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3 Reasons to Stop the Gender War (And 3 Ways to Do So) (Page 2)
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This is an easy claim to make when you are part of the most privileged group of human to ever exist in human society.
Society is gynocentric and men are the disposable units.
Yet feminist and social justtwats constantly convince society that women are victims. SO men have to start fighting back.
Society was built and sustained on the backs of men. Yet men get zero credit or respect for it.
This needs to change.
Promoting a competition regarding who has it worse is frustrating to the other side and only creates more animosity between the genders. You know nothing about me or my life, and you also don't know what it's like to be a girl. We ALL see the world through our own biased perspective. I can admit that, and I can only have a productive conversation about gender issues with you if you can admit that too. Otherwise, have a nice day.
I don't need to know about you or "how it is to be a girl".
All I need is to know the difference between male rights and privileges and female rights and privileges.
It has nothing to do with my "perspective" because facts don't care about perspective.
I can admit that you will likely have a point of view which is different than mine, but if you make a claim of any kind, I would expect you to have a viable and unbiased source. As I would expect you to expect from me as well.
So you don't think that if women put themselves in men's shoes a little more, they might understand where you're coming from more and be more open to compromising or caring about men's needs?
I do think it would help women to understand and be more open to compromising and caring about men's needs. But I don't know if that is something a female is capable of doing.
Our society has always been gynocentric and women have no issue with that because it benefits them.
If women wanted equality as feminist stated they do. There would need to be women fighting against the mass of female only things in our society, as well as fight for the issues which hurt men. But it's generally the opposite. They fight to keep the female privileges and fight to suppress help for male issues.
Both genders need to try to put themselves in the other's shoes, and both genders have a hard time with it. That's a natural part of being human. I disagree strongly that our society has always been gynocentric. It is somewhat gynocentric now, I'll give you that. Women have all the rights and privileges we could ask for, with the exception of the ongoing battle over reproductive rights and options. However, we're not going to get anywhere towards cooperation and mutual respect unless both sides can put away their blame and their competitive attitudes.
If for sure is a matter of view... but generally male issues can be proven.
On the topic of Reproductive rights... men have zero. Women have 100%.
A male can not choose to keep a child he wants if she says no.
A male can not choose to get rid of a child he doesn't want if she says yes.
A male can't choose to not pay for a child that he didn't want if she says yes.
A male can not choose to see that child if she doesn't want him to.
Yeah, there are some places where abortion is considered wrong, but women have the option to simply go somewhere where it is ok to have the procedure done.
Women can usually kill a child up to 24 weeks without any issue, women can even kill the child after birth and generally be excused because of post partum or other female excused mental issues.
If a man prevents a female from having a child 24 hours after it's conceived he can be charged with murder.
The fetus is a life when a man takes it but isn't a life when a woman takes it.
Women don't have 100% control over their reproductive rights (abortion rights are constantly threatened by changing policies, are not legally available in every area). And men do have some amount of control (condoms, vasectomies, plus recent new strides in reversible male birth control). I agree that men should be able to choose not to pay child support, assuming that he lets the woman know during a time frame where she still has options.
Like I said it may not be available in all areas, but at least you have it. Men don't have it at all.
Claiming that condoms and vasectomies is parental rights is like saying women can simply take the pill or get fixed as a solution for abortion.
Men may not have the option to make a final decision about terminating a pregnancy, but that's both a blessing and a curse- they don't bear the brunt of the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy.
Since women can terminate these unwanted pregnancies in 75% of the world without issue.
https://i.imgur.com/79CfXsy.jpg
Women don't bear the brunt of the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy. They make the CHOICE to keep or not keep the child. (Which again, men do NOT) and then they also make the CHOICE to make a guy pay for that choice or not.
This is a circular argument. Women are the ones who have the final say on whether or not to go through with a pregnancy because they are the ones who get pregnant. They are the one to carry the child, and to deal with all the medical risks and social stigmas. Plus, if they choose an abortion, they are the one who has to go through a painful procedure and deal with all the physical trauma that's involved and the emotional impact of making such a heavy decision. They have more control because they are impacted more intensely. If that's not fair I don't know what is. (Also, even though abortion is supposedly legal in the U. S., there are still many areas in some states where it is essentially impossible to access a safe legal abortion- but that's a different topic entirely.)
I don't think you understand what circular argument means.
This is not a circular argument.
The scapegoat that women incubate the child, therefore have 100% say over it's existence is wrong. Her choice affects the male life as well. When the choice of men affects a female life, women lose their shit, so it's funny that women give zero fucks when it comes to affecting a man's life.
Yes, men are affected, but not nearly as much as women are. For men, it's about either having a kid or not having a kid. Literally everything else is on the woman.
Once again... no everything else isn't on the woman. Physically the stress is on the female but a female has help from society, the government, clinics, etc. A male has NONE of that support, if he is unable to pay for the child... he goes to jail. That pressure and bias is part of why 80% of suicides are male.
She may have help from society in some cases, but in other cases she also deals with judgement and shame. This is not a simple issue. Also, I believe that men should have the option to choose not to pay child support, so that is not an aspect that we need to argue about. In terms of who has the final say about abortion, it's unfortunate that there is no way to make it 100% fair, but allowing the woman to make the final choice is the only thing that makes sense. Also I sincerely doubt that 80% of all suicides are directly linked to child support issues.
No not all 80% are child support issues obviously. It's part of a bigger problem of gynocentric sexism. Men don't get support or help, they are seen as disposable items, we make up the majority of homeless because women have shelters, we are not believed or are ridiculed when victims of abuse by women, or sexual assault by women. We are forced to pay for children that we either didn't want or that aren't really ours, we lose our children in divorce the majority of the time, or are kept from them by lies and false accusations of the mother, etc. All this compounds and makes the suicide issue what it is.
I agree that we need to pay a lot more attention to men's mental health issues. But men are also less likely to seek help and report problems, so both genders have a role in solving this.
that map is great, I am glad that my country only approves abortion when it's a health issue, the whole Europe and north america have already started human depopulation =(
I think he is right in some comments, women have lots of rights than men will probably never have, men are rarely respected when it comes to reproductive issues, men are forced to wear condoms while women don't wear anything, feminism is destroying our families, men can hardly have child custody, wich is a horrible thing against men
women deal with shame? what are you talking about? women have all the medical rights and help they want, men are the ones opressed that's why men kill themselves so much
@Ramiro1992 There are female condoms, but they're less effective than male condoms. And women are expected to use hormonal birth control, which can wreak absolute havoc on their health and sanity. Women do not have MORE reproductive rights. They simply have different ones.
That said, I feel strongly that men should have the option to reject their parental rights and responsibilities if they wish to. They should be able to avoid paying child support if they let the woman know right away that they don't want a child.
you are right, but I don't think that's gonna happen, also child custody is always for the mother
@Ramiro1992 Not always always, but you're right, there's a bias. And the child support thing might happen if men asked for it and if we created a functional system for it. Men have never really had to ask for anything before, women have always been the ones to have to ask for things. But equality goes both ways. Women are more on par now and men need to learn how to ask for what they need the same way women have to.
the reason men don't ask is simple, nobody will care about men's rights thanks for the stupid feminist ideas that ruined the whole family system
@Ramiro1992 If you won't even try, then your situation is your own fault. Period. The only way that people will learn about these issues and start to sympathize and care is if you SHOW them how important it is to you.
we know for a fact that we never will be listened, men all around the world are being ignored, are you gonna say that every single of those men doesn't stand for their rights?
@Ramiro1992 Clearly they don't stand for them if they're not willing to speak up. Women wouldn't have their rights or what they need if they didn't ask for it.
@samhradh_leannan Women had everything they pissed and moaned for "not having" long before they pissed and moaned for not having it.
Women had the right to vote, own land, work, etc. LONG before feminism and the suffragettes.
The problem isn't that men don't speak up about the issue of men... the problem is that when men do, feminist silence, shame, and attack them for it. Because feminism is a hate group.
I agree 100% we as men don't have voice anymore thanks to feminism =(
Okay, do nothing then.
completely agree, why can't we enjoy everything we can about the opposite sex even if we don't always agree with each other?
Gender wars will stop when we adopt humanism and chuck the feminism and MRA bullshit.
I think for the most although the hasn't reached the other side yet ( feminist ), I think the war is pretty much reached it's end because many men have decided to go it alone their own way.
Agree with everything except the ball earth propaganda. We live on a flat earth.
https://flatearth.click/p1.png
The best way to stop gender war is by stopping feminism, simple as that
Every individual and group deserves the right and freedom to stand up for themselves and fight for their needs, including but not limited to women. However, modern feminism/feminazism/misandry does need to take a hike, you're right about that part.
They don't deserve rights when they hate towards men and they are misandric, feminism is destroying their own movement, that's why nobody will take you serious anymore, even if it was peaceful protest, I don't know how many more privileges you want for women, more than they already have? how about men? feminists acts like men don't exist
I agree that misandry is wrong, but that doesn't mean people (including women) don't deserve the opportunity to fight for their rights and their needs. Do you have any idea what you're getting into by implying that people don't have the right to stand up for themselves just because you don't agree with their attitude? Freedom of speech and the freedom to protest and be heard is an integral part of running a fair and free society. That said, I am NOT condoning misandry or any other type of sexism. Feminists who don't care about men are absolutely in the wrong. But we need to contradict them, not deny their right to speak out.
Or I should say, that while actual misandrists don't necessarily deserve the right to speak out or make demands, not all feminism includes misandry. So you need to be very specific about what kind of feminism you are talking about when you make the claim that feminists don't deserve to have a voice.
Feminism is all the same in every level, at least in the 21st century. If you are not misandric you are NOT feminist, if you fight for both genders rights you are not feminist, you are igualitarian. Don't try to wash your hands and call yourself a feminist when you don't support feminism itself. It's like saying that I support a team but I don't want that team to win, you are contradicting yourself. The image of feminism is already dirty, they showed us how violent, misandric and crazy they are. So if you truly care about men's right you are not a feminist. It's ironic that you call yourself a feminist and you said you defend free speech, but when a person disagree with any of your ideas you call it misoginist, dirty men, you probably think that if someone is against feminism (like myself) is against woman, and that's not the case. Trying to defend feminism is useless, because we both know well what feminism really is, a really crazy movement who likes to censor people.
There ARE multiple definitions of feminism currently being used. Denying that is pointless. Personally I think it is much simpler and more accurate to call misandrists what they are, and leave feminism with its original definition. What we really have today are misandrists and egalitarians. If you want to leave feminism as an outdated term referring only to a historical civil rights movement, that's fine. But insisting on referring to misandrists as feminists is only adding to the problems that we're dealing with as a society. If a terrorist calls themselves a hero, do we call them a hero too, and change the definition of what a hero is? Or do we tell them they're wrong and call them a terrorist?
Regardless, it's pointless to waste time arguing about what we should call things. But it is NOT pointless to be clear about what we mean.
And I do agree with you about people who are feminists by your definition. They do need to be stopped. They are probably the single biggest contributing factor to this problem.
why do you need feminism anyway? men don't need to have their own movement, even tho we as men are being destroyed emotionally and we are not taking serious by any goverment, it is clear that you girls have most of the rights and privileges, I wanna ask you how many more privileges you want for you and how many more rights you wanna take out from men? Because we as men are already damaged by your useless and idiotic feminism, either peaceful or violent, the ideas are almost the same
Feminism (real feminism anyway) is not all about "rights" and "privileges". Yes, that fight is pretty much over. But the basic needs of women, such as the need for accessible birth control and safe, legal abortions, are frequently threatened by changing laws and policies. So it's important to be vigilant and stand up for those types of needs. If men aren't having their needs met, they have as much of a right to speak out and stand up for themselves as women do. That's exactly what I am trying to do here- acknowledge that BOTH genders have struggles and needs that must be met, and prioritize cooperation, fairness, and mutual respect in addressing these issues. Promoting a competitive attitude about who has it worse ultimately doesn't help anyone and just creates more animosity between the genders.
yeah but I don't think any feminist really care about men's right, because if you do as a feminist you would also fight for men's rights, since we as men are never gonna be taken seriously by any goverment, that's why there's not any "male" organization. The goverment only listen to crazy feminists who all they do is hate towards men, you can't deny the truth. I feel that we as men don't have any more rights anymore, and soon we are gonna be enslaved by females thanks to this stupid feminism
Again, we're running into problems with the definition of the term "feminist". So I don't know what group of people you're actually talking about here. And again, if you feel men aren't being heard, then you have the same right to speak up. You can't resent other people for speaking up just because you choose not to. Let's all make ourselves heard so that we have a chance to respect each other's needs.
modern feminism is all the same, if you want equality you are not a feminist, you are igualitarian, we can't accept feminist ideology anymore, even if you are pacifist, your ideology sucks because you are not oppressed and you have the same (or more) rights than men, so I don't know what else you want that you need to be a feminist.
There are multiple ways to define feminism, and frankly, that's just a fact right now. If you want me to assume that any time you use the term feminism, you are referring to modern, radical, misandristic feminism, then I will assume that.
there's only 1 feminism, as I said, the peaceful feminism that you are talking about ended decades ago when men and women started having equal rights, current feminism is just useless and a harm to society
The what do you call a woman who cares about the rights of both genders, and still fights for issues that do affect women specifically such as reproductive choice? Does that qualify as egalitarian to you?
there's hardly any woman who does care about men's right, I would call a woman igualitarian if she can mention me 2 rights that women need and 2 rights that men need
How on earth do you know how many women are egalitarians? Especially given how convoluted and confusing all these issues have become?
I'm aware of, and I care about, many issues that are specific to both genders:
1. Men should have the right to avoid paying child support by letting the woman know that he doesn't want to raise a child, within a time frame where she still has options
2. Mental health is an issue for men that is often ignored and incredibly under-prioritized
3. Rape of male victims is not treated seriously by our society
4. Women need the unopposed, invulnerable right to safe and legal abortions (with perhaps some laws regarding time frame, depending on the situation)
5. Women still need equal pay for equal work (93-95 cents to the dollar)
6. Women shouldn't pay tax on basic feminine hygiene products because they are absolutely NOT a luxury in any sense
are you aware that woman are paid the same? if they are paid less it's because their jobs are less hard than men's job, if women actually were cheaper to hire almost any job position would be reserved for woman, do you realize that many "issues" that you think women have are just not real or not as bad as you feminists claim?
The 93-95 cents to the dollar statistic does take those differences into account. It's the 75-77 cents to the dollar statistic that doesn't. And who are you to claim that an issue is not serious or real just because it doesn't affect you? How can you expect women to respect men's needs if you won't return the favor?
I can't expect anything from feminist brainwashed people like you, I can only wish you people stop hating on men and acting like a bunch of psychos, liars and hypocrites who call themselves "feminists" and you claim to care about men's rights when you do nothing for men. All you do is privilege women and hate towards men, blaming us forr all your problems. I certainly can't expect something good from feminism, I just hope that men's right are respected some day.
So caring about men and caring about women are mutually exclusive?
I don't hate men. I have never hated men. If you're going to assume that I hate men just because I care about issues that affect women too, then that's very sad, and possibly a larger problem than feminism itself. If you're going to let a few radicals turn you against all women then that's on you, not me.
of course not, but you told me that you care about both men and women, then you are not a feminist, because feminists only care about women
I'm not a feminist by your definition, no. And I don't support those who are. So why are we still arguing?
oh sorry if my words bothered you, I just like to argue in a good way, we are talking just fine
So when you referred to "feminist brainwashed people like you", you were talking to... someone else? Lol. You asked for two issues that affect each gender, I gave you three, and you still chastised me. So much for trying to broker peace.
how do I chastised you? I think most feminists are brainwashed, and that's not an insult, but if you are not a feminist it's okay. I think you are mad or something, if you take those words in a bad way it's not my fault, I am just tired of feminism, you said that there's multiple forms of feminism, and that is not the case, I just showed you how harmful the feminism can I want both gender to be equal, sadly that's not the case right now, because thanks to feminism women have more privileges than men right now, and feminists like to play victims every time
You literally said feminist brainwashed people "like you", clearly implying that I was one of those people. Lol. There is no other way I could have taken that.
But if that's not what you meant, then okay.
you are not a feminist, it's okay. sorry if I was mean with my words I talk like that sometimes when I talk about feminism, you are so right when you said that both genders have the right to stand up for themselves, but sadly there's no movement fighting for men's rights right now, and it probably never happen, because nobody is gonna take us seriously. feminism in the other hand is doing things their own way, hating towards men, being violent and playing the victims role, NO feminist care about men's right, do you agree with that?
I think if men work together with women who are not feminists, then we can make progress. Especially if we accept that it's possible to care about both men and women at the same time. Not everything has to be a trade-off or a competition.
And yes, I agree that no feminists- by your definition, as opposed to traditional feminists- care about men's rights. And that's why don't share their beliefs.
of course, men and women can live in peace and harmony together, but we as a society will either have to change the feminist ideology, or stopping it, if we let feminism keep going out of control, both genders are gonna loose. My definition of feminist is accurate, you can watch many videos on youtube about people criticizing feminism who would tell you the same definition as I do, because sadly that's what feminism is nowadays, a bunch of men hating women who are crazy to destroy churches, attack police and attack innocent men, playing the victims role and never caring about men's right, in my country for example, feminism is out of control. We as men feel too bad about that, imagine if suddenly there's a men's movement who hates women and destroy churches and stuff, will you be mad?
Yes, a lot of people share your definition, but not everyone does. Some people refer to egalitarians as feminists and refer to your definition of feminism as modern or radical feminism or misogyny. And I acknowledge those differences of definition, because we don't need more fights and misunderstandings just because people use a different definition of the word "feminism". It doesn't mean they disagree with you about the issues, it just means they were told something different about which word means what than what you were told. There's no reason to create more antagonism between the genders based on something as arbitrary as how you choose to define a word. You have to admit, the definition of feminism as egalitarianism came first. It's not that crazy that there are still people who define it that way. So please, if you really care about progress, don't punish people for using different definitions when they agree with you about the actual issues.
criticizing is not the same as punish, I am free to criticize feminism and I will criticize until feminism is extint, they try to explain us that they care about men's rights after destroying churches and call men pigs and all those words
Yes, but I'm not talking about criticizing feminism. I'm talking about refusing to acknowledge that people may claim to be feminists only because their definition of feminism is different from yours. That does t mean they are wrong, or that they're a feminist by your definition, it just means they're using the word differently because they were taught something different than what you were taught.
It's like if you said to someone "I'm against cats", and they said "I love cats", and then you got into a big argument about whether cats are good or bad. But they actually refer to dogs as cats, so you're talking about cats, but they're really talking about dogs. So the entire argument is a big misunderstanding. Yes, that's a silly example, and it makes no sense for someone to call a dog a cat. But the definition of feminism is not as black and white as the definition of a cat, because the word has been given many definitions throughout history. We have to acknowledge that, and be specific about how we as individuals are defining feminism when we use the term. Otherwise, we're creating additional confusion and animosity over something as silly as how someone uses a word. That's not worth it. Figuring out how to communicate effectively with other people is crucial for facilitating peace and compromise.
yeah but there's no such a thing as "good modern feminism", feminism used to be good to achieve some things in the past, but they have already achieved those things, then there was 2 options, evolve feminism or stop feminism once and for all, they went for the first option, but they evolved it in a very bad way, I think feminism should end now before they keep making ridiculous actions and arguments, and we need to come together as a single human race, without hating other person for the gender and without playing the victim role.
Originally, feminism served the purpose of promoting equality between the genders. As a result, some people still refer to egalitarianism as feminism, and they differentiate between traditional feminism and radical/misogynistic feminism. I'm not supporting modern feminism here, I'm just saying that words and definitions should not be the point. The point is what people actually believe about the issues. Until our entire society can agree on one universally accepted definition for what feminism refers to, we have to accept that there are multiple definitions being used. Which means it's important to clarify what definition you use when you're discussing the topic of feminism. Do you understand what I'm saying?
I've been talking about the definition of the term "feminism" and how people use the word, but you keep returning to the issue of feminism itself. So I can't tell if you understand what I'm trying to say, or not.
yes, I do understand, but you are mixing terms, feminism is by general definition a movement who promotes rights ONLY for women, that's not being equal to men.
Yes, however, the focus of historical feminism was gender equality, and it is now sometimes used as an alternate term for egalitarianism. I know that because I've talked to many people who use the term that way. It's not a question.
well I am glad that you really care about men's issues, I also do care about women's issues, but the only way men can help women and viceversa is by coming together and stop diving us with movements like feminism, but don't worry people would realize that there's no point in going on fighting between genders, that the best way to success is by being united both men and women
I agree. We need to come together in order to make progress. And I do feel that we need to stop referring to egalitarianism as feminism, and put an end to the confusion there. But changes like that take time, and that fight is not the important one. Making progress on the actual issues is far more important than how we define a word.
Okay, nice, tell me one issue that affects you for being a woman and I will tell you one issue that affects me for being a man
It's very concerning to me that access to safe, legal, and affordable abortions is constantly being threatened by changes to laws and policies. Especially in light of our current political situation, and the fact that there are already some parts of the country where it's not possible to access one, this is extremely worrying to me. People have an idea that "abortion is legal" but it's just not that simple. There are tons of cases where women who really need one can't access one, or they have to travel to do it, which they may be unable to afford. So that's my biggest priority, in terms of problems that affect women. What is your biggest priority problem that affects men?
ah that's interesting, abortion is a controversial topic even more when religious people joins the debate (I am not religious) so that should be a topic that should be asked to science if a fetus is a person or not.
One of the biggest concerns that I have being a man is the fact that we are not being treatened as well as women, I mean men are told that we can't show our emotions because we will be called weak, feminists doesn't care about our emotions, and believe me, we have very strong emotions and even stronger feelings than women. Society needs to understand that because the suicide rate of men is going out of control, and the depression is still here, I feel treated like garbage for most of feminist people, and nobody cares about our feelings, that's my biggest concern.
I agree, and I see that as a really big problem as well. It infuriates me that boys are told not to cry or show their emotions, and it's a really serous issue that men often feel too ashamed to seek help with emotional struggles and depression. I always speak up on behalf of that issue when I have the chance and I will continue to do so.
Abortion is a controversial issue and I know that not everyone supports it in the first place, including many women. And I'm not against reasonable time limits or required education, outside of extenuating circumstances such as rape or concerns about the mother's health. But it's my personal belief that the option of a safe, legal, accessible abortion (at least for a certain period of the pregnancy) is an absolutely crucial part of providing women with the options and opportunity that they need in order to be on par with men socially and in the work force.
I think science will have the last word about the abortion topic, since when a fetus can be called a person? since the 1st month? the 2nd month? Anyway many religious people will get offended by that and I am not religious but I have friends who are and they are good people but their beliefs are just not right. Tell me any other problem that woman have that men don't
Honestly I don't know if that's something science can decide. I mean, clearly it is human from the beginning, but when it becomes a person with rights that trump the mother's rights is a matter of opinion I think. But if there is a way for science to be the decider than I'm all for that, as long as it provides some window where women can seek an abortion.
The other issue on my mind right now is one that ultimately affects both men and women, because it is a family issue. I think that paid maternity leave should be a requirement everywhere, and it is only a requirement in some places (and not in the U. S.). I see that as a big problem. And it affects families as a whole, not just women. I also think men should have some amount of paid paternity leave, but since the woman actually gives birth, I guess maternity leave is slightly more important. That is an issue I really care about, but it's not strictly a gender issue. What is something else that men deal with?
How can a newborn baby be a problem in the mother's life? having a kid is a beautiful thing, bringing life to the world, how can you don't love a baby? if I have a baby some day that will be one of the best days of my life if not the best, and I would love that kid with all my hearth as well as his mother, even if she doesn't love me anymore. Some religious people like to argue that poor people can have kids and give them for adoption, but that's not always the case, not always people want to adopt a baby. I think population shouldn't be under control because we have a lot of resources, the fact that there's a lot of poor people is goverment's fault, not because the resources are scarce. Of course many people are not ready for kids, or victims of rape don't want kids, in that case abortion may be acceptable.
Another problem men have is that we have to take the most high risk jobs and woman always take more secure jobs, when a man dies nobody cares, when a woman dies is a tragedy.
Well, I can't agree with you about not needing to control the population. We do have a lot of resources, but we're blowing through them, and we're trashing the planet while we're at it. At this rate, we'll be lucky if our grandchildren can raise their families on Earth. Decreasing population size would help reduce the wastes we're creating.
Having children is an amazing gift, yes. But only if you're ready and you have the ability to comfortably support a child. When we talk about the type of woman who is likely to seek an abortion for an unplanned pregnancy, we aren't talking about happily married women who are financially stable and able to support a family. These are young, single, financially unstable women who might be students or even young teens. Having a baby would derail, and possibly ruin, their entire lives and futures. Women who ARE ready to have a baby aren't likely to seek an abortion.
there's a lot of single mother out there than can raise their children without a problem, I know people who have kids and they manage to work and study, it's all about love, if you really love your kid, you will not abort him, simple as that, the population doesn't need to be reduced, we should be doing fine because we have more than enough resources on earth to support twice the current population, so don't blame poverty in people, instead blame it on corrupted goverments
I hear you about the job issue. But it's up to men themselves to stop choosing those jobs if they don't want them. Men may be more likely to take on dangerous jobs, but they're also more likely to fill high positions in companies, such as CEO and presidential positions, and to work in STEM fields (science, technology, engineering, math). Women are responsible for seeking the jobs they want, and so are men. It is NOT true that nobody cares when a man dies. That is just not true.
It's not really for you to say how easy it was for them or whether or not it was a problem. Some women make the choice to become single mothers, but that doesn't mean it's something every woman can or should choose. And most importantly, it SHOULD be a choice.
well in fact it is always more tragic when a woman dies, sadly women lives are considered more valuable than men's lives, and that's a fact. Men can't just choose not to work in dangerous jobs, the economy needs us, and I think we gotta do it because someone else won't do it, I only want feminists to stop complaining about men having better paid jobs, because men loose their lives doing jobs that women will never do
If men's lives really are valued less, then that's a serious problem. But the wage gap of 93-95 cents to the dollar DOES take into account differences in jobs.
Men lives are actually less valuable in lots of countries (at least in mine they are) nobody fights for our lives, nobody cares when a man dies, and if a man dies for domestic violence most people won't care or laugh at the situation, believe it or not, feminist is so out of control over here that we don't have some rights anymore, we are accussed of being rapist just for being male, we are being blame for almost every problem women have, and it's so crazy and out of control that it's starting to bothering me, that's why I am against feminism. The news are all the same, when a woman gets killed "it is a big tragedy that should never happen again" but there's rarely news of a man being killed. Sad world we live in, we won't progress as a society while we have not equal rights, we will neve achieve something if women are more valued than men
that's not what I said, if you are a feminist you don't only care about woman rights, but you do the best to blame everyhting on man and "patriarchy" feminists hardly respect men's rights and never fights for men rights either
you said that you are fighting for "opressed" women like you, while you are clearly not being opressed, if there's a gender being opressed is the male gender. I don't know how many more privileges you want for being a woman, the fact that you ask for lots of privilege is not the worst part, the worst part is that you don't care for men's right while you "ask" for more privileges, so that's even a worst problem than feminist itself, I am not the problem here, feminism is the problem here, do you understand?
Those are definitely serious issues and I don't blame you for being against feminism. But keep in mind that not everything you're talking about is necessarily because of feminism. Some of it is leftover chivalry from an outdated time, which both men and women are responsible for perpetuating.
yeah that's true, I think that both genders should be equal, I don't think they are tho, female gender is benefited in some aspects, and male gender is benefited in other aspects, but what I am saying is that there's a big feminist movement full of hatred and misandry, and there's no male movement, imagine if men started a movement hating on women, that would be the collapse of our society. So I am glad that we agree in most of the aspects about this, any other right you want for your gender?
I agree, if there was a similar men's movement, that would be a disaster. Which only goes to show even more why feminism needs to stop. There are things I want for women and for men but the most important thing to me is to find peace and mutual respect between the genders.
I agree with that I am glad to know that there are some smart woman out there who are not feminists
If you don't mind me saying, I think something that would really help men get through to women would be for them to be really clear about what they mean when they say they are against feminism. Many women still consider egalitarianism to be a type of feminism and that can make them defensive when people rail against feminism in general. I think what helped us come to an understanding was the differentiation between radical feminism and egalitarian feminism and the understanding that you're against radical feminism, not against women's rights, and that I'm for egalitarianism, not radical feminism. Getting conversations and statements off on the right foot by making these kinds of clarifications right away could really help the genders communicate and realize that they're not actually enemies.
woman rights are already achieved, that's why feminism became this, so I ask you again, besides of abortion rights, what other right do you think men have and women don't?
I didn't say that women had fewer rights than men (abortion issue aside). That's not at all what my comment was about.
ah sorry I misunderstood it, my English if I don't write 100% properly is because enlglish is not my native language xD.
So yeah I am not against equal rights, in fact I want a world in wich no woman are opressed, prostitution is banned in my country, thankfully, no more women exploded and selling their bodies for money
That's totally okay. Your English is excellent for a second language. I can only hope to be so fluent in a second language someday (trying to learn French and Italian.)
Exactly, I know and appreciate that you do care about women's rights. I think it's important to help women understand that being against modern feminism isn't the same thing as being against women's rights. There is just SO much confusion surrounding this entire subject, so many different definitions being used, and some women may not even be aware that radical feminism exists. People are really confused. Not every woman who calls herself a feminist means badly or is against men.
yeah I really want a peaceful world for women, the fact that prostitution is banned in my country is a relief, I don't understand why so many women wants to sell their bodies for some money, that's just sad. Prostitution is legal in your country? I heard Spanish is hard to learn for English speakers.
Here in the U. S., prostitution is only legal in the state of Nevada. Generally prostitution is illegal here. Personally I don't have that big a problem with prostitution if the woman chose it, if it is a safe and respectful environment where the woman is in control. But sex trafficking, forced prostitution, and prostitution associated with drugs are really serious problems. I think Spanish may be a little tricky for some English speakers because of some of the sounds, like the rolling of the rs. Personally I can't roll my rs, so I don't have a very good accent when I try to speak Spanish. Also here in the U. S., schools put very little emphasis on learning second languages. Some study of other languages is required, but students rarely become fluent. One of those dumb things about the U. S.
I think prostitution should be always banned, Sex shouldn't be a business.
I was thinking a little bit about what you said about abortion, what happens if for example the mother wants to abort but the father wants to have a son?
That's a tough situation, and unfortunately there is no perfect solution. I think the woman should take the man's opinion into consideration as much as she can, but the final decision must be hers. It is her body, after all. If anyone is going to make the final decision, it has to be her. However, I believe that men should also have the option to refuse their parental rights and responsibilities if they wish to (effectively giving them the right to have an "abortion" as well).
A child is not "her body" he can decide for her body but she cannot decide for a human life different that her life
Her body is the one to endure the pregnancy, not his.
wow that comment is so feminist, again, a kid is made by 2 persons, and it's not part of the women body, for things like that is that you feminists fail in every debate, it's so selfish to claim that, you are completely ignoring the son and the father
It is part of the woman's body. It is literally connected and has a HUGE impact on the woman's body and her life. How can you ask that I treat the situation as though the father is equally affected by the pregnancy? That's simply not the case.
he is not physically affected, but it's mentally affected
Women are affected both physically and emotionally. Men are affected, yes, absolutely, but women are affected more directly and more intensely. If acknowledging that makes me a feminist, then maybe feminism got a few things right after all.
no, feminism doesn't have things right, maybe 1 or 2 things, but the whole feminist movement is just ridiculous, is time for you to accept that fact
I did accept it. I was against modern feminism before I ever spoke with you. But if you're going to call me a feminist for acknowledging that women are more intensely impacted by pregnancy than men are, then I'm not so sure anymore.
and what's the problem with that? that's the natural way of things, women are the ones that carry their son by natural design, not by men's fault.
It's nobody's fault. But the person who is more greatly impacted by something should have the right to make the final decision about it.
no, both have the right to make the final descision, if both parts don't agree, an abortion shouldn't be done, unless it's a risk for health or the result of a rape
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this particular issue.
and that's fine, we can disagree and still talking in peace right?
Sure.
thanks for understanding the reason that I am against feminism. What do you think about men's emotions? do you think it's okay for a men to cry?
Yes, of course. Men are human and they have emotions, and I think it's disgusting that men are encouraged by society to repress their feelings and told not to cry. Of course, neither women nor feminists are the specific perpetrators of that particular issue; it is a deeply rooted problem within our society as a whole. Men are often the ones encouraging their sons to "be a man" by hiding their emotions, so these expectations aren't necessarily coming from women. This is an issue both genders need to tackle in unison, and it probably starts with parenting.
Yeah I was told many times over the internet that being a man meant being emotionless, and that's wrong, men can be sad and can be weak as well, some people told me that is not right for men to cry, some other told me that it's okay to cry, and I find it sad that a men can't show their emotions. I cry often and I don't feel less manly because of that, the "image" of men being stronger in all things is a rudimentary way of thinking, I think men should support women with their emotions and viceversa,
I agree. Emotions are human, not female.
thanks for being kind and don't being mad for talking about feminism, most girls will get mad if I even talk about feminism, they feel like I am against them for being against feminism, and I don't know how to change those girls minds
I think you need to explain to them exactly what it is about feminism that you don't agree with. Like I said before, different people define feminism in different ways, and many people still believe that feminism is just about equality. If the women (or men) you're talking to believe that feminism is still just about the fight for gender equality, then of course it will be upsetting to them to hear that you're against feminism.
you keep going on with that "equality" nonsense!! tell me other reason why women are not equal than man! you only mentioned abortion wich is not even a unequality problem, women are ALREADY equal than men and in some aspects they have more privileges, so I don't know what do you mean when you said that women are "unequal" to men
I didn't say women don't have equality. That's not what I said. Man, how many times are we going to do this? Please, please, I'm begging you, read my comment again and try to understand what I'm actually saying there. Some people think that feminism = believing that men and women are/should be equal. That doesn't mean those people think that women AREN'T currently equal, it means they think it's a good thing that they ARE. You REALLY misunderstood my comment. I'm trying to give you advice about how to COMMUNICATE with other people about the subject of feminism, and explain WHY some people may understand what you say when you speak to them. This is literally the third time this has happened. Please, I'm not promoting feminism with this comment. I'm explaining WHY some people still do- because they literally have a different definition of what feminism stands for than you do.
You've clearly lost all interest in communicating about this peacefully, so let's just call it quits.
yeah, that's what feminist says all the time, people like you (feminists) always loose a debate, so they want to quit because they start to running out of argument, s I already showed that I am peaceful person except with feminist people like you, you are not gonna have many internet friends talking like that, I don't have any problem with other people unless they are feminists or idiots
Either you're pretending to misunderstand what I'm saying for some reason, or the language barrier is getting in the way here. But you took a meaning from my comment about defining feminism that really wasn't there. I don't support modern feminism and I think I've made it clear that I care about men's issues. I've brought up men's issues that I care about and supported you in the ones that you've brought up. Yet every time I try to talk about definitions, you assume that I'm supporting feminism, and you lash out. It's really frustrating and unfair.
it would be better if you just actually stop being feminist, simple as that, you can still fight for women "rights" without being a feminist, men don't have their own movement, because the simple fact that we won't be listened by anybody, and feminism is the cause of that fact, because they always ignored men issues
But I'm not a feminist! I never said I was a feminist. I'm just talking about the subject of feminism, as a topic. Discussing it doesn't mean I am one. You're discussing it too, and you're not one. When I advise you on how to talk about it with other people, I am not talking about ME, in any sense whatsoever.
don't worry everything is fine, I get mad sometimes when I talk about feminism
Please don't take it out on me.
Everything is not fine. Your behavior is hostile. I wouldn't call that "fine".
well you can get mad at me if you want, I don't really care, I think you are just another mad and angry feminist who is being hated for most of men and you don't want to assume that feminist is destroying our society, you don't wanna see the truth that it is in front of your eyes, I think your ideas are the problem here, not mine, I am hostile towards my enemies, and if you consider yourself a radical feminist you are my enemy
Okay. That's what you think.
without the grace of God people are like animals. there will ALWAYS be divisions when there is no one heart and one spirit.
Good job on this take.
I never participated in it.
I think you should just ignore the arguing people.
right on!
Feminimist holocaust would help ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).
*Feminist, d'oh i need to slow down my writing.
Good mytake!