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The Personal and Societal Benefits of Girls Taking the Initiative With Guys in Relationships (Page 2)
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Yup seems pretty accurate. With how far we've progressed I'm surprised that a lot of us is still stuck with old ways of finding a partner.
And yeah with the whole metoo thing I can definitely see that scaring off some guys that actually has something to lose. Just recently a big gaming YouTuber was accused of sexually assaulting a girl. 2 years ago...
She wrote a whole article basically defaming him and he ended up posting something explaining what happened with the help of his lawyer. Which pretty much shut her up.
I actually searched for sex consent waivers on Google and downloaded a template just in case lol.
Cause you never know if a girl will try to pull some bs.
I agree, but I would like to compromise:
If you ask a guy out and he accepts, then I would advice you to let him take it from there, at least for the first date. Let him take the traditionally male role and at least plan the date itself.
No matter what you think about gender roles, no matter if you think they're cultural or biological, fact remains that they are the way they are, and most men (most, not all) still like to feel like men. Letting him "be the man" will make him a lot more comfortable around you from the start.
I don't think the man should make all the decisions and arrangements for all dates because a relationship is a two-way street. It is both fun to share in what you like/love, and if there is any relationship to speak of in the future, then it is a good dynamic to continue.
My personal feeling in regards to the asking, if it was me, is to sometimes make it known that I/the girl is interested in the guy. She might say something possibly like, "Hi, so nice to see you again. How have you been? Hey I was thinking about you, and I thought maybe we should go out for [coffee] sometime. Would you be up for that?" If he says enthusiastically yes in any way... "Ok, well I'll give you my number. Give me a call sometime." And then there is no way I am calling him, even if I have his number, we both exchanged them. This shows him there is interest, yet he now also gets to contribute, decide if he wants to go forward.
But I will not let him plan every date. That's got to be a give and take. The first one could be either's specific idea. But I would love for him to make suggestions, have a plan, so that I get to know his tastes and personality. I don't want to jump out of a plane, I'll say no to some things, but other than that, both parties should be super flexible and open.
P. S. I've never met a man and within seconds or minutes asked him out. It has to build up, get a feel for each other. And I've had lots of those - work associate, client, customer, store clerk, fellow student in college, etc.
Would you agree with all that?
I would, but I wasn't saying that he should be the one planning ALL the dates, I was mainly talking about the first date.
Obviously, every guy is different, and not every single individual man in the world is going to care about that, but a huge majority is going to want to take on the traditionally male role in a romantic relationship.
I've seen a lot of women being way too focused on their independence and confidence that they forget about making their partner feel needed. They are afraid of asking them for help with anything because they feel like they must always be able to do everything on their own, in turn making their partner feel useless. It's important to have your own life away from your romantic partner, and it is important to compromise and share the responsibilities, but men want to feel useful and needed, and some women completely forget that because they're too wrapped up in being independent.
This turned into a bit of a ramble, but I hope I got my main point across anyway.
Yeah, point taken.
I'm a bit surprised you feel so strongly about that given your age. Do you think Sweden leans more traditional or progressive in dating?
My example gives the man the opportunity to do the asking, so I still think there's nothing wrong with both or either making suggestions, such as, "Hey, there's a new restaurant I've been wanting to try. Do you like [x]?" This isn't about control as much as sharing ideas equally/letting that man know that he doesn't shoulder all the relationship-driving responsibilities.
But you bring up a valid ooint about independence. Which is only going to become even more pronounced, in this time of living singly, the later marriage age, etc. Often the longer a person remains or lives single, the more set in their ways and comfortable with only their methods, they become. Compromise and independence are things we all rail against, in varying degrees. It's only human.
Sweden is definitely very progressive when it comes to most things, including dating.
And I wasn't really talking about having "control", I was talking more about the general attitude of encouraging women to be more like men, which is not wrong in of itself, but it definitely devalues feminine qualities. As women as being encouraged to take on the traditionally male role in a relationship, that will eventually have the effect of making the man feel less valued himself.
When I say "be more like men", I'm simply referring to taking on more masculine behaviors.
Awesome Mytake like highlights each point to its best i wish i could put my ideas in writing as you did here.. Best line Grab life by balls but metaphorically painfull😂 all in all this a good one I wonder no girls commented on it yet waiting for the reactions
Good take, very balanced on both sides. I still think a man approaching a woman will make the stronger impression than vice versa, as it taps into women's deep-seated desire for male leadership. But more women taking initiative can only be a good thing, as it creates more opportunities for romance that might otherwise have been missed.
Yes it works. There is no judgement. Lived through the 70's It was definitely a thing then part of the original women's liberation which has since morphed into feminism. Go for it and see where it takes you.
Ooooh. So it's actually retracted, eh? Interesting.
That's a nice idea in theory.
However here's the problem.
1. Why would women risk potential rejection and making themselves vulnerable. It's easier to let men do the approaching while retaining the power of choice.
2. Men have no choice but to approach. If he doesn't it's highly unlikely he'll find a partner. Women are aware of this and as I said before, this gives them the power of choice.
I doubt they would give that up for the sake of equality and all that.
3. This is my own observation of this " women should do x because equality" notion, because it seem to me that women only want equal treatment when their status is perceived as "inferior".
However , when it comes to romantic/intimate/sexual relationships, women have all the power.
If you want women to collectively start taking the initiative , men would start to collectively abstaining from it.
Until then , this is just a nice dream
Have to start*
It isn’t any power or choice if you are only choosing from what happens to show up. Being oriectyve is the only real way to have choice. Of course anyone can reject you hit at least you went after what you want
This is my opinion I’m not saying this bc you Should agree, I was just saying it bc I have a kind of opposite view point 😊
If you're choosing from what happens to show up, you're still choosing which gives you power over those being chosen.
You can have this opinion.
But as I said , if you want women to start taking the initiative, men will have stop. And you know that's not gonna happen
Also.
Someone on g@g asked if chivalry is still attractive to women.
Most women said yes which kinds proves me right.
Abstaining will do nothing except make those few men who do ask more popular and there won’t be a sudden upsurge if women asking.
Equal rights has to do with legality. Not dating norms.
@Anoniemus
Who is talking about rights?
It just makes sense for people to make a love on their own behalf in life. in my opinion.
And in my opinion Waiting around is not a real” choice”. People may have differing views on this. Cool. I was only responding with what I think bc the commenter said something about choice.
And no one has to stop asking anyone oit in order for other people to do it. Women do it already. The less taboo it is the more they will. No one is saying guys Should stop. Or at least I’m not. I’m saying if you want to ask someone out, go ahead. if you don’t want to, don’t.
But there is no intrinsic meaning or value to either gender imitating. It’s just what people get used to. Then they build it up into some kind of mystical so power.
The world won’t fall apart if women are not passive in their dating life. and relationships won’t decay. If people out so much meaning on the very first step thats going to strain any relationship anyhow~ no matter who asks who.
Again in my opinion 😊
@anomiemus yes I am aware of this being the consequence. Which is why I think it's a fantasy.
@VIVANT yes waiting around is a choice.
Women could choose to approach and some do.
Most dont because being passive is less stressful.
Not to mention most women prefer men do the approaching.
@VIVANT He did when he said “for the sake of equality”.
And waiting around is a choice. Just like indifference to the suffering of others or ignoring what is going on is a choice.
You choose to do nothing. Greg’s understood what I meant.
@anoniemus we are talking about social equality not legal equality.
Both are separate subjects and both are complete bullshit and a fairy tale for idiots.
Men and women differ in how we interact with each other. Nature doesn't care about equality of any kind. Men have always done the approaching and women have always been approached.
The only way to change that is through evolution , which would take hundreds of thousands or even millions of years or
Through extreme societal and legal pressure that would necessarily mean the loss of individual freedom and basic human rights.
Iniating is like swimming up stream, it's just easier to move with the current, and generally nobody male or female likes to approach a stranger.
I believe there is choice even in being the person who is being approached, as rejecting the person who approached you is always a choice. So regardless if woman are iniating or not, if they are being approached, they are being given a choice. Iniating runs a high risk with minimal actual harm, rejection can feel like a punch in the gut, and God forbid you're attractive. Just the idea of rejection can be crippling for someone's ego. So for sure it can be healthy to build some character, great for any body regardless of gender.
Social equality IS legal equality which isn’t bullshit. That’s moronic.
Social norms will change when society does. As of now, more women are asking men out than before.
Social and legal are different
For example, legally no one is allowed to assault another person.
Socially if a woman hits a man it's no big deal.
If a man hits a woman it's considered dishonorable and will usually result in the man getting a beating.
Women are probably asking men out more because men are scared of false accusations
They’re the same. www.longdom.org/.../...articles-ppts-list-112.html
Some women maybe. Others profess that they do it because they enjoy it, feel liberated etc.
Are you just naturally pessimistic?
Ok here's another example of why it's not the same and it ties into the topic of who approaches.
Chivalry. It's a social arrangement that men take the initiative.
Legally men are not obligated to conduct themselves in a chivalrous manner.
But it's socially enforced by women because they like it and men oblige.
Pessimistic about what?
Great take , definitely it will help when the girl is more extrovert and the guy is introvert , a strong independent woman doesn't fear asking her lover out.
The same could be said about a strong confident man.
@Anoniemus
So Anoniemus, despite your name you seem to be a direct woman. Are you the one downvoting every single positive comment on here?
Yes, I am. They're not positive: a lot of them make assumptions or mistakenly assume that if more women approached, they would be ones that would be approached.
Or they're bigots that I've dealt with.
Wow! I could not have said this any better. I do wish women would take the initiative. My first girlfriend did and that was the best and most loving relationship I've ever had.
I agree there's nothing wrong with the woman taking the initiative to pursue the man and not just wait for him to pursue her a lot of men including myself enjoy it and it makes me look at the woman with even more respect for her openness
"it makes me look at the woman with even more respect for her openness"
Bravo, MrD. EVERY GIRL NEEDS TO SEE THIS.
great thing you wrote there i didn't think i would read all of it but i did thank you
Thanks. That was short for me. I know many people don't want to read much nowadays. I'm not going down without a fight though. I believe in using one's brain. Humans cannot live on sound bytes alone.
I think the numbers and bolding might have helped. I did that consciously.
They did help and personally the topic is one that really interests me (it has to do with the pros and cons of feminism) and seeing that a girl is saying that girls should also take initiative feels great so yea glad i read that and since you usually writed things imma follow you
gonna be honest, at this point in time, could not retain a single piece of information, but a girl giving a shit goes a long way, I long for romance, I'm one of those that need to be chased, not the chasee, sex doesn't mean anything, but love does, I can't be the only one
Why, cause you were stoned or tired?
I think you mean "I'm one of those that need to be chased, not the chaseR"?
"sex doesn't mean anything, but love does, I can't be the only one" I love this. 💛
sorry I was drunk, Friday night lmao, I don't even remember commenting lol
Aah, yeah that's a logical one.
Np, don't worry about it.
sorry again I didn't mean for anything offensive or slip ups or anything
No worries. I didn't take offence.
This is an absolute masterpiece @AmandaYVR. Outstanding!
Wow. Really? Thank you so much! 💐
Well it’s realistic and pragmatic. Feminism has changed modern society. Okay. But a “change” doesn’t necessarily mean there aren’t drawbacks with new rules.
For example I am so glad you acknowledged the very real problem that men are more gun shy on approaching women and/or making a move thanks to #metoo and everything else.
Although the metoo hype train has died down a bit it still has lingering impact on how men calculate taking a risk approaching a woman. The only way to counter balance this is for women to take more responsibility and send stronger signals/make a move.
But you some deep thought into the decent males POV on this. That takes effort and I applaud that.
Thank you. I really appreciate that. It's nice to recognize each other. Yes, I do feel I understand the good men out there.
This gender division tension really needs to end.
I know just what you mean. Totally agree.
Here's another you may like...
Why dont males stand up for me at my work when other males bully me? ↗
I would like to know more details on exactly what happened with the “other guys” bullying her. Obviously she was upset. But I really like to know what they said and did.
If it was really that bad I wouldn’t tolerate that shit.
Yeah the only way the gender tension crap is going to end is if strong WOMEN stand up to this modern feminism bullshit. Guys are easier for feminists (and white knights) to dismiss. But smart women need to call out what this crap is doing.
Also guys need to stop believing that if a female who approaches them is an automatic green light to go straight to the bedroom.
I confess I was guilty of making that bad assumption 2 or 3 times when I was much younger (early 20s). That was wrong and I can see how dissuaded women from making a move.
However if it gets more common place to have women to approach men then men will be more comfortable (and respectful) on how they react.
But you are 100% right about how guys feel confused if she is just friendly/nice or interested in more if a girl approaches.
I had a woman take the initiative with me, when I was very young (21 or 22), she was model-quality gorgeous (had even done a nationwide tv commercial) and I had no idea how to behave. It was so rare, I didn't know what to do with myself and probably came off as a total dork.
If I had that one to do over again, I would have shown more appreciation for her taking the intitative, and asking me out (first time and last time that ever happened) and would have been a lot less awkward.
Strong assertive women are a turn on, sure. But... right now, there's a hurdle that men have to be able to cross, to date. They must at least have the minimum amount of self-confidence to be able to approach a woman and ask her out.
If women start asking men out en masse, that hurdle is removed, and a bunch of cowardly, low-testosterone-having, insecure, man-babies will be permitted entry to the dating pool, instead of being incentivised to grow the fuck up.
Bingo. Than you for pointing this out. It's the truth.
The point is for women to take responsibility for what they want , not for women to groom men to behave as they wish. Women don’t need to be passive in order for men to find their voice.
An important point for women isn’t about grooming, it’s about vetting properly. It’s about filtering through the type of men she doesn’t want and the ones who aren’t good for her / will be more trouble than their their worth and securing a relationship with someone who is truly compatible with her. I would say this also falls into the category of taking responsibility for what she wants.
@MzAsh "I would say this also falls into the category of taking responsibility for what she wants."
I agree. It's the en-masse thing that would scupper OP's plan. Women aren't great at determining when a man is an insecure manchild, or not. They've never had to be. It's a lesson they were never forced to learn. By all means, if a girl knows that some guy she likes has the requisite maturity and confidence to ask other girls out, then she can absolutely take the initiative, and do what's best for her. But far too many (especially younger) girls, just don't know. I'd genuinely be worried they approach some angry bitter incel who ordinarily would never have approached a girl, just because they think he looks fit.
Exactly. I’m glad someone who is a man understands this.
Whoever initiates everyone has to be careful about who they are dating. All genders. No matter who. Whoever is asked out has to be careful. I don’t think asking someone our, is telling if anything. Both people should contribute to the relationship they want. And if they don’t , reasonable people will move on.
Being asked out doesn’t take away the need to pay attention. Women are plenty used to doing that and leaving control to the other person, does not in any way prepare a person for a relationship.
I was under the impression the post is referring to simply encouraging any gender not based on sex be open to getting the ball rolling. .. not suggesting any one taking over.
Go with it if it makes you sleep at night
@Belgie
It's on you, if you interpret what I said as women taking over en masse. There are many men who are so quick to come to erroneous conclusions, 'if this then that' type of thing. I think very carefully about how I word things, to try and avoid such misunderstandings. Alas. I don't want all women to do all the initiating and driving, etc. How crazy do you think I am? I'm advocating balance, sharing the load and responsibility, and fun. People get better with practice, and they grow into better people for it.
Yes, there are a lot of insecure young men right now, but if they are approached and shown a little kindness and interest, it will help them to feel better about themselves, and they may in turn learn how to do it better themselves. Safety isn't enough of a deterrent. Don't go to each other's homes! That's Dating101. Meet in a public places, for coffee and whatnot.
"Women aren't great at determining when a man is an insecure manchild, or not." Huh? Don't know where you get that idea. Immaturity is not difficult to detect.
All these references to people "not knowing" - well they'll learn, won't they. That's the point of going through life and doing things.
@VIVANT
A voice of reason. You're so good. Hallelujah. 🙏🏻
How would they be incels if girls are initiating with them? This makes no sense at all. It would probably mean the world to these guys if a woman approached them! Maybe your prejudices are just as harmful as you think theirs are.
@DonCachondo He’s not being prejudiced. They were incels BEFORE being approached.
Do you think their anger and insecurity will go away since a woman is approaching them? That’s juvenile.
And he’s right. Just like in animals when the female vets out the strongest males from the weak, this was a process that allowed women to recognize the confident from the insecure. If he’s confident in this area, he’s likely confident in many others. An insecure man here can be confident in some areas but it’s risky.
Women should definitely approach who they want to especially if they’re interested. I have not ever nor will I ever be interested in a man who is insecure about this area.
@Anoniemus "I have not ever nor will I ever be interested in a man who is insecure about this area."
Bravo
@Anoniemus Like I said, prejudice. You assume their insecurity and rage are essential to their nature when it's in fact an extended emotional state caused by trauma or a drawn-out history of bad experiences. Good experiences can help them heal. Compassion can help them connect. Incels may be fucked up human beings, but any human being could become fucked up. Essentialism is dangerous. A person is much more the product of they're environment than a set of genetic directives endowed at birth.
their* lol
@DonCachondo
"@Anoniemus Like I said, prejudice. You assume their insecurity and rage are essential to their nature when it's in fact an extended emotional state caused by trauma or a drawn-out history of bad experiences. Good experiences can help them heal. Compassion can help them connect. Incels may be fucked up human beings, but any human being could become fucked up. Essentialism is dangerous. A person is much more the product of they're environment than a set of genetic directives endowed at birth."
Bingo. SO GOOD. That's a drop the mic moment. Nice work, Don.
What is pessimism is to think that all peoples' characters are set in stone.
@DonCachondo Lol. You’re making assumptions about them because not all are like that. I was speaking about the particular type of incel who is angry and vitriolic. That is the one he is talking about. Again, a woman meeting him isn’t going to make him any less angry or hateful.
That’s irrational. He has to deal with his issues before then.
What is up with the ignorance? Who said all incels are the same? He was talking about a specific type of incel which exists. YOU are assuming that I’m making assumptions about them. Hilarious. XD
@Anoniemus No, it's not irrational. You simply don't understand the thought process of a man. A man appreciates nobody more than the person who took stock in him when he was down and out because it's incredibly rare treatment, especially from a woman.
Also, it's not like only the most extreme incels are angry and insecure. Most of them are. The most extreme ones are an easy target and a small minority of incels, so there's no point discussing them.
Aww thanks ^.^
1) Not all men are the same nor think the same. That's an assumption.
2) Here are my thoughts. The majority of incels understand that they are luckless at dating but do not go to the extremes of Elliot Rodgers.
You can't deny that there are different types of incels. I doubt most are angry at or towards women: they understand that the issue is with themselves. If you're not getting attention from women, how would that be society's fault (aside from the inane societal expectations that are put on men)? There are women who do not abide by that and prefer men that differ, so that's no excuse. What a lot of men mistakenly think is that if most women ask men out, women would suddenly ask them.
It wouldn't be the case since there is still a large sample of men to choose from and she would likely desire the best one that she could get... which wouldn't be an incel. So those dateless virgins would still be dateless virgins even if the social norm changed to that of women being the aggressor.
I encourage women to approach but all these men on here are GRAVELY mistaken if they think that they would likely get a woman approaching them. It's false hope.
Great myTake. You hit several nails on the head. A world where more people listened to the points in your post would absolutely be better for people of both genders.
Awesome mytake, I couldn't find anything I didn't agree with.
i totally agree with you , it should be both side thing n not just the guys thing to ask a girl out...
Awesome take! Many respect for women who do this! 😇
I agree, I think the world would be a much better place if everyone just went for whatever would make them happy
👍🏻👍🏻🌺
I will not do all of the leg work. I will meet a man halfway and put equal effort.
That's good. I never said anywhere in this that women should take over and do all the work.
I didn’t say you did, I was just adding my two cents to the topic.
Ok good.
yeah most women don't do that so you're above the status quo nice job
@DonCachondo Yeah I mean in the early stages it does take a lot of self confidence... I can see why shyer women don’t/can’t. 5 years ago I wouldn’t have been able to but if you don’t try you don’t know 🤷♀️
@sillyfairy474 that's the spirit! If just the girls could understand that, avoiding put them between the sword and the wall
@Silverio_Stieger I think it takes some maturity to get out of the fear of rejection. You get older and decide you give zero f***s and life gets so much easier.
So, for the girls, this maturity you're talking about arrives at... 28, 30 yo?
I don't agree maturity is the issue.
It's more a mindset, insecurity, social stigma, lack of independent thinking.
It is said that female brains mature faster than male. IF that is the case, then girls should be learning earlier how to engage socially, etc. And that includes with the opposite sex. And I'm not saying the first part is de facto, but if it is, then there's no excuse, and they can't play both sides of the coin. That's my thinking.
Ok I reformulate, what's the average age for this female mind liberation?
@Silverio_Stieger I don't know about for others but it did for me about that time. Took a major life change and it completely changed me and my entire mindset.
Hope so, otherwise I'm damned! I mainly date girls from 19 to 22 yo. I'm so cursed 😅😅😅
Iij f I am single and a virgin woman who I may not ask out, but I still find slightly attractive were ti ask me out I would say yes 100% of the time. Obviously I won't say yes if I find nothing about her attractive. So if you like me and you think I am single then you have a decent chance of getting a date.
FYI, currently I am in a relationship which everyone I associate with knows.