Is It Fair For Trans Athletes to Compete?

[Anonymous]

This is a discussion about the fairness of trans women in sport. I have no desire to bash trans women. If you came here for that, your comments will be removed.

One of the biggest topics of discussions around sports these days has been, should we allow trans women, specifically, to compete in sports with biological women? There are trans athletes across many sporting events with a small number of schools and sporting organizations now allowing trans women to compete. I'm generalizing here, because there are so many organizations with different rules, but for the sake of this piece, it was recently announced that trans women who were entering into women's sporting events, no longer had to be on hormone therapy, just have to have identified and lived as a woman for at least 2 years prior to competing.

This is the point at which I was left scratching my head. We do not allow biological men to compete with women in a number of sports because there is a perceived advantage there and a potential danger to the women in that sport if you take size, strength and height of players into consideration. So how is it now that a biological man on no hormones that identifies now as a woman wouldn't have a potential advantage in said sport? What has changed to alter why it is we do not allow men to compete with women in the first place?

I find this to be unfair, which is the core for me in this, because in head to head sports where it would be woman against trans woman, like track events, weight lifting, swimming, etc, why shouldn't we then question the fairness of it when the two aren't on the same biological playing field? There are hundreds of rules stipulating what is fair and what is not, and this strikes me as a huge blow to the fairness of the sport.

Trans women have the right to feel and think and believe they are women, however, if you remain biologically/hormonally unaltered and you want to compete with other women, we have every right as biological women to question the fairness of it because your actions/ability/advantages may affect things like scholarships, admittance into college sports/schools, and ability to triumph in a sport for which the playing field has always been 1:1 for the better part of our lives. It is time that our voices as biological women are heard because if you are allowed to fight for your right to compete in sport as a trans woman, so too are we allowed to fight for our right to compete on a fair playing field.

[normalice]

It is a bit like asking "should we bomb russia?" I'm not a national security expert and so must confess i dont know. I am also not a sports fairness expert and so also must confess I don't know. Indeed, it seems the vast majority of opinions on both topics are by people who should really just confess they don't know.

That said, it kind of seems like we should be asking ourselves why we even have separate men's and women's leagues. But, again, it's not actually something we should be asking ourselves, it is a layman's question for the experts and they should be prepared to answer it.

THAT said, it's not really a question that the most pressing issue affecting the trans community is bullying and assault. It seems to me that we should all just ahead and concede the sports and surgery thing for now, go ahead and stick to traditional definitions, and "both sides" can then agree to work together to stop the bullying. Unfortunately, the side that purports to be just looking out for women in sports tends to be unable to take yes for an answer and either loses interest in the topic when bullying is brought up or gets really mad that sports might not continue to be the topic.

[sacrifices]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URz-RYEOaig

[normalice]

It is a bit of a pain to watch YouTube videos on this device. Can you summarize it?

[Hellodownthere]

Everything you said is spot on. And almost all men agree with you. But we have no voice in this matter. The wokesters just dismiss us as sexist and transphobic. I love women sports personally. Women tend to behave with more sportsmanship than do men if we're honest. There's very little trash talking, brawls, abuse of referees, and all the other shit that happens with too much testosterone. All that can be fun to watch, but it does get old. Women's sports are a different game and I enjoy watching it.
But I'm not gonna watch transgender women who are essentially men run over women roughshod because they have significant physical advantages and try and convince myself I'm watching something fair and equal. I ain't gonna do it. And neither are a lot of people. This will kill women's sports if it's permitted to continue.

[_pinkme]

Of course it isn’t fair. Transitioning gendered people should only complete against other transitioning gendered people.


That’s actually one of the major reasons I don’t support transitioning gendered people. It isn’t as if I believe they should be killed and or discriminated against, I just believe, for example, transitioning women should not be allowed to beat up defenseless women or compete in sport against women. Or even use our bathrooms


It will forever be wrong and I will never support it

[prettygirl99]

Agreed

[_pinkme]

@prettygirl99 I appreciate a person with common sense 😌

[KatherineJ]

I agree with everything you said. I have absolutely nothing against someone who wants to transition, but males DO have physical advantages. So I do think it’s definitely unfair to girls and women to be forced to accept biological men competing in women’s sports.

[Ghostluck]

Short answer? No, not even if they are on hormones.

Women are under fire right now and the few who have expressed their legit concerns over trans-women in women's sports have been told to pipe down and shut up. They are largely ignored by the political left media and if mentioned at all, it is only to bash their concerns rather than listen to them. The sad truth is, nobody is listening to the very women this affect, they are instead only listening to the trans-women and their affiliates while completely ignoring opposing views.

The fact of the matter is, no matter how much somebody born with male anatomy wills themselves to be a woman, they will always be genetically male. we can't change that. They have a right to feel any way they wish and they have a right to identify as anything they wish, what they do not have the right to do, is encroach upon the very people they wish to be.

If I were not native American but identified as one, I would still not be welcomed on to a reservation that has a rule of 1/16 or 1/8 blood to be a part of said tribe. I cannot force myself in to their community no matter how badly I wanted to be one of them. Using this same logic, a trans-woman should not be allowed to force themselves in to a sport where genetic women are being pushed aside to make room for them.

Even when taking hormones, that does not obliterate the obvious gap a genetic male has over a genetic female. Sure, it may close that gap considerably, but it does not stamp out the gap entirely... the genetic code is still there, the difference in muscle tissue is still there, the lung capacity is still there, the height difference still persists.

Sadly, saying what I just did will label you as transphobic. So pretty much any argument against trans-women in women's sports will get you ostracized. Tread carefully on the thin ice when it goes against anything LGBT. I have been told many times, anything you say that goes against LGBT makes you phobic and a bigot. So any argument you make, logical and factual or not, will be seen as such.

[MuddyMole]

No, it's not. Of course, it's also not fair that I can't be a pro basketball player, because I'm barely 6 foot tall. Sports (involving adults) aren't really about fairness.
It's a bit like the paralympics - the winner is likely to be the least severely disabled athlete who is still sufficiently disabled to meet the entry requirements for a particular class.

Ultimately, I guess market forces will determine what happens - after all, sports are first and foremost, an entertainment business. If the sports become less entertaining, they will lose fans, and that means losing money, which the governing bodies won't tolerate.

For individual athletes too, competing at a high level is expensive, and requires sponsorship and endorsement deals. If trans athletes are unpopular, they won't find sponsors, as being popular is more important than winning - Emma Raducanu (like Anna Kournikova before her) earns millions primarily because she is smoking hot, not because of her ranking (outside the top 10).

[Kiran_Yagami]

Isn't this what women and feminists have been fighting the past 2 decades to accomplish? Isn't that why "Kill all TERFs!" became a thing? The movement was purged of dissent to allow this to happen. So if it's what you all wanted, why the crying now? I saw where this was going nearly 10 years ago. It was so obvious then. Even Nostradamus dismissed it as "that's not a prophecy, it's a forgone conclusion". Now that it's here, why do you act all surprised? Why are you suddenly not ok with it? Why didn't you step in earlier when it might have made a difference? Now the monster is too big for you to contain. It has teeth you can't compete with. It is too heavily ingrained in our society. I didn't bother to speak up because this monster can't hurt me. No man will ever fear a trans-man in sport. No man will be bothered by a trans-man, or women pretending to be a man, in the men's shower room or bathroom. No one is trying to reclassify men as "conceiving people". So no why I haven't been bothered to say anything, but what about you? Why did you let it get to this point?

[bamesjond0069]

Men clearly have an advantage so therefore so do men pretending to be women.

I am not the tallest most monstrous man walking down the street, i do however run a good pace 3 to 5 miles on a regular basis, lift at the gym, play some sports and such. Well i had injured myself and during that time i completely stopped doing all exercise and maintaining my diet for over a year. I put on like 30lbs of pure fat. I met a girl who was a top college sports athlete, fitness physique, she gave me some motivation to go work out with her. At the gym i still out lifted her on every exercise even dropping my weights from my old levels to something easy, i also was able to run on the treadmill at about the same pace and distance as her she was ready to quit before i was and when we played her sport together (i hadn't played in over a decade and never was great at it) she was only slightly better, like it was very clear if i practiced 3x a week in a month id cream her easily.

This is not fair at all. Almost any male athlete of average capability with minimal training id be shocked if they couldnt beat 80+% of women specifically trained in a sport.

[Lliam]

Absolutely, positively not! I agree with your well written and comprehensive MyTake 100%.

Whether they are hormonally altered or not makes no difference. Biological men have a distinct advantage.

This is destroying the advancements women have made since Title IX was passed.

I oppose it 100% and I don't care if "trans"women athletes' feelings are hurt. What about the feelings of and lost opportunities for actual women?

Either a new category for "trans"women should be created or they should be allowed to compete against men. Actually, women should be allowed to compete against men if they want to, but not vice versa.

[YesIWouldLikeFries]

@Lliam "Either a new category for "trans"women should be created or they should be allowed to compete against men. Actually, women should be allowed to compete against men if they want to, but not vice versa."

What does it matter. They'll lose any competition where men have an advantage. So why would they waste their time?

If they lower the bar for women or trans like they did in the military then they've already lost.

You think the enemy will care if you're a strong independent woman? They'll shoot you just the same.

[Lliam]

@YesIWouldLikeFries. I didn't say anything about lowering the bar. I just said let them compete. If they lose, they lose. That's fair.

[YesIWouldLikeFries]

@Lliam But they'll complain its not fair no equality and then guess what. They'll lower the bar. Observe the world and you'll see what I mean.

[Lliam]

@YesIWouldLikeFries. How do you lower the bar in a competition like baseball, basketball, tennis, skiing, track and field or whatever? I think guys are just afraid of getting beat by girls, not that that would be likely to happen.

You're trying to use the military as an example. But it's totally different. Recruits aren't competing against each other, they're just trying to qualify for service.

[SweetFyter]

Not only is it not fair, it's completely absurd. I won't explain why I believe this because MOST people, I'm convinced, already know and agree with my understanding. And those who don't simply will NOT listen to fact.

I love to run and swim and ski (rare but I love it) but my male cousin who is just a few months younger than I am - well, I can't keep up. Even my little bro, who is three years younger and hasn't even hit puberty yet is as fast as I am so... yeah.

Fact. Girls and boys are different. "Inconvenient truth" for those not interested in truth.

[Femphile_xoxo]

If they transitioned before puberty and were on suppressants since then, yes, I think it's fine (Cause then they're essentially male/fem). But if they weren't or even worse, aren't on suppressants, I don't think so. I understand that as a trans athlete it can be discouraging to not participate in the league that you identify as but they could create a trans league or something. The whole reason women and men compete separately isn't a gender thing it's an anatomical thing... Trans folks could also play in mixed-gender sports.

[hahahmm]

How is this even a question. Of course it's not fair since men are biologically vastly superior when it comes to athletics. That's exactly why male & female sports were split up, literally eons ago.

The civilization you live in was not built by people worrying about everybody's feelings. You only have the freedom & luxury to think feelings are the #1 thing after eons of your ancestors made tough sacrifices and did things that didn't feel good & weren't always fun. Now a lot of people seem to think that we can maintain civilization by going against all of that and just focusing on what makes us feel good or makes the individual happy. No, that will lead to the destruction of everything you take for granted now. But hey... when 'Rome' collapses, you will suddenly be forced to be traditional or die so I guess it will all work out in the end.

[hahahmm]

And I don't mean someone will kill you for not being traditional. I mean you would starve to death as nobody would spend 2 seconds giving you anything you need/want unless you did exactly what they want. Life is a lot tougher when people have to prioritize.

[Bricealan]

In my humble opinion: Emphatically "NO"!

As a prior amateur athlete, in running/racing/ and as an amateur boxer, if I were a woman competing against "women" per-se the differential in muscle mass, muscle strength et cetera it is not a level playing field.

That said, I have competed in 10k races, and was beaten out in the last 100 meters by a small woman, who ALMOST beat a much stronger MALE runner than I. This was not just the 'average' woman runner. She would have been in an 'elevated' class, as a hard-core runner.
Overall, I think it grossly unfair for a trans-woman to compete against other biologically female competitors.

Of course, now, who the hell knows what is fair in this twisted society.

[PatKirby]

In so far as feminism continues to advance the destructive notion that it is Fair to bash, degrade and promote hatred of 50% of the world's population, namely men (misandry), then Yes - I am very much in favor of Trans Athletes winning (ahem, 'competing'). Now where do I make a donation to promote the future welfare of Trans Athletes who have been misunderstood for far too long. They're just regular people like you and me who are 'Equal' in Every respect.

[Moose304]

Humans are sexually dimorphic. This can not be changed by politics or wishful thinking. It is a scientific fact and CAN NOT be altered. Males are on average larger and have larger muscle mass. This means that the average male has an advantage going into ANYTHING physical. The average male will run faster, swim faster, and can lift a larger weight. Even if a male was injected with female hormones over the years all they will do is grow breasts but will still maintain that larger muscle mass. It is SCIENCE that determines how fair this is, not somebody's politics. Remember that term "follow the science?"

[bbear07]

no, women don't have the physical capability's men do. Women sports are going to be trashed if trans men are allowed to compete in them. It just isn't fair to the women who have spent so much of their time and energy training to get torn down by men who are physically capable of more than them.

[Kelsea7]

I believe it's completely unfair and just downright wrong. Their is a reason why they don't let REAL women and REAL men compete against each other because men after an unfair advantage against women. I'm NOT man bashing. But it just science. Men have testosterone which women do not have, testosterone give men strength. Men or FAKE women were born with testosterone and have lived with it so their bodies have adapted and changed with the influence of the hormone.

And just because someone thinks they are of the opposite sex does not mean they are. They can think whatever but that doesn't change science so I just think being trans is a load of bullshit.

Don't get me wrong I know some people out there are born with both female and male gentiles. And I understand that but they need to pick a gender before they hit puberty and go through that surgery.

[Anonymous]

No shit it’s unfair.
someone born in a biological male body competing against people born into a female biological body.
it is because of biological differences that male and female have two different categories in first place.
so not shit. Nothing fair about this at all.
its funny because if it was men who were at the disadvantage because of this.. there is no way they would stand for this.
but because it’s women players at the disadvantage.. well women are just expected to accept it. And If they get upset are labelled crazy feminists.
there’s not even a debate. Biological men who want to be females. Putting themselves in the female category.

[Jay3344]

I am able to admit that I have now great solutions to these issues. I want people to feel free to express themselves in good and comfortable ways. But with this issue I am out of my depths…a decision on the topic would have to be really considerate of what is fair. Because participation in a sports league and restricting competition has a painful history. I guess in some respects it comes down to how much the athletes want to compete and how much the audience wants to observe the competition as well…like said, out of my depths

[MysteriousDarkness]

In America take all the trans that are on HRT that want to play a sport then see how many want to play each type of sport. Then break it down to each individual sport or event. Summer Olympics has over 300 events and the winter Olympics has 109 events. Add the sports that are not in the Olympics where the men compete against men and women compete against women. I doubt you would have enough for some sports to even have a championship game, match, meet etc that if any are interested in that sport.

[BeenThereLovedIt]

The obvious solution is to let them create their own leagues and compete against each other.

But there would be little competition, no fans, and zero sponsors or media support.

Hell, even women don't support women's sports statistically compared to how many of them support men's sports. We (society) don't always practice what we preach.

[SociableGuy]

Without getting into all of the specific gender aspects/differences, I almost feel that going forward it may be a necessary to have a separate "league" or leagues for trans gender individuals. Similar to how there is a league for people with a disability and without, neither side gets offended by this notion, since the idea of the two competing just doesn't make sense. I'm not saying trans gender individuals are disabled, just saying differences may require different kinds of competition and rules. In a game of wheelchair tennis for example I can tell you very quickly that I would lose against anybody!

[mysterio101]

No, its messing up girls sports.
When i used to wrestle, i was a mediocre wrestler for national level, every month most of the wrestlers around the country would do train together in the squad trainings. We recently had a woman who was olympic bronze medallist at the 77kg class (this is even heavier than i am pre cut). She would join in for the mens sessions as none of the other women could really touch her, anyway, i was her partner for one sparring session and it was probably the easiest fight of the day, she wasn't very good, like for a man she could have maybe been a mediocre regional player. Big difference between men and women.

[MarkRet]

A trans athlete would most likely have an advantage over a woman. A trans might be 'female', but still has a man's muscle and strength. I'm not sure why a trans would want to compete with females. If he/she wins, what kind of a win is that? It's like a boxing match between a 20 year old against a 10 year old.