Why don’t Catholic church leaders pressure Pope Francis to step down or just all threaten to break away and leave the church? Shall I become Orthodox?

[WhiteBoyChill]

I‘d rather not go on a whole spheal about all the things I dislike about the Pope, because I don’t feel like validating him.

Point being though, the guy sucks, he’s a heretic, he doesn’t represent me or other true practicing Christians, and he needs to go away.

I could theoretically just play the waiting game and wait until he passed and (hopefully) some better guy gets in charge.

But why should I put all those years of my life on hold hoping for something better if I can just try and join a church more structurally sound?

Anyway, the remaining trad Catholics remaining are on a sinking ship and personally I desire church leadership that inspires me and sets a good example.

Anyway, I’m curious why Orthodox countries didn’t have their very own “Protestant reformations”.

I’m curious why most Orthodox people are practicing, while most Catholics are not practicing.

I’m curious why in Latin America Catholicism is dying and Protestantism is increasing, and why the same trend doesn’t exist in Orthodox countries.

All that aside though, why isn’t there this massive movement of Catholic church leaders pressuring for the Pope to step down if he’s

1) Clearly a heretic and communist

2) The church is imploding and losing members rapidly

At the very least, they should be threatening to break away.

[LiamJHayden]

The rule should be simple for any people of any faith: if the leader promotes something with which you disagree, but can be possible by the articles of the faith, you stay. If the leader goes blatantly and clearly against the articles of faith, you leave.

[Exterminatore]

Agreed.

[Exterminatore]

At this point you should become Orthodox or look into the other independent Catholic Churches I mentioned. This pope is a blasphemer and is not following Jesus.


I think they are opposing him but are being silenced.

[WhiteBoyChill]

Regardless of whether he is being oppossed or not, it’s not in my best interest to stay as you mentioned

[Screenwriter]

I don't know about him being a heretic, unless you're a very conservative Catholic.

Frankly, I like the idea of blessing gay marriages as I know several people who've become married and I admire the fact that they've done so, and wish them luck.

Francis seems moderate to me. The gay blessing thing is thought to be radical, whereas I think it's reasonable. You don't have to like or agree with gay marriage to understand that blessing and marrying loving couples is a good thing.

It reminds of the 1960s case of the Loving family of the white man and black woman in Mississippi who couldn't legally marry because of race prejudice who continually broke the Jim Crow law because of their love for and commitment to each other and their children. It's the same kind of prejudice. And finally, the laws were changed.

I'm not for every transgender right, but if someone wants to be in a committed relationship with someone transgender, again, God bless them and good luck.

Life is a difficult proposition. If you find someone who loves you and accepts you as you are, I think any and every church should bless and legitimize your union.

That's human and realistic. God bless you!

[WhiteBoyChill]

Well, you are someone who doesn’t quite understand scripture I’m afraid. God’s word and the Bible are eternal. We don’t pick and choose what to believe based on how the rest of society thinks. That’s not real faith

[Exterminatore]

@screen

First the pope is not blessing same sex marriages, only same sex relationships…as if that is somehow better.

“You shall not sleep with a male as one sleeps with a female; it is an abomination.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭18‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

There is nothing good or admirable in any of this. It is all sin and is the pope compromising with sin to appease the culture we now live in. All of it is an abomination to the Lord and is sick and evil.

[Red_Arrow]

@Exterminatore "only same sex relationships"... Same sex marriage IS a same sex relationship!

[Exterminatore]

@red

Not disagreeing. Just some people think Francis is blessing same sex marriages. Not that there’s much of a difference and certainly this is a mere pit stop on the way to doing such.

But officially he’s not blessing same sex marriages.

As if there’s a difference. Either is sin and he has no business blessing either.

[Screenwriter]

The bible is the interpreted word of God written by men. Men write through their own personal filters. St. Paul was a prude, and this comes through in his letters to the various people he wrote sermons to. "It is better to marry than to burn" (in hell because of lust)... What kind of stuff is THAT to say?

And the Old Testament was fulfilled by the New Testament and the coming of Christ.

So Old Testament thought and practices were considered outdated by the word of Jesus. Jesus never put down any groups of people: gay, unmarried, prostitutes, even Romans. Render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar. To the conquerors, give what they ask (taxes/money).

The bible is not eternal in all aspects. The Old Testament is temporal because there was the wait for the New Testament to fulfill it. This renders the Old Testament more of a history than the truth and the way that Jesus' words are.

I've studied Scripture and read the bible. The Gospel of Jesus says Love one Another as I have loved you. I understand those words completely. It does not say only love the people who are generally accepted for you to love by society: meaning gay people cannot love each other, or trans people can't love straight or gay people or vice versa.

I believe you're the one who doesn't understand the Gospel of Jesus and the fact that the New Testament is how we are to live our lives.. Not with the fire and brimstone of a past culture that was necessary then, but unnecessary after Christ's word was revealed.

[Exterminatore]

@screen

I think you have a few errors and misunderstandings so I’ll break this down piece by piece.

In regards to scripture:

“All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable, equipped for every good work.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Scripture was inspired by God, meaning specifically the Holy Spirit who told the authors what to write.

“But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭7‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

The scripture says burn with passion not burn with lust. Fornication is a sin. Paul there is directing people to get married where they can have sex and it not be a sin, rather than avoiding it and struggle with the issue. The scripture does not say burn in Hell, it says burn with passion meaning sexual passion.

Old Testament thoughts and practices were not outdated. We are still to be obedient to the moral portions of the Old Testament. Not the parts that were civil law for Israel.

Compare:

“You shall not sleep with a male as one sleeps with a female; it is an abomination.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭18‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

The New Testament also says homosexuals will not go to heaven. Both are part of the moral law which we are to follow.

Jesus was certainly very critical of certain groups of people. The Pharisees for example who claimed he did miracles by the power of Satan, Jesus told them they would go to Hell: TBC

[Exterminatore]

Continued:

Jesus told the Pharisees they would be going to Hell for committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit here:

““Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12‬:‭31‬-‭32‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Jesus made a whip and got physical with people who made the temple into a house of merchandise here:

“And Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all those who were selling and buying on the temple grounds, and He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Jesus didn’t need to mention homosexuality as it was well known the death penalty was to be executed for it. The woman who was caught in adultery…. they knew to pick up stones and stone her to death as that what scripture said to do. Likewise they were equally familiar with this:

“If there is a man who sleeps with a male as those who sleep with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they must be put to death. They have brought their own deaths upon themselves.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭20‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Rending to Caesar Caesar’s has noting to do with your point. That was a story where the Pharisees tried to trap Jesus by his words to claim he was an insurrectionist. His answer was to give to Caesars what belongs to him after asking to see a coin and asking whose image was on the coin. In other words he’s saying to pay your taxes.

The OT is primarily composed of 3 general subjects. 1. The history of Israel. 2. The civil Law of Israel. 3. The moral law which we are all to follow. If we are not to follow the moral law, is it ok to worship idols now? We are to follow all of the moral law.

[Exterminatore]

Continued

Love one another -

Let’s look at other scripture:

“But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is a sexually immoral person, or a greedy person, or an idolater, or is verbally abusive, or habitually drunk, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a person.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Here scripture says to not even associate with sexually immoral people who claim to be Christian’s among others.

“If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭66‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

There we learn that God doesn’t even hear the prayer of willful sinners.

“The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭5‬:‭5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There we see God hates all workers of iniquity. He HATES them.

[Exterminatore]

Continued:

“Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭24‬-‭32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Here we see the results of godlessness. Homosexuality is listed with lesbianism in there along with many other wicked dispositions and attitudes that come with godlessness. Take not the scripture states that those who do these things deserve death: meaning spiritual death if they don’t repent meaning: Eternal judgment and separation from God.

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God does not love everyone. He loves those who are his. He hates those who willfully live in sin and rebellion to him.

[Exterminatore]

I hope all this helps to correct the misconceptions you seem to have about scripture and God.

Don’t take my word for it. Study the matter yourself. If you come to a different conclusion I’d be happy to discuss but I think it’s quite clear that loving your neighbor as yourself and loving one another as I have loved you does not mean condoning or accepting what God has called sin. In such a case loving would constitute telling them what God’s word says about sin and warning them that God said there would be eternal punishment for those who will not repent.

Jesus must not only be one’s savior. He must be their Lord also. One must obey their lord. There is no mercy without obedience.

“By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

[Screenwriter]

@Exterminatore The Timothy and Corinthians are not the words of Jesus. They are from his disciples. And though the Old Testament laws were well known, Jesus stopped the stoning of Mary Magdalene. If he ascribed to these old laws, he would not have stopped the stoning, would he?

People shunned lepers, the mentally infirm and others, but Jesus talked about visiting prisoners to minister to them. He cured the infirm and lepers. He brought the good wine out first at the wedding feast. All of these actions went against the old laws. They were a new way of thinking.

And I do choose to love all kinds of people, even those despised in the Old Testament, and to recognize all people as human and worthwhile of recognition as couples by the church. By all churches.

Prejudices that keep people away from organized religion weaken the church. Bless those who curse you, practice forgiveness and mercy. Welcome those different than you. If you only love the people who are easy to love, and only accept those you think are deserving of acceptance, you are not doing the good work of the good news.

Bias and prejudice are the sources of every war that ever was and ever will be. That is truly a giant sin. Israel, Russia, troubles in some African countries and the drug gangs in Central and South America. Blessed are the peacemakers. That's the stuff that we need to be working on.

[Exterminatore]

@screen

I hate to tell you but there will be no homosexuals in Heaven and no one there who supports them over what God says either.

Timothy was not a disciple of Jesus. He was Paul’s disciple. Paul is the author of 1st Corinthians.

You claim to know scripture, I find it shocking you do not know those things.

Mary Magdalene was not the one being stoned in that story. Jesus said: “whoever is without sin, cast the first stone.” That left no one to throw stones because they were all guilty of adultery themselves most likely, and subject to the same judgment themselves.

Wine is not against anything in the Old Testament and there is one example where God promised to increase the wine yield of the Israelites if they were faithful. Jesus himself gave wine to the disciples at the last supper and told them to drink it. I. e. Communion. None of those things you mentioned are sin or even condemned in the OT.

You should love all people. Even homosexuals. God does not condone berating them, beating them, insulting them or disparaging against them. He does call their behavior sin and matter of factly states they will be judged by him in this life and the next if they don’t repent.

You are preaching a social justice gospel that is completely contrary to what God has said. I’ll give you a fair warning. That’s called being a false teacher and the condemnation will be great for such. You cannot have Jesus and support homosexuality and be in right standing with God.

As Jesus said: no one can serve to masters.

I suggest you stop serving the false God you have made up in your head that is fine with homosexuality and serve the real God. You can’t twist scripture to make it mean what fits your politics. God doesn’t care about your Woke and social justice ideas and I can assure you on the day of judgment he will not be amused.

Choose your God, either Jesus or Woke ideology. They don’t mix. One or the other, can’t have both and be in right standing with God.

[Exterminatore]

“Therefore God gave them up to vile impurity in the lusts of their hearts, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged natural relations for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise the men, too, abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another, males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper, people having been filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unfeeling, and unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also approve of those who practice them.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭24‬-‭32‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

[Exterminatore]

Says right there homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God:

“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

[Exterminatore]

If you love homosexuals you’ll tell them the truth. You won’t be a willing party to their eternal judgment by telling fanciful tales about how Jesus accepts them. He does not. They are committing sin. They will face judgement for it if they don’t repent. You by concealing this truth are an accomplice to the wrath they will have from God at the end of this age.

[WhiteBoyChill]

@Exterminatore You’re exactly right. Here we have a classic case of some activist that wants to manipulate the Bible to fit their worldview. Notice how she even had to detract from her own initial argument that homosexuality is only condemned in the Old Testament which “no longer applies” LOL

[Screenwriter]

@Exterminatore Please stop. I will never agree with you. All kinds of people are accepted and loved by God and will be rewarded. God has created everyone. YOU are the person who is not accepting and loving. How people have sex and who they love has nothing to do with them being worthy of the love and joy from God. You are practicing CONFIRMATION BIAS. Using information to support your bias and prejudice.

This has nothing to do with "woke" ideaology. This has to do with what I learned 60 years ago from my parents and catechism class and the priests and nuns who taught me in grammar school. There was no "woke" anything back then. So stop throwing this new philosophy jazz at me. I'm too old for it.

I hope you open your heart to ALL people and stop using the bible to support hate and prejudice. White, Euro-based people have used this to kind of hate against all manner of of Native Americans and Africans and South American natives to kill them or consider them less than human if they couldn't convert them.

It's sad, but you're wrong. Maybe one day, you'll realize this. Good luck in the meantime.

[Exterminatore]

@white

Yeah. What she doesn’t realize is I love homosexuals more than her. I don’t want to see them go to Hell. I don’t want to see anyone go there. So I will tell them the truth about what God says, about their sin and the eternal consequences of it.

She thinks homosexuals are loved by God and will be rewarded when scripture clearly states the opposite. That comes from the gospel according to St. Screenwriter. She feels fine just ignoring what God says and in fact calling God a liar by contradicting what he says. She also thinks she can do that and be in right standing with God. There is no fear of the holiness of God with people who do this.

She then goes on to say I am using information to support bias and prejudice. I think I remember something about God raining down fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah largely due to rampant homosexuality among other things. I guess God is prejudiced against gays too.

Then she tells me she hopes I stop using the Bible to support hatred and prejudice. How laughable. I never said one hateful things about gays, I simple quoted scripture. I didn’t write the Bible. I simply was faithful to my Lord to tell the truth about what it says. Take note. Any opposition to the narrative is hate and prejudice. You’re not allowed to have contrasting opinions. All dissenting opinions are hate.

Then she tells me I’m wrong, but can’t refute anything the Bible says.

What she’s doing is being a false teacher. Pronouncing things scripture does not say and trumping God’s word with her own gospel. Trying to say God loves and accepts everyone. He does not. There wouldn’t be a Hell and people wouldn’t go there if he did. God does not accept unrepentant sinners of any variety. Be they thieves, murders, liars, fornicators, idolaters, or homosexuals. There is no mercy from God without repentance. Jesus is Lord. Willful continual disobedience is rebellion against God. He spared not the angles who sinned and rebelled, but cast them down to Hell.

[Exterminatore]

“For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭11‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, and they will turn their ears away from the truth and will turn aside to myths.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a sick craving for controversial questions and disputes about words, from which come envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between people of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭6‬:‭3‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“For certain people have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into indecent behavior and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

[AmeerX]

Orthodox Christians are the best. They have never treated me like an infidel or sort of like that. Orthodox Church is a split from Christianity. I admit I don't know much about them but they never really try to "sell" their ideas like the Catholics do. Believe me, we have a Catholic Church in my country and they have a University and I remember they used to give admissions to people if they would convert, give waive offs and it really felt ridiculous.
We don't have Orthodox in my country and the ones I talk to were Russian or Ukrainian Orthodox and boy the difference is literally very big 🤣

[WhiteBoyChill]

I would be curious of your country haha. And yeah I don’t know much about how they be in other places. Haha

[AmeerX]

We have 300+ Churches here. I am from Pakistan. And they have a Young men's Christian association, Young women's christian association and one time I bought my friends to go see the church one of the Church fellow was so rude he refused to let us enter. Said, "are you sure they are Christian"

The other Church was good though. But you get my point the oldest ones are pretty crazy 😅.

[Alwayreckles93]

Yes I definitely highly recommend you get out of all of that demonic environment. No wonder you can't find the corrrect wife for you. Now if you do decide to find a wife for yourself I advice you to fast and pray to thebLord to put the correct girl on your path.

[WhiteBoyChill]

Well yes, I ultimately am not in the right church

[strateguy632]

as a pope he gets to interpret what is right or wrong so they follow him. whatever he says becomes the "right" idea to follow because he is pope. if he said it then it can't be wrong nor worth protesting. if you do not like it, find a system without submitting to a leader for example some protestant without hierarchy.

[WhiteBoyChill]

Protestants have their issues as well, I’m afraid. Orthodox is likely God’s truest church

[Exterminatore]

@white

Orthodox or independent Catholics who adhere to God’s word and are free of Vatican control.

Most Protestant denominations have fallen now regarding this sin and I don’t consider the vast majority of them an option.

For the rest of my life it will be independent Catholic or Orthodox only. I will never be a member of any other denomination as most have drifted way to far from the truth regarding this matter or others.

[WhiteBoyChill]

@Exterminatore That’s where I’m at as well. Haha. But when I searched the web, there didn’t appear to be any independent Catholic churches in my area which is why I’m contemplating with Orthodoxy.

But with Orthodoxy itself, its unique too in the sense that there seems to be a church for every country, ie Russian Orthodox church, Armenian Orthodox church, etc.

[Exterminatore]

You should definitely go Orthodox. I think I they all teach the same things. I’ve been doing so reading up on it.

I have no issues with Orthodox of any type so far as I can see, but whatever you do don’t stay in the RC church. Blessing same sex relationships is blessing immorality. It won’t be long until they bless same sex marriage.

[Daniela1982]

Consider these things and then ask if the Catholic Church is actually a Christian organization.

[Kelly6]

@daniela1982
wow didn't know. that

[WhiteBoyChill]

Damn. I was raised in a cult after all 😬

[ImalwaysrightOK]

He's definitely a Marxist heretic and thank God I'm not Catholic otherwise I'd leave too.

[WhiteBoyChill]

Are you Orthodox?

[ImalwaysrightOK]

Not really anything defined. My family was mix Eastern Orthodox and Jewish so I am faithful but of no particular church.

[WhiteBoyChill]

Ah cool. Well I’m hoping to learn about Orthodoxy if that is something you are knowledgeable of

[Dargil]

Italians at the Vatican should elect a strong doctrinal Conservative and begin to ignore Frank.

[WhiteBoyChill]

I hope they do

[Dargil]

I am half Evangelical and Half RC. I would become more active in the Church if another Pontiff like JP2 was elected.

[WhiteBoyChill]

Hell yeah man! JP2 was awesome!

[236color]

It's religion buddy, and according to it, he's infallible.

[Anonymous]

The Pope is God's appointed Bishop and leader of all Christians, to deny this is heresy

[WhiteBoyChill]

Ah yes. The Pope has unilateral authority to contradict God’s spoken will in the Bible

[Opinion Owner]

Then you are not a Catholic and are only pretending. Just go to a methodist or Presbyterian church

[Exterminatore]

@Opinion

The pope doesn’t have the authority to declare good what God called an abomination. Period. End of File.

The pope and Roman Catholic Church are no apostate.

“You shall not sleep with a male as one sleeps with a female; it is an abomination.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭18‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

God said that. The pope has no right to contradict it. He is a heretic.

[Opinion Owner]

@Exterminatore the Pope hasn't contradicted it.
Why write a question pretending to be Catholic and that you will convert to orthodoxy?
You just a small point but circumcision is practiced in the orthodox Church.

[WhiteBoyChill]

@Exterminatore And that’s the other thing too. I’m sure there are many Popes in the churches history that would’ve agreed with what you said and even blasted the First Vatican council if they were still alive today.

I’m not against the concept of a church having a central leader, if that leader does a good job. But if I’m suppossed to just blindly accept blatant sin and blasphemy being promoted, well then I find that laughable in a mentally incoherent way.

[WhiteBoyChill]

@Asker

Dude there’s literally several bible verses that say homosexuality is sin. Just scroll up and read some of the several verses he posted in a reply to Screenwriter.

Also, this was my question, not his. And I was raised as a Catholic and I’ve come to seriously question the standing viability of the church. This was the final straw for me.

Also circumsision is practiced by all sorts of people and why is that necessarily a bad thing?

[Opinion Owner]

When has the Pope said its not a sin?
You realise if you quote leviticus 19:19 you can't wear clothes made of two different fabrics, that's virtually.
Married women should cover their hair. Men should cover their heads. Men should be circumcised. You shouldn't masturbate or have anal sex. You should only have sex for procreation.

[Exterminatore]

@Opinion

What does circumcision have to do with any of this?

Homosexuality is sin. To bless same sex relationships is to bless what God called sin.

At that point we are no longer debating over the finer points of the faith but are fully calling good what God has called sin.

There is 0 room to bless same sex relationship and still be obedient to God on the matter.

In regard to orthodoxy, I’m as orthodox as they come. I even left a Protestant church to become Catholic just to be even more orthodox as what I see in Protestant denominations in general is equally bad if not worse. However I am not Roman Catholic, but Polish Catholic. We are independent Catholics not under the jurisdiction of the Vatican.

The bottom line is Francis just blessed what God condemned and there is 0 wiggle room to philosophies or justify doing so.

[Exterminatore]

@Opinion

Wearing clothes of mixed fabrics is not a sin. That was part of the civil law of Israel given to Israel by God. Israel was to be a peculiar nation. A nation of evangelists. God gave them special rules like not wearing clothes of mixed fibers or not yoking 2 different types of animals together or not planting 2 different crops in the same field so that the heathen nations that surrounded Israel would say: “why?” “Why do you do these things? Why are you so different which was a vehicle to use to tell those nations about God, as no one would self impose many of those ordinances. We as. Christians are not to follow those rules. They were for Israel only, not the church. The church and Israel are separate entities. What both are to follow and we are still to follow are the parts of the moral law, which includes prohibition of homosexuality and is reiterated throughout the New Testament. You will find it here:

“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

We find homosexuality condemned in both the OT and NT. We do not find a prohibition on wearing clothes of mixed fibers in both.

By your reasoning homosexuality is ok, and so is murder, cause if it’s not sin to be gay and not sin to wear clothes of mixed fibers then it’s not sin to murder.

[Exterminatore]

@white

Fully agree.

No issue with a central leader until that leader endorses sin. Then there’s a problem.

[Opinion Owner]

@Exterminatore under the same code that says homosexuality is wrong it says you must be circumcised, not wear mixed fabrics etc.
Sex outside of marriage is a sin. I mean if the Catholic Church banned all sinners the church would be empty. What did Jesus say about let he without sin casting the first stone?
Pope never once said homosexual sex was OK.

[Opinion Owner]

@Exterminatore if you are a Catholic the head of your church is the Pope whether you like it or not.

[Exterminatore]

@Opinion

I just explained this to you. Mixed fibers were part of the civil law for Israel. They do not apply to the church. Homosexuality violates the moral law of God and is repeated in the New Testament. Christians are to obey the moral laws: the 10 commandments, prohibitions on homosexuality, prohibitions on having sex with close relatives, restitution for wrong doing etc. The rest does not apply to Christians. It was part of the civil law given to Israel and Israel alone. Not to the church.

St Paul discusses that here:

“Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace. For we, through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭2‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Circumcision was part of the ordinances for Jews. St. Paul makes it clear that anyone who wants to follow those rules, like not wearing clothing of mixed fabrics, must do all of them. He’s saying those things are no longer necessary, however following the moral commands of God are.

“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Read the entire 3rd chapter of Galatians.

He said let whoever is without sin cast the first stone. The woman was caught in the act of adultery, but there was no one left to stone her, most likely because they were all guilty of adultery and could not cast the first stone. Without sin meaning not without any sin but meaning without that specific sin they were to stone her for.

What exactly do you think they do in same sex relationships?

The pope his not the head of my church.

[Exterminatore]

My church broke away from the Roman Catholic Church prior to Vatican 1 in the 1800’s. We have been independent ever since. The pope is not my pope and is a blasphemer.

[Opinion Owner]

@Exterminatore mixed fibres were part of leviticus just like no sodomy or masturbation.

[Exterminatore]

@Opinion

I am aware. Masturbation is not mentioned anywhere in scripture by the way. Sodomy as in anal sex isn’t mentioned anywhere in scripture either however if you use sodomy as a synonym for homosexuality, then that is in fact all over the Bible.

[Opinion Owner]

@Exterminatore Matthew 5:27–30. Jesus speaks against having lustful intentions and then says, “If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.”
Genesis 38:9-10
9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.
Sodomy is anal sex! Its name comes from Sodom and Gomorrah where God destroyed the city because of the homosexuality that was going on there. The anus was not designed for sex, neither is it safe to practice. Even though the Bible doesn’t discuss anal sex between a married couple, from what the Bible does tell us you can see that God intended for the penis to go inside the vagina not the anus. Married couples shouldn’t be having anal sex. We must not take away God’s natural way of doing things.

[Exterminatore]

You are correct about what it says in Matthew.

In regards to Onan, what he did was pull out, not masturbate. God killed him for this because he was supposed to take his deceased brothers wife to be his wife, and since his brother did not have children he was supposed to impregnate her to have children in his stead. Instead what he did was use her for sex, and ignored impregnating her.

Sodomy is anal sex, but a sodomite is a homosexual. The primary sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was homosexuality. They even tried to rape the angels God sent there to destroy the city.

Anal sex is not as sin. You are correct about how God designed the human anatomy. Scripture tells us lots about whom we can and cannot have sex with. It says nothing about how we have sex. The penis wasn’t designed for the mouth either. Are blow jobs sin? It wasn’t designed for the hand. Are hand jobs sin? It wasn’t designed for anything other than sexual intercourse and urination.

“Marriage is to be held in honor among all [that is, regarded as something of great value], and the marriage bed undefiled [by immorality or by any sexual sin]; for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13‬:‭4‬ ‭AMP‬‬

Therefore as the above states, the marriage bed is undefined. What two married persons do sexually is not sin provided it involves no one else, animals, or watching porn. All those would be prohibited in scripture, the last one under the same verse you cited in Matthew concerning masturbation. Therefore married couples can have anal sex.

[Exterminatore]

I need to go back and correct myself. I believe I have wrongfully applied the scripture in Hebrews 13:4. This is actually a warning against adultery.

I have always been taught its meaning was that what the husband and wife do in bed is sanctified because they are married. Upon closer examination I believe that is in correct and taken out it context with the preceding and proceeding verses. I do apologize for my citing that verse as out of context.

That said, I see nothing in scripture that prohibits what sexual activities a husband and wife may do in bed besides involving no one else, watching porn, or involving animals, a d also transvestism. I forgot to mention that one as it’s also specifically mentioned in scripture. I also do not see what sexual activities a husband and wife may engage in covered in any broader context of any verse. So far as I can see it comes down to mutual agreement between husband and wife.

If God had to specifically mention zoophilia in Leviticus 18, which should be obviously degenerate without having to state it, I’d think God would have mentioned it. So scripture is silent on that topic. Where something is not mentioned specifically or not covered under a broader context I think we must be silent. We cannot add or subtract from God’s word. I think it comes down to individual conscience.

“But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

In other words, where we don’t find something specifically mentioned, if we can’t do it in good conscience, if we do not know if it’s sin or not, then we ought not do it. If we think it may be sinful even in the absence of a specific command, then for the individual who cannot have faith it is acceptable to God it is sin.

[Opinion Owner]

@Exterminatore donkey penis and horse cum is mentioned in the bible.
Also the Pope hasn't said said homosexuality is OK.

[KrakenAttackin]

I agree, this Pope is a mess.

[BCRanger10]

What would you hope to accomplish?

[WhiteBoyChill]

The church needs a fresh change in leadership. Either that, leave, or form our own churches

[Exterminatore]

@bc

God said this:

“You shall not sleep with a male as one sleeps with a female; it is an abomination.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭18‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

When the leader of any church specifically contradicts what our Lord has said it’s time for reform or to leave. Since reform is not a real option, it’s time to leave. No real follower of Jesus can be in a church that contradicts what the Lord has decreed for such a church is apostate and no longer obeys the Lord.

[BCRanger10]

What good would that do?

[WhiteBoyChill]

What do you mean? I’d like to see the church change for the better but if there’s anything we can take away from the Bud Light Boycott, its that entities cave to pressure.

Thus far, there has been virtually little movement against Francis

[BCRanger10]

What would that boycott look like? The Catholic Church, contrary to what many may claim, is not a for-profit business. The most effective "boycott" would be for people to stop going to Mass, which is not an option.

Have you followed the cases of Bishop Joseph Strickland or Cardinal Raymond Burke at all?

[WhiteBoyChill]

Yes, there need to be more in the church doing what they are doing

[Exterminatore]

@BC

It’s just this simple. Homosexuality is a sin. To bless same sex relationships is to bless sin. Once we are blessing what God has called sin we are clearly in disobedience. At that point true Christians need to leave such a church. Can’t take communion with others who endorse this. I’m not in communion with those who bless sin. You shouldn’t be either. There are alternatives. Independent Catholics and Orthodox Churches. I strongly suggest you look into those options. Staying in the RC church is consenting to their decision here and you can’t. No one who is following Jesus can.