Nice Guys Aren't Nice, But A Good Guy Would Be Great

[brain5000]

Ever read a bunch of myTakes that leave you feeling like the nice guy on the left?

Everyone has an opinion today about Nice Guys and dating, especially when the Nice Guys aren't nice at all, but we want a good guy who can treat us great because a great good guy who can be nice without being Nice would be wonderful!

Instead of giving a list of qualities that distinguish a Nice Guy from a Good Guy who might be either a feminist or an equalist, otherwise known as an equalitarian or egalitarian, and discuss why women — some of whom claim to be feminists but might instead be feminazis or just hypocrites or simply hate everyone — wouldn't date a nice guy if a great guy fell out of the sky... or maybe wouldn't date a great guy if a nice guy fell out of the sky ... or something... anyway...

1) Everyone gets rejected

Even hot people, men and women, make plays for people that don't work out. Sometimes they do work out but blow up in their faces, such as falling in love with someone who is in a committed relationship. Seeking intimacy requires one to open up and become vulnerable. When one is vulnerable, one is also more likely to get hurt. There is nothing super special about you that excludes you from this. It is common, and so are you.

2) No one is entitled to anyone

Is this or is it not the crux of the issue? Nice guys feel entitled. They shouldn't, because no one is.

Next time you feel compelled to refer to someone as a "nice guy" or a "nice girl" even, or if you're a girl who is ranting on about entitled "nice guys" because some nice guy rejected you for a hotter prospect, consider saying "no one is entitled" instead of calling them "nice guys."

Whenever possible in language, consider specificity and lack of irony over ambiguity. Before everyone on GAG writes a new definition for the word "nice," remember, it had a perfectly good definition that worked well long before any of us were born.

3) There a millions of people in the world

Don't become too attached to someone you aren't dating yet, because (see number 2) you aren't dating them yet and how well do you really know this person? I know that's easier said than done, but next time you feel the deep pain of rejection, tell yourself that. Then start surveying the world for the next prospect, because you understand this one person had no obligation to join you in a lifelong journey. You recovered quickly, and are ready to move on to the next prospect.

4) Relationships aren't for everyone

If, like me, you lack the cache to attract a suitable mate, and you understand your own lack of entitlement, you have the option to give up on dating altogether and go your own way. It is a perfectly valid choice than many make. Get out your fantasies and porn videos and find other areas in your life where you can succeed. Trust me, it gets easier as you go on, and you will be happier.

[Bluemax]

I disagree with your last point for the most part.

Humans have been selected by evolution to desire sex and touch with one another. Humans (and other primates and cetaceans) generally don't do well without it. They live shorter lives without it. They exhibit more depression without it. Some don't, but most do.

"It is a perfectly valid choice than many make"
For most, it isn't a choice they make. It is a situation imposed on them.

"Trust me, it gets easier as you go on, and you will be happier"
As one who has witnessed this in all likelihood FAR MORE than brain5000, I urge you to trust me when I say this is quite wrong. I have witnessed MANY people who are disfigured (my brother and I grew up around them) and who cannot find love and sex. They have been single/celibate more than TWICE AS LONG AS YOU HAVE BEEN ALIVE, brain5000. They DO focus on other things as best as they can. They DON'T feel entitled to love/sex. AND THEY ARE NOT HAPPIER AND IT'S NOT EASIER. If anything it has grown more difficult.

"If, like me, you lack the cache to attract a suitable mate..."
If, like brain5000, you lack the cache to attract a suitable mate, then I advise YOU MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO MAKE YOURSELF MORE ATTRACTIVE. Why this is an option you never explored is a mystery to me. In fact, why it's seldom explored on GAG at all is a mystery.

@redeyemindtricks
Y'ought to consider writing a mytake about improving one's appearance and overall attractiveness. You'VE written some insightful and very honest things about that. It would be nice if it were compiled into a single mytake.

Any rate, the rest of your points were good, brain5000, though I do think most peoplease who are frustrated about not finding love actually DON'T feel entitled.

[redeyemindtricks]

ahah have I? I don't remember saying much beyond what I'd consider basic common sense, as far as that is concerned ::shrugs::
... like fixing yr diet, knowing yr body, getting on *some* sort of exercise "program" (even if not at a gym), and selecting clothes that work well with yr body, look, and persona that you want to project.

I mean, the problem is, I would never *think* of those sorts of things in the organized sort of way that would produce a mytake. (... nor much else, which is why I've written a grand total of 1 mytake.)
If a question prompts it, then, I kinda go to town -- but the thoughts don't live in my head in organized "boxes" that way, hahah.

[brain5000]

There are lots and lots of Takes where this is explored. @the_rake and I discussed his current Take in this thread where he discussed ways men can make themselves more attractive to women.
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a28841-the-difference-between-the-good-guy-the-nice-guy-isn-t-looks-it-s

Problem here is that to take his suggestions requires overhauling your entire values system, and changing who you are and who you aspire to be just to net a bird. :) Yeah, no thanks.

I wrote about point (4) in detail: www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24125-fatalism-the-fatalist

I haven't been on a date in well over a year and it is getting easier. Maybe it's just a break? Who knows. It is my choice, and maybe the trick is that it has to _be_ a choice, and not a situation that is imposed.

[the_rake]

"changing who you are and who you aspire to be just to net a bird. "

lol are you for real

[the_rake]

7 attributes:

paternalism
intelligence
wealth
charisma
coolness
popularity
physicality

apart from paternalism, they are all desirable in and of themselves. even paternalism, some guys would dig that.

[brain5000]

@the_rake Some guys would. You're absolutely right. If you find those attributes desirable, that's fine. I wouldn't dispute or argue, or suggest my values are more valid than yours. They aren't necessarily shared by everyone, though. They require prioritization. A musician, for example, can't prioritize wealth over creativity. If he values wealth he'll never play. Values are not a one-suit-fits-all proposition.

[the_rake]

@mytaker

Sure. I'm giving an alternative perspective, a possible solution out of many. Not every guy wants to be high status so they can get a hot classy woman. You could be some gamer guy and settle for some nerdy girl that turns out to be the love of your life. Or you could go gay, stay celibate, etc. and still live a very happy life. I'm just talking about theories of female hypergamy and what women often say they are attracted to compared to what they are actually attracted to in reality.

[brain5000]

@the_rake Right, I get that. And I still agree with your assessment. I think we have come to an understanding, wouldn't you? *holds out hand, hoping for handshake*

[brain5000]

@the_rake The only tiny, teeny-tiny thing in what you just said that I might take issue with is your use of the word "settle." -- " You could be some gamer guy and settle for some nerdy girl that turns out to be the love of your life."

If I could get a woman with whom I shared values and intelligence, and she dressed in second-hand clothes in her pony tail rocking big glasses, that would be far better than a beautiful girl who had none of that, but whose cleavage shines like a bright, full moon popping out of her tight dress. It wouldn't be "settling."

[the_rake]

yes, we can agree.

about your observation: well for some guys, it would not be their ideal solution - it wouldn't be mine - but yes, for the guys that have exactly what they want, there is no "settling" to talk about. everybody has their own preferences.

[99percentangel]

This whole take is just spot on.

[Anonymous]

Maybe nice guys wouldn't be so bitter and mean after rejection if it was just properly handled by the girl in the first place, but 90% of the time the girl is afraid of hurting the guy because he's a nice guy. So what does she do? She unknowingly makes things worse because she prolongs the issue without addressing it head on, and allows the interactions and emotions fester until she becomes uncomfortable. This is partially because meanwhile, the guy is already uncomfortable, confused, and growing increasingly hurt and upset because the girl didn't give him a straight answer quite possibly days/weeks/months before when he made his intentions known. He continues to pursue because he doesn't even have a clue as to where he stands.

That's MY take on this matter. Nice guys are nice. They're good guys. They are just not properly dealt with in a one-sided love type situation, often times. It happens a lot, it has happened to me, and it probably happened to a lot of guys here. Girls need to realize they aren't angels in these situations either, in fact, you're probably being meaner than you thought.

Avoiding closure allows a guy's interest to linger, even strengthen depending on how passive-aggressive you are being. Yet, the guy does feel the disrespect on some level, all the same, but he wants to hold on to the hope, that you could maybe feel the same way. By the time you bite the bullet and finally reject this (likely very genuinely nice guy), it's way overdue. He's irritated, frustrated, and quite possibly emotionally drained. Point being, he is angry, and chances are, he's going to want to "let you have it."

Can you really blame him? Girls, PLEASE... do everyone a favor and don't play games or try to ease the pain if you think a guy is really nice. You need to put the flame to rest early if you do not feel the same way. That doesn't mean you need to be mean about it. Just don't accept dates, be an obvious flirt, or do anything that a guy could misconstrue as interest. That's basically lying to the guy that just went out of his way to ask you out. Big no-no. Just be clear that you don't wish to see him in "that way." If he truly is a good guy, he might be disappointed, but he'll understand.

If you string him a long and try to avoid the issue, how can he understand or respect your stance at that point?

[brain5000]

I can't speak for girls who are the object of the nice desires, but I suspect some of them like the guy as a friend and worry he'll go away forever if she bursts his bubble -- which is exactly what he should do.

You're right, a lot of guys go through this. I was a nice guy too. The problem is that we fall in love not with the girl, but with our fantasy of the girl. Maybe with the fantasy of dating and romance with her, and we don't want to risk killing that feeling by acting on it. Or maybe we're just afraid of the truth. The problem is that we shouldn't be afraid of the truth. Even if the truth hurts, it also sets us free. You can't sit on those feelings without acting on them. They're a time bomb. Also, once the relationship is cast, it is to her what it is in reality, not fantasy - a friendship.

If you are friends with a girl and you get feelings, you have to man up and act on them at the earliest opportunity for successful conversion...

[brain5000]

... or free yourself up to move on to someone who will appreciate you more.

[Anonymous]

Agreed on people who pretend to be nice. But what is equally wrong is some people claiming that actual nice guys are not nice. Yes they are nice. You cannot just say that to justify poor behavior on a woman's part.

Think about it (for sake of convenience we will say a nice guy is hitting on a woman, but the same applies the other way round).

Would a guy be really nice to you, text sweet stuff, uplift you and be nervous round you if he didn't like you like you (as in fancy you)? You do really know he likes you. In fact, maybe he's just being respectful, has fallen for you and doesn't know how to put it. It's not hiding anything or not having told you from the start.

If he did tell you when he met you, you'll probably say "I don't know you though". So he couldn't win either way lol!

What is the worst is this though. Please check out my question. Wrote it in response to your great take: www.girlsaskguys.com/.../q2046147-is-a-woman-more-likely-to-be-openly-sexual-with-someone-who-isn-t

[Pacificblue62]

But say you believe all four? That does not necessarily equate to being a great person either. That just means you choose to follow relationship standards you want to adhere to or view as socially acceptable. I mean #1, and #3 most would agree with. #2 and #4 I see to some degree as a bit more controversial.

[brain5000]

I believe everything I wrote here -- all four points. It's okay if it is controversial or if people disagree with all of parts of it. That's why it is a "myTake" and not a "scientificFact." ;)

[Pacificblue62]

Well said. Its important to stick by your values and beliefs. I agree with pretty much everything here as well. The only thing I would say is if some guy wants to be in a relationship I wouldn't necessarily suggest they completely buy into the mindset that relationships aren't for everyone. If they are satisfied with being single then sure. But if they want a girlfriend I think they should keep continuing to actively try and find someone. I don't think wanting a girlfriend is that bad. Lots of us probably know that feeling of looking around seeing many happy couples and wanting that to be in that fortunate position while at the same time being disappointed after any rejection that denies the possible opportunity to be with someone they care about. I think both of those feelings are completely natural. People in that position often think why can't I join in the fun as well? And they can. I think in that sense its ok for one to be entitled to a bit of disappointment when things dont work.

[brain5000]

No one disputes any entitlement to disappointment. If you demand disappointment, you will likely find it.

[Pacificblue62]

Well I think one thing that confuses people a bit about this whole thing, women especially, is that most of the time when guys get turned down and are frustrated about rejection they usually aren't frustrated because they felt entitled or were owed her. They are more dealing with the pain of an un-achieved desire they had which involved her and that pain causes the frustration. Also say a women is nasty in her rejection (which quite a few are) that can sharpen that pain. There are women out there who make it out like oh he shouldn't get upset he's not entitled to me, guys can't complain about rejection etc. but they aren't really focusing on the fact that maybe this guy really liked me and he's just going through some of that pain right now. I think younger guys going through the sting of their first rejections get criticized too much in this regard. I'm not saying being frustrated complaining etc is ideal. It's not. But through experience you learn to just take it/ have thick skin.

[brain5000]

You are correct when you say that some women can be cruel. Rejection is hard. It's hard to be the rejector, too, especially when you like the other person in a non-sexual way. You don't want to hurt them.

If cruelty is the issue, make sure your complaints focus on the cruelty of the rejection, and not on the rejection itself.

[Kiran04]

This take is very incoherent and ambiguous.

"There are millions of people in the world."
Actually, there are billions, but you don't know and will never know billions of them, not even millions or hundreds of thousands, so this point is completely irrelevant. There are billions of stars too, but none will ever shine light on our planet like the sun.

"Relationships aren't for everyone"
Also irrelevant. No one cares about whether a "nice guy" is a good partner or not if they aren't looking for a relationship in the first place.

"Everyone gets rejected"
How would a "nice guy" not know that? Especially if women don't like nice guys, as you state. Nice guys should be more than acquainted with rejection, just like every guy on the planet is.

No idea where you were trying to head with this take. It looks like you were shooting at a 100 yard bullseye with a scope that wasn't in focus, hitting all around mark, but never on it.

[the_rake]

so basically, you know a little bit better than all of this - and I know for a fact you do because you demonstrated at least some small understanding of my take about status - but you go on to write this drivel anyway.

[brain5000]

Not sure what you are seeing that is contrary to what we discussed on your Take?

[the_rake]

hmm seems I posted this on the wrong take my bad. it's a good take actually.

about entitlement, maybe you'd like to check out this take, because I cover it from a few different angles:

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a26565-the-i-don-t-owe-you-you-don-t-owe-me-game

just a suggestion.

[Pacificblue62]

@ the_rake Just read your other post. You nailed it. Great read.

[JohnB1]

I was a nice guy. But I turned bad guy from blooming late and getting non virgins wanting to date me. I just treated them just as bad as the last guy. I am at peace now because I got to do what I wanted to do to them. I wanted sex and a short toxic relationship. Nice guy turned bad was the best thing that ever happened to me.

[JoyGirl]

Actually, it really shouldn't be the best thing that ever happened to you. Not trying to judge you, but don't you ever think of the girls you have hurt? Whether it is rejecting them, or taking their virginity away. To tell you the truth, any nice girl dating a bad boy, wishes deep down inside her that she really wants a nice man. There are many boys who are late bloomer, and they are still nice to people, and watch what they do. Sex, and short toxic relationships, are not the best. I am sure in those kind of relationships, there is a lot of heart break. I have personally not been in a relationship before, and I have it was probably in primary school, or junior high, when everyone was claiming a boyfriend, for the fun of it or to be cool, which is never the best choice, but hey cut us some slack, we were kids. Honestly I am afraid to ever get in a serious relationship, because of the boys that want to just take my virginity from me, and leave me hurt, and feel dirty. I prefer nice boys.

[JohnB1]

@JoyGirl nope i don't think about the girls I hurt when i was in high school and college. They obviously didn't give a shit about me when they gave their virginity to some guy before me. Why should i give a shit about a non virgin girl who had already been used for sex? They weren't virgins, why would I give a shit about their feelings. Non virgin girls don't get the nice version of me.

[JoyGirl]

Not to get in to your business, sir, but what if they regret the things they did to you?

[JohnB1]

A guys rule to follow, if the non virgin girl is not good enough, lead her on, use her for sex, and leave on your own terms.

[JohnB1]

@JoyGirl the girls felt embarrassed and regret not saving for me. But regret and apologies don't turn back time so they are not good enough. Nobody including Me has to accept and apology. Its our right to reject the apology and walk away.

[JoyGirl]

Well, sir, I know that God will mend your broken heart. Some day you may meet one of the girls, and she will regret what she has done, and apologize. I know it is your right to walk away, and not take the apology, but at least you should give them a chance. They probably didn't mean to deliberately hurt you. We all do crazy things sometimes, and we regret it. Who knows, maybe the girls who hurt you wish they could go back and fix what they did.

[JohnB1]

@JoyGirl I do give these girls a chance. I just lead them on for a while, use them for a while, and then tell them this isn't working out for me 6-12 months down the road. Yes they all wish they can go back and fix it after they see how good i treat them. But regret, remorse, and apology will never fix what they done. I will forgive them when they invent the time machine.

[JoyGirl]

Haha 😆
Invent a time machine? 😊
What if they never do?

[JohnB1]

@JoyGirl that means I will never forgive them and i have no choice but to walk away after I use them.

[JoyGirl]

I kind of feel bad for those girls, and you. If they had know that they were hurting you, I am sure they won't have hurt you.

[JohnB1]

@JoyGirl its OK. We all have moved on and gotten married and started families. Its all water under the bridge now.

[JoyGirl]

That's good, at least your all happy. 😊

[Anonymous]

What's the point of their being millions of other people in the world? You won't get to meet most of them anyway... And no rejection doesn't mean you can just move on to the next prospect without reflecting on your weaknesses: if you get rejected a lot this means the next prospect is also likely to reject you because beauty mostly isn't in the eye of the beholder.

[brain5000]

Also to @Kiran04, since your comment was similar: the point of "there are millions (or billions) of people in the world" is to say that there are virtually limitless options, so emotionally investing heavily in one person right out of the gate, assigning them inordinate value, is not wise. Keep things in proportion and perspective.

Yes, you should "reflect on your weakness," as well as your mistakes, lest you make them again with the next prospect, if you feel it warranted.

[Kiran04]

But that's untrue. There are not limitless options. If that were true, none of us would have any problem finding a partner. Well, it ain't. Options are not limitless. Not even close. Not even comparable. To think otherwise is a fairy tale and a complete fallacy. Beyond just simple physical barriers like location and geography, there's also compatibility, social standing, familial acceptance, and any other number of nuances that dwindle your "limitless" down to extremely limited for many people.

[brain5000]

@Kiran04 I said there were virtually limitless options based on the number of people in the world. I did not mean to infer that every other person in the world was attractive and compatible with you.

[sjoes006]

Definitely a different there for sure. Nice guys finish last because they are fake.

Be honest but fare as an employer or lover and you will thrive in both.

[Anonymous]

hum...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihSTGqCO52Q

[brain5000]

This is a pretty great video. It has nothing to do with this Take except they use the word "nice" in totally different yet ironic, double-sworded way, making the word even more confusing. Still, it deserves its own Take and thread. It's not really suited to this one. My reaction to it is: this is why men need to talk about their darker thoughts and feelings to each other, the way women talk to each other.

[Anonymous]

I agree with you and this is all true. This is a great myTake.

[Anonymous]

I used to be an affectionate nice guy. Now im a good dick (pun intended)

[John_Doesnt]

Good guy = guy with lots of cash.