. And the conversation about her would go on for half an hour.
Yesterday some other girl gave him her number but apparently she blocked him for some unknown reason.
Now he is raging about woman and blaming them for everything bad in his life. He keeps talking about how wants to get revenge on the girl who rejected him three years ago. He kind of also has a somewhat unhealthy obsession about guns so I don’t want him to do something stupid and take this revenge thing too far.
I told him he needs to focus on self improvement and eventually it would be easier to find a girlfriend but he doesn’t seem to listen.
Here is a sample of our conversation.
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1 y
Anyone else?
How do I get my friend out of this anti woman incel/mgtow revenge mindset?
I'd say I somewhat fell into it in college after false accusations followed by an emotionally-abusive relationship. One thing that got me in was the concept of the "Alpha Male" from some PUA books a friend gave me. (He didn't know anything about them. He was just wanting to get me some self-help material after all the drama).
Men's issues sucked me in the rest of the way. I hopped in when it was mostly therapeutic and empathetic. The Good Men Project was one, and luckily helped keep me moderated.
But the whole "Alpha Male" thing kept me stuck. Feeling like I wouldn't matter unless I was the best. Feeling like I had to be the dominance machine women feared, because they could only respect what they feared.
What started the spiral OUT of it was actually Christopher Ryan's book, "Sex at Dawn", which taught me about Bonobos, the fallacy of the alpha male, and most importantly provided a lot of evidence and reasoning for it.
I'm not sure this would help with your friend, though, because I'm not sure what the root of his problem is. I think the rise of these groups come from a combination of the epidemic of male loneliness, and the fact that men don't have a lot to turn to for addressing their emotional issues or insecurities. So PUA writers say "I acknowledge your problems. Here's what you need to do to fix yourself." and then give them advice that you either have to sacrifice your morals for, or feel like you have to give up on love because you're unwilling to be what they are saying you have to be. I do think therapy would go a long way.
I can mention a few things that helped me as well. But they might only help once you're out of the rabbit hole. So they might only be good to keep you out.
- I tried to develop "guy crushes", if possible. Sounds weird, but finding a guy attractive helps you understand what makes a guy attractive rather than just muscles and dominance. Preferably a guy known for sensitivity or a quirky personality.
- After the abusive relationship, I met her ex, and a guy she had originally falsely accused. (Long story). I'm actually still friends with the latter guy. From there, if a girl turned me down for another guy, I learned to prioritize seeing the GOOD things about the other guy. If you only see the bad, you see a world in which women prefer assholes. If you see the good, you see good characteristics being rewarded. I feel like that's the important bit. Understanding that good traits are in fact good. That being good is its own strength and requires its own sort of toughness. It's something I wish women would address more because it carries so much more weight coming from them.
- I got to the core of what my lack of relationships was. Basically trying to do so free of judgment. People assume that means "maybe you're just an asshole" and it seems like twisting the knife, but that's not the idea here.
In my case, my issue was simply that I didn't get out much. I also found out some girls liked me in high school, but I hid my sexuality so much they thought I was disinterested or put-off. I thought I was shy, but I just wasn't interested in pop culture or sports. Among groups I share interests with, I'm plenty outgoing and expressive.
That is to say, I wasn't "failing" at much. It wasn't that I was "too nice". It wasn't that I "wasn't aggressive enough", or "cared too much about her feeling safe". The positive traits I aspired to weren't the problem. It was simply lack of exposure, and simply didn't have much in common with the people I was around.
I can continue with some of the myths spread, but this is a long post.
"Nice guys finish last". This referred to baseball and was meant to inspire getting serious. The goodness of men is almost never unappealing. Take any guy and make them nicer, and it just makes them better.
"Girls only like assholes". Perhaps the assholes get more one-night stands. But they aren't the most appealing.
If you had a loud bar with Gaston, Keanu Reeves, and Hugh Grant or something, who would get the most female attention? Probably Gaston. Because women like insufferable egotistical douchebags? Probably not, and why would you want a girl who likes that anyway?
It's because Gaston is drawing a shit ton of attention to himself. He might force the most attention to himself, but then 95% of the girls could find it obnoxious. 5% of the girls in the room could like him. But because he drew so much attention to himself, those 5% know right where to find him. Meanwhile 90% of girls could like Keanu or Hugh. Specifically BECAUSE they aren't obnoxious douches. Going home with a rando =/= desirability. The problem there is that it's a bar. It rewards that sort of nonsense. Go to a wine-tasting or art exhibit, and it gives Keanu or Hugh a chance to shine.
"Be a confident guy". This doesn't mean "become a guy you can be confident about", this means "know who you are, and intentionally be that person."
Girls might like Jude Law because he has a silky-smooth accent, is polite, and dresses in a lot of suits. I also know a lot of girls who love Bill Burr, and people love him for exactly all the opposite reasons.
If Jude Law tried to be like Bill Burr, he would come off as an insufferable angry asshole. If Bill Burr were all polite and tidy, he would be boring af and would never have his own show. Neither is improved by trying to be the other.
I don't think girls really disliked "nerds" as portrayed in 80's movies. It's that the "nerds" were portrayed as being ashamed of it. Like they wanted to be someone else, but got "stuck" as nerds. Confidence is about leaning into your unique characteristics, including what you regard as flaws. Basically show the world you MEANT to end up here, and you will feel more self-actualized.
I think honestly your poor friend needs a therapy, since he has some serious issues on women and on self esteem. Honestly speaking, I think you can help him by trying to help him getting his shit together… maybe trying to propose him to go exercise together with a smile, or to meet for lunch and go eat something healthy. He is someway into a depressive form, so he needs your help and his way to refuse to self improve is a sign of his need… So I suggest you to not try make him reason on what he says but try only to distract him… don’t give weight about his venting, with time he maybe will comprehend his rage is only a vent and is due only to his frustration. As you said, he should focus on self improvement, you can help him as I said above and to recognise his good results… try cheer him for what good he does. Encourage him to be gentle and polite with people… you can give him an example by helping him, for example, buying groceries or preparing food. Remember… always tell him things with a sincere smile, don’t judge him and don’t give weight to things he says when venting, when he has his rage attacks, try distract him by proposing something cool to do, something he likes or complimenting him for something he achieved.
This is the only help I can give you, obv your friend is in need of a professional assistance, but to achieve results with an assistance there needs the will to change. You can only give him the possibility to have a positive approach to life.
Your friend needs professional therapy. And probably has much deeper problems than he's telling you about.
His words sound like deep rooted self-loathing and a complete lack of faith in himself.
As a friend, you're doing everything you can and should. But he needs professional level therapy to get himself better - this is way deeper than what you ought to take on as a friend.
Do your best to get him open to talking to a therapist. If you've gone, consider opening up about some of your breakthroughs to try to encourage him.
That he's still obsessed and WANTS the hatred of this girl's family from years ago, that's... Not healthy or normal.
Does your friend hang out with other people at all? Maybe getting him out in co-ed group settings with no pressure to date and no expectations on any of that could help him experience just regular friendship with girls.
But honestly, I would keep yourself and the women you know safe as a first priority. I haven't met a single "former incel" who's ever truly recovered from their mindset. I dated two and the first was never able to manage his depression (the origin of his inceldom), and the second has gone full incel after I broke up with him for lying to me for years about his immigration plans (which is weird because he literally has access to kink communities and friends with benefits? But he still acts like an incel now? Despite not being a virgin and definitely being able to get with women? It's weird and I don't get it).
Recommend therapy, but be prepared to cut this one loose. Some people really do not change.
You are offering him solutions but you need to first try to validate his emotions so he feels heard and comforted. Tell him none of these women were worth of his time cause if they were they would choose him. That these are only 2 women and there are plenty of great women out there. That you know its hard but that so many people struggle with relationships and even ones that have them are often in shitty and abusive ones. That other people dont have it that much better as it seems. Try to change his perspective, I woould say theraphy but i dubt he would want to go to one so if you are a close friend you may try to be one if you really want to help him. Dont tell him just lose waight or just get a new girl or just dont care cause he obviously cannot do that and its frustrating. Try to make him focus on things he likes to do like hobbies and such. Dont tell him "dont think about that but do you hobby" rathar invite him to do his hobby or something. Try to make him feel better by doing things with him that he likes. Tell him you care about him and you hate to see him this way. And that he should never lose himself over anything. Go with him to blow steam like w playing sports or smashing things, this helps with getting rid of anger and frustrations.
Well, if he is this far down the hole it will a tough task to pull him out. Does he have other friends or family he is close with or can vent like this too? My suggestion would be to host some kind of intervention like meeting with those individuals and ha e him present or encourage him to go to some form of group therapy or counseling so he can get himself back on track with the help of others.
My concern is you saying he has a fascination of guns and given his current state, I am curious, does he have any in his possession as of now or did he say anything about buying them? Has he expressed any violence against others or himself?
Bottom line, if he is this hellbent on this one woman and now this one that blocked him after giving her number to him (I assume he either blew up her phone or offended her in some way that made her uncomfortable if she blocked him and he hasn't said why).
He needs to identify his insecurities, flaws and better his self esteem. Before he even thinks of dating at this point. Get his ass outside and interacting with other human beings instead of being stuck in an echo chamber of reaffirming toxicity.
You're a true friend to have his back and urging him to lead a better life.
My mom doesn't love my dad and they aren't divorced either. She'd still not date around. Your friend would find fault even in a loyal woman such as her, let alone others. Divorces can be very emotional exhausting. And a divorced person has the right to reject you just as much as the next person.
I'm sure the girl he went out with slowly realised he's a dimwit loser (no offense, but it is what it is). This kind of behaviour is very unattractive and toxic and most of all — self fulfilling — slowly all women would start to resent him, and he'd say "see I told u they're biches"
I mean if he's the type to force women to give them number obviously she was going to block him, that's not surprising...
I think the best would be for him to see a psy but I doubt he would want to do it, maybe you know a girl that would be ok to go on a date with him or something? But anyway he should really focus on self improvement like you said or just spend time doing his hobbies
Incel and MGTOW are two different things dude. Incel is involuntarily celibate. You just don’t have good enough social skills to get pussy, you hate women for it. MGTOW is an idea that encourages men to not focus on women for happiness, and encourages personal growth and advocates against disadvantages of being a man, such as women assaulting men but men can’t defend themselves without being seen as a woman beater.
Word you’re looking for is misogynist. Just a woman hater, believes they’re inferior, or play into stereotypes.
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Anonymous
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1 y
A true friend wouldn't be trying to change someone just to fit his or her own opinions/perspective. You don't sound like a true friend, to me. Best you can do is offer your opinion and if he doesn't change, then either support him or stop being his friend. But it's rather lame to make him see your liberal point of view.
But I know you don't want to hear that or admit you could be wrong. So here's an easier version for you. "I told him he needs to focus on self improvement" That's it! Just leave it at that. Say nothing more. Saying "and eventually it would be easier to find a girlfriend" is just pissing in his face and feeding him what - to him - is complete BS. He'd probably resent you for "lying" to him and you're still pushing your beliefs on him. So either help him and let him sink or swim, or don't. But don't push him to have to see things in your blue pill point of view.
You need to say to him straight up "bro, I think you need to talk to a professional about your issues and anger issues, I can't help you and you're not listening to reason. You're quite frankly going off the deep end and I'm not going to enable your behavior. When you get your shit together we can go have a beer"
Buy a book called Mode One and make sure he reads it.
It's about what happens when a guy can't get woman and how the frustration can make you into a bitter person. It talks about letting go of the past and offers a better mentality than woman suck because they don't want me.
Slap the idiot across the face, really hard. Then call the police. The guy is not only a nutcase, but potentially dangerous as well, especially if he has access to guns.
needs to grow up if he has guns you might want to let the police know don't be like everybody and just turn their heads not thinking anything will happen, he needs to grow up and get theopathy
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