Ballroom Dancing: My Ideal Model for a Relationship

[benthurber]

To me? Ballroom dancing is the most beautiful and sublime expression of a masculine/feminine relationship. It's the metaphor I reach for whenever I try to discuss what I believe to be the perfect harmony between the energies a man and a woman can bring together.

The man is the leader. This does not mean he is bossy and controlling, this means he is decisive for his lady. Never does she have to stand there confused and frustrated with a response of, "I dunno, whatever you want to do is fine." His role is to look ahead and decide; to take in all available information and provide direction. His will is not dictated by brute force, but it's communicated with a clear invitation.

The lady is the follower. In many ways, she holds the most power in this dynamic. While it is the leader's job to provide a clear direction precisely when it's needed, it is the lady's job to decide. It is her choice, her option to follow the lead and to what degree. She may very well fight and vie for the lead and for control, but there is something off about two people trying to lead; there are no ships with two captains. As the lady learns to trust the leader, she becomes able to follow him. And in trusting him and learning to follow his lead, she becomes comfortable in following him. There's less bumping and jostling about. The stuttering movements of thier dance slowly melt into a seamless glide.

This glide is not the fault of the lady alone, for a man cannot lead well if he is ignoring his lady. The stiff frame he holds with his arms begins to soften (but never fade) as he senses his lady's willingness to follow. His lead is able to be smoother and gentle because he knows his lead is respected. He begins to truly listen to their connection. The frame he holds is not a prision, but is like a picture frame, and his lady is his picture. While it is his natural job to protect her in all that he does, it is also his role to allow her to flourish. To provide her with the perfect outline to her feminine beauty, spilling into the world around them.

Within the frame is not restriction, but opportunity. Every lead is a chance to attack the space provided instead of passively falling into it. And a good leader will provide as many opportunites as possible, for what is an empty picture frame to behold? And what is a vibrant image if it's never shown? With time, she has total possesion of her leader's attention. While he looks outward into the world, his mind is nearly always on her. But it's not enough that he should be the only one looking out. As they compliment one another's strengths, so must a leader and follower exchange roles where they overlap.

A man cannot see dancing backwards, but in this time his lady is dancing forwards. She is able to trust his directions to get them through, but she is not passive when danger is present. She effectively communicates what it is that the leader cannot see. While he could easily barrel through and ignore her, he does so with the responsibility for the outcome.

Sometimes miscommunication happens or the lady does something the leader doesn't expect. The dance becomes clunky if the man stands there and stammers. But an experienced leader takes it all in stride. He still keeps up with his lady and makes whatever happens work until the communication smoothes over and they couple returns to moving together as one.

As the couple becomes one, the lines that divide them fade away. Whenever there is a mistake or collision, they both appologize and continue to dance. For it can no longer be the fault of one over the other, their unity celebrates success and comforts one another in failure.

I definitely can't wait to meet my dance partner-for-forever. Because you can bet it's going to be the dance-of-a-hundred-lifetimes if I have any say in it. ;)

[redeyemindtricks]

You're probably thinking of the tango. Yes?

Dude in the picture's got some weird hand positioning. Hopefully they caught him at some odd intermediate stage. Like, I dunno, right before a turn. Or something.

When my husband and I were getting to know each other, he did pretty much everything with ridiculous perfection. But I was especially impressed when he took me to a place that did tango lessons.
Impressed, because I am 3.5" taller than him, and I wear high heels everywhere. This means 9" taller than him. Nope, didn't bat an eye. Led me around that floor like nobody's business.

I mean, ok, he is actually a dancer, so there's that, LOL. (Not ballroom-- he was in male revues, and other modern/solo performance stuff, like Stomp) But even the instructor, who was a professional tango instructor from Argentina, was a bit awkward with me at first. Because so tall.

The tango is sexy.

And yep, I get your point perfectly. The woman is every bit as responsible as the man for the harmony of the performance.

In fact, the analogy goes further than that. It's a really really good analogy.

If people can't get the dance to go smoothly, one of the best things to try is to reverse the roles -- have the man dance the female (follower) part, and vice versa. (If he is not even willing to try this, THAT'S THE PROBLEM RIGHT THERE, lol.) After literally dancing through the routine in each other's footsteps, there's a lot more understanding there.

But, yeah... This is one of those articles that people aren't gna get, unless they already get it. Ya know.

--

The writing is strangely inconsistent with itself. It kinda looks like one person didn't write the whole thing. Like you wrote parts of it, but copy/pasted some other parts. Not really looking for guilty/not guilty, just sayin. Maybe you just wrote different parts of it at different times. Or wrote part of it on a phone, and part on a computer.

[benthurber]

I was sort of flowing between waltz and tango, but mostly waltz.

Sadly, the dude in the picture is me from a few years ago... *shame* It was a tango and we're going into the third step of a promenade basic. She was the head instructor's top competitor, but she only ever danced with him at that point. She's a great dancer and trained well to do what she does, but has a tendency to overdo everything because she was never trained in followership. It's wild to explain, but lead her around the floor once and you would see what I mean.

It's awesome that you and your husband dance. I'm mildly envious. ;)

I do very much agree with switching roles to figure it out and I'll request it often from instructors. Feeling what I'm doing vs what's needed works so much better for me than back leading.

[benthurber]

As for the writing, it was like midnight or something. I was trying to flow back and forth between his side and her side for some depth of writing (yay literary criticism!) I felt it fit what I was trying to get at more than just going for what would be like two separate lists.: (Guys: Yadda yadda yadda) (Girls: Yadda yadda yadda)

I blame the limitations of communication. Trying to give a holistic answer when we function in linear communication.

[redeyemindtricks]

Ugggh literary criticism.. oh no you di'n't. LOL.
I am a writer, among many other things, and I really hate literary criticism. Despise it. Off topic here, but could explain if you want.

I was actually gna guess the picture was you and an instructor. Because her posture and stance are weirdly perfect. And yours... well, aren't. LMAO I just didn't wanna say it first, because at heart I am a sweetheart. Really. A sweetheart, to everyone except fake-ass fake posers who are fake.

He's a dancer. I'm an awkward giant nerd with two size 11.5 left feet. I am not smooth, with anything except words.

You say midnight like that's late, or something. You're not even thirty! Shit. Just wait. Wait. Until you're 50 and it's like "aw shnap, I totally burned the 9:30PM oil yesterday". LOL.

I wish I could move like a tango dancer. Nope. I move like a nine-year-old boy.

[benthurber]

Lol explain away!

Yeah, I don't wanna disparage the lady in the picture because she's great at what she does, but we don't seem to mesh well. Also, I don't want to pretend I'm all that and a bag of chips on the dance floor, 'cause I ain't. It's just that trying to lead her for me is like trying to maneuver a Top Fuel dragster through an autocross course, it's all I can do to hang on. So my posture goes to heck. :(

[redeyemindtricks]

Scroll down to the boy comments here:
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../q1845659-can-someone-read-my-story-tell-me-what-they-think-of-it
It's in there, somewhere. The literary criticism thing. Aaahhhh such bullshit. Lol

Yes, dancing is teamwork. A top expert and a beginner don't make a great team... Shocker! (:

[benthurber]

Lol I see what you mean about your opinion on literary criticism. (Though you kind of wrote a myTake on it, haha!)

Not really a skill level mismatch as much as it is we're trained differently. My training focused on being technically correct (I told my instructor I wanted to beat open level dancers with bronze level patterns.) She was pushed to competition as fast as possible. Her pro is incredible at compensating for followers and they had a routine. But when she and I worked together with an instructor (who was her Pro's wife) all the technical holes she suffers from came out. So now she's kind of stuck in finding a partner. She fits her pro, but no one else. But as a dancer, she truly is amazing to watch.

[redeyemindtricks]

That's a mytake? Dude, I wrote that with one hand, while on the freeway. I didn't say that.
I said that.
Lol.

But you have to, like, find pictures and stuff. That would totally take an extra 20 seconds. Not worth it.
(:

Also, that topic seems a bit... heavy. Don't think it would attract comments. I'd rather write one that would attract all the haters, like those posts I wrote about dominance in sexual relationships. Oohh, those just **sting** some guys. Why's that?

Still, though, cool. Ballroom dancing is win. I like.

I also like empanadas, which is half the point. If tango is happening somewhere, there are probably empanadas within a few yards.

[Rloco]

I love ballroom dancing and often get told I'm a fantastic lead. I just hope I am just at good at leading in life. I'm also waiting for the follower that I have magical chemistry with.

[benthurber]

You mean someone under the age of 40 and hasn't been divorced? lol Oi, I've been around the ballroom scene a while now...

Just think of life as a giant dance social. For men? Online dating is a lot like sitting at the edge of the dance floor and waiting for the woman of your dreams to walk up to you and ask 'you' to dance. You have to go out there and put yourself in situations that show off your personality and pursue them.

The best path towards success, imo? Know exactly who you are and what you want. By now, you're able to walk up to any woman at a social and ask her to dance, yes? You don't need game, lines, or tricks, you just need that sort of authentic confidence to walk up and say hello, talk, and say you're interested in getting to know her more if you actually are. So what if she says, "No?" There are so many other women to ask.

[Rloco]

This so true, whenever I'm at a dance I feel in my element and can ask any woman no matter how beautiful to dance and feel confident. I guess I just need to move this feeling to other aspects of my life.

[udolipixie]

"Ballroom Dancing: My Ideal Model for a Relationship "
For me dancing highlighted what I didn't want in a relationship and that was to be a follower or a guy with any traditional gender role mindsets. I think I was 5 taking dancing classes when I asked the male dance instructor why can't I lead since I'm a better dancer. His response was 'that's not the way it works guys lead because they're guys and girls follow because they're girls'. I told him that was bullsh*t and told him to call my mom then I sat out. In my opinion leadership is suited to be dictated by ability not simply because one person has a d*ck. To each their own.

[benthurber]

Declaring yourself a better dancer and therefor superior at a different and untested skill set? Sounds well reasoned and not the least bit conceited. ;)

Okay, now that I've given you grief. It's been mentioned here that there's benefit to trying the opposite role and seeing what they go through. What typically happens is that whoever usually follows is completely blitzed about how to lead what they were just taught. The leader usually ends up fairing far better in switching roles.

Here's the thing, Udolipixie. Nobody wants your independence...

Think about that for a moment.

You could be the best "dancer" in the world without anyone else, but you'll walk a lonely road if you never learn how to be in a partnership. And what makes a partnership last is interdependence. The roles aren't as important as whether or not you're giving to your partner and to your partnership.

So what will you give a partnership if you want nothing to do with a traditional female role? Will anyone want it?

[udolipixie]

"Declaring yourself a better dancer and therefor superior at a different and untested skill set? "
It wasn't a different skill set as everyone was in the same class so everyone had the same skill set. It wasn't an untested skill set as everyone did preliminaries. Sounds like you're pulling bs assumptions out of thin air to seemingly imply a character flaw to 'discredit'.

I tend to differ from most people it seems. I do not see it as conceited to acknowledge what is truth. Some people are better dancers than others.

"What typically happens is that whoever usually follows is completely blitzed about how to lead what they were just taught. "
In your experience. Mine vastly differs. Outside of scientific roles ie labs I find whoever follows tends to be quite competent in leading.

" Nobody wants your independence..."
Egh no I want my independence. As for everyone else you don't know everyone else to speak for them. In your opinion nobody wants my independence.

[udolipixie]

"You could be the best "dancer" in the world without anyone else, but you'll walk a lonely road if you never learn how to be in a partnership."
No I'll walk a lonely road if the only partnership is he leads, I follow. Fortunately it seems that is not the only type of partnership available. I'd rather walk a lonely road than be in a partnership where the roles are dictated by genitals not competence.

"The roles aren't as important as whether or not you're giving to your partner and to your partnership."
Meh if that were true then it wouldn't matter if the roles were she leads, he follows however I find most males yet most are not willing to or encouraging of being in the submissive/follower roles which is quite telling to me. It seems to be trite most males spew in order to pander to gals getting them to be followers under a misrepresented guise.

[udolipixie]

"So what will you give a partnership if you want nothing to do with a traditional female role? "
To me this question reveals that the roles are important and it's not about giving to your partner and to your partnership. Which contradicts your earlier claim that that the roles aren't important. This question to me also implies that the traditional female roles is the only way to give to your partner and to your partnership.

Though to answer your question what I have to give since I don't want to follow a traditional female role is giving to my partner and to my partnership. I will offer him the same as he offers me.

"Will anyone want it? "
I imagine most males don't care what gals want so I see no reason to fuss myself over whether males will want this. My only concern is my own happiness.

Though to answer your question in my opinion most guys will not want it as I find most males cannot handle being treated the same as they treat gals or being offered what they offer gals.

[UnknownXYZ]

vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/.../latest

Well maybe this is interesting. Despite being beautifully written, it just falls into the idea of reinforcing strong gender roles. The problem falls in place when the man doesn't constantly want to leader and the woman being the follower.

[benthurber]

What is strong? How strong is too strong? Would it be worse for people to be in egalitarian or even reverse-role relationship, only to find out they really just want something more traditional?

I don't mind that other dynamics work better for other people, but I've had enough experience to say that this works really well for me. It's not one person making every last decision but one person able to break a tie in a way that both win. I'll give an example:

Girl: I feel like going out to eat, what would you like to have?

Guy: Hmmm, I feel like having Mexican. (Seriously. 'Have', an answer. Not, "whatever you want is fine.")

She'll agree, or:

Girl: Ooo, that sounds good. I was originally thinking Italian.

Now what do they do? In the dynamic that works for me, I can and will make a decision without straining over what her reaction will be. What would your choice be to eat that night?

[benthurber]

For some men this is a struggle. They're worried over what the "right" answer is. Do they switch to her original idea or take their chances with her positive reaction and stick with Mexican? In my experience and observation, a guy's lack of decisiveness in this situation will instantanelously stress most women out. At the same time, consistantly ignoring her inputs will cause problems.

I gauruntee you that my immediate response would've been: "Let's have Mexican tonight and this weekend I'll make you an Italian dinner."

The tie has been broken. Both of us are happier.

Pro-tip: When you're at an awkward impasse with a woman over a simple decision, you are probably not being decisive enough.

[UnknownXYZ]

Personally, I would just be myself and say what feels comfortable for me. If she wanted Italian and I didn't mind, I would just go with it but I didn't want Italian then I won't have Italian. That's just how I am. Putting gender roles aside, the problem is that I am thinking that in general when people are talking about how relationships should be, it's just not in that person character to behave that way. Does that means they shouldn't be in a relationship then? Who knows?

[margarida]

Beautifully written and I can't help but agree. I can't wait to meet my dace partner-for-forever either!

[jasmineviolet]

Agreed :)

[archiz]

this was poetic and nice but I just don't agree with this.
I don't think man are the know it all for them to lead the way.

[benthurber]

True. We don't.

But you may have missed the part about "listening" or maybe I didn't flesh it out enough. I think men tend to be better at aiming at a goal, but women are better at picking up the details to either side that men miss. (Like saying men don't know it all for them to lead unconditionally and unmoved. ;) )

From the outside, it may seem like the guy has all the power in this dynamic. But someone who is great at leading is listening like crazy to his follower on the dance floor. Her 'say' in things is vital and never to be ignored.

I'm waiting on her. It does me no good to "lead" if she has no desire to follow; we're going nowhere. 'That' is power in a relationship. So somehow we have to work together and enjoy one another. So I have to give up power as she gives up control. It's only the balanced ebb and flow of communication and understanding between us that makes things run smooth.

(Try ballroom some time. Some of what I say may make more sense on a visceral level.)

[archiz]

I did latin dancing for 3 years so I have sort off an idea of what you re saying.
You need to follow the lead yet there should be a mutual understanding between the partners for the dance to be smooth.
This can and does apply in rl. To each their preference and lifestyle. But from what I ve seen for now, I have yet to find a man worthy for me to follow.
I think this would never happen cause I don't think his judgement is correct all the time. It's not just listening, I guess the woman should lead too if she is capable in that situation. Each has knowledge and experience to share in the relationship.
I agree in a situation there should be only one leader but life is full of different situations in which sometimes the girl is better taking the lead and in others it s the man.
That is balance as well.

[benthurber]

Agree with specialization of differing strengths and sometimes where those strengths overlap one person has more experience or information the other might not, so they step in and lead.

Nowhere does "control" work in partner dancing. It looks and feels as rough on the dance floor as it is in a relationship.

Last night during a group lesson the head instructor put it succinctly to the class:

"It's never 'Just follow me.'"

"It's both people asking 'How can I be a better partner?''How can I be a better partner?''How can I be a better partner?'"

[archiz]

true true :)

[Anonymous]

Interesting way to say : " Woman you should obey and follow your man. Eventually you'll accept it and become his property."

[benthurber]

Actually, no. I've met and danced with (metaphorically and literally) several women who just aren't followers. Nothing wrong with that, per se. But as someone with a more dominant personality, it's just never a great fit.

If the thought of being submissive (which is 'not' subservient) is a problem for you, I recommend you never have a boss, join the military, get in trouble with the law, or do partner dancing. Everyone, men and women, has someone to answer to. Even those at the top have people they are accountable to.

No one is asking you to dawn a role that doesn't fit. I'm only sharing what is 'my' ideal that may appeal to some, but by no means all. Believe me it's no fun dancing with a doormat.

[Opinion Owner]

I don't have trouble being submissive. But I'm not someone who cqn alwqys be that. I also want to take charge sometimes. Not always but I still do. When it comes to work, I have no trouble being ordered around a bit but I need to know my work is appreciated. So perhaps I'm looking for a well balanced relationship where both can step up or be submissive sometimes.
And I was mainly making joke. No need to get mad.

[redeyemindtricks]

Hun, people have this way of mistaking me for a bitch, because I call out weakness and posing. And I do not lose, with words. Do not lose.
No matter what I do, I end up in leadership positions. Just float right into them. End up in charge. Sometimes after just a couple of hours.

That's me.

I challenge people, I poke them, I try, I bait, I rib, I joke, I annoy, I test. I challenge people. All the time. To me it's fun. I'm not trying to be a bitch. I grew up in a household with 4 brothers where EVERYTHING was good-natured competition. Everything, from competition to chores to work. It rubbed off.

So, to say the least, I am not a doormat. If you have a weakness, I will call you on it. If you exhibit false confidence, I'll destroy you.

But I'm a submissive. This is the form my submissiveness takes. I challenge. I WANT to lose.

I've lost only once. The winner? Has to live with me for the rest of our lives. (:

The submissive is the one who issues the challenges. For the most part.

[Opinion Owner]

at least it means that to you

[benthurber]

Like I wrote in another comment, control doesn't work. It really is about finding harmony with your inherent strengths.

As for not finding someone you feel you can follow, I don't blame you. I find a lot of clueless guys that have no idea what they want in life, let alone with someone else; especially in your age bracket.

Also, let's not kid ourselves to say an implied insult of being chauvinistic is a joke... Unless you're going for the meta joke by saying it is.