The Personal and Societal Benefits of Girls Taking the Initiative With Guys in Relationships

[AmandaYVR]

The kisser and the kissee

I've been thinking about this topic, having seen many questions which dance around this idea, and today I decided to write about it. What am I talking about? This idea that men are still the initiators when it comes to asking girls out, driving the relationship, that it's always been that way and always will, and even some of the more incendiary ideas such as 'guys love the chase', 'wait for him to call you', and 'girls should hold back to make sure the guy is in it for the right reasons'. I think this is faulty reasoning, and here's why.

Benefits to Girls:

1. You cannot avoid being vulnerable. Don't make current or future partners pay for the mistakes or poor characters of those in the past. You have a good memory, I know, but your suspicions are not always founded, and it is not fair to bring this baggage into the present. You will corrupt all new relationships, with this mindest. And vulnerability is very endearing. I know, you're worried you will be taken advantage of. But so are they. You want something real? You want depth? You start. Be on the level. If there's one thing men consistently agree on, it's respecting a girl who is direct.

2. No risk, no reward. Taking risks, and dealing with the consequences of those decisions, good or bad, builds character. Going after what you want, and sometimes getting it, is one of the most surefire and authentic ways to build genuine inner confidence. And this is confidence that matters, not all that superficial external stuff.

2. "It's tradition." Tradition doesn't explain anything. It's something to fall back on it. It feels safe and comfortable, and yes, it honours the past. But it's not a reason. Society's changing. More women are in the workforce than ever before. More people are living singly (or with roommates or parents, but not in relationships.) Fewer babies are being born. The marriage age is increasing, the oldest it's ever been. Arranged marriages worldwide are at ~ 50-60%, but for everyone else, they're in the slog, looking for 'love marriages', trying to figure it out. The time of princesses is gone, and passivity gets you nowhere. Waiting around to be chosen, or rescued, sucks. "Rapunzel, Rapunzel, let down your hair." Isn't it about time the days of Rapunzel in the tower being rescued are gone? We've all heard the idea that Disney has ruined generations of girls. (I don't necessarily strongly agree, but many do.) You might get lucky sometimes, but mostly you'll miss out on life, and opportunity. Carpe diem. It's your life. No one's going to do it for you. And you shouldn't want them to. Grab life by the balls and go after what you want.

3. Adversity builds character. Hearing 'no' is not the end of the world. Guys are no more psychologically or emotionally equipped to deal with rejection than girls are. So other than practice, or societal norms, why should they be the only ones to hear it? It is part of all human experience. Eventually you'll hear a 'yes' and will be empowered by having taken the initiative. You also learn how to pick yourself up, and like water off a duck's back, keep on swimming. Being hurt in the past is no prediction of being hurt in the future (unless you pick the same types of people to get into relationships with.) Even if the other person doesn't act fairly or reasonably, what matters most is how you act. Your character, your honour is what you have to live with. You cannot control others or how they act, but you can take ownership and accountability for yourself (and being a better person.)

4. Don't do a power play. You might think it puts you at a disadvantage, but just because you show interest, doesn't give all 'power' to the other (and really, there is no power.) And the other person may resent you if they get whiff of this as being strategy.

5. 'The chase' doesn't work. (With most men. Don't believe me, check out the many prior polls and questions here.) If you deliberately hold back, tease, neg, it's going to turn off the good guys. The ones who don't play games expect you not to as well.

6. Not all men just want women for sex. It's not going to change anything in regards to finding out whether they want you for sex or something more meaningful. Just because guys tend to want more sex with more variety of partners, does not mean all men are only after sex. Whether you initiate or they initiate, agreeing or disagreeing about if and when to have sex is a decision to be made on a case by case or couple by couple basis. There are no shortcuts here. The more direct and honest and open both people are, the better. And if they're not? It's not going to make it anymore difficult just because you initially showed interest.

7. It's one of the original, relatively untarnished, mandates of #feminism that most people can get behind and agree upon - the power of choice (without gender stereotypes, limitations, prejudices, etc.) You want #equality? You can't have it without stepping up, taking action, and shifting some of the classic male relationship responsibilities over to yourself (and then vice versa - they have to step up, and be flexible and adapt too.)

8. Isn't more choice more fun? By being the initiator, you are able to pick from the widest pool possible, not just the ones who initiate with you. You will therefore be more attracted, more passionately motivated, and the payoff more enjoyable if and when it does work out.

Benefits to Guys & Society:

1. It fills in the gap where many guys are now too worried to initiate, because of big changes like the #metoo movement. They hear stories of men's lives being ruined. Always founded or not, men have very real concerns about #sexualharrassment claims. To many of them, they don't want to take the chance, it's just not worth the risk anymore.

2. Many men do not understand you. Your cues are too subtle. Many times, they cannot tell whether you like them, or are just being nice/polite/friendly. Especially in a professional or online setting. The digital games are a very slow play. Low risk, yes, but very calculated and lacking in substance and clear intention.

3. It's a compliment to guys. Is that really so bad? A compliment or an overture to guys can brighten their day. Even if they are don't reciprocate, or aren't available for a relationship, many are still polite enough to be nice, and tactful. And they spread this out into the world, making it a more pleasant place to be for everyone. Happy guys create happy girls (and vice versa.)

4. It takes some of the pressure off guys. They're already stressed out and confused enough in today's landscape as is. Why leave the success of the entire dating population up to guys, when we could effectively double the chances of success if girls also stepped up to be more proactive?

5. Men feel that women are so independent now. Many don't feel needed, wanted. They struggle to find their value and what they are to women. Being approached will give them information on who exactly they are appealing to, and confirmation that they are still desired in general. Maybe it is not for the reasons they once were. With women making their own money now, actually relationships can now be more honest, less pragmatic, more a result of true desire for companionship and love, not because of codependence. This type of understanding could solve a lot of things.

That's it, that's my two cents. Or 13.

"Just keep swimming, just keep swimming..."

[Unit1]

Fantastic article! About time women keep getting some more initiative. You brought an excellent point in having eliminated (financial) codependency and encouraging the "you want something, you go and get it (yourself)" motivation. I've said the latter myself and the former is why i admire women in the workforce.

now the young ladies have some real catching up to do. Good men will be taken fast like hot muffins by good women! So why not be one 😎

i still find it interesting how mostly the older women (late 30s, 40s etc...) are the encouraging type or the ones, who are fully able to go for a date without doubts or pulling back autonomously. No judgments whatsoever. you know - taking care of personal business.

[Unit1]

Thank you for the most helpful opinion 😀😀😀

[rebelsunshine]

"i still find it interesting how mostly the older women (late 30s, 40s etc...) are the encouraging type or the ones, who are fully able to go for a date without doubts or pulling back autonomously. No judgments whatsoever. you know - taking care of personal business."

This usually happens because attractive young females get PLENTY of advances from guys and lack the life experience and self-confidence gained from it to take the risks the OP describes so well in #1-3 of the benefits to girls.

[Unit1]

@rebelsunshine Right on target!

[spartan55]

I really can't find one thing to nitpick about this take, ME... Lol
Excellent work, you touched on several of the issues I have with the dynamic. You really seem to 'get it', and I wish there were more women like you.

[MzAsh]

Ideally, I don't see anything wrong with a woman taking the initiative - if she understands how to vet a man properly. Belgie's excellent comment points out what I'm referring to. A woman has to be careful not to end up with lazy man-children who will continuously not carry their own weight in the relationship, which is already bad enough as it is. Keeping the burden of performance at least partially on men during the first initial dating period also has it's benefits to both men and women. I suppose if a woman wants to as a man out, go for it, but make sure you are qualifying him firmly afterwards.

[MzAsh]

I should say qualify him both before and afterwards.

[AmandaYVR]

I don't disagree with you but vetting has to happen on both sides. There are many legitimate concerns that both sides have about each other, and the ability to discern, and read between what is said, appearances, etc. to dig to the real motivations... well that's unfortunate but it's all part of life.
By some accounts, women are better are 'the emotional stuff' of life. But even they have to learn things over time, so I don't think it's out of scope to say they should be engaged, active, and keeping their eyes open. That doesn't mean bowing out of taking initiative. It puts all the onus on men, but in the wrong way. You can hold men accountable later, for stuff that really matters. The beginning should be fun and light and mutual.

"Keeping the burden of performance at least partially on men" - Yes, agreed. Of course I don't mean to swap roles entirely, or for it to be one-sided. I never speak like that, in absolutes. I just strongly believe it's time for girls to step up and be more active in guiding relationships.

[AmandaYVR]

I was watching an interesting reality show last night, my favourite, Married At First Sight. Are you familiar? Strangers are matched and married, and cameras follow their 8 week experience. I find the counselling that they receive from the three experts (sociologist, sex therapist, pastor/marriage counsellor) to be the most fascinating aspects of the show. Anyway, last night the Pastor - a fantastic guy, very passionately invested in the couples, and who keeps it real - advised just the ladies, privately, "You know something about men. If you ladies don't set boundaries, men will find them. They'll set them. And they'll be low, let's be honest. But if you ladies are clear about what you want and need, well we don't actually mind living up to them." It was a fascinating piece of advice. Perhaps this is what you are illuding to. I'm not going to call men "man-children". That's demeaning and not my experience. Though I always encourage people to move out, stand on your own two feet, etc. Learn how to cook a meal, jeez. I haven't been with one of those since I was 16 and never again. But yes, maybe it's human nature to take the shortest routes, laziest methods possible? On the flip side, girls can be too demanding at times, their expectations not realistic. So it's a bit of a tightrope, the whole thing. Balance is key.

[R4zor]

I'm gonna vet your mom object

[VIVANT]

You know the main (and in my opinion worst) reason I hear from women not asking men out, is “ it will turn the guy off”.

And it isn’t a bad reason bc it isn’t true. Some guys will say women make that up but I’ve seen enough guys against being asked out, I know it isn’t a myth.

It is TRUE. Some guys WILL be turned off if a woman he was interested in, asks him out. But it is not all guys nor most guys and why would you want that 🤔

If a person is turned off by being made aware a person they are interested in, is interested in them and does not play games... they will not make a good partner. It’s best to find out sooner than later. Controlling behavior is never limited to one scenario. It’s going to pop up all over the place. Anyone who can’t handle direct communication is going to play mind games. If a guy wants to ask someone out Thsts great. But if he’s going to reject the woman for kit waiting for him to do it first, that is stifling and demeaning and entirely different.


As for the rest, much of what I think _ think_ overlaps with much of what you wrote. In any case I do not disagree with your points. 😊🌺

As for mine..

[VIVANT]

1 in my opinion it feels really empowering knowing you’ve done something important to you whether successful or not. And you will not be stuck wondering. even if you get rejected. It still feels good to get it done.

It prevents wasting time. I always think the reason women ask so many “ what does this mean” questions ( guys do too but I’m talking about women) is bc they don’t know What is happening. NOT bc guys see mysterious.

BECAUSE anything is mysterious if you don’t know what’s going on. And the brain will continue trying to fill in the blanks. Women ask questions bc they think they see expected to wait, instead of being expected to make a move. If she is the one planning on making a move, she wouldn’t Spend the next 50 hours wondering what he’s thinking. She’s just find out.

2 Likewise this whole men leading relationships seems to have the result of women can't ark questions sure tot bc if it was tine to know something or do something or even FEEL something, he’d let her know.. there are literally posts where women ask us it clingy for the girl to text first or to call him or ask him what he wants or shock tell him what she wants.. . And there are always people around who say yes it is. Both genders. And then all the posts complaining women play games. I always think promoting direct communication rather than blaming each gender for obstructing it, would be tine time better spent.

3 Rejection sucks for everyone its not something men are better equipped for. The only think that makes you stronger is going through it.

Everyone is a bit shy approaching people 🤷‍♀️so what. Everything we do is uncomfortable until we get better at it.

4 I think it is safer to approach a guy bc you are less likely to end up with guys who have been stalking you like prey. Guys with bad intentions are likely to calculate their moves. Those are not the guys you’d be asking out. And if you did they’d probably say no bc it messes with their game , so you dodge a bullet.

[VIVANT]

5 Asking someone out gives you time to decide what you want. If you are constantly in a position to say yes or no to what up for fear of missing out, this is very stressful and can lead to poor choices.

Knowing you will ask when you are ready, is very empowering for anyone. It’s why a lot of guys say like to initiate. In fact for many ( from pool of guys who dont like being asked out. Not from pool if guys) the reason they don’t like being asked out is bc they want to do it in their own tone and don’t like being caught off guard. Well #DITTO buddy 🙄

Lol I find it funny they can’t flip it around and see anyone can feel that way... But obviously that’s not all guys. And many who are , are willing to try to look at things differently if you talk it over. Some are not and that is their right.

6 in my opinion it’s good form to take responsibility for your interest rather than letting someone else decide

7 it makes it easier to say no when you are not interested bc you yourself have been rejected and you know it is just part of life and no one likes being jerked around.

8. Cutting through Mind games is WAYYYYY easier bc now you have been on both sides and it is no longer a mystery what it takes to ask out or call back or be reliable etc. makes it harder for guys who play games, to far away with it.

9 I think it starts things off on a more even setting which helps shape the respect following the course of the relationship.

It lets the guy know he’s not dealing with a child and it lets you the woman know you are respected as an adult with agency.. which is good for everyone. in my opinion

~~~Obviously some people enjoy a different dynamic. That is their prerogative. These are just reasons why me being me, I think it is good.

And I’m not saying it isn’t nice to be asked out ( though some women genuinely don’t like it , like some guys) but to not be ALLOWED to do it yourself is insane. Really just totally bonkers.

Good Take 😊🌺🌺

[Kurαȷ]

And it never occurred to you that you demanding for people to find your approach attractive and then making bitter and loaded assumptions when they don't may play a large part in why some people may not find your approach attractive?

[ShadowofRegret]

Those are some very good points Ms. VIVANT!😊

[VIVANT]

To be clear I am referring to simply encouraging any one- not based on sex -be open to getting the ball rolling. .. I am not suggesting any one gender taking over from the other.. Rather the benefit of no one being limited by gender. I focused on women bc we are talking about initiating and women are the ones pressured to be passive in dating. This does not mean I think men should be passive. I think we should all contribute to the relationship we want. And what that is will be different for different people and that is OK. I disagree with creating narrow avenues for how a person can assert themselves, to the point it obstructs the natural development of their personality.

[Kurαȷ]

You always had the right to ask anyone out, and that person always has the right to not find your approach attractive.
If someone says they don't find your approach attractive, they aren't "denying your right" to ask that person out, they just don't find the way you chose to appeal to them attractive.

You are making it sound like a man would only ever reject a woman who has approached him because he wants to make some sort of an arbitrary statement about how she shouldn't have done that because it's not her role.
And that's silly, people can have lots of legitimate, albeit subjective reasons, why they find different behaviors appealing or not.

[AmandaYVR]

Nice! I'm so happy you get it, Vivant. It's kind of simple, right?

These are my favourite parts from what you said:

"To be clear I am referring to simply encouraging any one- not based on sex -be open to getting the ball rolling. .. I am not suggesting any one gender taking over from the other.. Rather the benefit of no one being limited by gender. I focused on women bc we are talking about initiating and women are the ones pressured to be passive in dating. This does not mean I think men should be passive. I think we should all contribute to the relationship we want. And what that is will be different for different people and that is OK. I disagree with creating narrow avenues for how a person can assert themselves, to the point it obstructs the natural development of their personality.

It lets the guy know he’s not dealing with a child and it lets you the woman know you are respected as an adult with agency.. which is good for everyone.

I always think the reason women ask so many “ what does this mean” questions ( guys do too but I’m talking about women) is bc they don’t know What is happening. NOT bc guys see mysterious. BECAUSE anything is mysterious if you don’t know what’s going on. And the brain will continue trying to fill in the blanks. Women ask questions bc they think they see expected to wait, instead of being expected to make a move. If she is the one planning on making a move, she wouldn’t Spend the next 50 hours wondering what he’s thinking. She’ll just find out.

And then all the posts complaining women play games. I always think promoting direct communication rather than blaming each gender for obstructing it, would be tine time better spent.
8. Cutting through Mind games is WAYYYYY easier bc now you have been on both sides and it is no longer a mystery... makes it harder for guys who play games, to [get] away with it."

[VIVANT]

@AmandaYVR

Thank you 🌺

I have not read your response fully, but I’m happy to know it was recieved positively. I did not intend for it to be hostile, it seems a difficult subject on which to directly give a view Without casting offense.

And perhaps I should have been more delicate I’m not sure if That would it would hot have helped. But it is also exhausting having to constantly worry about being misunderstood in front of an audience that often seems very happy to misunderstand. Or at least likely to.

I think I prefer to say my peace, then fix any misunderstanding That may occur, after the fact. Perhaps not the best technique but less time consuming. 🤷‍♀️

I’d like to respond to @Kuraj first, then I will be sure get back to you 😊😊

[VIVANT]

@Kurαȷ

I will respond when I can, it won’t be for a while. But by tomorrow I believe.

I think definitely there were some misunderstandings, and perhaps as I said above some places I could have been more careful to be clear and Less hasty. Part of the problem is I was on the app and I can’t see anything once writ down. Very frustrating, that.

You did in places Make some fair points for the way you took what I was saying, though I had not intended things to come out that way, that is not your error.. So I would not say you were wrong or confused , only that I worded it badly.

In other places thee was definitely some unfair assumptions in your part. But easy enough to clear up 😊😊

[VIVANT]

@ShadowofRegret

Thank you ☺️

[spartan55]

@VIVANT
Thank you. I HATE that mindset and line of excuses. Guys who get turned off by that are too much of an outlier to even be in the discussion.

[blueonblack22]

@VIVANT men are deeply conditioned to approach women all our lives. Simple reason is 99.99% of us have to or we got lonely.

However we know women approach and yes we really do like it but for many of us it comes as a shock. A few of us have horrible experiences with women being facetious because they wanted to use us for a dark ulterior motive (make the guy they really want jealous).

Not saying that happens all the time. But for many guys this has really happened and once we figured out the truth it was pure agony.

But to be fair @AmandaYVR brought up a good point early in her take that “Don't make current or future partners pay for the mistakes or poor characters of those in the past.”

So I guess men could do a good job (my past self included) of how we react to woman approaching us.

Also I painfully confess that a much younger me was guilty of thinking I would get quick sex if a girl approached. After age 28 or so it struck me how f*cking disrespectful that must of been to the girl. I regret and repented of that.

Guys need to be taught to never automatically think that it automatically means a girl just wants sex if she approaches. If that really is the case she will likely initiate everything. But she usually wants to date first.

[blueonblack22]

Correction “Men could do a BETTER job on how we react when a woman approached us.”

[The_Sword]

the only memorable relationships I've ever had, were with women who initiated the contact and participated equally in two-way communication. The latitude provided by breaking the conventions of a scripted gender stereotype, which are otherwise usually imposed (or initiated from the block of feminine standards, and coercing each other to hold to a social convention of shared standards with which to compare 'wins' in the sexual marketplace), are largely one-sided expectations, for behavior which is now even denigrated for ideological reasons, even after it had been induced by particular women (ie. the low cut tank tops that feminists use to force men to avert their eyes away-from, so they can feel empowered to disguise their neo-colonialism as a defiant and defensive reaction to being oppressed by the male gaze--thus rationalising their vulnerable narcissism in a self-fulfilling prophecy of their accusation-seeking entrapment): breaking through all that socially constructed red tape, maintained by women largely conforming to a dogmatic orthodoxy of standard expectations : allows for a unique form of participatory authenticity, where responsibility for defining your needs and wants clearly and within a process of open negotiation, as the communication deepens and develops through a series of self-defined voluntary exchanges, is probably more important for women than it is for men: because power-plays of passivity, have a corrupting influence in terms of potentially growing self-deception (which sadly, has also become institutionalised via the ideologies of identity politics and feminism, as women have relegated ownership of their themselves, in order to use their identity as the excuse to continue their decadence of irresponsibility and identity-consciousness paradigm, that makes them immune from self-reflection, but also allergic to taking responsibility (because if your identity makes it impossible for you take concede blame for anything, there is likewise no possibility of ever exhibiting responsibility: being the 'cause' to anything, is forever lost as its relegated onto the 'perpetrator' identity)). Developing participatory muscles, leads to humanising your own communication, dealing with probing and discovering the how to interpret the layers that exist within people, and becoming responsible for interrogating and discovering the array of compatability, not merely being a passive client of human transaction between two sex roles.

[VIVANT]

Yeah , basically. I agree.

[DonCachondo]

Dude. Paragraphs. Indentation. Please use them.

[AmandaYVR]

@DonCachondo Yes!!

[DonCachondo]

haha u got my back sis ^.^

[AmandaYVR]

@DonCachondo I followed you recently. I agree with your judgement.

[DonCachondo]

haha you say that now ;) just wait...

[GraveDoll]

I dont think this approach works for all women... and it never will. This approach i think may be for "soft" females.

I also may be the minority here but

Not all women are scared to approach but trying to downplay and muse with the male ego is really hard to beat down considering it something that been around forever.

It clear that I am a alpha female yet this approach doesn't work... and it never has. Im bold and blunt and the only time i have to play "soft" is when i want a guy to approach so i dont scare him off. My demeanor is rather icey but again i can't change who i am. It not a guard thing either im just pure logic and people find me cold.

We are fighting a lot of nature vs logic. very complex thing. As I can play the role of leader but will always perfer my man to be that part. If i took all the initiative. It just not a good thing being a natural control freak.

can you see where approaching a guy would be a prob?

so just randomly walking up to a guy is never going to work for a female such as myself.

But a male whose' "bold" enough to walk up to me is more of my type. I don't believe in dream guys or any of that silly stuff.

My current boyfriend approached me first. as all of my past bfs becasue if i did it myself trust me i tried

i would be single forever

[AmandaYVR]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion but I see things differently.

No one single approach will work for all people or all situations. Also I didn't write this intending it to relate to only the first approach. If you look at it more broadly (and at the questions posed here on gag) there are so many people trying to figure out what the other person is thinking, wanting. This wil never change, of course, and is a part of life, but a lot of this hanging back, on purpose or out of insecurity, is not necessary. It's playing into a social construct. These things are not set in stone. People can change if they are motivated.

You want a "bold" male, well there are enough of them. But why do you think they can only approach you and it doesn't work when you approach them? That still isn't clear from what you said. Something about your cold demeanor? Anyway, there are plenty of men who would appreciate being approached, or when they do begin a relationship, the women is vocal, active, forthright, not strategizing in order to alter the dynamic, or feeling that she must hang back, for whatever reason.

[AmandaYVR]

I do not at all subscribe to the concept of alphas and betas.
It is quite possible to exist where each member is part of a team, and contributes equally but differently.
When people say they are alphas, often the undercurrent of what they are wanting to say is "I want to be in charge. I will not be subservient to anyone." Yet who doesn't want to have their preferences an opinions equally weighed against another? You might think you are more deserving of this status (by birth right/inate personality?) but there are plenty of people who make good leaders while stil maintaining high levels of diplomacy, sensitivity and tact, or who function in teams of two without someone more dominant. I've spent time with many boyfriends, friends, family members, etc. (hanging out, vacationing or visiting each other, working on projects together) and usually no one was in charge, calling all the shots, and it works out just fine. Some people may take more responsibility in one area or another, but that is an entirely different thing than one is in control or entirely responsible (aka alpha.)

[GraveDoll]

I actully understood everything you said. I already use many of those steps in my everyday life not just with guys but all my relationships i have this thing called "check ins" it keeps communication open. so that is why i spoke particular on a part that strike me

and I do talk in the first person if you read any of my responses they are never just yay or nay. I dont speak just to speak and Im literal. again your right I could have easily JUST not respond. Maybe put only for those who have no 3d opinions and want to look at things only surface next time...

[VIVANT]

I am not responding to say correct or incorrect. I know we all have out own views of things and what works individually and how we see things behind ourselves and I’ve shared mine earlier 😊

.. I’m genuinely interested in why you referred to women approaching as being “ soft”

Why wouid this he something soft females do.

I don’t really split People by soft/ string bc I think dynamic and behavior shifts depending on context as we all have different strengths. Just curious what soft female in this context is.

Thanks! 😊

[GraveDoll]

@VIVANT

I actually got the term form a older lady when i was 17.

I dont smile. I'm not really for formalities. im very very type A and a bit too serious and i carry a demonor of "hardness" not even something Im mean to do.

anyway the older lady told me i should try to be nice and pretty not hard and pretty.

when i was 19 i didn't really get it but the older i get and the more i met people i understand what soft and hard means.

I'm not all smiles or "soft" in most of my deliverance. we live in a world where we do categorize people and no one can pretend we dont. i do know I will never meet the standards of the atypical soft women that we somehow magically suppose to have.

but when i use the term soft it not to insult it just a basic term to use just like bold and hard.

im not approachable or open. very literal and have a tendency to make people uncomfortable with out even trying. not much for formilites or small talk. my energy vibes screams that without me having to try. Many people tell me they thought i was mean before we even became friends or whatever. ANd no i dont come from a bad background. my parents are awesome and my sisters are my best friends. Not all "hard" people are broken people or trying to keep everyone at bay.

"soft" women are warm and inviting. They make people feel comfortable they give off a comforting vibe. they have better people skills that for sure and so those types can mangely that way. My sister is one she has a way with people i will never be able to muster.

so as hard as it may be some to accept we are all different and some will be better than others with those things.

i could never pull that off to save my life.
so when i use the term

hard vs soft.

it not to insult it just a truth that does stand with plenty of examples and studies to back it up.

[R4zor]

Spoilers women are more ego centered it's data not stupid assumptions

[Steve061963]

There is one particular area I would find the woman taking the initiative most helpful, and that is at my work place. No, not women I work with (there are now women where I work, it's a small computer shop with 5 guys). I see women on occasion that come in and after helping and talking to them for a bit, I think 'Id really like to go out with them and get to know them better'. But to ask them out could make them uncomfortable if they are not interested, and could possibly make them not want to come in again. I don't want to risk that, so I stay professional. If she is interested it would be awesome if she said something like 'ive enjoyed talking to you, if you are interested I wouldn't mind talking more over a cup of coffee sometime' or something to that effect. As far as a woman straight up asking me out, I'm really not sure how I feel about that. I guess it really depends on the approach. I think I'd want to have a bit of conversation first to kind of get to know them, like in the store example above, and then if they suggested coffee or a beer or something, that would be ok. Just don't come up to me and say 'Youre handsome, would you like to go out sometime?' I'd be looking for the exit as fast as I could.

[AmandaYVR]

Yep, well said.
I'd be very surprised if girls/women started doing this. For one thing, women are more wise than this, and that sounds like a high risk-low reward proposition. Few people will do that, and certainly even fewer women.

[Steve061963]

I'm assuming you're referring to the last part, the 'You're handsome, want to go out'. Not the asking out for coffee after conversation

[AmandaYVR]

Right.

[nella965]

From my experience as a girl, if you do not go after the guys that you want , you will never get your dream guy. You will only have mediocre relationships or guys that you aren’t totally attracted to asking you out. Go after what you like , don’t sit and wait And hope Prince Charming sweeps you off your feet because it may never happen

[AmandaYVR]

Yesssssss.
Why doesn’t every girl think like you?

[VIVANT]

I love it 💜💜👍🏻

[Williams223]

That's good to hear dear.

[R4zor]

I've never found women who asked me out unattractive actually I was stunned by their leadership inside their feminity

[AnonUser1902]

This post was really informative and really well written. I'm a female who has always loved putting myself out there and going after a guy if i was interested and taking the initiative. Don't get me wrong, i also don't mind the guy coming up to me, but this has made me feel validated about making the first move and made me feel more secure and more likely to approach. Thanks for the post :))

[AmandaYVR]

Yay!!

[Gummy_Cluster]

I will add to your advice.

1. Approaching a guy is scary the first time, but not nearly as scary as getting between a mother bear and her cubs. Give it a go. Talk to him, but bring your nunchucks.

2. Nice guys finish last, and so do wall flowers.

3. Walk up to a group of guys: "This might sound really dumb, but what's 'WhatsApp' ? I just met a guy online, and he asked if I have it. Can you help me? I really like him. Do all phones have it?"

(You now have five guys surrounding you trying to show you how smart they are.)

[AmandaYVR]

You know what you're doing, my girl! 🤔

Just a quick note - no gifs please. I can't stand them, the flashing, frantic nature. They mess up the calm of my pages. Thanks in advance.

[Gummy_Cluster]

I will never again mess up the calm of your ancient questions.

[blueonblack22]

This is OUTSTANDING! Nice work @AmandaYVR

I especially like your deeper insights about “Don't make current or future partners pay for the mistakes or poor characters of those in the past.”

That is extremely adolescent behavior to justify doing something wrong to an innocent person just because someone else harmed you in the past.

I’m not saying guys are scott free innocent on that behavior. It can impact men (mostly subconsciously) to make stupid decisions to harm an innocent women. However will we never get away with using the excuse that we are just emotionally “broken” so it’s okay to mistreat either people.

But (no offense) I often see women pulling that bullshit excuse more often than men. You are not scoring one for “the team” if you mistreat one man to just to get back at past bad experience the guy in front of you had nothing to do with. That has to stop.

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you so much. 🙏

All true. And it makes me sad. I want people to rise above, evolve, exhibit self-restraint, check themselves. In fairness, I know people like this, doing these things. Many on here, good friends of mine... but not enough.

Still, it gives me some amount of hope for the future of mankind, the effort I see, in some, to be better.

[sdrawkcabosmi]

Holy shit Amanda, that was a breath of fresh air. That point about the chase: just damn. I was talking to a friend about this the other day. I asked "Why am I expected to not play games with with women when that is literally all they do when we're pursuing them?" I wasn't on some poor me trip, I was legitimately questioning why that concept is the norm in dating.
I don't think the thought on it is going to change on a large scale anytime soon, so I see myself playing this game for a while, but I do love a challenge 😜

[AmandaYVR]

See, I knew I liked you.
I might judge quickly but I'm a good judge of character.
The next morning after I wrote the mytake I thought, "Aw man, am I goona be in trouble", and I was cringing a bit, but no, surprisingly not. So I'm glad I posted. It is an exercise in clarity to get my points across clearly and concisely (I'm still working on the latter.) Glad you, and others, appreciated it. I think it's important for people, even strangers out there, to know that not everyone's crazy, and not everyone's against you (whomever that 'you' may be, based on context.)
And if you find that one person (or more) who 'gets' you, appreciates you, even better. Good luck out there!

[DeeDeeDeVour]

I "broke the ice" to do this guy (and myself) a favor because I might have given him the impression I was unapproachable. I knew for a fact that he was interested in me but couldn't drum up enough courage to try. No, he's not the shy type nor inexperienced. I just noticed that he struggled for words and couldn't get his point across. Since I liked him anyway, I thought helping him would be helping myself out too. I'm not the nervous type. In fact, I wasn't nervous at all. I outright asked him out while we were just hangin' with friends.

[ecfresh]

Thank you, great take and I can tell you thought this through! This is well written and I hope others take this advice to heart. It comes back to #yolo. As you said, take a risk and get the reward. And personally this has worked, women have been direct with me and it’s been the spark that began a few relationships. Like you said, I don’t do well with hints so if they are interested, I want women to speak up.

One of the frustrations I have seen with this topic in the past is the concept of perfection. Too often we grow up with fantasies of the perfect romance where the knight rides up on the white horse and saves the vulnerable heroine, thus setting up a relationship where he leads and she follows always and happily ever after. This is a real world and a healthy relationship requires give and take. Like you said, too many women fear if they initiate the rest of the relationship they are stuck in the drivers seat.

[ecfresh]

Now while I have gone back and forth on the topic of energy and genders, I do tend to believe in the balance of masculinity and femininity. That means that I think nature puts men as leaders and women as followers and each energy role brings value. That being said I also believe the nurture and education of 2020 shows that people change roles throughout the day and many times women step into masculine shoes and take the lead. So again while I know a woman always having to be masculine drains energy faster in a day I think where she has skill and experience she should take the lead and step up in different aspects of the relationship.

Ultimately it’s called a partnership because it really does come down to two people combining to battle the world and challenging each other to be better individuals. So while that can start with a meet cute, a mistake, or with her taking a risk ultimately as they learn about each other and see what each can bring to the relationship the leading and following works itself out through communication and hard work.

Good ending. It’s love, honesty, communication, and hard work.

[Lliam]

Enlightenment and wisdom for the 21st century. Listen and learn, ladies and gents.

Brava!

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you so much, Lliam! And thanks for Leo. I loooove him. I feel all soft and squiggy inside.

[AmandaYVR]

I forgot I asked this question some time ago. Gave you MHO here.
This connects to this topic as well.

Guys, do you believe that being the initiators asking girls out makes you stronger in other ways? ↗

[Lliam]

Thank you, Amanda :-)

[FreshOutaIdeas]

I sit somewhere in the middle of this.

I completely agree that women should, to an extent, definitely feel free to be more direct. My definition of "direct" doesn't do away with subtle flirtation per say, I just think women should do away with some of their own insecurities that prevents them from making things akttle more... Straightforward... In the eyes of men.

That said, a woman wanting a dominant man to lead by example I also *completely* get. Good quality men just don't want to waste their time with women who act like they need to "vet" a guy, when they aren't worth much themselves. As others have said, controlling behaviour is an instant red flag, guys like me will walk away from this immediately. Been there done that already.

The old saying goes, "it takes two to tango". This is true, I think in this day and age women should be a little more forward, and men should be more aggressive in their pursuit. Simples.

[kyronj]

I can tell u have a lot of experience, an the way of your thinking is advance... If things really use to play out the way u just wrote their be more love, happy house hole & relationships in the world today it's true what what he saying can relate to what ur saying thanks for sharing.

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you very much, kyronj.

I just want to mention that this was not the way of the past and that we are in a different time now. It was the way that I personally have always felt. As shy and often scared as I was (I did and still do blush easily), I did often initiate things with people I really found intriguing. I never played games. I often did not know what men were thinking (hindsight is much clearer than when you're young and in the thick of it), but I never felt it was the man's job to do all this, or to be the only ones putting their neck on the line. When you make your own decisions in life, and they are your choices, the rewards are so worth it.

I was very shy, but I was warm, and I often pushed through these insecurities because I was curious about people, especially some fantastic men. For me, the world opened up once I graduated from high school and could interact with some older guys. I was suddenly very motivated. I guess the maturity just wasn't there, from what I saw, in high school boys.

It can be done. The girls just need to set their minds to it. It is nothing to do with generations or society anymore. We are the most free, egalitarian society we have ever had. There is no point in waiting. They are only wasting time and opportunity and happiness.

[ADFSDF1996]

If most women were as visual as men are when it comes to attraction there would certainly be more women taking the initiative. But since most women aren’t as visual as men are when it comes to attraction they have no motivation to do so.

It’s human biology, us men usually make the first move because we are the ones who have the urge to spread our seeds. Women don’t have that same urge, instead they let men duke it out with each other and the last man standing is usually the man the woman will fall in love with.

Such a practice is also common amongst other species such as the Komodos in which the males wrestle each other for dominance to attract females. But the only difference between us humans and other animals is that we have reason which is why there are deviations from the norm. Deviations such as women making the first move.

[AmandaYVR]

We are much more complicated than the animal kingdom. Many herd/pack animals gain access to the females by brute force. They fight other males for the right, often to the death or ostracization, and then when they’re not breeding have to spend much of their time maintaining their status through aggression. Humans have much larger brains, more variables by which to select one other. In today’s modern world, in many cases, brains are the new brawn.
“If most women were as visual as men...” has nothing to do with why women don’t approach.

[ADFSDF1996]

Humans are animals but as I said, we have “reason” making us an intelligent life form. But that doesn’t change the fact that human males have always fought each other over women, territory, resources etc. Men are genetically designed as protectors and hunters and that is simple biology, it doesn’t matter how much radical liberal pseudoscience claims that men and women are the same, it’s not true.

The only difference is that human males don’t fight over women as much anymore, instead men compete with each other, the most successful men usually get the women.

And yes women not being as visual has a lot to do with women not making the first move. When a man makes a first move it’s usually because the woman’s good looks get his attention and after making the first move he can get to know her better. But women aren’t as visual as men are so it takes a lot more than a man’s good looks to attract a woman. Behavior, fashion, popularity among other things all determine whether or not a woman will see the man as date worthy.

[ShadowofRegret]

Excellent take!

I think it really would do a lot of good for both genders if more women would ask men out too!

And like you said, it also helps make the guy feel more appreciated. (I mean, guys like feeling wanted too, and when we are expected to do it all, sometimes it does kind of make it feel like the woman doesn't 'really' want us that much...)

[Anpu23]

I've been approached by both men and women, what I lived in San Francisco it happens no biggie, and by far in my experience men take rejection much better. To women it seems to be personal even if you didn't intend it to be that way. I can't tell you how many times it's turned aggressive, and I saw the same behavior when I worked at a bar.

[sagevalentineee]

I find that once I feel comfortable with a man, and in his feelings for me, I have no problems taking the initiative, being honest, and letting him get to know the real me. However up until then, I can probably be a bit guarded and not 100% myself, which is probably due to nervousness. I can only let myself be vulnerable when I feel confident with him. And to be honest I feel like this works for me and not sooner.

[certifiedalphafemale]

I did the first move on my current boyfriend and he loved it!

[AmandaYVR]

That's wonderful!