What in the world is a "Western Value"?

[RolandCuthbert]

I think it is well known to a lot of folks (especially to those of you who are outside of the U.S.) here that GaG in general, works off a different set of rules than the rest of the world when it comes to defining terms, political ideology and just basic reality.

This question is an example.

Many folks at GaG claim to be "Conservative". The weird thing is what they claim is or is not "Conservative". A lot of people here claim that Western values or Western Civilization or Capitalism are all synonymous with what they claim to be "Conservative".

So narrowly defined, Conservatism is a strict adherence to Capitalistic principles, with a weird sometimes racial/sometimes cultural component definition of European genetic/values supremacy and purity, coupled with a disdain for homosexuality/transgenderism, etc.

So one begins to wonder exactly what is a Western value or what is Western Civilization?

1. Is homosexuality a Western Value? Is it "Conservative"? Especially seeing that other societies outside of what we consider to be the "West" have an absolute disdain for homosexuality?

Here is where homosexuality is outlawed. None of these nations can be considered in the "West" or if you are using a definition, one would not traditionally make the claim these nations were "Western".

Please note that almost every nation within Europe and the Americas has legalized homosexuality.

2. Is it Conservative or Western to be culturally diverse or to not be culturally diverse? Of course, this is the only true measure of diversity. But most "supposed" Conservatives at GaG are not concerned about culture. They are concerned about race. So I will get to that in a moment. Here is the list of the most culturally diverse nations. The first clearly Western nation on this list is Canada, and they are 60th.

Rank Country Score
1 Papua New Guinea 1.000
2 Tanzania 0.953
3 Congo 0.933
4 Uganda 0.930
5 Liberia 0.899
6 Cameroon 0.887
7 Togo 0.883
8 South Africa 0.880
9 Congo 0.878
10 Madagascar 0.861

https://www.atlasandboots.com/worlds-most-diverse-country/

The methodology for making these determinations is fully explained there. They use two studies one of ethnic group membership coupled with some standard for determining race. They make the claim that it is objective, which is silly. But anyway.

3. So now onto the GaG version of diversity, race. So is it Western to be racially diverse or not be racially diverse. Let's look at the most racially diverse nations;

1. United States
2. Brazil
3. Colombia
4. Canada
5. Panama
6. Trinidad And Tobago
7. Guyana
8. Suriname
9. Belize

In the top ten there isn't another nation that could be considered to be "Westernized". It is just the U.S. and Canada, despite all the whining over the Muslim invasion of Europe. But the weirdest thing here is that in classic race theory, Arabs are "White". And many here at GaG consider themselves to be "White". . .as an example;

Why Europeans think Arabs are brown?

Do you consider people from North Africa and the Middle East to be "White" by race only?

Why do Europeans are called as Caucasians although most Northern Middle Easterns have more Caucasian DNA than almost all Europeans?

4. When it comes to free markets and capitalism, this maybe the only place where GaG comes close to reflecting real world beliefs. But still, the U.S. only comes in 12th. The list comes from the Heritage Foundation.

1. Hong Kong

2 Singapore

3. New Zealand

4. Switzerland

5. Australia

6. Ireland

7. United Kingdom

8. Canada

9. UAE

10. Taiwan

5. I thought our good friends at the Cato Institute would be a good source for determining the list for this next standard. Is it Conservative or not Conservative to have a free and open society? Well let's look at what the Cato Institute has found;

Of course the darker colors represent the nations with the highest "freedom" index in terms of politics, identity, relationships, movement, economics, etc.

At GaG, this is one of the weirdest standards, since the answer to that question is dependent like all of the questions in this take. . .on the political argument you are making.

And that is the point I am asserting with each of these observations. If you are trying to make the claim that being free and open is a good thing, then it is a Conservative or Western value at GaG. If you are trying to make the claim that too much freedom and being too open can cause chaos and disruption, it is not a Conservative or Western value. The argument is purely a political one. It isn't based upon objective definition for what is free, capitalistic, or even conservative.

What should be considered to be Western are the qualities that are associated with what we consider to be Western Civilization. As you can see, that means;

1. A respect for individual liberty, rights and freedoms. But most at GaG have no respect for an individual's rights and freedoms actually.

2. Free market capitalism, although many other nations around the world practice it. And they are better practitioners than nations we consider to be Western.

3. Racial/Cultural diversity, while "tolerated" is not something that is essential or even a major factor in the maintenance of Western states, since most don't value it. I have pointed this out repeatedly when it comes to Europe. But some folks enjoy living their fantasies.

4. Western nations respect the rule of law. Though many in GaG would like to dispense with it in favor of mob rule.

5. Freedom of expression is a staple of Western nations.

But the point of this "take" is the definition of what it means to be "Western" is not subject to the political aspirations of the folks at GaG. It is clearly defined by what Western societies do and what they value.

[The_Underground_Man]

The educated but extremely simplified answer would be the Greco-Roman legacy with its emphasis on democracy, division of power, and individual liberty. This would also account for logic and certain philosophical ideas that are derived from Aristotle and Plato down to Aquinas and Newton. While it does not mean much to anyone outside of academia, the West gave birth to analytical philosophy and is actually the only civilization to produce a philosophical system that is directly opposed to modernism (natural law theory, counter-Reformation, etc). For that matter, we also produced modernism itself - the Enlightenment, egalitarianism, idea of progress etc. Another academic but relevant point is linguistics - that is, our languages which tell the tale of Roman and Greek conquests. Finally, though there are certainly other points, Christianity or Judeo-Christian culture literally gave birth to the idea of a unified European identity and still shapes our culture today even in regards to secular affairs. For example, most marriages are still monogamous, and our holidays are derived from Christian religious festivals, along with certain moral ideals such as nonviolence or turning the other cheek. Some individuals would argue that the "Faustian Spirit" is really the defining Western value, but generally this idea kind of borders on racism, though there may be some bit of truth to it. In essence, the West may have been the only civilization to never truly be content. That is, we were always searching for something more, always innovating, and taking on some other challenge not because we needed to but because it was a challenge to be had.

[RolandCuthbert]

I concede these "principles" of egalitarianism, individual liberty, etc. were born in the West. But I do not agree that these principles were thought to be universal.

The unified European identity "White", was created outside of Europe. Its creation in America were solely for political and social concerns.

Also, there are many pagan rituals, traditions, etc. that have been passed down from specific older cultures that people simply assume are Christian in nature. Christmas, Halloween, Easter, etc. all have at least some Pagan inspiration in the nature of their celebration.

But I agree with the "spirit" of your post. My purpose in creating this thread is to address this constant confusion being sown about supposed "Western values".

[Wowgirl30q]

Was a kick ass answer

[curiousnorway]

When people are talking of Western values they're often thinking of such things as freedom speech, democracy and capitalism. Other values may be supporting feminism and LGBT+'s rights. There's still other countries that's none Western that have these values, but since it's most common in the Western world, therefor it's considered Western values.

Western values can both be liberal and conservative. In the US for instance both liberal and conservative values are equally much talked about, while in Scandinavian countries when talking of Western values they're often referring to their own liberal and social-democratic values.

When people are thinking of conservatism they thinks of different things. It can be:

Politically right-wing: E. g. supporting the right to bear arm, capitalism, little government intervention in people's daily life like less welfare (Not free healthcare and education) and less taxes, strong military, death penalty and you've responsibility over yourself - so you've to work instead of be dependent on too much government welfare.

Religiously conservatism: Wanting to keep old religious traditions. E. g. holidays. But may also support old rules like e. g. fasting, praying, marriage etc.

Culturally conservatism: Wanting to keep the old culture and norms. E. g. keeping old traditions like celebrations, food, music etc. May also support gender roles, marriage rules etc.

Conservatism is basically about keeping the old values, norms, culture and politics, while liberals are open for new ideas.

[RolandCuthbert]

I am pretty certain that most here at GaG do not think Western values can contain what they define to be liberal ideology. Most simply believe that conservatism and Western values are one and the same.

[Ámayas_20]

Please before you rant about conservatism learn what a conservative is, this was honestly painful to read.

[RolandCuthbert]

Please read the take because you don't seem to understand how "conservatism" is defined in GaG as opposed to how it is defined outside of GaG.

Confusion about homosexual issues. Is being gay/lesbian a conservative or "liberal" value? ↗

"That's a liberal thing that they push for gay rights the Democrats not us Conservative Republicans "

[Ámayas_20]

Okay first of all a few people on this website doesn't affect anything, I read the take it's bullshit as are your definitions. It's actually painful.

[Ámayas_20]

@demonics You have no idea how I act of think, if you want to apologise and have a civilised conversation where I explain how wrong you are lets do it, if not leave.

[Ámayas_20]

Omg @demonics I thought you were talking to me not him lmao, sorry you're actually pretty correct and again I'm so sorry.

[Wowgirl30q]

He's a good dude 😎
HisTake so not wrong or right
But his period. People answer Mytakes like questions Jack's me up personally. Because it wasn't asking so what is happening now.. straight up bitching is all usually 😂

[RolandCuthbert]

@demonics

Sorry dude, I was talking to someone here and you went sideways on us. If you have something to say, you can just address me. If it is topical, I will respond. If it isn't, I will just delete it.

We can't discuss everything under the sun in my thread. Much less your delusions.

[Adelphïné]

I wish we could all just try to get along, whether we're from the "west", "east", etc. :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
🌟 🌟 Free book: "Woman to Women" @ smashwords. com/books/view/938595 🌟 🌟

[RolandCuthbert]

@Adelphïné Me too. But I think at GaG, getting along is supposed to be a liberal value. And very few here want to be seen as being liberal.

Apparently that is a bad thing.\

[SuperManiac]

I'd place values like individualism, liberty, and private property rights towards the top as far as Western values (although with some bias since they are the most influential and relevant to me personally).

As for why "conservatives" might not necessarily always adhere to such values, the term "conservative" is even more nebulous these days by US standards than "liberal" (which isn't really "liberal" so much as progressive). They might be motivated by nationalism, imperialism, religious values, free markets (these days a lot of people who are true liberals in favor of laissez-faire would be considered "conservative"), etc. But it was never a very precise term.

Yet many of those who call themselves "liberal" in the US today hardly adhere to Western values or even liberalism. I'd say the term "liberal" is more confusing in the US today than "conservative" (which was never so precise) if people who call themselves liberal support policies like minimum wage, progressive tax policies, a large welfare state, affirmative action based on group identity, etc.

>> 1. A respect for individual liberty, rights and freedoms. But most at GaG have no respect for an individual's rights and freedoms actually.

Part of it might be due to how people on GaG come from across the world. The term "conservative" is going to vary wildly not just from one individual to the next, but even more wildly from one individual from one country to another.

Besides that, a person who truly respects those things would be a "liberal", but not liberal as it is thought of in the US (by American standards, such a person might be called a "classical liberal" or "libertarian").

>> 2. Free market capitalism, although many other nations around the world practice it. And they are better practitioners than nations we consider to be Western.

If we're talking places like Singapore and Hong Kong (the freest markets in the world), their capitalist systems were predominantly established by British rule. Hong Kong, in particular, as a barren island with few natural resources except its ports, became a laboratory for the freest market in the entire world. That's a British contribution, not Chinese, and for both countries.

>> 3. So now onto the GaG version of diversity, race. So is it Western to be racially diverse or not be racially diverse.

That tends to be a function of economic prosperity and geography more than the values of its people.

>> 4. Western nations respect the rule of law. Though many in GaG would like to dispense with it in favor of mob rule.

I think that tends to relate to corruption. More corrupt nations tend to pass more laws (and likewise more laws tend to fuel corruption and an underground economy), while corruption, and its perception of it, tends to cause fewer citizens to abide by laws in exchange.

>> But the point of this "take" is the definition of what it means to be "Western" is not subject to the political aspirations of the folks at GaG.

That's a curious observation I make as well but of people of all sides of the spectrum. Some of it is probably due to existing policies in place. For example, some libertarians are against open borders which seem to contradict ideas of liberty for all. But the ones who are against it are often against it because of welfare policies in place, which also violate liberty.

Another might be due to a perverse interpretation of policies, like those who support minimum wage might not see it as a violation of liberty to force workers to charge more for their services even if it means having their full-time benefits cut in favor of part-time work or being unemployed for lengthy periods of time.

[RolandCuthbert]

I'd say the term "liberal" is more confusing in the US today than "conservative"

I think the problem is that most only seem to know how to define liberalism in terms of what they consider to not be "conservative". So that makes for a messy definition.

1. Part of it might be due to how people on GaG come from across the world.

Absolutely not true. The most vocal here are from the U. S. and they certainly do not observe these freedoms and rights.

2. If we're talking places like Singapore and Hong Kong (the freest markets in the world), their capitalist systems were predominantly established by British rule.

Why does that matter? They practice capitalism better than the original practitioners.

3. That tends to be a function of economic prosperity and geography more than the values of its people.

I am not understanding your response. The point was about this being a Western value or concern. I just wanted to point out that it was not. It is a common misconception that somehow this is some universal goal.

4. And again, just pointing out how hypocritical many here can be when it comes to talking about these terms that are pretty well defined outside of the forum.

Thanks for your response.

[SuperManiac]

Cheers.

>> Absolutely not true. The most vocal here are from the U. S. and they certainly do not observe these freedoms and rights.

I see. I was focused too much on economic freedom, I think. I tend to think where people who identify as conservative tend to move away from liberty is perhaps when it conflicts with their religious values, and mostly in areas relating to personal freedom (drugs, abortion, protectionist policies, though the second is at least complicated when it comes to the perception of rights if people view a fetus as having rights). It's difficult to find people who consistently uphold such values on any side. One of the appeals to me about libertarians is that they are fairly consistent there since the philosophy behind it puts freedom as the highest virtue.

>> Why does that matter? They practice capitalism better than the original practitioners.

Perhaps I failed to understand your original point since the systems in both cases were established by the British. As to why they don't move away from economic freedom as is the case of the US, for example, I have to study more on Singapore's constitution for Hong Kong's explicitly forbids socialist policies in their constitution with a very strong focus on non-intervention.

It is something I wish the US would adopt since I agree that it is strange for the so-called land of freedom to not even rank in the top ten as far as freedom indices go.

>> I am not understanding your response. The point was about this being a Western value or concern. I just wanted to point out that it was not. It is a common misconception that somehow this is some universal goal.

I see. I wouldn't think it's a Western value, per se, in the sense of trying to maximize but cultural/racial diversity, but I think a lot of the values like individualism and inalienable human rights function as a way to largely prevent the tyranny of the majority from trampling over the rights of minorities...

[SuperManiac]

... and I think that's fundamentally there to try to allow for a diverse population (not just in terms of ethnicity but also diverse religious beliefs and so forth) to co-exist with each other without one group wielding the bludgeon of the state to persecute another.

>> And again, just pointing out how hypocritical many here can be when it comes to talking about these terms that are pretty well defined outside of the forum.

Yes, that's a general phenomenon I see across the aisle though and even starting with the founders of the US. They focused on liberty and individualism and inalienable rights but had conscription (the draft), slavery, and women weren't allowed to vote. So people were arguably hypocritical even from the very founding of the nation.

One of the benefits of Hong Kong is that it has a much newer constitution with the added hindsight of seeing how even governments in the West tend to squander freedom. So I think they were able to learn from that and impose much tighter restrictions on what the government can and can't do to keep it acting more consistently with these types of Western values.

[mattdzz]

Western values, as per the writers of the Enlightenment are multi-faceted. To put it plainly, Western values are Classically Liberal (see John Locke), which recognize the individual as the most important unit, while the state is created as per social contract to best secure safety for those within the territory, and permitting them to have the greatest degree of freedom possible to express themselves.
So, free expression would be a preeminent feature, but this expression makes it clear that most people cannot agree on "first principles" (i. e. what is moral, good, priority); thus, a state organization needs to stop these people from killing each other, which again limits on certain "freedoms."
Classical Liberalism demarcates into both Modus vivendi (Libertarianism) and Progressive Liberalism (an active state to "perfect" society), but both again point to the individual as the most important feature, which sharply contrasts with the group identity politics of every other culture. This begets Civic Nationalism (distinct from Ethnic Nationalism) in that anyone can ascribe to certain beliefs and practices in order to become part of the society.
Finally, in terms of economics, capitalism (which is in no way tied to conservatism, and I don't know how you made that link... it was stupid) relies on private property, which is also a feature of Western Values. Take the "Protestant Ethic" (a la Max Weber) and you have a society that sees hard work as intrinsically valuable, believes in private property and the preeminence of the individual, while balancing the safety of the society as a whole (which is semi-permeable) and you have WESTERN VALUES.

[GuidoThePizzaMaker]

Great take! I hate the term"conservative" because its means so many different things it has become meaningless. In the USA it basically means Neo-Liberalist, social libertarian, closet racist/fag! Which most so called "conservatives" aren't. They are in fact Traditionalists (this is to a certain extent of course)

I always prefer the term America First (but I am talking about the 1930s america first, not the Trump corruption/ deception) Which is basically anti-war, pro-labor, pro traditional roles.

When people talk about western civilization, they should be referring to Greek Philosophy, Roman State-craft, German Engineering, and Christian Morality.
But right now, the modern-post-modern west, is essentially, Globalism, Libertarian, Social justice, and sexual liberation.

Free market capitalism + Usury, is the most diabolical economic system ever created, it always fails, because it seeks to maximize the capital of a few to the detriment of the laborer. Americans benefit from being in the Empire, just wait until it fails. It will be just like the empires that came before it. Gone forever. Thats what we get from choosing mammon over God.

[MannySimms]

Conservative. That's upholding the values of those that started an acceptable lifestyle. Take the USA; the founders insisted there be NOTHING addressing the rights of commoners in the Constitution. Except for George Mason. Americans have HIM to thank even though few know who he was.
Attitudes back them were far different than those held by most nowadays, especially on equality. Slavery is a conservative institution. Same with the inequality of women.
So, classic conservatism has slowly been corrupted to what ever Americans have now. Thank God progressive folks (like Lincoln) held some sway. Conservatism is a resistance to change and there's NO place for it in modern society.

Now, "western". Few people in the west eat puppies or mutilate women. Societies with certain cultural facets are labeled as unacceptable (by the west). Some peoples cannot govern themselves as illustrated by the Palestinians and many Africans, like the Congolese. What's to be done about them?

[esotericstory]

Arabs are Semites just like Jews are. Arabs are not Caucasians. Europeans have historically never identified as white, its an American creation.

Secondly what constitutes as conservative in Europe is the continuation and development of ideas prior to the French Revolution and its equivalent revolutions in other countries, and whats liberal are the experimental newly innovated ideas from during and after the French Revolution.

"A respect for individual liberty, rights and freedoms." Thats individualism, and its emerged from the Enlightenment Era liberal intellectuals. Not conservative in Europe, maybe in the US.

"2. Free market capitalism" Nope, no free markets in Europe, not during Communist/Fascist times, not prior to it, not during Roman Empire times, not during the Feudal system and not during current EU times either.

"3. Racial/Cultural diversity" Most Europeans today are still the same Europeans that settled the lands here 5000 years ago. We have almost all descended from Indo-Europeans with exczptions of the Basque and some Finnish people, Hungarians too. All our languages take the same Indo-European root, our pagan religions and values as well.

I will now explain to you what is truly western in the European sense.

1. Patriotism. Coming from Greek patris, Latin patria, meaning love for the fatherland, land of ancestors.
2. Respect for women/women's rights. Women's rights are a European invention. In pagan societies women always had special status in Europe, less so during Christian times.
3. Chivalry/equites/cataphract/mannerbund. The equivalents of knighthood and nobility in ancient and medieval Europe. An institution of loyalty sworn to a lord in return for martial training and education, gives exemplary function in society for the men who partake in it.
4. Cultural developments influenced by Greco-Roman foundations.

What the US is to me is the wild west, Europe is the moderate west. Similarly the middle east is not the far east.

[rjroy3]

It's good to separate the Ideals/Values from the strict adherence to those principles. Just because we have our principles doesn't mean we live up to those ideals. By and large Western Value's are holding these views in high regard:

- Reason
- Religious Freedom/Tolerance
- Universal Human Rights
- Everyone has a right to live free (anti slavery)

I'm not sure I'd agree to say that anyone would say Conservatism is a western value, but Conservatives do have western values. As do you and pretty much anyone that takes part in Western Civilization and wishes to maintain it. Terrorists who want to tear it all down don't share those values. They want to subjugate others. They generally don't believe in religious freedom, nor that everyone should have the same rights.

[rjroy3]

Self Made Democracy is another value I would say. We (Western countries) don't all agree on which form of democracy is best, but we do all believe in it's value.

[RolandCuthbert]

Hmmm. . . I need some time to digest this post.

Thanks for responding.

[turd_of_warning]

Western Values = Masculinity = Crying hard when an old church on the other side of the world burns

[RolandCuthbert]

Haha!!!

Okay, that was good one.

[turd_of_warning]

Cheers :) Very interesting Take

[RolandCuthbert]

Thanks Brother!

[Wowgirl30q]

Testosterone=Masculinity = Backbone= Boundaries=Action= Men

Estrogen=Feminine =Feelings=Bitching=Nothing=Feminist

[Wowgirl30q]

Now who's going to bitch🤸

[RolandCuthbert]

@Wowgirl30q Yeah, not really certain that there are many guys at GaG that resemble that first description.

Did you ever comment on my old "take"? Isn't it incredible that so many men here challenged me on even attempting to define masculine traits?

What Are Masculine Traits? ↗

[Wowgirl30q]

I've counted 7
And also you😁 now sir🤝

[Wowgirl30q]

I liked it was a well played? Neighbor/better mytake of my masculinity ones😄

[Wowgirl30q]

I don't hate men 😂
I have a problem with some more "submissive" behaviors (will call them) and such but I ask for nothing I can't do myself.
Have a backbone
Have a job
Have a toleration point
Have a social and gender understanding for yourself

I'll shut up..
But don't give me a inch

[RolandCuthbert]

@Wowgirl30q Yeah, I have read some of your stuff. And I agree with a lot of what you post. I think a lot of young guys at GaG don't realize they own their definition of themselves.

Well, maybe it is also they don't want that responsibility?

I don't know.

But maybe that is why so many of them spend so much time on youtube or scouring the internet, looking for the guy who will give them the answer for how to be a man. Maybe that's why they blame women, or feminism or this group or liberals or that group. . .

They feel that somehow this shifting of the blame will make them feel better about their lack of self-esteem and confidence.

Well. . . just my little two cents. I am going to create a take about it in a day or two.

Feel free to join.

[Wowgirl30q]

Something happened to men 30-35 years ago? I can't set the samples to a pattern because I can't remember masculinity pevit points past the 90s? Something around 85-90 and men?

[Wowgirl30q]

I'm asking all guys older then myself what they rember first being a feminine but excepted
1 ear rings
2 briter colors and loser fitting clothes
3 Boybands/Elton John/Right side Fred (I'm too sexy)
What about you sir?

[Wowgirl30q]

I feel Boy bands are a child of the Jackson 5 and Elton John.. I blame accountability and group thinking (NKOTB) (Backstreet Boys) pummmmm down hill slope for testosterone. Blame shifting 😉

[RolandCuthbert]

@Wowgirl30q Hmmm. . . perhaps. I dunno. In the 90s, I thought these were still okay. I mean, I went through some of this myself. I thought women were all evil and were teasing all the good men and giving themselves to all the bad ones.

I was convinced I was going to be alone for life, etc. But then I stopped being an idiot and I started dating the women who actually wanted to date me. Then it became obvious that I needed to work on myself, built my self-esteem, learn how to talk to women and become more social.

But with this crowd, they really devolve. They get this level of no hope and all bitterness. You can't tell them anything. You can't tell them to work on their confidence. You can't tell them to dress better. It is just insane.

[RolandCuthbert]

@Wowgirl30q Haha! The Backstreet boys.

LOLx10!!

[Wowgirl30q]

Good times🤸

[Wowgirl30q]

So you agree with the group thinking?

[RolandCuthbert]

@Wowgirl30q I only agree that men need to figure out how to like themselves again. We need to define what we think is masculine and start admiring ourselves for being masculine. Because this whole issue of needing women to play a certain role. . . so that we can feel better about ourselves won't work. Because women are not so inclined to play that role for a man. . . who isn't confident in himself.

[Wowgirl30q]

Fair enough 😀

[Anonymous]

Conservatism vs liberalism is a moral difference, not economic.

Conservatives like to have a society with a defined moral code. Liberals are against moral codes.

To sum it up, democrats want to control your money and Republicans want to control your morality. Totalitarians want to control it all, and libertarians want you to be able to control yourself.

[RolandCuthbert]

Yeah, so liberals are not Western. And Conservatives are?

That's GaG nuttiness for you.

[Wowgirl30q]

Never bring a liberal to a gun fight🤦

[Opinion Owner]

What are you talking about? Conservative and western are two completely different concepts. I don't understand how you got them so tangled up in your mind. Buddhists are conservative because they believe in a strict moral code, but they're not western. Liberal democrats are western, but they don't believe in having a strict moral code. Communists can be eastern or western, but all of them are totalitarian because they want control of everything.

I'll give you a brain twister. I'm an independent who's western and personally conservative, but politically I'm classically liberal. What does that mean to you?

[RolandCuthbert]

So if these are two different concepts tell me what is "Western"? And how is being Western different than being Conservative?

[Opinion Owner]

Western culture has a distinct set of related laws, traditions, and ethics. The United States was founded on the principle of "live and let live", otherwise known as liberty, but we also have a conservative western faction that believes in a more religion-based moral code.

Islam is conservative, but definitely not western. They don't have the same laws, traditions, or ethics, but they definitely believe in a strict moral code. They have honor killings, execution for homosexuality, and even strict laws on dress code.

Western, eastern, middle-eastern has nothing to do with conservative, libertarian, and liberal. You can be any mix of the first and second lists: western liberal, eastern conservative, middle-eastern liberal, whatever.

[RolandCuthbert]

Cool. Just wanted to make certain we were on the same page. I wasn't sure from that first post. Outside of the forum, Western values are defined that way. On this I agree.

[Wowgirl30q]

Good, good job I would love you to do a smaller sourced one too
👍👍👍 Maybe by state or regional

[RolandCuthbert]

Why thank you! Perhaps in the future. But I really want to do a take on this emerging culture of very lonely, bitter, hurt, and confused young men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9mRZh43a3M

I mean my "ex" has cost me hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars. If anyone has anything to be bitter about, its me. These guys are getting mad because they can't get laid?

[Wowgirl30q]

I've never seen you attack a female 1st. You wait for them to put themselves in a man's position. I see this and thank you for this. I respect a reaction not a attack

[Wowgirl30q]

@RolandCuthbert
Thank you formally 😃🌹

[Shezadi]

Is this a question or an article?
All I know is English values are about being posh, classy and well-mannered.

[RolandCuthbert]

It is a question. And are you saying being Western is synonymous with being "English"/British?

[Shezadi]

I was just sharing my observation.

[RolandCuthbert]

And I asked a question about that observation. It is a simple question. No malice intended.

Do you think being Western is synonymous with being "English"/British?

[Shezadi]

The English culture is the epitome for an ideal western culture. English culture is more superior in the western world and it is called ideal.

[RolandCuthbert]

"The English culture is the epitome for an ideal western culture. English culture is more superior in the western world and it is called ideal. "

Hmmm. . . interesting.

Thanks for sharing that.

[Shezadi]

I didn't mean to put other countries of Europe down but you kept asking the question so I gave an honest answer.

[RolandCuthbert]

I am not European. So I don't have a dog in that fight. I have heard this sentiment before. There used to be a phrase, "The sun does not set on the English Empire". Because at one point in the Age of Imperialism the English had holdings all over the globe.

Some people feel that makes their culture superior to all others.

I don't know if you consider yourself English or what, but it is an interesting sentiment. It is always interesting when people make comparisons of different cultures to arrive at conclusions about which is one is better than all others.

[Shezadi]

I am British Pakistani but I believe English people are better than Pakistanis when it comes to manners, discipline and feminism.

[Shezadi]

Our Pakistani cricketers and actors always got more love in India than they did in Pakistan. Indian host called Kapil Sharma invited Shoaib Akhtar and Waseem Akhtar on this show. Even Shahid Afridi the former Pakistani captain said he got more love in India. As a result, my Pakistani media made a big fuss about that statement. When I saw the press conference of Pakistani cricket captain called Sarfaraz Ahmed, I saw positive comments from Indians defending his English and praising his personality. On the other hand, my Pakistan banned a Bollywood film about an Indian cricketers called MS Dhoni and they even banned Raees, where Pakistani actress Mahira Khan worked with Bollywood actor SRK. This comparison says a lot.

[Celtero]

What're you on about this time?

Seems like you're trying to own the Trumtards... and in the process of that you just obscure your point.

[RolandCuthbert]

Nah. I am trying to make a point about how Conservatism is defined within GaG as opposed to how it is defined in reality.

So again, what are "Western" values? Do you know? Have you ever thought about it beyond youtube? You know, like in real life in the discussions and conversations you have with like. . .

real people.

[Celtero]

Western values can be anything at this point. If you're specifically talking about traditional Western values most of those are tied to Christianity.

You really can't get a straight definition of Conservatism or Liberalism on this site, and to think every person on the right here has the same values is painting in very broad strokes.

[Anonymous]

Okay, so I don’t think anyone has any problem with your interpretation about what the west is. But it seems like only you pointing at something that people don’t actually believe and then shooting it down anyway.

[RolandCuthbert]

Dude, outside of the forum, I admit. . . things work normally. Normally, we celebrate the free exchange of ideas the West offers. Normally, we understand that nations outside of the "West" are much more "Conservative", than nations in the West. They are much more restrictive. They are much more rigid in enforcing cultural norms and traditions.

But in GaG, there is a counter narrative, a different kind of physics and reality.

That is pure simple fact.

[Opinion Owner]

Well I've not experienced that and declaring it's a fact doesn't make it so.

[RolandCuthbert]

Well, seeing you are anonymous, it isn't like I need to pay much attention to you. You don't even have the courage to post as yourself.

I stated my views and really don't need or want to prove it to such a person.

[Opinion Owner]

As I've said many times before, I usually go anonymous and I don't see how that changes anything. It's just a weak excuse not to engage in discussion.

If I didn't go anonymous then you'd recognise me and make a bunch of assumptions about my position before even replying. I much prefer people coming in without preconceptions and speaking to a blank slate.

[RolandCuthbert]

No, it is not a weak excuse. It is simple cowardice to go anonymous. Because there is no audit trail about what you actually believe. People at GaG are incredibly hypocritical. And it is vital to point that out in debate. So many simply argue one view at one given time because it helps their political goals. Then they switch to a different view or tactic in another thread because it proves more effective.

Just like in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Freedom, democracy and equality are Western values. The belief that everyone should be able to vote and have equal rights are Western values. A separation of church and state are Western values. That doesn't mean they are wrong, of course. Maybe Western values are sometimes the best?

[Smegskull]

I would not conflate western with conservative. Western culture is the most liberal culture there is.

[RolandCuthbert]

Yeah. . . I mean of course if you look at things objectively and consider Western culture (s), civilization, etc. in context.

But the folks at GaG usually add an additional racial component. That's why it is non-"White" nations who have extremely conservative cultures are not really recognized as such.

Because somehow by virtue of just being non-"White" they are somehow. . ."liberal".

[Smegskull]

Yeah I think that is part of the American new liberal idea that diverse just means non-white and racism is prejudice+power etc, etc.
Redefining word definitions for political gain seeds confusion... Who would've guessed? 😂

[RolandCuthbert]

Oh the whole deal of race/racism is totally misunderstood. On that I agree. I started this thread because of the fruitcake conversation here at GaG about what is or is not Conservative.

Racism has always been defined as;

a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

And I would simply challenge anyone who tries to substitute a different definition.

As for my point, at GaG simply by being gay or non-"White" people believe you are liberal or conservative.

Confusion about homosexual issues. Is being gay/lesbian a conservative or "liberal" value? ↗

[Smegskull]

And I'd say believing that being non-white means you must be liberal is a belief that race is a primary determinant that in this case produces a moral superiority

[RolandCuthbert]

I don't understand the statement.

What does being non-"White" have to do with morality?

[Smegskull]

Nothing liberalism is a moral stance and they are attaching it to race not me.

[RolandCuthbert]

You know what Willie Nelson said about "they". If he knew who that sumbitch they was, he would have killed him a long time ago.

What does this have to do with Conservative/Western values?

Do you get what the take is about?

As for the weirdness that you feel you are inferior because a non-"White" person is morally superior to you, I can't help you with that.

Either you are trying to be a good person or you are not. Why would you care what anyone else says?

[Smegskull]

No I'm not talking about me I'm talking about the "progressive types at GaG", yes we have gone a bit off topic here (as we usually do Roland).

[Anonymous]

I think it's tolerance towards homosexuality and tolerance towards ethnic diversity that are considered "Western values." Not homosexuality or ethnic diversity themselves.

[RolandCuthbert]

Then why is it that homosexuality is accepted in the West more readily than in other parts of the globe?

In other places, homosexuals can be murdered without so much as an investigation?

[Opinion Owner]

Because that's pretty much the DEFINITION of TOLERANCE for homosexuality. Pretty much the lowest bar for tolerance is not murdering someone.

[RolandCuthbert]

Hmmm. . . that is an interesting perspective. And I guess I would have to agree. Tolerance is the lowest bar for acceptance. And not being violent towards someone is the lowest bar for tolerance.

I think we should create a take on that. It might be a teachable moment for some folks around here.

[Muhammad1999]

Western countries are controlled by laws while eastern countries mostly by culture and religion.

[RolandCuthbert]

Uhm, I don't know about all that. And, I was actually trying to get at this whole notion of cultural values. It would appear that people create these misleading narratives about what is or isn't "Western". . . coupled with what is or is not "Conservative".

But GaG is one of the most political forums I have ever been in. I just wanted to turn the lights on and shine some common sense onto the conversation.

[seth900]

Well I wouldn't agree with you. At least if you are speaking about Eastern Europe. Its long time ago Church is separated from state and controled by laws and not culture or religion.

[hugzy]

Let me present you with another point of view, based on sociological research done some time ago. The more secular a country is , the higher the standards of living , happiness and wellbeing...

[DakotaNorth]

Western value. Cowboy boots and a hat.

[RolandCuthbert]

Haha!

[hsjdidbeh]

I don't know what racial theory considers Arabs to be "white". Certainly not Gobineau. Hell, even Southern and Eastern Europeans weren't considered fully white to begin with.

[Anonymous]

This is a pretty modern phenomenon in the West. Just because Islamic countries don't like it doesn't mean it's not something that countries that are rooted in Judeo-Christian principles should accept. The New Testament is very clear on homosexuality.