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I support egalitarianism as feminism clearly is only concerned with women's issues and not the issues of both genders. I don't want to act just as hypocritical as the feminists and join an MRA and only care about men's issues either. Everyone regardless of race or gender should have their issues taken seriously. Egalitarianism is clearly the direction our society needs to head toward.
Agreed, that is why I am egalitarian, not MRA and not feminist.
Thanks for speking up about this. I had no idea that men went through so much asssault and forced to penetrate thing and being made to be silent or indifferent about it. Its so hard because even men dont talk about it.
I had someone very close to me take there lives who was a male. He was always trying to be tough and had ahard time expressing himself for even the smallest things like crying for someone he loved at a funeral. I know for certain, that if he was assaulted at a yound age, he would not tell anyone. Or be ashamed to. And I always wonder if he was now, I'll never know.
thank you for sharing your personal experiences on this matter.
Its no problem at all. I'll let you in on something as a woman and an observant one, a lot of 'feminist' a word many people use it to get whatever point they wanted accross for them feeling not as advantaged as maybe a white male in power, the meaning is relative to whoever's situation), dont want to see that your gender also has problems because it takes away from there spotlight, . Feminisim at its core should be equality but a word that's overused and with a vague definition, loses power.
You simply pointed out some very serious issues that men have and they are valid and so overlooked that its sad, but some women completely disregarded it. Its comlpetely hypricrital on there part part but feminism seems like a group of people that feel entitled to power that a dominant male has which was gained through the oppression of others. If you didn't already know, many 'feminist' are selfish and want the denefits men get from oppressing cultures and monopolizing I feel, as opposed to equality
'a white male in power'
Yes. Essentially I believe that one of the main female gender issues an egalitarian would want to address (because both men and women have separate gender issues so neither should be marginalised) would be the absence of female representation at the very top of the ladder. This is the essence of 'patriarchy' but then having such a small group of people with all the power in society is disadvantageous anyway (including white working class males as much as everyone else).
'Feminisim at its core should be equality but a word that's overused and with a vague definition, loses power.'
I think the issue is with the word itself - FEMinism - whereas egalitarianism is etymologically focused on equal rights to begin with. Obviously feminism originally had its focus on female liberation in days when women didn't even have the right to vote, so the historical context is justified.
But the situation is currently different, hence the emphasis needs to shift to a more balanced middle ground, resolving gender issues on both sides.
'but some women completely disregarded it. Its comlpetely hypricrital on there part part '
I guess I can emphasise with women that believe this. This is especially the case in a world where the social norm suggests that women have the greatest disadvantages in society and that to suggest otherwise is chauvinistic or justifying the patriarchy. So their gut reaction is to assume negative thoughts about somebody promoting a different perspective, it's not necessarily their fault - just the way they have been socially conditioned.
'dominant male has which was gained through the oppression of others. '
And at one point it was, but the existing system is only beneficial to the elite few who - while the existing powers may (by and large) belong to certain groups pertaining to gender, sexuality and ethnicity - their interest is not to defend
people in lower stratifications within society just because they belong to the same groups otherwise. That's why an egalitarian's focus should be on shifting the focus from elite power and decentralising / democratising authority, rather than creating ideological division within society that pertain to gender, sexuality or ethnicity.
Anyway, if you are interested I wrote a new article (with two parts to it) that address some of the objections users posted on this one:
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24039-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-towards-egalitarianism
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24040-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-to-egalitarianism-part-2
I definitely agree it's harder to get into shape for a guy. I know for a fact because I'm already in naturally good shape if I was a woman, but if I want to get in good shape for what guys are supposed to have I'd have to work my ass off everyday for a year.
yep, easier to burn fat than gain muscle.
1 absolutely
2 actually some studies show that the number is about equal men and women both sexually assault and are sexually assaulted at roughly equal rates. As for results, come on being victimized isn't easier for either gender
3 true
4 becoming less of a thing, but it still seems to be the norm
5 Hardly a valid point, come on you can certainly do better then that
6 this is a dead horse people are paid due to their chosen profession men and women in similar jobs earn roughly the same amount.
7 True, and I think women may get a little too much (then again I'm an employer so...)
8 I disagree with this one, as most girls are much more exacting then guys when it comes to body image
9 Not in my world... I haven't seen this
10 I don't get this whole creep shaming thing, if someone could explain it to me I'd like to understand
Thanks for the breakdown. Since other users have made similar points as you, I have addressed them in a separate my take.
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24039-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-towards-egalitarianism
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24040-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-to-egalitarianism-part-2
Watch YouTube videos from people like vitalyztv if you want to see the creep example.
1. Yup that's true
2. Umm it's not exactly empowering and confidence building for women either
3. Probably true, I'm not an anthropologist. But that's more physiology than society
4. Lol no they don't
5. Lol please just stop.
6. It's very true that more men work physically demanding and dangerous jobs, but you must consider the debasing jobs that women dominate
7. Maternity leave is still a major issue in this country. We both have this problem
8. That's only a problem for meatheads lol. Cardio and building light defined muscle is not as hard as meathead training, true, but not all guys wanna look like Arnold.
9. You still have those options, just a few more people acting like cunts about it
10. This isn't a rule. I think it's only common in fear, not the real world.
2. I maintain that it's bad for both sexes but anal rape by another man is worse for men. Why? Because society tells you that you are less of a man and even if they didn't you would believe it regardless.
3. Physiology, yes. But a disadvantage regardless (including erectile dysfunction, higher cancer rates - especially prostrate, testicular and I think bowel cancer) when taking into account women complaining about their own physiological issues (periods, pregnancy, menopause). And society does play a role in lowering the age of retirement for men, in spite of men not living as long as women.
4. You think the traditional dating game isn't a pain in the arse for the vast majority of men? At 17, you probably haven't been dragged in yet.
5. A focus on emotional turbulence would have been better.
6. It's not necessarily about 'men have it worse', more that 'neither gender has it worse - here are some of the male disadvantages that are by and large ignored compared to the female...
disadvantages feminists use to promote their ideology (as if that was still necessary).
7. Yep, we both have this problem and while women get longer leave on the whole, it is for biological reasons. SO since the problem for both sides is roughly equal, why can't the focus be on parental leave rather than maternity leave OR paternal leave.
8. Like I said to other uses, men don't have to be Mr Olympia but women still appreciate a lean guy and it's tougher on the whole to get that physique than the one that is ideal for women.
9. And the result of these people acting like cunts about men being open with their feelings in general is a society of men that are increasingly macho and emotionally repressive, because society tells them that anything else is 'gay'.
10. What's not a rule? That women are not often discourteous to men who they deem to be unconfident / unattractive, in spite of society putting the pressure on men to always be initiator. No, not all women are like it. But many are.
How do you build that much muscle?
LOOOL you wrote a mytake about this? What are you some kind of bitch? You want me to take the seeds off your strawberries too? Man up bro!
Jk jk, good take :p
lol at take the seeds off my strawberry, I dont even know what that is.
seeds off strawberries LMAO
"Women are genetically predisposed to live longer lives."
I am not sure if it is genetical to be honest. Let's face it, men work more physical and/or risky jobs, are taking more risks in live, are more likely to successfully commit suicide, are the ones who go to war if there is one, etc.
Those things all contribute to the average length of mens lifes going down, but it doesn't mean they are genetically predisposed to live shorter lifes.
Should have said more likely to succeed in suicide due to more lethal measures.
@Marstalk
Thats what I said. They are more likely to successfully commit suicide, not to attempt it.
Well apparently my brain darted, sorry.
Actually that is an interesting point. I do think their is a genetic factor however (you just jogged my memory) I do recall seeing a graph that showed that when women actually started working the hours men had traditionally worked, that is they began doing the same jobs as men, their life expectancy actually noticablly dropped. I don't remember where I saw the graph so I can't verifie it but it does seem probable, also yeah men are 4x more likely to commit suicide then women and make up 98% of all job accidents/fatalities. If you look at a graph of mens life expectancy it actually flucuates, men are only likely to survive to 74 if they manage to survive to their 50-60s, they have a higher probability of death in their 40-50s and in their late teen early twenties then women. But that is also partially genetic as men are geneticly predisposed towards riskier behavior and we do have a tendency for heart disease and cancer in our later years
I wanted to write a take just like this one. You, good sir, have made that an unnecessary task. Thank you. Well done. Now to grab some popcorn and sift through the female comments. Gonna love the denial that I'm sure to find there.
haha well you nearly beat me to it. I lost the initial draft of this then basically had to retype it. finding suitable pictures and statistics was a nightmare.
Got to say that most of this is either very bias or just not true. Although I agree that egalitarianism is the best way to go, I think you are a long way from it.
I think 1, 3 and 9 are very good points. You mentioned in a reply that 3 was biological, but thats not true. Because of 1 and 9, men are much more likely to die from violence or suicide than women.
Then you add that 9 means men are more likely to delay or not go to the doctors, and will drink or eat unhealthily to alleviate stress rather than talk about their problems.
This all brings down the average life expectancy for men and does not affect women nearly as often.
This is a pretty good take, thanks for bringing up the male perspective when it comes to issues regarding equality.
thanks. I just want to emphasise - since I did not make it clear enough in the mytake - that I do not believe men have it worse (actually I believe we are roughly equal to women in this regards). in fact, as user's have pointed out, many of my arguments are still subject to debate. what I believe is men's issues are trivialised by a lot of feminist ideologues in the name of political correctness. this is wrong and since many of women's issues have been addressed after three successive waves of feminism, as a society, we should be looking to redirect the focus, not onto men's rights necessarily but onto equal rights. this would be more constructive than outright gender warfare between feminists and MRAs, if both camps were to align under the banner of egalitarianism.
Well people think we r more modified and care about human rights more than the old centuries well this is just the apperances
Now men r treated badly by the society? please that's bullshit
U know the Americans live in a liberty fool life like they don't have any freedom at all they r being brainwashed by all of the media
It's true western civilisation in general has it much easier. But within western civilisation there are ideological trends emphasising that western men and women have not achieved equality yet and it is not true. Obviously in other parts of the world like Saudi Arabia, women really are subjugated as a gender but that is not the case where I live, in spite of what feminists say.
Yep.
I should have found a better way to emphasise that this is not a gender bashing thread so much as it is an argument in favour of egalitarianism over feminism.
*the point being that men and women HAVE attained equality. Saying otherwise is counterproductive.
Yeah I understood ur point which I agree with
sure, I was just emphasising what I should have made clearer in the OP :P
There were only two valid points and the rest were crap.
What were the valid points?
@Calex 2 & 3
tbh those aren't even the strongest points in my opinion.
For number two, more women are victims of rape, it's just that being a man and getting anally raped by another man has more social stigma which is why I mention it.
For number three, the focus of this particular issue is biological not social, meaning that it's not society's fault women live longer.
#1 Is actually a real statistic. I'll also add my point. Men are more likely to fight men. Just like male animals in the wild. While men are more likely to assault women sexually, they're more likely to rob a man than a woman.
#7 Well, some of this is true, but I don't see it as a big issue.
#9 This is also true. I see less adverts and such about supporting men in need. I'm curious, what makes you think this point is false? Am I missing something/living in the wrong country?
#10 Let's face it, women are slut shamed, and creep shaming seems to 95% of the time happen to men. It's still a problem for many men, you know?
Downvoted because 4) is true, but 9) is ACTUALLY a problem especially if people are unwilling to be aware of it. And you seem to choose to be unaware of it. People judge you for being unable to solve problems, they see you as weak and laugh at you. You can't just ask anyone for advice, "you are a man so you can and should figure it out". Like, wtf.
@Calex Actually women are just as likely to sexually assualt/rape a man as a man is a woman. Men are more likely to inflict violence upon a man then a woman is on a woman but whats interesting is that a man is more likely to be violent towards a stranger while a woman is more likely to inflict violence upon family/significant others/their children then a man is statisticly speaking.
Oh god! Feminism means "gender equality". Please refer a dictionary. U have written a good article and i am glad that u have not disreapected females in any way. But still, Feminists want equality. I am one and i know that patriarchal values hurt men also terribly.
perhaps that might be an interpretation (especially for self-identified feminists) but the etymology of FEMinism seems to infer differently.
'patriarchal values'
This is maybe the one thing feminism has going for it: the absence of female representation at the very top. But then having such a small elite clique in society is always going to be an issue regardless of ethnicity, gender, etc.
Also, like I said at the very start,
'A common argument against proclaiming yourself an egalitarian rather than a feminist is that women are the more socially disadvantaged group in society, therefore there needs to be more focus on their rights.'
This means that most feminists believe there should be MORE emphasis on women's rights rather than men's - not because they don't believe in inequality but because they still believe women's issues are more marginalised than men's which, as I have demonstrated, is not the case.
No feminism does not now, nor has it ever meant "gender equality." This is a piece of Orwellian double speak that is based on hypocrisy of the worst kind. You can not say that you are or do something and do the exact opposite and expect people to believe your words.
@Anpu23 i m only saying what d dictionary says and i believe in.
Can one claim a definition for a group that goes counter to that groups objectives? The fact is feminism has never been about equality at any point in history this is irrefutable based upon none facts. Feminist wanted privledge yet refused responsiblity like for instance voting where men got the right to vote (only 70 years before women) because by law they where draftable for bucket brigades and for war ie they where given the right to vote because they could be forced into a leathel situation, women on the other hand got the right to vote yet where not forced to sign up for the draft (in fact the vast majority of the feminist that pushed for womens right to vote where against women being drafted feeling it was a mans job to go to war not a womans) ie they wanted the privledge but not the responsibility that came with it. That is not equality ergo feminism is not about equality.
@hellionthesage ok. But r u gonna say that for dose reasons women shud nt be even given d right to vote?
There are no disadvantages to being a man. You sound like a woman.
ok, man!
Real men don't worry about all that shit. Seriously. You emasculate yourself, so stop blaming women. All the guys on here constantly whining about this stuff sound like total wimps. You do it to yourself.
sorry stop whining about what? violent assault? rape? the standards society set for men, which women are the first to complain about when it happens to them?
but yes, you're a perfect example of society telling men they need to be 'real men' and stop 'sound[ing] like total wimps'.
So many things wrong with this statement. Basically you are saying that any guy that disagrees with you isn't a real man. That is a shaming tactic that has ran its course. Also he wasn't blaming women. He was saying that men need to have their concerns taken seriously, instead of having them ignored. Standing up for the issues that are important to you doesn't mean you are whining or a total wimp.
Feminist ass hole
i'm... ummm... and egalitarian... and i believe in equality for all genders
yea, basically this is where I think the focus should be. not MRA or feminism.
hmm, you're right, the actual definition of egalitarianism is "a system that gives everyone the equal chance to succeed" that's why i like it, because its a mix between capitalist and communist ideals, getting the best of both
right.
the middle ground is usually the correct stance to take, e. g. mixed economy rather than communism or capitalism. egalitarianism rather than MRA or feminism. fair trade instead of free trade or protectionism. etc. etc.
Both genders have it tough in different ways. But the significant thing here is how feminism has portrayed women as victims and men as perpetrators by default. That's the very purpose of the concept of a "patriarchy". Women oppressed by men. But in the western world today there is no patriarchy, only dishonest feminists who want to maintain the illusion of one for political, social and financial power.
Great take.
Yes. The ONLY thing I would say feminists have going for them is that there are not enough female leaders - female politicians and business women. Representation would go a long way here in ironing out what is in my opinion, the last of women's rights concerns after three successive waves of 20th century feminism.
There will never be equal representation in the highest of leadership positions because men are perceived by BOTH genders as better, more competent, more authoritative leaders. As long as leaders are voted into their positions, men will far outweigh women in those positions. That is not a matter of feminism; it's a matter of human nature.
Ok, fair enough.
I dont agree with all of what you said, but some of it is very good. The bullshit games that women have turned dating into is so frustrating.
True, a lot of it is subject to debate but I knew this when writing the mytake. It is just another perspective that maybe women do not have it as rough as feminists like to make out.
I definitely agree on that.
I'll say it right here: If people, women, men, white, black, whatever they are, only defend their own gender/race, then they are biased and unreasonable. Nothing less, nothing more.
agreed, which is why I am an egalitarian
There are actually quite a few support groups for men. You just have but in the leg work to find them or Google work. Women are looked down upon as well when looking for help through counseling. We still have a culture of negative aspect towards seeking help through mental means.
^ put not but